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Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News Sunday 12/18/05

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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 08:51 AM
Original message
Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News Sunday 12/18/05

All members welcome and encouraged to participate.








Link to previous Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News thread:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x405605


All previous daily threads are available here:


http://www.independentmediasource.com/DU_archives/du_2004erd_el_ref_fr_thr_calenders.htm


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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Today's Tech Bits

Today's Tech Bits
E-voting firm refuses comment on COO exit


CLEVELAND - Diebold Inc. has been struggling to prove that its touch-screen voting machines are secure and reliable, but the resignation of its chief executive may have boosted investors’ perceptions of the company.

Walden W. O’Dell, 60, quit for unspecified personal reasons, sending Diebold stock up 5 percent on Tuesday, the day after he resigned. Diebold’s chief operating officer, Thomas Swidarski, was named O’Dell’s successor.

Diebold spokesman Mike Jacobsen would not elaborate on the resignation.

Diebold, whose main business is making ATMs and security systems, ventured into e-voting after the Florida punch-card debacle of 2000. The business has been bumpy.

In 2003, after O’Dell invited people to a Bush fund-raiser stating he planned to help "Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president," critics said a maker of voting machines should not be involved in partisan politics. The company has since prohibited top executives from making political contributions.

More: http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/12182005/business/78673.htm
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. Blackwell's focus on jobs, spending woes

Blackwell's focus on jobs, spending woes


By JANELLE RUCKER
Gazette staff writer

With a resume boasting stints as mayor of Cincinnati, treasurer of state, secretary of state, educator and businessman, J. Kenneth Blackwell now is applying to voters for the position of Ohio's highest elected official.

Disappointed in the state's leadership thus far, Blackwell has plans to turn government spending, employment trends and Ohio's economy around.

...snip

CG:As you know, Ross County is one of the counties that's been involved in lawsuits against the voting machine mandates. Seeing all the opposition that came from that, do you still think it was a good idea?

Blackwell:The fact is that the Help America Vote Act established standards for the new machines. So, we went through a bidding process that gave us a list of suitable machines against the standards established by the federal law, the HAVA. So, yes, I think that we are a national leader ... We are now going to be one of the first states to successfully roll out the new system. We're one of the largest states in the country and so, at the end of the day, we'll have machines that are easier to use, that are more reliable and more accurate.


More: http://www.chillicothegazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/NEWS01/512180318/1002
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. Voting devices under scrutiny

Voting devices under scrutiny


TALLAHASSEE - Gov. Jeb Bush said the state should review the way it tests electronic voting machines after a local elections official said the devices could be hacked to change race outcomes.

Bush's remarks Friday come after the acting secretary of state, David Mann, said he was confident in the process of certifying voting machines. Mann said he was "concerned" only that Leon County Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho might have given an outsider access to computer codes for a test of the Diebold optical-scan machines.

Sancho sent state elections officials a letter Friday requesting they do "further investigation" of Diebold Election Systems Accuvote 2000. Sancho said his internal tests showed the optical-scan machine's memory card produces false results when hacked by elections office insiders.

Sancho persuaded Leon County commissioners Tuesday to scrap the Diebold system in favor of one manufactured by Election Systems & Software, which also makes the ATM-style touchscreen voting machines used in Miami-Dade and Broward.

Bush also questioned whether Sancho gave away privileged information - which Sancho denies - but said the issue is "too important" to ignore.

...snip

A Diebold spokesman questioned Sancho's tests, saying they didn't replicate real-world conditions. The tests involved optical-scan machines that use paper ballots voters mark with pencils. The ballots are fed into scanners that record the results onto the memory cards, which are then tabulated by a central computer.

More: http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/LOCAL/212180332/1078/news
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Discussion
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. Iraq-U.S. calls election fair, but parties say flaws make results suspect
Edited on Sun Dec-18-05 09:53 AM by Algorem
Iraq vote complaints top 200

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/world/12/18iraq.html

or

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/dead-men-voted-in-poll-claim-iraq-parties/2005/12/18/1134840742751.html

THE WASHINGTON POST

Sunday, December 18, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq — As the United States portrayed last week's election in Iraq as a resounding success, Iraqi political parties complained Saturday of violations including dead men voting and murder in the streets.

