John Kerry has not SURRENDERED!

[mzmolly]

http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/politics/index.ssf?/base/politics-1/1100164141194251.xml&storylist=politics#continue

Lawyers with John Kerry's presidential campaign are in Ohio on what they describe as a "fact-finding mission" following the Democrat's election loss to President Bush last week.

...

Dan Hoffheimer, the statewide counsel for the Kerry campaign, said they are not trying to challenge the election but are only carrying out Kerry's promise to make sure that all the votes in Ohio are counted.

...

Hoffheimer said the goal is to identify any voting problems and quell doubts about the legitimacy of the Ohio election being raised on the Internet.

He said the Kerry campaign has compiled a list of more than 30 questions for local election officials. They are asking about the number of absentee and provisional ballots, any reports of equipment malfunctions on election night and any ballots that still listed third-party challenger Ralph Nader as a candidate.

They are framing this issue perfectly. I am most encouraged! :toast:

JOHN KERRY IS STILL FIGHTING ... SMART!

[Pale_Rider]

1. Especially smart if all of Bush's ...

... lawyers have gone home!

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Who said taht only repukes learned from Nixon?

[auntAgonist]

3. His promise made is a promise kept. n/t

[Cary]

If only. . .

I have a hard time believing this is leading anywhere. I guess I can only wait and see.

[liberal N proud]

4. This is what they are telling the media!

But what is the real plan?

[Seabiscuit]

119. Why did they tell the media just the opposite on November 3:

that Kerry had sent all his lawyers packing after Kerry's concession speech?

Whey are they now suddenly telling the media over a week later that his lawyers are investigating vote counts in Ohio?

Why aren't they telling the media that Kerry's lawyers are investigating vote counts in other states like Florida and New Mexico?

What is one to believe???

[ClassWarrior]

126. Exactly.

Bush** and the Radical RW have benefited from media confusion for years. Now it's our turn.

NGU.

[Seabiscuit]

128. So how are we benefitting from this particular media confusion?

- if that's what it is.

Rather, I suspect Kerry really completely quit November 3 and sent all his lawyers home with all the reports, never denied by Kerry or his campaign people or the DNC, that he had done so were true.

I also suspect someone with Kerry's ear has either read internet sites like DU, or knows another insider who has, seen the outcry about it all and decided to creep back into Ohio to start with (to rally at least their most devoted fans).

Who knows what they're up to now?

I don't think the confusion is coming from the media, I think it's coming from Kerry and his people.

But isn't that so like Kerry? Because his public pronouncements were so nonsensical and so clearly absurd, who ever knew where he really stood on Iraq?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. Kerry is all about fighting

I wish people would lay off the man. Maybe he really thinks he cannot reverse the outcome of the election, but at the very leasthe will fight for the rights of people to have their votes counted.

[Triana]

15. I'm with you on that assessment, NewYorker...

....I think he's just doing what he said he'd do and has absolutely no expectation or intent of changing the outcome.

It'd be nice if that happened, but I seriously doubt it will. I DO want to see all this fraud, disenfranchisement, and Jim Crow shit exposed - whether it changes the outcome or not.

THIS IS about THE VERY CORE of our Democracy and that shit cannot be allowed to stand - unless we want to let them do it again next time - and the next, and the next.

They need to know that people are watching and people WILL REPORT LOUDLY AND CLEARLY when they see this sort of crap - whether anyone is to blame for deliberately doing it or not (and I believe a lot of 'anyones' are to blame for doing it deliberately and I want to see them in prison or at least have their credibility shattered)...

[rockedthevoteinMA]

23. okay so i have been thinking

have you all noticed how quiet EVERYONE is? No Sharpton, No Jackson, No Dean...these guys should be screaming about this - but they are sooo quiet, it's almost deafening. I realized this on Friday, before I even came across this website (which now I am addicted to!)

[Kansas Wyatt]

42. Strange after an election....

I thought that is was very odd that virtually nobody who campaigned for Kerry was anywhere on the news since the election. Even though a major battled was launched in Iraq, CNN's trusted Wesley Clark was nowhere to be found. James Carville is missing from CNN also, and Donna Brazille finally appeared yesterday claiming that Kerry was only down by 65,000 votes in Ohio. Which is very odd, since the vote count has steadily narrowed since the election count of around 150,000 votes Kerry was down by. Also, Bush was suppose to keep everyone in his administration before the election if he won, but now it's a question of who will possibly stay for another term.

All of the news clips of John Kerry after the election are not specific enough to determine if he was speaking as a leading Senator or as a President reaching out to his Party's leaders in Congress. I also cannot get past the news photo and film footage of Bush waiting with his family at the White House the night of the election. To me it looked like he was red in the face and like he had just been crying his eyes out. Nothing about this outcome makes any sense to me at all.

[illuminaughty]

121. Hey neighbor

I'm just down the street near Merriam/Shawnee. We had a stolen election meeting on Wed. the 10th at 63rd and SwopeParkway at the Public Library no less. About 60 or 70 people there.

We are in the process of organizing, but the agenda is much the same as here on DU. Massive e-mails to media etc. We are planning rallies and you should see some posters begin to appear on telephone poles.
Just to get the buzz going from the "Zombie nation" that thinks it's over and done with.

I know there are several people on here from Roeland Park. I'm always saying that this part of Kansas isn't very red.

[Generator]

65. Wrong about Jesse Jackson

I posted it a few days ago. He said Kerry had conceded too soon and that voter fraud looked probable.

It was my most "Here's your Democratic Voice."

It sure as hell ain't Bill Clinton.

