Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News WEDNESDAY, 12/12/05

[autorank]

It’s here, now; not over there.
Rejoice at the Shining City on a Hill

http://syrianamovie.warnerbros.com/

This movie is not just about the Middle East.
It's a metaphor for our own situation right there!
Maybe some Saudi film maker will do a film about his
country and call it Ohio-iana

Never forget the pursuit of Truth.

Only the deluded & complicit accept election results on blind faith.

Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News WEDNESDAY, 12/12/05

All members welcome and encouraged to participate.

Please post Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News on this thread.

If you can:

1. Post stories and announcements you find on the web.

2. Post stories using the "Election Fraud and Reform News Sources" listed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x371233

3. Re-post stories and announcements you find on DU, providing a link to the original thread with thanks to the Original Poster, too.

4. Start a discussion thread by re-posting a story you see on this thread.

If you want to know how post "News Banners" or other images, go here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=371233#371391



All previous daily threads are available here:
http://www.independentmediasource.com/DU_archives/du_2004erd_el_ref_fr_thr_calenders.htm

Please

"Recommend"

for the Greatest Page (it's the link just below).

[autorank]

1. SC: America’s Judicial Independence & Elections

Nice speech by a SC Supreme Court justice on the importance of judicial stability and independence. She missed the “money shot” however, despite correct assumptions. The US Supreme Court wavered in 2000 and gave the election to the loser, in more ways than one, Bush. In 2004 the courts in Ohio wouldn’t allow a recount and threatened litigants asking for a recount of the election with jail time if they continued to speak out. We have neither independent judiciary nor free elections. They are out sourced to the machines and endorsed by the courts.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/living/13380498.htm

Posted on Sun, Dec. 11, 2005

America must uphold judicial independence at home, too

She started off with last year’s Ukrainian election, which ultimately led to Mr. Yushchenko’s election as president — but not until the bully boys behind Viktor Yanukovych had tried everything from election fraud to assassination by poison to keep the people’s choice from power.

What saved the day? Well, the “Orange Revolution” in the streets had a lot to do with it, as did international pressure from the United States and others. But ultimately, there would not have been a happy ending for democracy if the Ukrainian supreme court had not stepped in — after the central election committee had refused to hear fraud complaints — and ordered a second runoff election, declaring the results of the crooked first one invalid.

“How did the Ukraine Supreme Court have the courage and the tools to conduct this important judicial review?” Chief Justice Toal asked. “Many credit the... strong decision for the rule of law to their training by a team of American judges and lawyers sent on an outreach mission to newly emerging democracies to school their judges in the art of creating and operating an independent court system.”

[autorank]

2. OH: Voter ID Law Decried by Toledo Blade Editorial

How much can Ohio take. There’s got to be an out migration of knowledge workers and other sources of wealth because it’s getting so crazy. It’s a great state with great people but the Republicans are ruining it. Look at this editorial. It’s very simple, their Voter ID law is based on nothing factual in history and it targets the poor and minorities. Now why would Ohio Republicans do that?


http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051210/OPINION02/512100341/-1/OPINION

Article published Saturday, December 10, 2005

Election bill ill-conceived

<snip>

A bill greased for quick action before the Senate and House includes an identification requirement that will make it harder for some voters to cast ballots in coming elections.

The ostensible reason for the action is voter fraud, even though lawmakers cannot cite any actual cases of voters attempting to vote illegally in Ohio. That's because fraud has never been a problem.

<snip>

Identification requirements are little more than the modern-day equivalent of poll taxes and literacy tests, which once were employed in some states to keep poor, black citizens from voting.

[Wilms]

16. Ohio Senate Rules Committee Ignores all Citizen Input in Passing ID Requir

Ohio Senate Rules Committee Ignores all Citizen Input in Passing ID Requirement in H.B. 3:
CASE Warns of Increased Voter Disenfranchisement, the Dangers of Privately Run Elections, and Cancels the Right of citizens to Challenge Federal Election Results in Ohio courts.

