When did you know the 2004 Election had been stolen?

[IndyOp]

It is October 31st and my mind isn't on Halloween. It is on this upcoming Wednesday - November 2, 2005. I know what I think. I know what I want.

What about you?

[IndyOp]

1. I chose "I knew later that evening..." but really I knew 11/3 am --

That night, I just thought that 'something was wrong' - the fact that I had underestimated the Rethug thieves hit me like a ton of bricks the next morning.

:puke:

I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK YOU MOFO RETHUGS!

:nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr:

[mvd]

2. Was it me, or did the whole thing..

come off as a charade? I mean, they waited forever to call some clear Kerry states. I was worried about it before Election Day.

[sepia_steel]

5. Me too.

I thought I was being silly until 'the following week when I learned more'.

[Borgnine]

6. Exactly.

They called several red states first, and kept holding off on announcing blue states that should have been announced at the beginning. The media was clearly trying to frame it as a Bush landslide.

[IndyOp]

7. I wasn't aware before I came to DU - so I didn't see it that way...

I found DU post-theft of '04 election - when I needed to know what wasn't being reported elsewhere, when I needed to talk.

If I had been aware of the theft of 2000 prior to 11/02/04, then I might have seen it more like you saw it.

I wasn't aware of the theft of 2000 until after last year. I had gotten an email about Black Box Voting, but didn't check it out. It didn't seem important compared to getting Dems elected -- :sarcasm:

[Borgnine]

3. I've been thinking a lot about it too.

Halloween brings to mind Halloween of last year, and how we were on the cusp of such a monumental election.

I figured around 2 AM that it was being stolen. I was around for the released exit polling in the middle of the day and the trend was clearly showing Kerry. Yes, I know it could have swung when people got off of work, but when it was well into the evening and even Bush's handlers were bracing him for a loss, it seemed like a sure thing. Then, almost as if by the flip of a switch, it all reversed.

[readmoreoften]

4. I remember when nothing was in but Virginia at 17%

and they were saying it looked like it was going to be 'tough for Kerry'. The Kerry campaign looked depressed and Bush was smiling and shaking hands.

That's when I knew it was rigged.

Then I left the election party and saw Bush giving a big smile and a thumbs up on the cover of the NY Post still dated Nov. 2nd 2004.

That's when I wondered what country I lived in.

[IndyOp]

8. Wow - I think the media are ass-kissing sheep, not in on the

theivery. I think they pushed the 'tough for Kerry' message because that is what they wanted to be true -- and possibly because someone who was in on the theft told them that * would win and, so, wanting to be right they went with that.

Scum.

[Amaryllis]

41. But the question is why would they want that to be true? Look at corporate

ownership of media and then look at the corporations who own voting system companies. REmarkable parallels..

[rumpel]

9. I found it odd on election night, however I only became convinced by

joining DU and participating in the extenisve research.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. All right, who's the two 'not stolen' votes who need to be educated.

Why thwart discussion by vote and go, and not defending your position?

(If this is considered 'calling one out' I apologize, but since it was a vote and run I don't consider it such.)

[Marie26]

21. Hi

I didn't vote, but I'd probably be in the "open mind" but unconvinced group at this point. I'm pretty new to DU & didn't hear anything about the election being stolen in the mainstream media (which doesn't mean it isn't true!) I was wondering if there are any good articles on this topic that sort of lay it all out?

[IndyOp]

28. Marie26 - Welcome to DU!

:hi:

There are many good articles - the issues are really involved so no one or two articles really lay it all out. Just start reading somewhere...

You might start here None Dare Call it Stolen: Ohio, the election, and America's servile press by By Mark Crispin Miller. August 2005 - Harper's Magazine.

Free Press - An Independent Ohio Media Site - Many good articles

Books at Amazon.com:

What Went Wrong In Ohio: The Conyers Report On The 2004 Presidential Election -- by Anita Miller, Gore Vidal (Introduction)

Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? : Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count -- by Steve Freeman, Joel Bleifuss;

The Crisis of American Democracy: The Presidential Elections of 2000 and 2004 -- by David North

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. Hi Marie - you could start by browsing in the Topic Forums/

Election Reform forum. A lot of threads there, many of them touching on or exclusively about the 2004 fraud.

