DU mentioned in Washington Post

[Jack_Dawson]

errr...at least our subject lines were.

Bloggers charge voter fraud, but evidence supports results

KERRY, DEMOCRATS DISCOUNT E-RUMORS

By Manuel Roig-Franzia and Dan Keating

Washington Post

MIAMI - The e-mail subject lines couldn't be any bigger and bolder: ``Another Stolen Election,'' ``Presidential election was hacked,'' ``Ohio Fraud.''

Even as Sen. John Kerry's campaign is steadfastly refusing to challenge the results of the presidential election, the bloggers and the mortally wounded party loyalists and the spreadsheet-wielding conspiracy theorists are filling the Internet with head-turning allegations.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/10152951.htm?1c

[NH_Here_We_Come]

1. Bush tools who claim no fraud.

Zzzzz...

[wryter2000]

2. Welcome to DU

:hi: NH

[NH_Here_We_Come]

8. Ready to kick ass!

don't even get me started on NH. Nader will clean house and repugs to beg for mercy.

[Pirate Smile]

12. I love all you new pissed off people. Welcome.

:hi:

[NH_Here_We_Come]

22. Tip of the iceberg.

Hell hath no fury like a Dem scorned.

[PATRICK]

3. Irony

Kerry has sunk his position below the radar and our in depth complaints and research is sunk beneath the research radar of WAPO.

Just where they want us to be until we go away.

So, you wonder why they bother making an empty report on the surface junk everyone knows? Is that doing their job? No, their job is to spin excuses and support to Bush, the All-Powerful and Wonderful. Can't be blamed for a trivial thing like truth and news.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. you mean below the nadar.

Kerry has sunk his position below the Nadar.

Though it would be a way to heal if Nadar actually comes back and saves Kerry's butt. LOL. Truth is, everybody has a role to play. This one can't be won by one man. If you look at what's happening, it's real democracy at play here. The people are moving this revolution. We're actually getting together and synchronizing a WAVE on the internet!

[Dark Secret]

24. When did the WP Go Down the Toilet? It Used to be Decent

Was it after the death of Katharine Graham?

[newyawker99]

26. Hi Voting_Integrity!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Stephanie]

4. If I f*cking see "conspiracy theorists" one more time I am going postal

WHAT is WRONG with counting the votes?

Did they not SEE the people waiting up 10 HOURS to vote on Election Day? Don't they find it ODD and DISTURBING that voting in America has come to that? Don't they think it could possibly be DELIBERATE? And doesn't that question lead to others? If they will try to discourage voting by making it nearly impossible to do, wouldn't they also use other methods?

[Jack_Dawson]

5. Couldn't Agree More

You must be smart like the rest of us.

:toast:

[milkyway]

7. Waiting 10 hrs. in repubican-run states. They had 4 years to prepare,

yet the repugs that run the federal government, Florida, and Ohio were so incompetent that they couldn't run the election properly?

Or maybe it happened just the way they planned.

[NH_Here_We_Come]

9. conspiracy this press corps

yeah, we are making these stories of lines up. Yeah, 20 million more voters this time around so lines should be longer, but 8-10 hours? Yeah, right...

[Straight Shooter]

16. That's the only ammunition they've got

So they keep reloading and firing. Pathetic, really.

I wrote Keith Olbermann and asked him to frame it as The Mystery Election of 2004, a whodunit.

BTW, here's the legal definition of conspiracy:
when people work together by agreement to commit an illegal act. A conspiracy may exist when the parties use legal means to accomplish an illegal result, or to use illegal means to achieve something that in itself is lawful. To prove a conspiracy those involved must have agreed to the plan before all the actions have been taken, or it is just a series of independent illegal acts. A conspiracy can be criminal for planning and carrying out illegal activities, or give rise to a civil lawsuit for damages by someone injured by the conspiracy. Thus, a scheme by a group of salesmen to sell used automobiles as new, could be prosecuted as a crime of fraud and conspiracy, and also allow a purchaser of an auto to sue for damages for the fraud and conspiracy.

Pretty boring description, isn't it? In a nutshell, people agreeing to do something illegal, no minimum number or maximum number required. Definition obtained from http://www.lawdictionary.com

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. And keep in mind...

you only need two for a "conspiracy."

[On the Road]

6. This is Why It's EXTREMELY Important

that we eliminate as many spurious arguments as possible and only pursue good arguments based on solid evidence. Unfortunately, many of the so-called proofs of fraud are nothing of the sort. Once news organizations like the Washington Post get it into their collective head that the accusations are bogus, it will be much harder to get legitimate stories in print.

The line should be: "Here's what we know for sure," even if it's not conclusive or large enough to change the outcome. The followup questions are: "Can the reported numbers be accurate" and "How many other instances are there yet to be uncovered?" Those are things that news organizations can follow up on it they believe it's a real story.