From CASE (Citizens' Alliance for Secure Elections)
Contact:

Phil Fry [phone] [e-mail],
Pete Johnson [phone] [e-mail], or
Susan Truitt [phone] [e-mail]


COLUMBUS, OH - The Rules Committee of the Ohio Senate approved H.B. 3 December 7, 2005, despite two days of strong opposition testimony. The four Democratic committee members refused to take part in the final vote as a protest to the Republican steamrolling the public and their colleagues as well.

HB3 requires a current, government issued ID with a current address and this requirement alone will affect several hundred of thousand voters and disenfranchise many tens of thousands of them. Students, the elderly, youth, and recently moved families will have to produce alternate forms of ID. The result will be confusion, frustration, discouragement, and possibly anger directed toward the Ohio Senators who forced this bill into law.

HB 3 makes it impossibly difficult for voting advocacy organizations to register new voters by making the process extremely slow and expensive and punishing workers who make a mistake with the threat of a felony penalty. Workers who could be working state-wide are now required to register with every Board of Elections in the state, take a test from every board, and return any registration to the board of the newly registered voter. This makes registration drives at gatherings like the Ohio State Fair and similar events impossible.

HB 3 removes a process to audit the electronic voting machines which are prone to errors and susceptible to hacking as recognized by the recent GAO report (see below)

HB 3 cancels our right to challenge federal election results.

The Ohio legislature, while focusing their efforts on prohibiting access to voting, failed to address a more serious concern: Electronic voting Machines. The General Accounting Office, (GAO) recently released a 107 page scathing report* on electronic voting machines in our country. The report supports what CASE has been claiming, that electronic voting machines are not secure, not accountable, not transparent, not accurate, and not certifiable. A bipartisan panel which included both Republican Congressman James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) and Democratic Congressman John Conyers (D-MI) released a joint news release regarding this report. Most community news sources have not made these important findings widely available to the public yet.

CASE advises all Ohio voters to

* call, email, or FAX your State Senator today to tell them not to support HB 3. http://www.senate.state.oh.us/
* attend the Senate session at the Ohio Statehouse Tuesday, December 13, to sit in the gallery while the full Senate considers the passage of HB 3, at 1:30 PM.


snip

http://www.caseohio.org/Documents/HB%203%20Nov%202005/CASE%20PR.html

[Wilms]

17. OH: Some who Testified on HB 3

Some who Testified on HB 3

Norman Robbins GCVC),
Bob Fitrakis (PhD Social Sciences),
Peg Rosenfield (OLWV),
Phil Fry,
Sam Gresham (CC),
Katherine Turcer (OCA)
Marj Creech (J30),
Brian Davis (Northeast Ohio Coalition for the Homeless),
Ann Silverman,
Wilberta Eastman,
Jennifer Brunner (candidate for SOS)
Stanley Milller * (Cleveland NAACP)
Stuart Wright,
Cheryl Subler ( County Commissioners Association of Ohio),
Victoria Parks,
Jocelyn Travis (Greater Cleveland Voter Collation),
Cliff Arnebeck

Links to some of the testimony:

http://www.caseohio.org

[autorank]

3. OH: Democrats have lost Ohio Permanently. Sorry, it’s over.

http://www.alternet.org/rights/29292/

The End of Democracy in Ohio?

By Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman, Free Press. Posted December 12, 2005.

With campaign finance, voter registration, electronic voting, public recounts, district gerrymandering and overall electoral administration now firmly in the pocket of the GOP, and with Democratic opposition that is virtually non-existent on the issue of vote fraud and election manipulation, there is little reason to believe the Republican grip on Ohio will be loosened at any point in the near future.

In traditional terms, the scandal-ridden Ohio GOP would appear to be more vulnerable than ever. Governor Robert Taft has become the only Ohio governor to be convicted of a crime while in office. With an astonishing 7% approval rating, he has been compared to Homer Simpson by the state's leading Republican newspaper. Republican US Senator Mike DeWine appears highly vulnerable. The GOP has never won the White House without winning the Buckeye State.

But HB3 will solidify the GOP's iron grip on the electronic voting process and all that surrounds it. Unless they break that grip, Democrats who believe they can carry any part of Ohio in 2006 or 2008 are kidding themselves.