And Dean has spoken since the election, about re-energizing the Dems or something.

Only thing that made me feel better was Jackson. I never knew how hard it was to vote in this country. I think voting is mostly a sham for the poor and miniorities who are tharwted and marginilized at every turn.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

66. oops sorry

MSM just hasn't been covering it, so it seems

[chelaque liberal]

70. I give. What is MSM? I assume one of the M's is media.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

78. mainstream media - did i get it wrong?

sorry new here

[99Pancakes]

80. mainstream media--correct

Don't give up! A quiet and thorough investigation leading to prosecution is better than a loud and abrasive one leading to nothing but a public flogging for Kerry & Friends. Chin Up!

[Helga Scow Stern]

6. Just as long as they are truly honest....

this needs to be watched carefully, so that we are not lied to. We owe that to ourselves.

[merh]

7. John Kerry is playing chess!

:toast:

[whalerider55]

14. wanna believe

but "quelling doubts"? doesn't exactly sound like fighting words to me. and every day *co consiolidates the impression they have a mandate, just like '00.

where exactly is the Kerry team? I know where some of the Lawyers are, but all i've heard from Team Kerry is how anxious he is to get back to the senate and kick bushs ass from there. Is there a command central, or a bunker somewhere that all the Kerry people have maps and phone banks.

not to be in the slightest bit a downer, but thus far, i have a sad feeling I (we, us) want this more than they do.

sheesh.

whalerider55

[mzmolly]

19. "quelling doubts" sounds like SMART words to me. In fact, I suggested

this specfific language to a member of the Campaign. However, I'm certain they came up with it on their own. ;)

[whalerider55]

35. mzmolly

all due respect, but the way i see it is that these guys have stolen the '00 election, there is clear evidence that the '02 election in FLorida (note Florida) was a dry run perfecting the practices employed nation-wide. They then stole this election, fully aware that they were doing it in broad daylight, subject to potential reaction and investigation. In the four years since ')), we still managed to allow them to prerserve and improve on a system that disenfranchizes people.

Knowing that, why bother approaching them in stealth. They made the rules, they have the keys to the little black boxes, and they are hard at work securing their illgotten booty as we speak.

I'm not at all suggesting we fold up, quite the opposite.
WHat we have here, Molly, is the old John Adams vs. Henry Wilson declaration of Indie redux. i say fight tooth and nail, because the shit has already hit the fan.

Sending lawyers to ohio two weeks after the elction to quell doubts as the basis for a strategy comprised of sneaking up on Karl ROve and James Baker is silly.

Sending lawyers, guns and money is a much better idea.

whalerider55

[mzmolly]

40. Simple ...

Kerry is in the Senate for four more years, he can't afford to go in "gunz a blazin'" unless we have proof.

Right now were in the "fact finding" portion of this investigation ...

Even I'm willing to admit they MIGHT have won legit like. If Kerry's team goes in screaming fraud and we come out with no PROOF of fraud, how do you suppose things in the Senate will go?

There's a smart way to approach this.

[99Pancakes]

81. Agree!

Let reason prevail!

[Cheswick2.0]

77. the DNC has already stated that "nothing will change the outcome of this

election" They said more people voted for Bush than Kerry. They have basically said the popular vote trumps the electoral college. Can they shoot themselves in the foot any more efectively?

[Chimpanzee]

83. We have to remember this is politics - and very risky politics at that

[coreystone]

36. Hey Bulldog! You've got it! Kerry's Gambit, now he starts ....

approaching the middle game!


:-)


:hi:

[bostonbabs]

120. I agree

...why show cards when you don't have to.Kerry is playing it real smart...I heard him say "and that is all I am going to say"....he is holding back....as he should be.

[senseandsensibility]

8. I'm afraid to get my hopes up

but this is definitely good news!:) Keep us posted if you hear anything else, please.

[genius]

9. There is a surrender unless he asks for a recount

A cursory count is meaningless. The results were changed.

[mzmolly]

11. This is a punch card state mostly. There are 93,000 ballots

cast where a vote for Prez was not counted.

Patience ...

[NJCher]

26. punch cards were corrupted by repukes, too

I heard about a major story that was supposed to break on this topic. Apparently the repukes (and this was in OH) managed to find a kind of paper that resulted in more chads than another type of paper. They got the paper sold into districts where they feared a Dem win. The story may not be 100 per cent correct because I'm going on memory but it was recounted to me by fellow DU poster Nancy Waterman.

Cher

[txindy]

33. They put old and/or problematic machines in those districts, too

In order to create spoiled punchcards. Charming folks. :eyes:

If I was running for office, I'd want to run on my own merits and not get elected because my party chose to resort to dirty tricks. If I didn't win it, I wouldn't want it.

[Chimpanzee]

85. But you're not a chimp, txindy

[txindy]

99. That's always nice to hear!

:P

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

38. Mmmmm, such a cute way to cheat!!

I love these kinds of cheats!

I'm compiling a list of the "wackiest cheats" and this sure beats the "disappearing ink" cheat that tops the list so far! Who needs man-in-the-middle-phoneline-re-routing-at-the-switch-to-cheat ;^) when you can just give people the "perfect" crappy paper!!

My money is on even wackier cheats coming to light ... As a metal-hatter, there's no tactic too wacky (or, sadly, too low) for cheaters to try!

All the best,
FULL_METAL_HAT

This is my computer. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My computer is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my computer is useless. Without my computer, I am useless. I must fire my computer true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My computer and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace. Amen.

[wrate]

34. It is situations like this that make the fact that PATIENCE is a VIRTUE

so evident. Especially with a December 12 deadline fast approaching.