It runs in several different modes, such as machine fraud (vote machines that err only in favor of *, proprietary software on the vote machines and tabulators owned by republican activists, exit polls agree with the actual vote where the vote machines are not touchscreen voting but exit polls favoring Kerry off by 6% in precincts where there was touchscreen voting); counting fraud (counting of ballots is done in locked rooms with no witnesses to verify the count, more votes counted than cast); official tampering and disenfranchisement(eligible voters stripped from voting rolls, provisional ballots not counted, too many vote machines allocated to repub strongholds ensuring quick and easy voting and too few allocated to dem strongholds resulting in hours long waits by people who because of jobs could not afford to stay so long).

Take a deep breath and dive in -- you'll find everything from wild conspiracy theories (which I personally love) to exhaustive statistical analysis which prove there is no way that * could have legitimately gotten as many votes as he did.

Enjoy!

:hi:

[Marie26]

39. Thanks!

Thanks to both of you for the suggestions - I guess I'll just start diving in. Being from Ohio, this is something I really need to learn more about.

[mgr]

11. I knew it later in the evening, but not because of exit polls, but

because of the larger than expected turnout--conventional wisdom is that it is sufficient to overcome republican dirty tricks aimed at suppressing the minority vote; and that the traditional democratic voter base, though larger, it's percent turnout is usually lower than that of republican loyalists.

I don't seem to have a slot.

Mike

[IndyOp]

12. Thanks - mgr - I was hoping everyone would pick the

one that fit them best and then comment just like you did to make clear exactly what they experienced. (There is no way I could come with enough options to work for everyone).

:hi:

[JanusAscending]

14. I voted with the majority

But I REALLY KNEW it was stolen when one of the reporters on a plane with Rove, said that when Rove heard that the exit polls in Ohio had Kerry leading, he became ill! Does anyone but me remember that? I believe he was flying back to DC after having voted in Texas, or maybe made a stopover in Ohio. Reporter said he turned pale, broke out in a cold sweat, and Rove said he felt like he was going to throw up. (not from air sickness either)At that moment I absolutely knew that the "fix" was in, it was a sure thing, and the thought that someone "screwed it up" made him sick, and SCARED out of his wits!! So just think how he will feel when the Prosecuter has him CORNERED??? He'll wish he had on a DEPENDS undergarment, and he'll SQUEAL like the PIG that he is!! Please, if anyone remembers seeing or hearing this, please reply.

[IndyOp]

17. The POWER of Google: "Rove Recounts Election Strategy"

I Googled: Rove election plane sick

...and a miracle!

Rove Recounts Election Strategy
Nov. 7, 2004
<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/07/politics/main654122.shtml>

Rove said he felt sick, then got mad when he started reading exit polls on Election Day as Air Force One returned from a final campaign swing. Surveys of voters just leaving polling places around the nation tilted toward Kerry early in the day and through much of the evening, causing early optimism for a Democratic recovery of the White House.

That faded through the night as exit polls were adjusted to reflect official vote tallies. But the exit poll was still tracking toward Kerry as the president's plane landed at Andrews Air Force Base in suburban Maryland after Bush's quick Election Day stop to thank supporters in crucial Ohio.

"I was on Air Force One, and we were literally on final approach into Andrews," Rove said in another Sunday morning broadcast interview. "The phone connection kept cutting out. I was holding a piece of paper on my knee, trying to scribble it down, holding the phone in the other hand. I got sick as I wrote them down, and then when I looked at them, I got angry, because they simply could not be true."

"I mean, it had us 19 points down in Pennsylvania. It had us 17 points down in New Hampshire. It had us 1 point up in Virginia," Rove said. "I mean, you looked at these numbers, and you realize, this is just insane."

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/07/politics/main654122.shtml>

[JanusAscending]

22. God Bless your "Pea Picken Heart!!!"

Thank you! I knew I was "over the hill" but not losing my mind, ...yet. I usually go straight to Google, and I didn't think of it this time. I was sure someone out there who is as avid a reader, and political junkie as I am, would remember this.:hug: :yourock:

[IndyOp]

25. I had not heard it before -- but it sends chills up and down my spine

and back again to read what Rover said back then. They were down by 19 points down in Pennsylvania, down by 17 points in New Hampshire.

One of the items that I still don't understand - and/or think is a clear indication of the scale of the theft: It wasn't just Mitofsky's exit polls that showed Kerry winning in a landslide, so did the Dem's internal polls, so did the Repubs internal polls, so did Zogby's polls.

I teach stats - you cannot explain all of those polls being wrong with 'inadequate inclusion of Repubs in exit polls' -- 'tis bullshit.

:grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke:

[MelissaB]

33. May I suggest you post this as a seperate thread sometime in the future

for the newbies here.

[Marleyb]

35. Did Kerry know?

I mean how hard would it have been to say something about this...
"exit polls were adjusted to reflect official vote tallies"

How can they write that and just move on?

you can't do that! The whole idea is for the exit polls to validate the election result. When they don't do that, you can't just change the exit polls. That is absurd, and clearly something that the corporate media would have been forced to discuss had Kerry brought it up.

[JanusAscending]

36. PLEASE, Don't blame Kerry!

His lawyers were on it , they helped monitor the recounts. Blackwell, and Ohio Courts shut them down. His Legal staff is still trying to fight this in court so it will never happen again!! As for the MSM? The only person I know of who tried to keep it in the fore front was Keith Olberman on "Countdown" MSNBC......as far as the rest of the media whores? Give ..me .. a ..break ! If you don't know who controls them by now, I would suggest some HEAVY catch up reading (here on DU archives.) We'll help bring you up to speed!:hi: WELCOME by the way !!!

[bananas]

13. You guys just aren't cynical enough

they're going to steal it '06 and '08, too.

[JanusAscending]

15. OH NO THEY WON'T!!!

They will have to do it over all of our DEAD BODIES!!:nuke: I'd be ready to go" Nuklear" on a lot of neocons, as well as some naysayers here on DU!

[FogerRox]

16. in the afternoon- I heard a poll saying Kerry wins the Electorial college

311 or 315 to whatever--- then later
I was at my office in Miramar FLorida-- I had just finished
Coordinating our lawyers-- chasing the Repub challengers-- where ever they showed up- my Poll workers would call me --I would call the lawyers and tell them to go to such & such Precinct. I had the last dinner for poll workers delivered to the last precinct. then, about 8:15 we brought out the TV---- it didnt look right-- But I waited---

then later--

The Kerry Edwards staff in Broward county FLorida met at the Ft Lauderdale
convention center for the VICTORY PARTY---

We were watching CNN---- All the swing states went for Bush--- except for ohio---

I never saw the call for Ohio--- I was so disgusted-- I left

[IndyOp]

19. Ohio wasn't 'called' until 11/3...

It all seems like a dream - nightmare - impossible, just impossible.

How could ANYONE watching that not have gotten the sense that something was wrong, very, very wrong?

:shrug:

[JanusAscending]

24. Reliving the feelings all over again!!

This time I refuse to be sad,.........instead I'll be MAD!! How dare anyone tell us "get over it" Yeah sure we will....... when Hell freezes over. :evilfrown: bushco doesn't realize it yet, but he helped create an ARMY..........to break through his wall of deceit, and like Joshua at Jericho, we'll bring those walls tumbling down. Lie by lie, brick by brick!:patriot:

[BeFree]

18. Welcome to DU, DC Welcome!

That's the kind of spirit I like to see. But careful with the naysayers here, they've helped bury a few DU'ers already, and we need all of us together.

I knew it was stolen, rather, would be stolen in 2003. They rigged things pretty good and they had lots of time in which to rig it. But we are on the trail now, and this forum has taken the lead. As evidence of that look at what has been thrown at us over the last year! And recently some big guns have come in, hoping to throw us off the trail. But we will hunt down and tree the bastards who stole our vote and the only way they succeed is over our DEAD BODIES!

[JanusAscending]

20. I LOVE THIS PLACE !!

I thank you for your Welcome ! To be honest, I do loose patience with some naysayers! I get very suspicious when some one doesn't have a profile, or a star, and then is negative to the nth degree. I promise I'll be more careful.:toast: I would be happy to lay along side most everyone here on DU (dead bodies guys, don't get any ideas!) so they can't get another one over on us!

[Stevepol]

23. I told my friends that Kerry would win but lose due to the DREs

and I told them this well before the election. I was one of those shocked and "stunned" (the adjective used in the newspaper articles in GA when it happened) when the GA 02 fraud took place that saw Roy Barnes and Max Cleland among others go down. That's when I found out about Diebold and I knew from that time on that our democracy was at great risk. I did all I cd think of to make others aware of it (am still trying in whatever ways I can).

But I knew that unless something happened the, 04 election would be lost just as the 02 GA election was lost. I knew that the pre-election polling would favor the Dem, whoever that might be (I wrote as much to the Smirking Chimp site a couple times, at the time I hadn't settled on the Democratic Underground), and the exit polls would favor the Dem (just as they favored Barnes & Cleland), even Kucinich I felt would win the election, but I also knew that electronic voting machines would say otherwise, exactly as happened in GA.

