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Six months later, most people don't know about the stolen election. Why..

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European Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:25 AM
Original message
Six months later, most people don't know about the stolen election. Why..
don't the democrats think Bush should at least pay a political price- even if they can't get rid of him. Shouldn't they be hinting election fraud more often, so it becomes public knowledge?
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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Media has drummed into public that Gore and Kerry are pathetic losers
Edited on Mon May-02-05 09:30 AM by wishlist
Until the main stream media gives even a slight bit of credibility or coverage to reports providing evidence of election cheating and stealing, there is no hope to get more than a small number of people to believe Bush was not elected legitimately.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. What I run into when I try to talk to people about this is
1) 'well if it was stolen John Kerry would have said so'
and 2) 'Well if it was stolen Michael Moore would have said so.'

When they go that way, then it becomes a discussion about pragmatic politics and theories rather than a discussion of why in the hell would an election board in Warren County Ohio declare a "level ten" terror alert in order to count the votes in secret.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/10/loc_warrenvote10.html
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. media celebrities will only 'say so' when they are ready for
a full-on assault of character assassination.

Michael Moore, Kerry, those guys only say things either after months of research or else after most of the nation is ahead of them.

They don't lead the way to storm the battlements of secrecy, because there's that risk of never knowing for sure what's on the other side. All assaults, if and when the occur, are careful assaults.
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fighttotheend Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Someone needs to go diggin for some in your face evidence..
I read oh, lets say nov. some time an article came out that in OHIO 4,562 votes were for BUSH but only 628 registered votes in that town, What the HELL, there's the evidence, and I am sure it wasnt just that one town. They rigged the f-ing election, I feel it in my heart, you know how you feel a certain way and you just dont know how to prove it. I wish I could relocate this article and mail it to the Pres. and demand an answer
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. our media need to be fired.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Possibly because
it didn't happen. 2000? I think so. 2004? LOL!! If we had the proof, we would have made use of it. Don't think the Democratic leadership has caved. Look at the magnificent resistance they're putting up in the Senate. They got no ammo for this gun, that's all. They are reluctant to publicly make fools of themselves in a battle they know they will not win.

We got beat, and rather than think the Republicans stole the election, maybe we should figure out just what the Republicans are offering the American voters that they like better than what we've offered them.

Just a thought from a fellow that wants to win the next election.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. A lot of people voted for
Bush because he went to war against Iraq, because Iraq caused 9/11. My friend told me he voted for Bush because things were going okay, and because of 9/11. Stupid, I know, especially because there was a big article in our newspaper which said the Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 well before the election. You can't beat those sheeple who listen to RW radio, because they don't want to know.

zalinda
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. The point is
they voted for Bush. Minds can be changed, but if the RW has really been stealing elections and the MSM has bee covering up for them, well, it's already too late. Might as well move to Sweden.
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organik Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. with that attitude it will be stolen again, and again, and again...
To win the next election, probably a good idea to not allow it to be stolen from you. the 2004 election most certainly was fraudulent, and anybody who follows these message boards and other REAL news sources on the net knows it.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I follow this message board.
I haven't read every thread, of course, but I've read a good deal of them, and the links. We have no real evidence. Just because Bush would do it doesn't mean he did. Without evidence, we're just conspiracy theorists. Most people don't pay any attention to them, and deservedly so.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. you said, "we have no real evidence" ...
that is because the machines, the tabulating programs and the ballots have not been available to be examined. What were we supposed to do, break into all the BoEs and steal the ballots, machines and copies of the tabulating software?

Means, motive and opportunity.

I live in SW Ohio and C. Ellen Connaly an UNKNOWN, I am talkng about I am a dem and I never heard of her, did not get more votes than Kerry in Butler, Warren and Clermont County. There was no level 10 terrorism threat in Warren County. And just because the Warren County Kerry lawyer was to stupid to know that dividing his time bewteen 2 rooms at the BoE is not oversight does not mean Warren County stinks like yesterdays fish.