[txindy]

20. A recount isn't possible, yet. They have to have an INITIAL count, first.

That's why everyone is so up-in-arms over Blackwell's decision to change the rules on the as-yet-uncounted provisional and absentee ballots in Ohio.

You cannot ask for a recount until the first count is done!! :eyes:

[mzmolly]

27. They smell a Blackwell rat as do I. He's scrapping to change the rules

for a reason.

[txindy]

31. Absolutely. No one changes the rules after the game is nearly over

Unless he's losing and desperate to cheat his way to victory.

Gee, co-chairman of the Bush campaign in Ohio AND SoS? Naw, no conflict of interest there! Keep moving! Nothing to see here!

ROFL!! I'm so glad they 'misunderestimate' us to this extent. :toast:

[silvershadow]

109. How is that possible? That is an outrage. No changing of the rules

should be allowed.

[txindy]

116. Bold, isn't he?

Every time I think Blackwell can't do anything more outrageous as Ohio SoS, he acts, again. Sheesh. :eyes: I hope Cobb and Badnarik's suit is able to force Blackwell to recuse himself from any recount. We'll see.

[yojon]

10. possible explanation

Well if the Dem Leadership returned to Ohio noisily demanding recounts and making a lot of fuss, it would likely provoke a reaction from the Repubs. Jim Baker would arise from his crypt, the brownshirts would storm the courthouse, etc etc. We saw this in Fla 4 years ago.

If I was JK or JE, I would be stealthy until I had something real good to announce.

Somehow the thought of this makes me less hopeless. That is a good thing.

[mzmolly]

16. I agree, we have to play this right.

:hi: Welcome to DU!

[wrate]

39. Well, its a big big risk they're taking. What if they do find something

but they cannot prove it or they just don't find anything? And they kept this efforts underground! Their base will not know about it or believe it if they do put word out about it after the deed. People will think they (DNC) caved in or that they're (DNC) spineless. No?

[lakeguy]

12. I guess I don't really believe Kerry would

quit. He just doesn't seem like that kind of guy. How do you work for the people for 20+ years, take a beating all summer long and then just quit amid suspition and doubt about the results. ESPECIALLY after what happened in 2000. If he, and the DNC, really did quit, we are all in some serious trouble!

[soundhead]

21. Agreed, his giving in did seem odd

I had built up this image of Kerry as an incredibly astute and intelligent fighter, who was not going to take the BushCo crap lying down. His hasty concession did seem uncharacteristic.

[HEAVYHEART]

50. Yup

That's why I'm having a hard time accepting that he just quit, just like that. Very uncharacteristic indeed.

[yojon]

29. Hope this is right

All Im thinking is that it would be strategically better for him to keep a low profile until he has something really big to announce.

[Straight Shooter]

13. I have never seen a prosecutor try a case while wearing boxing gloves

It may not look to some of us as if John Kerry is aggressively pursuing this matter, but my perception is that he knows what he is doing. Being in someone's face is not his style.

In the meantime, the bush mask is falling off in little pieces and he is revealing himself in a most alarming way. If Kerry prevails, especially if evidence is found of collusion on the part of bush and/or his close associates, it may well be that bush goes out with a whimper instead of a bang. Only his hard core supporters will bother to defend him.

[yojon]

I hope your are right

My fear is that we could have photos of bush pitchforking babies into the well - they would spin it 'Pitchforking those babies for national security' and he would use it to advantage.

Look at all the shit he has already gotten away with!

[whalerider55]

17. straight...

gotta disagree. with all of us across the nation so cyber-wired, with the blogosphere the primary source of real factual news, if there was anything the slightest bit beyond perfunctory happening here, i find it hard to believe there wouldn't be a whisper of it.

I'm listening.

whalerider55

[Straight Shooter]

93. The stakes are high, whalerider55

Patience is a virtue. I see damage control by the right wing.

I think of the Native Americans of long ago, who never left a trace as they hunted their prey. White men couldn't believe it was done, but they did it. Think of Rove and his minions as those clumsy white men, stumbling through their forest and leaving traces everywhere of what they have done and where they have been.

Maybe I'm a little bit calmer because I've worked with many prosecutors in the past, and they just don't tip their hand until the case goes to trial. It's amazing how much can be going on and yet no one on the outside knows.

Best for us to speculate, and for the Kerry team to investigate.

Peace.

[txindy]

24. The "bush mask" is falling off in a big way now, isn't it?

Charming appointee to be AG, Junior. Constitutional bypasses are his specialty. Geneva Convention? "Quaint." :eyes:

[Sushi-Lover]

18. Somebody needs to send that guy flowers :)

This really is perfect framing .. I love it.

[JuniperLea]

22. yay!!!

so happy to see a positive thread! i'm so sick of the kerry bashing!

he is an honorable man, fcol! that's why so many of us backed him in the first place. time to chill out and let this one play out.

i trust kerry to go about this in the best and most honorable way.

yay for kerry!

[txindy]

25. Surrendered? Never.

Driving KKKarl nuts? :toast:

[rhys2k1]

28. time for the "evangelicals" to come out of the closet...

[Ardee]

30. apologists arise

Thus the neocon defense of the indefensible begins.....Kerry's on vacation, please dont awaken him.

[hippiechick]

32. How Blind Are You ?

It's right there in black and white:

"...they are not trying to challenge the election ..."


Jezus, people, WAKE UP !!
Quit DELUDING yourselves !!!
We got hosed, ok ??

:hippie:

[mzmolly]

37. How blind are YOU!?

You think he's sending attorneys to Ohio for a vacation?