The Iraqi electoral commission said it had received more than 200 complaints before today's deadline for filing grievances. A commission spokesman said many are "exaggerated," but political parties from all parts of the country said violence and fraud made the outcome suspect.

"We have documented violations, threats and breaches," said Mehdi Hafedh, an official of former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's secular party.

At almost the same time, the coalition of Shiite Muslim religious parties that is vying to retain its majority in parliament warned that it would not accept results that it deems fraudulent...

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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. oldie but goodie
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. LTTE: Replace voting machines with paper ballots (NY)
Replace voting machines with paper ballots

First published: Sunday, December 18, 2005

It probably wasn't on last night's news, but our one and only 45-day public comment period, for choosing our next generation of voting equipment, has already begun. Our tried and true lever voting machines will soon be banned for use. The choice to replace them is between the newfangled electronic machines and paper ballots that can be read by optical scanners.
With decades of experience with computers and programming, I'm convinced the right option here is the paper ballot. I've seen, firsthand, the ease at which programmable devices can be configured to portray one image and deliver just the opposite. To pretend electronic voting panels could be trusted to deliver your intended votes would be similar to promising your PC would never get corrupted or infected by spyware or a virus.

With or without optical scanners, the paper ballot is the only sure way to assure your vote will be processed accurately on Election Day. Sure, a simple scanner would expedite counting, but a valid (and verifiable) election could be (and has been) conducted with only printed ballots.

I've seen Vote-PAD for handicapped (e.g. blind) voters and, again, they work great without scanners. See http://www.votersunite.org.

More: http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=430836&category=OPINION&newsdate=12/18/2005

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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. Be grateful we actually get to vote (Canada)
Edited on Sun Dec-18-05 10:11 AM by MelissaB

Be grateful we actually get to vote


OPINION COLUMN

I’ve been busy this month avidly following the election run-up, despite the media telling me I should be angry at the affront of a winter election.

Personally, I stay optimistic about the election (and the public relations assault leading up to E-Day) by reflecting on what a real privilege it is to live in a country with a working democracy, such as it is.

Think about it: we enjoy citizenship in one of the most stable and free countries, both historically and internationally speaking. Why then should we be so ungrateful for being called upon to participate in the political process?

When I mark my ballot, there will be no foreign mercenaries with guns and body armour to “oversee” the polling station. There will be no voting machines built by partisan sponsors of the incumbent party to process my vote. There is no real possibility of another nation using force to overthrow our democratically elected leader.


More: http://www.brandonsun.com/story.php?story_id=13705
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. PA: Bucks voting coalition grows in numbers, influence

Bucks voting coalition grows in numbers, influence
Municipalities, Dems join call for machines with paper record.


By Hal Marcovitz
Of The Morning Call

Six months ago, the Bucks County Coalition for Voting Integrity amounted to little more than a few names and phone numbers scribbled on a note pad kept by Mary Ann Gould, the Richboro woman who founded the group.

Today, the coalition has a mailing list of more than 1,000, an attorney, a legal defense fund and a major political party backing its mission, which is to persuade the county commissioners to buy voting machines that preserve paper records of each vote cast in an election.


County commissioners have been flooded with phone calls and e-mails from coalition members.

And others are sitting up and taking notice as well.

Four municipalities in Bucks have passed resolutions calling for ''voter-verified paper ballots.'' And, the Bucks County Democratic Committee has weighed in, passing a resolution this month calling on commissioners to adopt the coalition's stance and buy machines that create paper records.

Specifically, Neil Samuels, the Democratic Party deputy chairman who authored the resolution, says party officials found the coalition's leaders persuasive and agreed to adopt the resolution, unanimously, after a coalition presentation.

''They are dogged, determined and focused,'' Samuels says. ''I think they have performed a real public service.''

...snip

''This is not a battle over machines,'' she insists. ''It is a battle about democracy. It's about people taking back control. The commissioners have no right to make this decision independently. We should have a say in it.''



More: http://www.mcall.com/news/local/quakertown/all-2votedec18,0,7042551.story?coll=all-newslocalquakertown-hed
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. FL: ELECTION GAPS



EDITORIAL SUMMARIES: A review of the week's editorials• ELECTION GAPS:
Some people will think that the Tallahassee election supervisor's experiment of hacking into his voting machines was grandstanding. But even if it were -- and we don't think it was -- those responsible for accurate election results should pay close attention. The tests showed that even voting equipment believed to be secure is vulnerable to hackers -- Dec. 16.