You want proof? I got it right here...

link
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. That's the core of the problem
If the system is unauditable the results become a tabula rasa. People inclined to see a stolen election are going to see it. People inclined to see a close one that Bush won are going to see that. And there is no real way to prove either position to everyone's satisfaction.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Well, if
you consider that "proof", OK. I looked at your link and saw nothing I have not seen before. Innuendo is simply not proof to any fair-minded person, and that's all that this is.

Would that it were true, but without some hard evidence, we will never convince enough people.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. My link proof was just me being a smartass...
because humor is the best way to get the so-called slackers to look at stuff.

My common sense tells me that C. Ellen Connaly did not get more votes than Kerry in SW Ohio in a down ticket race with an absolutely underfunded unknown outside of the Cleveland area candidate. Lawyers have referred to this anomaly as prima facie evidence.

My common sense tells me that when a county bars all independent observers from watching the tallying of votes and lies repeatedly about why, and when this lockdown was planned that they have something to hide.

My common sense tells me that a Greene County BoE being left unlocked on a Friday night immediately before a recount is to begin smacks of impropriety. When lights are observed being turned on and off after hours at said BoE I assume it was not ghosts responsible. Call me reality based.
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Now this is a familiar tune...
Heya forgethell

How did you ever make out with those recount witness reports?
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. I've
read all links that have been recommended to me. I remain unconvinced, as I have to apply logic, and a little common sense to them.
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. What about the eyewitness reports.
Did you see evidence of an illegal recount in Ohio?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. My disucsions with 2 in the Kerry camapign makes me think I am
on the right track--

Its about election fraud and its about running dems with spine in 2006.

David Navarro, Kerry 04--spoke at Camp Wellstone NJ march 4-6.
Agreed with me during a talk on Election fruad 04 that you have to think election reform first--because of the fraud issue in 04.
AND then run some principled Dems in 06.

Gotta have both --not work harder without reform-- and not vice a versa.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
46. wake up my friend or you can forget about 06 and 08
the truth is the republicans have a monopoly on secret vote counting. your statements indicate you have not investigated the facts.

the democrats will never win again by simply getting more voters to vote for them. the system must be changed. secret vote counting must be stopped.

wake up!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. About half the people are happy with the outcome
What would motivate someone who voted for Bush to question the results of the election?

Until somebody comes forward with irrefutable concrete evidence of a broad conspiracy to alter the vote counts, all the anecdotes and number-crunching looks to a Bush supporter look precisely what one would expect from a sore loser.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. no they're not
when half the eligible people don't vote

and election fraud occured

and the president's approval rating is well below 50%



you can't tell me that "about half" of the people are happy with the results of the election
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Looks like I just did, garybeck
Edited on Mon May-02-05 12:22 PM by slackmaster
when half the eligible people don't vote

Their failure to perform their civic duty does not constitute fraud. It's unfortunate that they gave up their one chance to have a real impact on the election, but at this point their opinion doean't have anything to do with how the election turned out. I have to assume they didn't give a shit in November, so why should they give one now?

and election fraud occured

As it does in every election. As Senator Kerry has said, there isn't evidence that enough fraud occurred to alter the outcome of the election.

and the president's approval rating is well below 50%

That doesn't really have anything to do with how people voted in November. :crazy:

you can't tell me that "about half" of the people are happy with the results of the election

Yes I can, yes I did, and yes I'll do it again. The election was close. The nation is split about 50/50. About half the people got their way in the election. Sure, some of them are pissed and realize they made a mistake, but that doesn't alter the fact that just about half the people who bothered to vote voted for Bush.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. uh...
Edited on Mon May-02-05 12:57 PM by garybeck

your comments in regular text, my replies in bold...

Their failure to perform their civic duty does not constitute fraud. It's unfortunate that they gave up their one chance to have a real impact on the election, but at this point their opinion doean't have anything to do with how the election turned out. I have to assume they didn't give a shit in November, so why should they give one now?


still, your post said, "about half the people" it didn't say "half the people who voted."