[freedomfries]

9. it's not over until it's over auto!

PLEASE JOIN DEMOCRATIC STATEWIDE CANDIDATES AND OTHER
PROGRESSIVE GROUPS IN OPPOSITION TO VOTER DISCRIMINATION BILL

Banding together out of concern over voter suppression, Ohio
Democratic candidates for statewide office urged the Ohio
Senate today to vote down a bill with voter suppression
provisions such as stringent ID requirements.

Among the candidates joining together in protest of the bill’s
provisions are Major Paul Hackett and Rep. Sherrod Brown in the
U.S. Senate race; Rep. Ted Strickland in the Ohio Gubernatorial
race; Subodh Chandra and St. Sen. Marc Dann in the Ohio
Attorney General’s race; and Jennifer Brunner in the Ohio
Secretary of State race.

Ms. Brunner initiated an online petition that has generated
hundreds of signatures since Thursday night asking the Ohio
Senate to reconsider provisions of H.B. 3.
http://www.jenniferbrunner.com/petition.asp

[autorank]

15. It will NEVER be over. That was just a wake up call. It's over for now,

j'espere...

[autorank]

4. PA: Not enough time, certification questions—spend $3.9 million, no probl

This article should be read in full. It exposes the total idiocy of some portions of the press in discussing election issues. There is some very good reporting in the local press but this is not an example. Where do these people get all this money to spend. HAVA, the Help Americans Vote Act, the Federal slush fund for Republican voting machine companies. Anybody discussing that story?

http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15737055&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=17785&rfi=6

County task force made right call on voting machines

12/12/06

The report said, "We would be remiss if we did not express our significant concern and angst over the constraints that have been imposed upon us from the outset in terms of criteria to be utilized to certify a system, the consequent delay and lateness in certification of the systems and the resulting brief period of time in which we had to make our recommendations."

But to the task force’s credit, it did not let its frustration stop it from doing its duty. On Wednesday, four of the five members said the county should purchase voting machines made by Election Systems & Software at a cost of about $3.9 million.

The task force’s sole dissenting voice, Democrat Richard Winchester, repeated the concern heard most often with electronic voting machines: the lack of a paper trail. Winchester and many Democrats, including U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., want voting machines that spit out "receipts" showing for whom they voted. The idea is that such receipts would provide protection against Republican-leaning corporations rigging their machines in Republicans’ favor.

[autorank]

5. VA: High Court REFUSES to Recount Paper Ballots (Optiscans)

Well, we began with a SC judge talking about how judges were the stewards of democracy. Here they had a chance, recount all the ballots. Why not? Because they don’t care about democracy. They care about their own political causes, just like Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy, O’Connor, and Rehnquist cared only about their political causes. It’s all a big fat joke to them. See Syriana, apply it to the US and there you have it.

Good night & good luck.


http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2005/122005/12102005/151947

Ballots will not be rescanned

December 10, 2005 12:50 am

deedscreigh2.jpg.jpg

Creigh Deeds
Click for larger photo and to order reprints

mcdonnellbob2.jpg.jpg

Bob McDonnell
Click for larger photo and to order reprints

By CHELYEN DAVIS
By CHELYEN DAVIS

RICHMOND--A three-judge panel dealt a blow yesterday to Democrat Creigh Deeds' efforts to get all ballots recounted in the attorney general's election. (Deeds lost the election by 323 votes)

<snip>

Markow said that to request rescanning all the ballots, the court needed evidence that there was a "significant" likelihood of there being enough miscounted ballots to overturn the election results. Such evidence was not presented, he said.

Seventy-nine localities--just over half the total number in the state--use optical-scan machines, which require paper ballots; others use touch-screen or lever machines, and one uses paper ballots. The touch-screen and lever machines do not produce a paper trail; the only way to recount those votes is to look at the number totals. Optical-scan machines

[Wilms]

6. NY: Supervisors reject voting machine forum

Supervisors reject voting machine forum

By ANDREW BROWN, Dispatch Staff Writer

12/10/2005

At a meeting on Friday, the Madison County Board of Supervisors voted down a resolution that would have allowed for the creation of open forums on the issue.