[whalerider55]

41. molly

i think he's doing the minimum he needs to give him a little room to go again in '08.

look. this happened to us in '00, and we were skunked. in hindsight, it seems like the '02 Fl election was a dry-run for 04.

we were unable to conceive that they would do this nationwide, when they'd gotten such a free pass in Florida?

Listen- i was a strong supporter of Kerry- I've been here in MA since he was a Lt. Governor. He's a good man, an honroable man.

but if you think that all this is planned and that we are trying to lull ROve/Baker into a sense of false security before we spring the trap... i'm not their with you.

For the second time in four years, the will of the majority (albeit a slight one) has been thwarted by a pattern of practices that corrode the very core of our democracy.

this isn't about kerry winniong for me anymore. this is about a party that won't take more than a phot-op stand about ensuring that every constitutionally cast vote gets counted, regardless of the consequences or inconvenience. No-one, since before Kerry's semi-concession (i'll give you that) is on record with any passion about that.)

we should by now have filed a thousand lawsuits in a thousand preciincts, based on whatr we know. that way, even the local papers, who love to take part in national events that occur locally, couldn't ignore it.

a dozen lawyers to ohio to quell but not challenge? better to send lawyers, guns and money, as brother Warren would've said.

this is really John Adams vs. Henry Wilson, circa 1775. I say we've been fucked, our very democracy is at stake, so resistence needn't be subtle.

whalerider55

[mzmolly]

43. I disagree. I think they are their to find out if Kerry won Ohio.

Kerry said he wasn't even considering a run in 08 right now. I saw a quote where he called his brother and said "where did you get that idea?"

I don't think this is about 08, I think it's about 04.

People from the campaign have commented here in ways which lead me to believe they would focus on Ohio.

We've got smoking guns all over the place in a largely punch card state.

Recounds in punch card states generally favor the challenger. Expecially when the Secretary of State is Ken Blackwell who will do all he can to NOT count ballots.

The Kerry camp won't cry fraud, (without a smoking gun) but they will pursue the "questions" surrounding this election, and if they feel a recount might change the outcome after in investigation ... they will ask for one.

[whalerider55]

48. well

why then concede so early?
why send your VP out to promise counting every vote and then concentrate on one state, when there are as many if not more smoking guns in two states?
why not at least publicly support the recount in NH, especially when you won there and it would look noble and presidential?

and here in MA, btw, my party contacts tell me he's already expressed interest in running in '08, that he won't seek reelection to the senate seat. some of these folks have known him 20 years and more.

they needn't cry fraud. all they have to say, loudly and repeatedly is that every vote should be counted, and then recounted.

they haven't, and apparently, since it is now a week after the election, they don't have that as part of the game plan right now. when? will it be more credible in two weeks? again, not fraud, just the commitment to counting every vote. a relatively innocuous, but strong message.

and for the record, even if their isn't a smoking gun, i think they should challenge results everywhere.
people get killed by knives in the back, too.

whalerider55

ps sorry. i see hopelessness and ennui setting in, and complacency and a sense of sheepish trust that people know exactly what their ddoing. that may be true, but if we can't divine exactly what it is they are doing, and their motivations, than we risk disappointment.

grrr.
i'll feel better in the morning

[mzmolly]

49. I'm encouraged regardless of the outcome. I won't be let down

if they do all they can.

And, why on earth would he consider 08 if he thinks the elections are dishonest?

Sorry, it doesn't make sense. He knows these people are "the most corrupt buncha guys" ever. He said so.

He's approaching this with caution. And, so am I.

[whalerider55]

53. Because...

he is the second most intelligent, thoughtful, presidential and ambitious man i have ever met.

he knows the pugs don't understand the first rule of hole digging.

he knows we will be in hell in '08.

he believes he can coast to the nomination again, and potentially be another Roosevelt, which we will need. ANd he certainly could be, for all I know. The pickings are mighty slim.

and what does a prosecutor do with corrupt guys?

he busts them. he finds the slightest little bit of evidence and he busts them. Taxes. Al Capone.

And that evidence is out there in plain sight. they've made the mistakes. just read greg palast.

if this was November 1, i'd be happy with caution.

but it ain't.

whalerider55

[mzmolly]

69. Read this.

But John Kerry chose a smarter course. Ask yourself the question, what if John Kerry were to ... concede publicly but, at the same time, look into every instance of mischief, and see if in fact the election was fair or fixed.

This would be a no lose situation for him. The booby trap set up for him would become irrelevant, as he would have done the right thing for the nation, not putting it into turmoil while its troops are in battle.

But at the same time, he is still just as free to look into any voting irregularities as he would have been had he not conceded. Even better, he could do it without the press going insane and the nation being kept on tension-creating edge. All of the lawyers he could have sent to look into things still could be sent to look into things, and if the election is truly called into question, he could then, with ample justification so as to make it legitimate, come out publicly and retract his concession. It is the prosecutor, also one of Kerry’s previous jobs, who knows well enough to thoroughly prepare and investigate his case be leveling charges. You may have a real hunch that someone is responsible for a murder, but until you believe you can win that case in court, you do not make the allegation.

This is called fighting smart. And the Bushies, in the same way they failed to plan for the subtleties of doing battle in Iraq, haven’t even caught on yet that this is what is occurring, that they are, in fact, being outflanked and attacked after being tricked into looking the other way.

http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

[Karenca]

76. totally agree

:dem:

[kayell]

122. I agree with you almost totally except for one thing

I believe that the repukes do have an pretty good inkling what Kerry is up to, but he has put them in a position where they are severely hampered. They can't come out and claim that he is "stealing" the election like they did with Gore, because clearly to the American people, he conceded gracefully. They can't scream about Kerrys outrages in the media, because it would make the public who they are trying to keep ignorant, aware of the issue.