As it does in every election. As Senator Kerry has said, there isn't evidence that enough fraud occurred to alter the outcome of the election.


the level of fraud that occurred in the 2004 election was on a much higher level than ever before. Kerry's remarks do not have anything to do with what actually happened. this has been discussed ad-nauseum here before so I'm not going to get into it here with you now. but if you are going to judge the level of fraud based on Kerry's remarks, I think your research is flawed.



and the president's approval rating is well below 50%

That doesn't really have anything to do with how people voted in November.


again, your comments were not about how people voted in November, they were about NOW. And furthermore, there is significant evidence that if all the votes were counted properly, we'd all be talking about an electoral landslide, a 3% popular vote victory, and the first time an incumbent wartime president ever lost. so it is my opinion that based on the facts your entire premise is not correct.


and by the way, if you're looking for "irrefutable evidence" of a conspiracy, it is out there. just because Kerry isn't yiping about it doesn't mean it's not there. I'd start with the Snohomish County investigation. Then check out the 7 sworn affadavits of recount observers who saw stickers on the kerry ballots, and the election officials were forced to admit this publicly. Or how about the thousands of phantom votes that are in the official canvass report in NM? I could go on. It's out there. As has been stated my numerous trial attorneys, people have been convicted of murder on less evidence than we have.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That kind of seige mentality will not win us any future elections
Edited on Mon May-02-05 01:24 PM by slackmaster
It's really sad to see intelligent people in such a state of denial about our loss.

Sheesh, some people don't even trust the man they voted for.

I trust John Kerry's judgement.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I guess you just don't want to look at the facts
the denial is not about the loss

it's about the lack of integrity of our election system
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I've never denied that there are problems with the system
I live in San Diego, where several thousand votes in our mayoral election were not counted because (depending on your POV) either the people were too dumb to follow instructions, OR the courts thwarted the will of the people by improperly ordering their votes not counted on a technicality.

I know there are problems at all levels, but blaming it all on someone else is not going to result in any positive change. We have to take care or ourselves, people.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. well I'd suggested you look more closely
at the facts and evidence, and not just blindly follow Kerry. When 80% of the votes were counted in secret by Republican controlled companies, it is our duty to look into the facts. The foremost issue is that it's unconstitutional in most states to have secret vote counting. I'm not just "blaming others." I'm looking at facts, as are many other people on this board.

the bottom line is that our election system has been sold off to private companies who refuse to uphold our constitutional right to open and transparent elections. if you think that is a good thing, then so be it. I don't. And I would submit to you, that if you want the candidate who gets the most votes to win, whoever it is, that you look into this and not just blindly follow Kerry.

here are some basic facts that you might be interested in if you care about the integrity of our election system:

• Eighty percent of all votes were counted on electronic voting machines made by one of two companies - Diebold and ES&S. The president of Diebold and the vice president of ES&S are brothers and both companies are contributors to the Republican Party. Walden O'Dell, the CEO of Diebold, is a top level contributor to the Bush campaign and has spent time on President Bush's ranch in Texas. In a 2003 fundraising letter he wrote that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska used to be the president of ES&S, who manufactured the voting machines that were used in his own election to his Senate seat.

• Diebold and ES&S insisted on manufacturing computerized voting machines that produce no paper ballot and can not be recounted. They claimed it was not technically possible to produce paper ballots, although Diebold also makes bank ATM machines, which do produce paper receipts. They also refuse to release the computer code that counts the votes, for “proprietary” reasons. Computer experts have been shown the code and written reports about huge security problems stating it would be very easy to manipulate the vote totals without anyone knowing. One computer security professor said that if the program was submitted to him as a project, he would have given it an “F.” The state of California outlawed Diebold voting machines because of their lack of security and paper printout. A bill was introduced into Congress in 2002, to require a paper ballot printout on all voting machines. The leadership of the Republican Party prevented the bills from coming to a vote. No explanation has been given.

• Several programmers and managers at Diebold have previously been convicted of computer fraud.

• Thousands of complaints about electronic voting machines malfunctioning on election day have been logged. Nearly every reported problem made a mistake that favored President Bush. • Exit polls are used internationally to identify problems with elections. On election day, the exit polls showed Kerry winning both Ohio and Florida. In Florida, Diebold and ES&S machines were used to count the votes. Many statistical experts have published reports stating the exit poll data shows an investigation is needed. The company that conducts the exit polls released a report saying that the polls were off because Kerry voters were more willing to respond to the exit polls, with no explanation why or any information to back the claim. A consortium of PhD experts has released a report refuting their explanation, demanding an independent investigation.