After a lengthy debate, only five supervisors voted for the measure, which would have called for three open forums in January and February.

snip

"We still have the feeling that having these meetings would confuse the public more than they already are," Costello said.

snip

Before the board voted down the resolution 12 to 5, they also voted against an amendment to the resolution. Introduced by Nelson Supervisor Richard Williams, the amendment called for the forums to be held 30 days before the state certifies machines, instead of the January or February dates.

snip

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15735729&BRD=1709&PAG=461&dept_id=68844&rfi=6

[Wilms]

7. PA: Task force recommends electronic voting system

Task force recommends electronic voting system

Adam Cirucci, Special to The Mercury

12/12/2005

WEST CHESTER -- Four of the five members of the bipartisan Voting System Task Force have recommended that Chester County adopt an electronic voting system, despite its lack of a paper record.

Democratic representative Richard Winchester dissented, citing concerns that a paper trail was needed to reassure county voters that their voices will be heard. Winchester recommended that the county buy some time by maintaining the current punch-card system for another year.

"The difference is my reluctance to accept the reality that is given to us," he said during Wednesday’s session with the commissioners. "Should we move forward in an atmosphere of uncertainty, or see if we can patch together the punch-card system so that it will last another year?"

In addition, Winchester recommended that the county lease an electronic system that is accessible to people with disabilities.

The task force was formed in October to help decide which voting system the county will switch to when it abandons its current system to comply with new federal and state regulations.

snip

http://www.pottstownmercury.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15737062&BRD=1674&PAG=461&dept_id=18041&rfi=6

[Stevepol]

8. Try Monday for today's thread (12-12-05 = Monday). Avoid confusion. n/t

[Peace Patriot]

10. The Election Reform movement is in its infancy, and hubris will get these

bastards in the end. The Election Reform movement is one year old--sprung into life on a large scale by the 2004 election theft. It took Nelson Mandela THIRTY YEARS to get out of jail and become president of South Africa. It took TWO HUNDRED YEARS for black US citizens to obtain full citizenship and voting rights. And before that, it took, I don't know, ten thousand years for human beings to declare that "all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

True, the Bushite fascists are hell bent on undoing ten thousands years of human progress, including all recent gains. But they are virtually alone in the world in doing so. Most other countries are way ahead of us now, in progressive thinking, in devotion to democracy, in transparent elections, in understanding ECONOMIC as well as political democracy, in repairing our planetary environment, in the goal of world peace and international cooperation, in protection of human and civil rights, and in promoting free speech and news media diversity. We share the bottom of the barrel, as to democracy and progress, with countries like Saudi Arabia and North Korea--countries run by religious fanatics, sheiks and despots.

Once the "beacon of democracy"--the place to which the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" fled from the world's tyrannies and oppressions--we're now the world's prime example of the evils of militarism and corporate rule, and LOSS of democracy. I mean, bloody secret prisons in middle Europe where our tyrants Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are torturing god knows whom, for god knows what reasons--unnamed prisoners, sent on black flights to nowhere. Secret vote counting. Secret torture chambers. What next?

But the Bushites' over-reaching will do them in, I think. They have not convinced the American people of anything. All the approval polls and issue polls show that overwhelmingly. The propaganda is NOT working. That's one of the reasons why they had to get control of the election system--that we are mostly a peace-loving, justice-loving people. That, and the incredible power of an American vote, which, used as it was meant to be used, to exercise collective sovereignty over our leaders, has the potential for dismantling these global predator corporations, which have become such a menace to the world, stopping war, and contributing significantly to world peace and justice.

That's something Americans need to know--not just THAT they took our right to vote away, but WHY. Its potential power.