The most they can do is put up the occasional article about conspiracy nuts like they did yesterday in the WaPo, but they don't even dare do that too much, or it will start people wondering.

[txindy]

60. If we can divine exactly what they are doing and their motivations

then so can Rove and his thugs. Which is exactly the opposite result desired from absolute silence, don't you think? :eyes:

The campaign does not need to make any public statements on counting or recounting. There are others doing that: Nader, Cobb, and Badnarik. The objective now is to avoid controversy and creating a distraction from the issue -- actually counting or recounting the votes. Simple.

[jbnow]

130. I have to agree with

why not at least publicly support the recount in NH, especially when you won there and it would look noble and presidential?

If he was intentionally in background before, you are right...now is the time to calmly step out.

He could lead by saying just for the sake of restoring confidence in the system by discovering and correcting any problems, just to assure every American their vote was counted...he will request recounts in a sampling of places or in precincts where there are issues "Troubling to American voters".

Otherwise what would make him think he could win in 2008 even if he could get nominated.

I continue to hope he has been working hard all along. If he has, my respect grows. If he hasn't...I feel duped.

They SHOULD have been prepared for the possibility of widespread electronic tampering on that prepare for the worst, hope for the best theory. But even if they missed that, this "letting it go and just moving on" had better be a facade.

I keep paraphrasing songs in my mind...like "Where have you gone J F Kerry, a nation turns it's lonely eyes to you..."

[hippiechick]

82. Oh. yes. Bush will just pack up and leave the White House.

Right. :eyes:

If presented with evidence that Kerry indeed won, the other side will SCREAM 'Coup' in their shrillest, squealy-est whiner voices, and the fundie freeptards will think nothing of taking up arms to ensure that their Fuhrer is inaugurated in January.

Do you REALLY think Kerry and the Dem leadership are gonna let something like that happen in the streets of this country when they were too wimpy to even wait for the final vote certifications to concede ?

Get yourself a book on the stages of grief, accept that this election is OVER, and work like hell for paper ballots in '06 & '08.


WE
GOT
HOSED.
Period.


:hippie:

[mzmolly]

86. Get yourself a book on democracy and accept the fact that unless we fight

we don't have one.

While your at it pick up a book on manners ... oh and Limbaugh talking points, sounds like your running out.

[hippiechick]

88. Look whose talking about manners, ma'am.

Welcome to my ignore list. _|_

[mzmolly]

90. Gosh, I'm crushed.

:cry:

[regnaD kciN]

118. Looks to me like we've got ourselves a refugee...

...from a certain other progressive site with three initials (or two initials with a number in-between) and a large number of Nader devotees.

The dead giveaway is the "_|_" -- on that site, that key combination gives you a "smilie" flipping the reader off. Oops! Looks like hippiechick forgot that she wasn't in Kansas anymore...

;-)

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

134. Put me on it too while you're at it.

[imaginary girl]

46. Yes, but we've already seen that lawsuits don't work

This has to have the weight of the people behind it, and the only way to get that is for the parties to step out of the lime light. It's a risky strategy, if true, but so are all the others. And it also makes more sense as to why they started collecting money for lawyers before the election ... think about it, if they hadn't planned this stealth manuever, wouldn't they have gotten more $ in response to their requests during a controversial time like this?

[whalerider55]

51. lawsuits don't work?

Lawsuits, if they are heard can do a lot of good, or the pugs wouldn't be so hot to trot for tort reform.

if a thousand lawsuits were filed, it would
A) require fast and deeply rooted grassroots action, which is good.
b) wake up every small town newspaper, ands serve as a stoking point for other stories... this isn't he said she said, this is i went to exercise my right as a citizen and i was impeded or cheated.
C) this moves the battle to a local level while organizing it on a national level.

You could tell John Edwards lawsuits don't work, but i doubt he'd believe you.

I figure we're so polarized now, how could this make it any worse?
At least we could be polarized and maybe win an election for a change.

whalerider55

[txindy]

63. Lawsuits right now would definitely make it worse

If thousands of lawsuits are filed now, THAT becomes the story. NOT the issues within each lawsuit, but the lawsuits themselves.

There's time enough for litigation, should it prove necessary. I don't think it will. Not on that scale, at any rate.

[BlueCaliDem]

72. It's the Media, stupid....

Hi! I'm a newbie here. Decided to stop lurking, and decided to participate.

Anywho...coming back to the heading of my post...it's the media wars that time, and time again, Democrats and Liberals have lost against the right-wingers, and Republicans, even before a single ballot was cast, or hasn't the disproportionate size of right-winger/republican talking heads on television given us a clue yet??
Faux News Channel isn't successful for nuthin', y'know.
Like Eddie Izzard reminded us during one of his hilarious stand-up shows: "It's 70% on how you look; 20% how you say it, and only 10% WHAT you say." that people get. IOW, "show" instead of "substance" is what grabs most people's minds--and proof of the validity of this is in the fact that Bush is still getting more votes than there are bigots, racists, and the like in America!

No. Kerry is wise not to go completely public IF he is, indeed, ensuring that "every vote counts, and every vote will be counted."
A good poker player never shows his hand in the middle of the game.

[txindy]

79. Nice post

Glad you're here. Welcome! :hi:

[Generator]

68. I agree !! This is war. If it's a covert war being waged, ah-okay but

But this is war. And I don't think returning to the senate, and thinking of '08 is war.