• Systematic voter suppression has been documented, particularly in Ohio. More voting machines were placed in Republican strongholds and less were placed in Democratic areas. Long voting lines, up to 10 hours, were only seen in Democratic, minority, and low income areas, while Republican and higher-income areas had no lines. In some areas, the voter registration list from 2000 was used, and anyone who had registered since then was forced to use a provisional ballot. People were phoned and sent letters telling them their voting location had changed when it had not. A lawsuit has been filed in regards to widespread voter suppression in Ohio. • Ken Blackwell, the Secretary of State of Ohio, is both the overseer of elections and the head of the re-elect Bush campaign in the same state. This is like allowing the coach of a team to be the referee in an important game. Blackwell has been sent a letter signed by several Congressmen asking him specific questions about the voter suppression and other things that went on in Ohio on election day, and he was asked to come to Washington DC to testify about this information. Blackwell ignored the request to testify and has not answered a single question asked in the letter.

• There are many investigations, inquiries, and lawsuits underway. A witness has signed a sworn affidavit stating that he was paid to write software code that would swing the election to the Republican candidate. Recount observers in Ohio found stickers covering up Kerry votes on ballots. Triad employees have admitted on video tape that they illegally manipulated the machines during the recount. The Government Accountability Office is conducting an investigation and official requests for investigations have been sent to the House Judiciary Committee and the Attorney General. Hopefully the truth will come out.


and if you haven't heard, Republican Congressman Peter King was caught on video tape before the election saying "we won. the election is over. the only thing left is the counting. and we'll take care of the counting."

all this, and the mountain of evidence that can be easily found, points to the need to look beyond Kerry's concession and towards the facts. it's not just about 2004. it's about the future of our elections, all of them. do you want private companies who are funded by Republicans and defense contractors to be counting your votes in secret? I don't.

peace
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vince3 Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. If the Dems owned the voting machines...
...and the vote-counting machines and the central tabulators, and told the republicans that the republicans had lost two straight close presidential elections, the right wing would be screaming bloody murder. After watching the deceit of this never-elected Bush crew for four years, another stolen election, especially when they had the means to do so, is certainly probable.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. yeah, that's what I say to republicans who try to argue with me
if the shoe was on the other foot, privately owned companies who contribute exclusively to the democrats were manufacturing the voting machines with secret source code, they'd be

SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER

and if they deny it, they are lying.

if that were the case, they would be justified in screaming bloody murder.

because the shoe is on our foot we are justified.

if they still don't get it, they're a waste of time.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Kerry is a former prosecutor not a cop...
Anyone who understands the limits of law enforcement investigation would realize there was no legal way to investigate and prove tabulation fraud. No wire taps, no examination of ballots for lack of fingerprints or multiple ballots with the same set of fingerprints, no examination of the proprietary tabulation programs. No way to oversee pre-election tabulation testing. No way to ensure the chain of command of the actual ballots.

People who reject the idea of tabulation fraud are the ones who do not understand programming.

Independent observers and bipartisan BoE officials? There is literally nothing to see when computer programs tabulate votes.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Thru out the history of the USA
An incumbant gets his may/june approval rating in NOV. Bush was at 44%.

He didnt win.

this holds true for peace time war time---he didnt win.
And then if you look at LBJ not running---well------------------
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. This isn't a true statement
Do you approve or disapprove of the way Johnson is handling his job as President?

Questionnaire: The Gallup Poll #690
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/04/1964-05/04/1964
Questionnaire Sample Size: 3494

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 3494


Scale % N
Approve 75.13 2625
Disapprove 10.13 354
No opinion 14.74 515

Lyndon Johnson would win 61% of the vote.


Do you approve or disapprove of the way Nixon is handling his job as President?

Questionnaire: The Gallup Poll #854
Questionnaire Field Date: 06/20/1972-06/20/1972
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1535

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 3390


Scale % N
Approve 56.34 1910
Disapprove 32.77 1111
No opinion 10.12 343
No Code or No Data 0.77 26


Richard Nixon would win 61% of the vote.

Do you approve or disapprove of the way Ford is handling his job as President?