As for the current struggle, we've come A LONG WAY since Nov. 2, 2004, when only a few people were aware of what happened--aware of the details of it. I think many suspected a stolen election, but didn't have the information or the wherewithal to get the information, they needed to confirm their vague suspicions. They were thus left in a state of depression and disempowerment. Also, many had too much simple faith in the election system, in the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, and in our Democratic Party leadership. It's not realistic to expect most people to shed the scales from their eyes on ALL our institutions, all at once. That's what's needed. All our "balance of power" systems failed us, all at once, on Nov. 2, 2004 and afterward. But we cannot expect instant understanding of this--especially since the news monopolies were collusive in the stolen election, and are trying their damnedest to keep a lid on it. The one I keep continuing to hear--that keeps echoing through the months since the election--is, "But the Democrats wouldn't let that happen, would they?" (!@#$%*&^$!!!)

Anyway, election reform movements are afoot, and are fighting hard--educating people, organizing, exposing the fraud, filing lawsuits and pressuring politicians. The good Dems have a bill in the House, Russ Holt's HR 550, that will stop the corporate privatization of our elections in its tracks, and reverse it (changes mandated for '06). Sign the petition at: http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html

Possibly the weakening of the Bush junta with scandal and revulsion at their worst deeds will create conditions to get it passed. Word is most certainly getting around. Opposition to this rigged system is mounting, with election reform battles in many states--struggles that were non-existent before the last election. We now have the GAO report on the horrendous insecurity of our election system in 2004, and dire warnings for future elections.*

Writers like Bob Koehler continue to tell the truth. His column on the recent Ohio election reform initiatives is stunning. Four election reform initiatives predicted to win by 60/40 votes, flipped over on election day to 60/40 LOSSES!--the most audacious flipover yet. (The machines and their masters are now dictating election policy!)

They've gone too far, is my opinion. Hubris is already at work. But I still think it's going to be a long slog to restore our right to vote. And we may have to endure a "selected" War Democrat in '08 before we get there. (Lots of reasons for them to go with a War Dem at that point--need for a military Draft, which Bush can't do; need to start placing the blame for Bush's disasters on the Dems; need to continue big US military presence in the Mideast, to expand the war, etc., etc.). I worry that they're going to install Hitler II right away, rather than after an interim of Dem struggle and civil disorder, but we'll see. A War Dem would give us what may be our only opportunity to get election reform quickly, nationwide. And, frankly, I think we should forget antiwar protests**--even when "Gulf of Tonkin II" is sprung on us--and concentrate solely on election transparency, because that is the ONLY way we can achieve peace, or any reform. Honest elections. (And this is coming from a current, and very old, antiwar protester, going back to 1967!).

**Note: I would never oppose anyone's antiwar protest--and I would join any that are organized. I didn't really mean "forget" them. I just mean, we should concentrate our effort, targeting the MECHANISM of power. Not the effects of power. The MEANS by which we exercise our sovereignty as a people: our right to vote. Without it, we are nearly impotent to bring about change. The other option is widespread, non-violent civil disobedience--the type of movement led by Gandhi and Martin Luther King. But we are not there yet, in my opinion, while we still have a chance to restore our right to vote. The unjust war on Iraq is an effect of our powerlessness. 70% to 80% of the American people oppose it now--and nearly 60% opposed it BEFORE the invasion. And the reason we cannot stop it is that our right to vote has been taken away. Restoring that sovereign power should be our first priority.

-------------

*GAO report on the 2004 election:
For the recent GAO report on the horrendous insecurity of our election system in 2004:
Access to pdf: http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-956
Text only: http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05956.html

Other info.: www.votersunite.org, www.verifiedvoting.org, UScountvotes.org, TruthIsAll.net

-------------

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."--Josef Stalin

[Wilms]

11. CA: S.J. voting machines' fate up in air - No decision made on TSx sy

S.J. voting machines' fate up in air
No decision has been made on TSx system

Greg Kane
Record Staff Writer

Published Monday, Dec 12, 2005

A statewide test in which a Finnish computer expert will attempt to hack electronic voting software would have little impact on San Joaquin County, state and county officials said last week.