Link: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/13425122.htm
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. NY: Vote reform is way overdue

Vote reform is way overdue


New York's handling of voting reform is an unmitigated mess. Key deadlines have been missed. Federal funds are in jeopardy. Confusion abounds. And state leaders, from legislators to election officials, have taken a breezy attitude toward the entire process. The state had plenty of time to get its act together after federal officials passed the Help America Vote Act in 2002. Yet, here we are three years later, and New York is on the verge of being in violation of federal law. Moreover, it is supposed to have new voting machines in place by the September primary; the state will more than likely miss that deadline as well.

Last week, New York conceded another important component of the voting act — requiring a statewide voter database — won't be up and running anytime soon. States are supposed to have that completed by the first of the year. State election officials say it could be 18 months before it's finished.

The federal government has earmarked about $20 million for New York's computerized voter list but it was contingent on the state meeting the deadline. Federal officials may cut the state some slack if it's making progress, but there is no guarantee. The majority of states already are fully compliant with the database requirement, according to the Gannett News Service in Albany. Most others are well under way. New York has been trailing from the get-go of the voting act, and there is plenty of blame to go around. County officials, who will be taking over election responsibilities from the towns, also need to act. They will need to train poll workers who will now come under their jurisdiction and figure out many logistical challenges with the change in authority.

Albany leaders come up short

Most of the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the governor and Legislature. For years, they dickered about these reforms. Finally, this year, they set some wide parameters about what types of new voting machines could be used — but they punted key decisions to the state Board of Elections before a final determination can be made by county officials.


More: http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/OPINION01/512180323
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. NC: Voting-machine comments sought

Voting-machine comments sought


Catawba County Board of Elections will take public comments on voting equipment at a meeting Monday.The board will meet at 4:30 p.m. in the second-floor meeting room at the Government Center in Newton.

The county is trying to get its voting machines certified for use in next year's elections, but it may have to buy new machines if the state does not allow the county to retrofit its machines to comply with North Carolina's new voting equipment law.
Hart InterCivic, the maker of Catawba's machines, was recently granted a January review of the machines to get them approved for 2006 elections.

Hart officials have said they did not submit a bid for certification of the machines this fall because they were concerned about some terms and conditions in the new state elections law, which requires a paper trail of votes and adherence to 2002 federal standards.
The company said it is still hoping to negotiate, but if there is no movement in the next month, it may not go through with the review, forcing Catawba County to buy new machines. Details: (828) 464-2424. -- hannah mitchell


Link: http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/states/north_carolina/counties/catawba/13434467.htm
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. NC: Time for the county to vote on a system

Time for the county to vote on a system


By Nate DeGraff
Staff Writer
Paper or power?

That's the hot topic in local election circles these days. Guilford County will likely choose new voting machines in January, and officials generally have two choices.

One is a paper-based system in which voters fill in ovals on paper ballots. It's called an optical-scan system because the ballots are counted with a scanner.

The other is a touch-screen system that allows voters to select candidates with their fingers on a computer screen. That's similar to the system the county uses now.

The three-member Board of Elections will likely recommend a system to county commissioners within the next month. The state now requires that all voting systems generate a paper record, and the state elections board wants counties to choose a system by Jan. 20 so that systems can be installed before the May primary.

The county Board of Elections and the county commissioners will likely hear from a group of touch-screen opponents, who say the high-tech systems are costly and unreliable.

"With electronic voting, you can never be sure," said David Allen, an outspoken optical-scan supporter and a member of a special state committee that recommended voting-machine changes this year.

But Guilford County has been using touch-screen or similar systems for the past 18 years, said Elections Director George Gilbert. The Board of Elections hasn't indicated that it wants to change.

...snip

At stake is the way the voters select candidates in city, county, state and national elections. Voting systems grabbed headlines last year when electronic machines in Carteret County lost more than 4,400 votes, prompting the General Assembly to pass legislation that required all voting systems, including touch-screens, to generate a paper trail. The record will serve as a backup and allow voters to check over their votes before casting them.

During the past several months, touch-screen opponents have shown up at Guilford County commissioners meetings, railing against Gilbert and touch-screen systems.