Questionnaire: The Gallup Poll #953
Questionnaire Field Date: 06/08/1976-06/08/1976
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1524

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 2680


Scale % N
Approve 45.45 1218
Disapprove 39.93 1070
No Opinion 14.63 392

Gerald Ford would win 48% of the vote.

Do you approve or disapprove of the way Carter is handling his job as President?

Questionnaire: The Gallup Poll #155G
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/13/1980-05/13/1980
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1582

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 2819


Scale % N
Approve 38.28 1079
Disapprove 50.76 1431
No Opinion 10.96 309

Jimmy Carter would win 41% of the vote.


Do you approve or disapprove of the way Ronald Reagan is handling his job as president?

Questionnaire: The Gallup Poll #234G
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/18/1984-05/21/1984
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1516

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 2656


Scale % N
Approve 53.60 1424
Disapprove 38.04 1010
No Opinion 8.36 222

Ronald Reagan would win 60% of the vote.

Do you approve or disapprove of the way George Bush is handling his job as president?

Questionnaire: May Campaign Benchmark
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/18/1992-05/20/1992
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1081

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 1748


Scale % N
Approve 41.28 722
Disapprove 51.63 902
DON'T KNOW/REFUSED 7.09 124

George HW Bush would get 37% of the vote.

Do you approve or disapprove of the way Bill Clinton is handling his job as president?

Questionnaire: May Wave 1
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/09/1996-05/12/1996
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1001

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 1001


Scale % N
Approve 54.73 548
Disapprove 38.84 389
DON'T KNOW/REFUSED 6.43 64

Bill Clinton would win 49% of the vote.


We have a few from 2004

Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?

Questionnaire: June Wave 1
Questionnaire Field Date: 06/03/2004-06/06/2004
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1000

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 1002


Scale % N
Approve 48.75 489
Disapprove 49.15 493
DON'T KNOW 1.33 13
REFUSED 0.78 8


Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?

Questionnaire: Gallup Poll Social Series: Values and Beliefs
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/02/2004-05/04/2004
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1000

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 1000


Scale % N
Approve 48.51 485
Disapprove 48.28 483
DON'T KNOW 2.57 26
REFUSED 0.64 6


Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?

Questionnaire: May Wave 2
Questionnaire Field Date: 05/21/2004-05/23/2004
Questionnaire Sample Size: 1002

Question Mean: N/A
Question Total N: 1002


Scale % N
Approve 46.97 471
Disapprove 48.92 490
DON'T KNOW 2.48 25
REFUSED 1.63 16


George W. Bush would win 51% of the vote.

His polling numbers don't seem impossible when in the context of other incumbents.

It seems some presidents win less than their May/June approval number, and others win more. I don't really see a pattern or why this is some magic point in the campaign.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. thank you for proving my point
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Proving what?
That sometimes presidents outperform their May/June approval number and sometimes they don't?

What does that prove?
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Eligible people
who don't vote are not entitled to have their opinions respected by anyone. They may not have voted for Bush, but they didn't vote for Kerry, either.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's the media, stupid....
sorry about the cliche, and I'm not calling YOU stupid...

but the answer to your question is that the media is responsible.

like it or not, most politicians actually get their news the same way most people do. as we all know, the problems with the election were blocked from all the mainstream news outlets, even the "liberal" ones like NYT and even NPR.

If there were MSM reports of election fraud you'd bet that the dems would be hopping up and down.

They just don't know.

And they're reluctant to believe us when we send them info about it, because they've been led to believe it's all a bunch of wacky conspiracy nuts.

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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. Dude....
4 years since 911 same BS different story.
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. I know about the stolen election. And everywhere I go
I feel it, and speak it, and it is my reality. I'm living in New Times, and I am possessed by an incredible rage. The United States has been murdered. I will find a way to help restore it. I will continue to vote, but I have zero faith in any institution anymore. Everything has been successfully co-opted. Everything is a lie. There are no leaders, there are no moral men, there are no truths in this nation anymore. But there is me, and I am filled with bitter rage, and I will find a way to restore the United States of America.
I've never been this way. Not even in my twenties. I'm kind of a liberal militarist patriot, and I've always felt like the system eventually rights itself and moves forward. I've always thought there was a blind justice grinding slowly away somewhere in our core, that protected us from the worst of ouselves. Now, I think we've been conquered and gutted by Karl Rove.