[tandem5]

17. Totally agree...

Problem is we don't have representatives to speak for us on large media outlets like other organizations or groups because "us" is not defined. It’s the media itself scrutinizing our every move and then extrapolating material they can use to advance their own take on the issue. So long as they refer to all this as the "blogoshere" how can we maintain a clear message?

[Eloriel]

20. Tell ya what

Why don't you join some investigative journalism team somewhere? Or start one of your own? That way YOU can sort out fact from fiction, reality from fantasy, tips from hoaxes, or whatever.

This is a discussion forum. We are NOT the Dem Leadership or a Dem think tank, and in fact most of them think we're nuts anyway and won't give us the time of day. We are NOT a news organization or journalists, tho IMO news organizations could do a LOT worse than pore over the threads here about all sorts of events, not the least of which is the 2004 Stolen Election.

THIS, in contrast, is a DISCUSSION FORUM. We discuss a lot of things, some with enormous merit and portent, some perfectly useless (see the Lounge, for example). It's not OUR job, and we aren't set up for it in any case, to do what you're proposing.

Here's where you can make your start at the big leagues. Get busy:

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

[On the Road]

25. All I'm Saying is We Should Use Our Judgment

There is incomplete evidence of fraud. It should be investigated. However, a lot of time is spent on red herrings and bogus arguments. (It's not only DU -- Greg Palast himself, who I admire, made a flat-out and completely unsupportable claim that Kerry had won Ohio simply because there were slightly more outstanding ballots than the official margin. That's ridiculous.)

A clear example has been posted here of a major outlet looking at DU discussion threads, finding them lacking, and concluding that there's nothing to the charges of fraud. That makes it much more difficult for legitimate arguments to succeed. We should pursue the issue in a way that helps, not hurts.

I HAVE spent time investigating the details, and hate to see solid leads get dismissed because a lot of people are going off hack-cocked and making claims based on their hears, not their heads.

[ChiciB1]

10. My Thoughts

I beginning to think stronger "conspiricy theories!" WHY do they keep saying the same thing! This could have happened in ALL the states across the Nation. That would account for a very large national total! We are just pin-pointing a "few" states right now!

I'm sick of hearing about the National Total! Screw that, how do we get the word out that we think it might be a NATIONAL THING??? Three million votes in all of the states is NOTHING!! I live in one of the most REPUKE Counties in Florida and while campaigning I thought we were going to take the County. Uh, that county would be SARASOTA County... home of Cruella, Katherine Harris! I stood on corners, went to meet-ups, registered voters and anything else I could. It was widely felt that Cruella was going down!! I had Republicans coming up to me telling me THEY were voting for Kerry/Edwards this time and not on a small scale!!

We had 2 Dmocratic Headquarters in Sarasota alone!! And several Youth Groups organized on their own!! So something really stinks and I'm NOT QUITTING!

[Jack_Dawson]

13. Something Really Stinks Alright...

like huge discrepancies between normally rock-solid exit polls and "actual number" in BBV states. I'm sure Kerry DID take Sarasota County. And many others.

[althecat]

14. I have been trying to compile some personal experiences

ChiciB,

My thoughts exactly - from the outset. So you will like this I expect..

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00124.htm#4

I have been trying to compile some personal experiences from the battle lines so to speak. That is observations of the republican GOTV campaign from the ground.

If you tell us what you saw in Sarasota that would be helpful.

al

[PATRICK]

15. The look at the surface

Just as they did at Michael's Moore's physique, cap and haircut. They fear truths that lurk beneath anything. I wonder why?

OUR appearance we need not change for their catty pleasure, but we do need to do the job of making things clearer to searchers not sarcastically put off by "Internet buzz" "chat rooms" and "lefty web sites". It is hard for people not to see the media brand scornfully put on us while they look for what should a the current TOP priority in all we do.

We are made to be cavalier, but our impact is not as direct as Moore's film. Maybe it could be?

[Stephanie]

19. What stinks in Florida

Is JEB.

[ChiciB1]

23. TWO TIMES AROUND!!

Yes, me again who lives in Florida. And the word is... Jeb and George don't even particularly get along. BUT, Jeb needs him is he runs in 2008! Remember JEB, was the one THEY had picked in the FIRST place!

[Eloriel]

21. Good post -- the point has been made by another DUer

(sorry, don't remember who) that one place to pad Bush's numbers are in the strongholds for both Bush AND Kerry. As long as Kerry wins in his stronghold, who'd question even a larger percentage of votes for Bush than he would normally be expected to get?

And we've already seen the effect of padding numbers (if that's what they did and I'm convinced they did) even in safe Bush states -- it pumps up the popular vote so that fraud and "another stolen election" looks all the more improbable to the folks who run the NYT and WP and other news organizations whose job it is to validate the official story of everything.