I think the Kerry lovers are in denial. I have a shred of miracle juice left, but like koolaid I'm not drinking it just because it's there.

[oddtext]

54. clearly management of spin

is the primary consideration which is why this is on the down-low. i can't believe that the dems don't see that a failure to fight will lead to disenchantment in the base. i think we'll see something dramatic should NH or somewhere else provides some proof upon which kerry can hang his hat -- ie an unconcession, a press conference and reems of stats/proof. what would seal it are criminal arrests.

[whalerider55]

57. but we already

had criminal indictments in Nevada in October of pug aides, for shredding demo registrations- and three of these aides were reassigned to Ohio in the closing days of the campaign. c'mon, man, wtf is happening here. we don't need a pack of lawyers to picvk up the scent by now, my 11 year old irish terrier poochie can smell it all the way out here in the Blue state of MA

whalerider55

[Cronus Protagonist]

95. He's got lawyers all over it and still you're going "the sky has fallen"

What, pray tell, are all these attorneys doing then?

Oh look, the *rest* of the article says that - they have 30 questions for each official. I would call that "discovery", but you would call it what? "The death throes of a lost campaign?"

Your slip is showing, my dear.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[yodermon]

127. The point, one more time,

Is that the Kerry camp cannot come out and say "we are challenging the election" because that is the exact scenario that Karl Rove et. al. are salivating over. The media would immediately crucify him.

Kerry is playing it smart. "We simply trying to count all the ballots." If nothing comes of it, we will be exactly where we are now -- nothing ventured, nothing gained.

They have learned from the mistakes of 2000. In my view, Gore kept campaiging after the 2000 vote, up to the SC decision. Once the legal processes are in gear, overt publicity can only hurt you, and muddy the waters. Remember "Sore Loserman"?

Kerry CANNOT be accused of being a sore loser, because excuse me, he conceded. In the non-legally binding sense, of course. ;)

As another poster said, he is playing chess.
KERRY's GAMBIT -- I love it

ON EDIT: Watch the end of Matrix Revolutions again. If you hated the ending, perhaps you think Kerry has rolled. ;)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

44. Sign the petition here.....

http://www.petitiononline.com/uselect/petition.html

[JimmyRay]

45. We can't depend on DNC or Mass Media to help.....

"At this point the number of irregularities brought to our attention is not going to change the outcome of the election," said DNC spokesman Jano Cabrera. "The simple fact of the matter is that Republicans received more votes than Democrats, and we're not contesting this election."


Same guy was on MSNBC, talking about how the DNC doesn't
feel that there is any reason to pursue this, he called
it nonsense and said they don't want to be seen as
promoting further division of the country, which could
hurt their chances in 2008 and even 2012.

Basically it is every man for themselves, the only way
to get this done is through grass roots organization,
from everything that has been on the mass media, they
think we are a bunch of "kooky conspiracy theorists."

That is what this has been reduced to, a conspiracy
theory, like Roswell or something.

This sucks, but we need to keep pushing, need to keep
hoping, even though we are in the shadows, we need to
fing the light.

[PATRICK]

47. Calm

Technically he has surrendered so it not our concern until some 'secret plan" arises on top of enough proof, neither of which is being accepted into the light of day.

If Kerry can fool us and the media he certainly has succeeded. The last time this occurred was in Iowa thanks to the usual incompetence of the distracted media. In any event, it is our JOB to fight election fraud, not to anoint Kerry in spite of himself. Time will tell. Hope is in your hands, not speculation about a white knight rescue.

Cripes, we are even expecting Nader to pull something out when it is a far hope he can even effect the rapid advance of stubborn fraud.

Buckle down to get the truth out as if it doesn't matter who "wins" 2004, because that is seemingly out of hands and none the closer by waiting for someone else to do the job.

This is setting us up for an emotional collapse in the one issue that separates us from democracy itself in America.

[mzmolly]

52. I agree it's OUR job, and part of that consists of calling Senator

Kerry's office as I have.

However, I remain encouraged that his attorneys ACTUALLY have a purpose in Ohio.

[whalerider55]

55. purpose

On election eve, around 2AM, Dan Rather reported that a plane load of attorneys was enroute to Ohio on the private jet of John Henry, owner of the Red Sox.

I wonder what their purpose was, and whether they ever arrived. Are these new guys reinforcements?

whalerider55

[ChiciB1]

56. MY THOUGHTS...

EXACTLY!! I've just postd at 3 or 4 other threads. We need to Keep On Keeeping On! No Stopping.

This could have been a NATIONAL FRAUD... all of the states! NO SURRENDER! The Media has been Bushie Buddies for far too long!! CNN, has sold it's SOUL!! Wolfie & Wolfowitz!!

Three million votes on a National scale is NOTHING!! Remember it's WE THE PEOPLE!! NOT... WE THE REPUKES!! If we let them get away now, we will be FOREVER LOST!! NOT THIS TIME, NOT AGAIN... EVER!!

I live in Sarasota County, FL and things didn't look good for Bush while I was out campaigning all over the place. Lots of Republicans told me they weren't voting for Bush. Home of Cruella The Witch... Katherine Harris!! From the response we got, we thought we were going to DUMP HER!! Didn't Happen! The Election was RIGGED, I can't help it, I know what I saw!!

[JimmyRay]

58. HARD EVIDENCE THAT REPUKES CHEATED!!!!!!

A man named Tarrance Sanger was just on the news in Ohio
and said he has VIDEORECORDED PROOF OF REPUBLICANS
ADJUSTING THE MACHINES, EVEN UPCLOSE PICTURES OF THE
MACHINE TOTALS BEING MANIPULATED. He said he's going
to pass it to either the DNC, Kerry's Lawyers or a
trustworthy media outlet. It does seem like he is
looking out for money, but if this is true, then is the
silver bullet to wipe out those damned REPUKES ONCE
AND FOR ALL!