California Secretary of State Bruce McPherson invited hacker Harri Hursti earlier this month to test the security of a memory card produced by elections equipment manufacturer Diebold. The test, which will be in Sacramento but has yet to be scheduled, is a response to criticism the cards contain a security flaw that allows outsiders to access and manipulate ballots. Hursti has performed similar tests on elections equipment in other parts of the country.

But those cards aren't used in the ATM-like touchscreen machines San Joaquin County bought from Diebold three years ago, said Deborah Hench, the county's registrar of voters. The county agreed to buy 1,625 TSx machines for $5.7 million in 2002, a fact Hench believes is an advantage over other counties rushing to meet a Jan. 1 federal deadline to have voting equipment accessible to people with disabilities.

snip

McPherson told The Record in November that a decision on TSx certification would likely be made by mid-December. Nghia Ngyuen Demovic, a spokeswoman for McPherson's office, said last week officials are still reviewing the equipment. She couldn't say whether such a decision would be made by the new year.

snip

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051212/NEWS01/512120321/1001

[Wilms]

12. MO: Clerk balks at new equipment

Clerk balks at new equipment
Noren: Mandated technology unreliable.

By RACHEL WEBB of the Tribune’s staff
Published Friday, December 9, 2005

Boone County Clerk Wendy Noren said she will delay buying federally required voting equipment until the technology is more trustworthy.

The clerk’s proposed budget for 2006 includes $888,700 of federal money under the Help America Vote Act for equipment for disabled voters and to alert voters of possible errors in their ballots. That will not cover the approximately $1.6 million needed to buy the equipment, and Noren said she does not trust the reliability of the equipment.

Noren said the equipment needs to be tested and meet high standards before she is willing to invest in a purchase. Instead, she plans to rent equipment for the 2006 elections, Noren told county commissioners yesterday in a budget hearing.

"I believe we’re at least two to three years away from having equipment that is something I believe we can trust completely," Noren said in a telephone interview. "That doesn’t mean that with appropriate administrative controls we can’t mitigate some of the hazards of it."

snip

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Dec/20051209News006.asp

[Wilms]

13. PA: County balks at buying new voting system

Dec. 11, 2005

County balks at buying new voting system

Officials frustrated over rush to upgrade

By Mike Joseph

STATE COLLEGE -- Centre County's top elected official said the county may forgo almost $1 million in federal money for a new electronic voting system rather than accept an unwanted product.

"This is probably one of the most important things we have to do as adults," county Board of Commissioners Chairman Chris Exarchos told about 50 people Thursday night. "I may be putting our $900,000 in jeopardy, but I'm not putting your vote in jeopardy."

His remark reflects growing frustration among county leaders across the state who are facing a federal mandate to upgrade voting systems in time for the May 16 primary election. They say they're being asked to rush to judgment and commit a lot of taxpayer money to buy new systems, even though the Pennsylvania Department of State has so far approved only three systems, with another five awaiting tests.

The counties were expected to contract with a voting machine company by Jan. 1, but the state last week gave them more time. But more time spent choosing a system will mean less time for training on that system before May.

snip

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/13380167.htm

[Wilms]

14. RI: Attorney general to dismiss voter fraud charges

Dec 11, 10:52 AM EST

Attorney general to dismiss voter fraud charges

EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- The attorney general's office has recommended community service for more than half of the 13 people accused of voting outside their home districts during last year's election, spokesman Michael Healey said.

Eight East Providence residents would be sent to the Adult Diversion program rather than face fines and jail time for the voter fraud charges, which are felonies, under the new arrangement.

The defendants were charged last year after Thomas Riley, a Republican member of the Board of Canvassers, filed a complaint sparking a police investigation. The charges included allegations that the defendants registered to vote at business addresses instead of their home addresses.

Riley objected to dismissal of the charges, saying fines and a suspended sentence would've been appropriate.

"These felonies are felonies for a reason," he said. "This does not set an example for Rhode Island voters."

snip

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/RI_VOTER_FRAUD_RIOL-?SITE=RIPRJ&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[MelissaB]

18. Huffington Post: A Conversation With Mark Crispin Miller

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/a-conversation-with-mark-_b_12134.html

Thanks to Stephanie here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5579010