Among them is Allen, who contends that touch-screen systems cost more than three times as much per precinct as optical-scan. And touch-screens are vulnerable to computer hackers and power failures, he said.

"If you have a problem," Allen said of the optical-scan system, "you still have those paper ballots."


More: http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/NEWSREC0101/512180316/1001/NEWSREC0201

Isn't this a DU poster? I can't remember what he posts as here though. Somebody help me.

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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
14. Jane Smiley: A Ten-Step Program

Jane Smiley: A Ten-Step Program



..snip

... In addition to these signs, though, we have several others, among them the fact that Bush and Cheney attempt to communicate only with their base (and remember, in “Farenheit 911”, Bush told a group of wealthy contributors that they WERE his base). Their base is fairly small and getting smaller, but they seem to have no desire, even when campaigning, to enlarge their base. It’s as if they know that the voters don’t matter, and, of course, according to the president of the Diebold Company, the voters don’t matter (see Avi Rubin’s post about voting machine certifcation).

...snip

My point is not to psychoanalyze Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. How they came to think as they do, and how things look to them are not actually very interesting. What is important is that average Americans come to comprehend how dangerous they are, and how destructive their plans are. Do they actually plan to disenfranchise everyone but their reliable base? Well, yes they do. Can they? If they have control of the electronic voting machines, they can. Do they actually plan for their associates and cronies to skim off vast quantities of the taxpayers’ money? Well, yes they do. Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big Ag, and the major war industries already are doing so, and they have taken plenty from the Indian tribes and foreigners, too Do they actually plan to let New Orleans, that blue spot in a red state, slip away? Looks like it. Do they actually plan to destroy the middle class? They are making good progress--poverty was up twelve percent last year, and the “booming economy” is strangely low on job growth, at least for Americans. The catalogue of their “successes”, or, as average Americans might term it, their “failures”, is pretty long. Given the sympathy the Democrats afford them, we can stop them in only a few ways, it seems--by constantly bearing witness to their crimes, and prosecuting them if and when we can, by never underestimating the ruthlessness of their motives and the enormity of their goal, by being immune to their habitual public relations tools: fear, accusations of betrayal, false patriotism, appeals to populist and religious resentments, use of political red herrings like gay marriage.

Most important, we must make every effort to oversee and guarantee the credibility of our elections.




More: http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20051217/cm_huffpost/012451;_ylt=A0SOwl7mAqVDc58ASRX9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. NC: Craven commissioners to look at voting options

Craven commissioners to look at voting options


December 18,2005
BY Sue Book
Sun Journal

The Craven County Board of Commissioners will get up to speed Monday on new voting machines, but there is still distance for the board of elections to go before a choice can be made.

Commissioners are slated to hear from Tiffiney Miller, Craven elections director, at its Monday meeting about the necessary steps before deciding on direct recording electronic (DRE) machines or optical scan machines.

A new state law requires counties to have electronic voting machines that have a paper backup ballot. The 208 machines the county has used since 1997 do not have that feature and will have to be replaced.

The county has $312,000 for equipment and $37,931 for software to purchasing the machines from federal money allocated through the Help America Vote Act. Craven's current machines cost about $3,335 each. An estimated cost for new machines was unavailable.

Miller is expected to give commissioners a timetable on selecting the machines. That timetable includes a Craven County Board of Elections meeting set for Tuesday and a public forum Dec. 28 at the Craven County Courthouse Annex.


More: http://www.newbernsj.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=25303&Section=Local
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
16. 2000 Florida Election may have been hacked!

2000 Florida Election may have been hacked!


By: Brad Friedman-Investigative Reporter

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:51 AM ET

Leon County's Ion Sancho Believes Electronic Manipulation of Votes Occurred in Florida's Contested Presidential Race!

Fallout Continues to Rock E-Voting World in Light of Recent Hack Demo of Machines made by Diebold, Inc.

MACON, GA. (www.bradblog.com)- The "hack test" of a mock election using Diebold voting equipment earlier this week in Leon County, Florida -- in which results of the election were completely flipped from 2-6 to 7-1 without even a trail of evidence left behind -- has continued to send shockwaves from Florida to Ohio to California and everywhere else in between.

The Director of Elections in Leon County, Ion Sancho reportedly proclaimed, after the stunning results of last Tuesday's test, that he would never use Diebold voting machines in any election in the county again.