[ChiciB1]

59. keeping fingers crossed!

KICKING REALLY HARD!

[LongTomH]

62. Please Lord, Let it be true!

n/m:kick:

[mzmolly]

73. OMG! I sure hope this pans out before the FBI comes a knockin on that

guys door to "confiscate" the tape!

[futurecitizen]

89. Hmm.. I find no links to this online..

What channel and city (ie, what network) was this on?

A word of caution: don't get too excited about unsubstantiated claims, folks. The let-down in disappointment costs more than what you get in excitement.

Not saying this is false, just don't be discouraged if it is.

FC

[hangloose]

104. What news who can we call for more information??

[imaginary girl]

106. Uh oh. If it's true and he's going for money ...

... hope the republicans don't become the highest bidders!

[SammyWinstonJack]

108. Looking for money?

That is disgusting! :puke: Bet we can guess who the highest bidders will be. :eyes:

[jsamuel]

111. Any more info?

Trying not to ge my hopes up here...

[ColdNovember]

117. There is a site offering a reward

of 100,000 I think.

but you have to be able to show it happened in multiple states,and you have to have an effect on the election.

Does he just have the one video? I can see them sacrificig some low level drones at one location to save the fat cats further up the line.
They would just claim that is the exception to the rule

[andym]

61. The interesting thing is that the lawyers are only being sent to Ohio

The interesting thing is that the lawyers are being sent to Ohio.

No talk about the other states with potential problems like Nevada, which even if it turned would not give Kerry the election. Only Ohio could give Kerry a victory. Coincidence? perhaps, or perhaps not.

[mzmolly]

74. Me thinks ... perhaps not. Also there are 17,000 attorneys nation wide

who are actually working on other states to my understanding? :hi:

[YellowDoginthehouse]

64. Everybody just hang in there....

...for the long haul...

Very encouraging news!

Also please note that Kos diarist, Renee in Ohio broke a story last night about Blackwell trying to change provisional rules in midcount...

[bleever]

67. Link, please? n/t

[YellowDoginthehouse]

92. http://www.dailykos.com/hotlist/add/2004/11/11/03225/949/displaystory//

n/t

[YellowDoginthehouse]

94. again

http://www.dailykos.com/hotlist/add/2004/11/11/03225/949/displaystory//

[ewagner]

98. got a blank page..

whatssup?

[bleever]

96. Thanks. Need to click on Renee's diary link on right. n/t

[crickets]

71. Thanks, mzmolly

I've been discouraged at times, but I haven't given up on Kerry yet. As others mentioned, the quick concession did seem out of character. Seems to me Kerry is smart like a fox. This election is not over yet. It won't be over until the electoral votes are read. A lot can happen between now and then, both behind the scenes and otherwise.

[mzmolly]

75. You bet. More encouragement here.

http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

:hi:

Smart like a fox indeed.

[99Pancakes]

84. Kerry has the reputation

of future Dems ahead of him. Republi-can'ts are notorious for turning "priors" against us. So, Kerry proceeding with caution is good for all of us. His bro is even in on it.

Perhaps they have telephoned Jackson, Clark, Dean etc., etc. and asked them to lay low so that we don't all look like a bunch of brawling sore losers with Zero proof.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

100. That probably deserves it's own thread....

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

101. "Kerry realized that launching public campaign would be walking into trap"

John Kerry was faced with three options. One, fight on publicly rather than conceding and put the nation into a media frenzied limbo. Two, concede and go on with his life, turning his back on his promise to his supporters to ensure that “every vote will be counted.”

Most people are assuming that John Kerry opted for the second of these while John Edwards, his runningmate, opted for the first, and since Kerry was the big dog, he won out. But people who think this are thinking in Bush terms, all or nothing, either you are for the war or against it, that either Senator Kerry was for recounting the votes or he was against it.

The reality is, John Kerry has chosen a third, much smarter course – just as he said he would all along.

John Kerry realized that to launch a public campaign calling the vote into question would be disastrous. In fact, he likely realized he would we walking right into a Bush-set booby trap.

[futurecitizen]

87. Doing this the right way

Hi everyone,

I'm having an identity crisis. I don't know if I'm a conspiracy theorist or not. I have a hard time believing that the massive collusion that would have to occur for all of the democratic leadership to just quietly go to sleep actually occurred -- after all, there are only two Skull and Bonesmen, right? However, I also find the fact that Kerry and the democratic leadership haven't publically addressed our small(?) but vocal concerns about the election. My personal take is this: it doesn't really matter what they do.

We are citizens, and we have questions. On the one hand, if there is some conspiracy, as some believe, it would make sense to quell our doubts by having our candidate do an 'official' investigation that turns up nothing. Then we all quiet down, our side of the story all wrapped up in a bow by our leader. We lose steam, people believe it because it's 'our' side, and everyone can merrily go about their New World Agenda.

On the other hand, if there is not some massive conspiracy (and again, it just seems incredibly unlikely that there is, though I would have said that fears of fascism in the United States would have been incredibly unlikely ten years ago), then I don't see how Kerry's cause can be hurt by our continued investigations. Not only that, but the continued dedication of this group should send a clear signal to the Powers That Be that they may have got more than they bargained for with Bush' agenda in the last four years. We're awake now, and we're not likely to go back to sleep. It is only through our efforts that this will continue to get any coverage at all in the media, and it's pretty obvious that the more times that that graph of percent change constantly in Bush favor is shown on TV, the better.