I also think Mondale lost his election in MN due to the ES&S optical scanners and probably a number of other Dem candidates around the country. This electronic voting machine scourge is the worst scam and con game in American history and maybe in world history IMHO.

[IndyOp]

26. Worst scam maybe in world history IMHO - yup. People are dying...

right now.

I didn't know until after the 2004 election about 2000 and 2002. Even with DU, I still feel alone -- we need a much larger % of the population to be aware and fighting this battle.

:kick:

[BeFree]

27. You're on the right track, Stevepol

Rob Georgia, on my mind. It was the first test for the world's biggest scam and it went off with hardly a hitch, encouraging them to go for broke in 2004.

Well, we know a heck of a lot more now, and some states have even passed laws doing away with the sole electronic ballot. They too are on the trail, and as we get more and more people aware and active we are becoming a force that the future will look back at and say: Thank God someone took notice, otherwise this country would be down the drain.

We are the change we've been waiting on, eh?

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. I actually thought we had a chance here in NC because the polls,

though they favored *, were within the margin of error. And we were safe because only 4 of the 100 counties had touchscreen voting.

That was before I knew about the ES&S compilers.

I was cautiously confident when I went to bed, exhausted from hours of going door to door putting out "remember to vote" door hangers.

Next day I woke up -- then when I found out that opti-scan paper ballots were counted by ES&S compilers I really woke up.

[mirandapriestly]

31. I remember before the "results" were in, a magazine

picture (can't remember which one) of Kerry looking "defeated" and Bush looking "victorious" and this was after the election had begun but long before it had been called. God what a sham the whole thing was. I remember Bush calling the press to the White House,also before it was over, and knowing how things were going to turn out, it was all part of the brainwashing process.

[dog_lovin_dem]

32. I knew before hand, but

didn't want to admit it. I remember reading the interview with Gore Vidal where he said that Kerry would win the election but never be allowed to serve in the White House.
I didn't allow myself to believe they'd do it again until early evening on election day, and was completely devastated when Kerry conceded. I will consider Kerry my president at least until Bush is out of office.

[suegeo]

34. 2002 Rob Georgia

Also, there were a number of races in 2002 that had vote totals something like 18188181. Not to mention Norm Coleman.

Figuring they were complicit in the attacks on the country in Sept. 2001, all the Money gone POOF, the bin Laden black sheep story was a pile of guano, the Carlyle group, the locked down Iran-Contra papers, summer isn't a good time to market a war, knowing what Palast reported on in Florida in 2000, I knew they could NOT let go of power.

They'd be strung up if anyone started serious investigations and reported on their crimes.

[JanusAscending]

37. HEH HEH HEH !!

Get the "string" ready baby!! All hell is breaking loose, now that the Senators have discovered their spines!!:applause: :nuke:

[jarnocan]

38. Moscow Times on-line article and a Rutgers Professor

had articles in October 04 discussing who owned the voting machines- reconstructionist and about Dell. etc.
After the right wing pundit Dick Moris' article complaining about the exit polls being 'false' got me really excited.

I am sure you all saw this Government Accountability Office Confirms Fraudulent 2004 election findings!
-------

http://www.freepress.org/department...ay/19/2005/1529
Powerful Government Accountability Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election findings

Quote:
"The government's lead investigative agency is known for its general incorruptibility and its thorough, in-depth analyses...
According to CNN, the U.S. House Judiciary Committee received "more than 57,000 complaints" following Bush's alleged re-election. ....
The non-partisan GAO report has now found that, "some of concerns about electronic voting machines have been realized and have caused problems with recent elections, resulting in the loss and miscount of votes."
The United States is the only major democracy that allows private partisan corporations to secretly count and tabulate the votes with proprietary non-transparent software."


Do you think most people heard this news? another reason why www.worldcantwait.org It's time for a media blitz-tell them to re-consider the facts, one year later!

[Amaryllis]

40. I think you meant to say before 2004, not 2005. I knew when I read

Ronnie Dugger's "How they could steal the election this time" in the August 2004 Nation magazine, and then started watching all the websites like Verified Voting, etc. and saw the tricks that Blackwell and GLenda Hood were up to. You would have had to have been reallly stupid not to know if you were reading those websites. I had already seen Robert Greenwald's "Unprecendented: the 2000 Election" and it was clear they were up to the same tricks pre-2004.