Television news coverage began hitting last night in Tallahassee, the Florida state capital, which also happens to be in Leon County. And in a remarkable admission, Sancho now says he believes that such a hack occurred in the 2000 Presidential Election in Volusia County, Florida.

-- Here's a link to that video coverage...You need to watch it!


Much more: http://www.maconareaonline.com/news.asp?id=12857
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Discussion
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
18. Dear Howard Dean: Why Bother?

Dear Howard Dean: Why Bother?


by Ernest Partridge
www.dissidentvoice.org
December 17, 2005
First Published in The Crisis Papers


Dr. Howard Dean, Chair
Democratic National Committee

Dear Dr. Dean,

Every week I get dozens of solicitations from the Democratic National Committee, from the Democratic Senate and Congressional Campaign Committees, or from various Democratic candidates and office-holders, each of them asking for contributions. “You can help us achieve victory next November,” I am told.

If by “victory” is meant a majority vote cast at the polls, then the Democrats achieved “victory” in 2000, 2002 and 2004. And yet, the Republicans remain in control of the Congress and the White House.

Small wonder! Republicans build the voting machines, Republicans write the secret software, Republicans count and compile the totals. The Republican machines allow no auditing of the vote totals they report. So Republicans have the ability to “win” elections, regardless of the will of the voters. There is compelling evidence that they have done just that.

And so, if nothing is done to end the privatization of our elections and to introduce reliable verification, the Republicans will "win" again in November 2006 and then in 2008. Today, eleven months before the mid-term election, the outcome is fore-ordained -- as certain as Soviet elections under Stalin, and Iraqi elections under Saddam. For, as Stalin said, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything.”

In the United States today, the GOP counts most of the votes, and there are no means to verify up to 80% of those votes.

More: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Partridge1217.htm
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. Detroit: Taxpayers' legal tab for Currie: $100,000

Taxpayers' legal tab for Currie: $100,000


Detroit clerk fires city lawyers, hires private defense team and bypasses City Council OK for bills.


David Josar / The Detroit News


Detroit City Clerk Jackie Currie has spent more than $100,000 in taxpayer funds on a team of private lawyers and advisers to defend her in a lawsuit that accuses her of mismanagement and fraud in the handling of city elections.

Currie incurred the expenses after dismissing city attorneys, who typically defend city employees in lawsuits involving their official actions. She then hired a private attorney to represent her in the contentious lawsuit, which resulted in a criminal contempt of court citation after Currie ignored a court order.

Currie has legal authority to hire outside counsel. The City Council normally must approve expenditures above $25,000, but there hasn't been a council vote because Currie submitted her legal bills in separate invoices below that amount.

...snip

Currie has come under fire over the way she handles absentee balloting and voter rolls in Detroit.

A Detroit News report in October found numerous apparent problems with the performance of her office: legally incapacitated nursing home residents were being coaxed to vote, people were voting from abandoned nursing homes and vacant lots, and the city's voting rolls were inflated with more than 300,000 names of people who had died or moved out of the city. The report also found that Currie's election "ambassadors" -- hired by the clerk's office to help people vote -- had a practice of hand-delivering ballots from senior citizens and disabled voters that were filled out in private meetings with Currie's paid election workers.

Following the stories, the FBI launched an investigation into Detroit voter fraud and got a court order asking that records associated with absentee balloting in the city be seized and preserved.

Earlier, a failed City Council candidate, Maureen Taylor, had sued Currie, alleging her practices were so shoddy that they fostered an atmosphere that could encourage voter fraud.

More: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/METRO/512180311/1003
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. Election fraud is *all* over AAR today -
Thom Hartmann interviewed Mark Crispin Miller on "The Thom Hartmann Show" - visit The White Rose Society Archives to listen to it.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. interviews Harvey Wasserman on "Ring of Fire" today - 3 to 5 pm.

Laura Flanders is interviewing Mark Crispin Miller on "The Laura Flanders Show" tonight!

I am going to try to call into the Laura Flanders show and beg for a weekly segment on election fraud -- we have to keep this front & center everywhere until we shake a 50-State Plan out of Howard Dean.

More! More! More! More!
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Ring of Fire
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
21. Happy Anniversary to the "Daily Thread"
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