There is a weakness and a strength in the democratic party, and that's that we're not all willing to toe some line. We're a collection of alternative ideas. This sometimes weakens us because we don't necessarily agree on a common direction, but it is also a strength in times like these. In the final analysis Kerry's concession means nothing, the 'official line' means nothing. What means something is that this community crunches their own numbers, funds and completes their own investigation, and is satisfied with the result.

I don't know whether or not this election was stolen, but I'm not going to stop until I do know, and if it means going and asking people how they voted, I'm going to do it.

I live in the bay area and I stopped by the law office that is handling the HelpAmericaRecount effort. I haven't been on DU long enough to trust that the people involved with the effort were on the up and up, so I just wanted to stop by and get a feel for things. I spoke with Lowell Finley and it seems to be a valid effort. I would submit to this group that it is up to US to do this, not anyone else.

FC

[mzmolly]

91. Agreed, and welcome to DU!

:toast:

[glitch]

97. Hear Hear! Welcome to DU nt

[seito]

114. Thoughts of a Newbie

It is up to the people to take back our Democracy. I live in Maryland, in a Red County and there was 1 person in front of me when I went to vote. We had 17 machines, and I probably spent 10 minutes at the polls.

I can not express my admiration for those young people in Ohio and across this nation that stood in the rain for 10+ hours to participate in our "Democracy".

We owe it to them and every other American to keep the faith and never give up this fight. We owe it to them to make sure that their vote is counted and that they have faith that the system works.

The outcome of this election is just one part. Faith in our elections process is paramount.

[txindy]

115. Terrific post

Well thought out and makes a lot of sense.

Welcome to DU, futurecitizen! :hi:

[NurseLefty]

102. It's a start, at least.

Kerry's appearance of folding so quickly left me feeling especially hollow about the loss.

[Jasper 91]

103. Have you seen this ?

NOVEMBER 10, 2004 – When Senator John Kerry (D-MA) talked about how his policy would be different in Iraq, he kept saying, in effect, ‘It’s the how, stupid.’ He said repeatedly he would fight a “smarter” war.

Flash forward to today. Following the election, there was a problem apparent. The exit polling didn't match the ballot count, and many reasons for that began to become apparent.

John Kerry was faced with three options. One, fight on publicly rather than conceding and put the nation into a media frenzied limbo. Two, concede and go on with his life, turning his back on his promise to his supporters to ensure that “every vote will be counted.”

Most people are assuming that John Kerry opted for the second of these while John Edwards, his runningmate, opted for the first, and since Kerry was the big dog, he won out. But people who think this are thinking in Bush terms, all or nothing, either you are for the war or against it, that either Senator Kerry was for recounting the votes or he was against it.

The reality is, John Kerry has chosen a third, much smarter course – just as he said he would all along.

John Kerry realized that to launch a public campaign calling the vote into question would be disastrous. In fact, he likely realized he would we walking right into a Bush-set booby trap.

More:

http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

[mzmolly]

105. I did Thank YOU. Very hopefull piece.

:hi:

[intelle]

107. This was a wonderful article!

Thank you so much for posting it. I had been thinking that both Kerry and Edwards are lawyers (and Edwards was particularly successful), and was thinking that they may be collecting the evidence before they challenge. This paper definitely supports this theory. Thank you again!

Intelle:yourock:

[melissaf]

113. I agree

This, I think, is the first real piece of evidence that the Kerry people really and truly are out there investigating this election. (Everything else I've seen up to now has just been theoretical, i.e., "Kerry MUST be operating under the radar! It's the smart thing to do!") Now I'm much more optimistic.

I had another thought about why Kerry and co. might be trying to stay out of the public eye. Could it also be the case that, with Bush now tipping his hand as to all the hard-core right-wing nutball plans he has for the country, the moderate repubs MIGHT start feeling a bit queasy with their choice for prez? Thus, if something big were to happen in Ohio--an automatic recount, say--it's conceivable that all the moderates out there having buyer's remorse would maybe not have as much of a problem, wouldn't cry foul, wouldn't crow about the democrats trying to "steal" another election. At the very least, if Kerry's people find actual evidence of fraud, it could go a long way to eroding Bushy's Mandate for Megalomania. There again, the moderate repubs that are now having second thoughts might actually join in the fight to keep Bush on a shorter leash.

(Stay tuned for my next mish-mash of mixed metaphors! Or is it mexed mitaphors? :-) )

[SoCalDemocrat]

110. Only half the job

Asking is not enough. They need to be sampling and investigating independently of the crooked Republican run state election board.

[mzmolly]

123. I'm certain they are.

:hi:

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[B Calm]

124. Cons called him a flip flopper, I pray he is!

[shelley806]

129. Wow! How did I miss this one? I usually try to read all of your posts,

and this one is so positive. I am encouraged. Thanks a lot!

[LiberalAndProud]

131. Kerry has a crack team here at DU.

The numbers are being crunched. The evidence is mounting.

[juliewolf]

132. Kerry and the Election

I'm definintely in the "discretion is the better part of valor" camp here. The very smartest thing Kerry can do right now is to let the rest of us come across as wingnuts while the facts are coming out and be prepared to act when things turn.

[lojasmo]

133. They're there to prove the legitimacy of Bush's win

"the goal is to identify any voting problems and quell doubts about the legitimacy of the Ohio election being raised on the Internet."

[Helga Scow Stern]

135. More info on Kerry in Ohio by LA Times and G. Palast

see this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x49677