I will find a way.

:mad:
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. We Gotta TELL THEM!!!
TELL THEM!
TELL THEM!
TELL THEM!



TELL THEM!
TELL THEM!
TELL THEM!

Available at The Protest Store

TELL THEM!
TELL THEM!
TELL THEM!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. Because nobody has come up with the proof. It is mostly here-say
and opinion.

Yes some lines were longer, some black folk got vetted for felony convictions while Hispanics did not, some races outcomes were changed by boundary changes to the electoral districts that changed the nature of the race in favor of Karl Rove.All those things have been proven. At at the state level many, many people are looking to election reform.

And yes the catholic church was encouraged to push their church goers into voting against abortion and to embarrass Kerry. And yes black church elders encouraged their flock to vote against gay marriage. And in Ohio that resulted in 6 extra % of black voters voting for Bush. THAT IS BIG!

Most of the election was stolen by the 20 year plan to change the hearts and minds of Americans. By wedge issues. By switching and baiting issues.

We talk about the election being stolen in those ways and others all day long on this board. Because there is evidence of all those things.

Also the wars (look over here..forget about domestic issues)is a trick.. the increase in patriotism. All of it. Tricks and lies and they have been going on in elections forever.. just never so well organized and never so effectively.

We talk about the election and how to avoid hearts and minds of Americans being stolen.. all day long.

You just want to talk about your pet issue and without proof (on diebold voting machines) the story goes away.

We know the election in 2000 was taken. Because Democrats didn't have enough balls to put a stop to the games repukes were playing with judges.

We are working at making sure the next election is not 'stolen' (hearts and minds or any other way). We are looking at real ways to take the country back. We are looking into our own souls and seeing if there isn't anything that we could do differently. We are grieving the loss and accepting the situation and saving our strength for the fights that there is actual evidence of and that can therefore be won or taken back in the next few years. It is a slow & long slog. Bush will not be impeached for electoral fraud because there is no evidence of it. Just dirty tricks and politics and mind games with the American public.




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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. Yes, even republicans know it was stolen
However as far as they're concerned, they just like to "win at any cost!" even if they have to cheat!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. "Management" has not instructed the news Mandarins to inform us.
That's what its about. There is more than enough to blow people's minds just with the statistical analysis. Look at TIA, nailed it cold but it's not time for * to be "resigned." When it is, "management" will open the CM media floodgates. Until then, we need to keep the fires burning.
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Filius Nullius Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
38. The DNC is gutless, that's why!
Edited on Mon May-02-05 10:53 PM by Filius Nullius
The reason why most people don't know about the stolen election is that neither Kerry, the DNC nor any major Democratic elected officials will come right out and say that the we were ripped off. They should insist on a full investigation by the Justice Dept. and FBI. USCountVotes.org's recent report is grounds enough for an investigation. Statistics are used all the time to prove cases in civil actions. The Republicans can spend a decade and well over $40 million investigating Clinton over a failed real estate deal and a sexual indiscretion, turning up nothing of any consequence, but the Democratic Party can't summon the intestinal fortitude to demand an investigation of what amounts to TREASON? What kind of a knock-kneed, pusillanimous excuse for a political party is this, anyway?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Filius Nullius Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. No "smoking gun"? Nothing to investigate?
You don't have to have a "smoking gun" to have an investigation. Was there ever a "smoking gun" in Whitewater? Absolutely not. There wasn't even one after the investigation, let alone before it began, and it was about some paltry land deal gone bad that occurred before Clinton became president, not possible treason.

Be that as it may, there is plenty to investigate with respect to the 2004 presidential election. Hopefuly, an investigation by the Justice Dept. and FBI would turn up multiple additional "smoking guns."

But let's look at some of the things we do know that justify an investigation. Just for starters, what about the 5 percent difference between the exit polls and the reported results? Multiple reputable statisticians have now said that this is a virtual statistical impossibility. This would be enough to cast very heavy doubt on an election occurring anywhere else in the world. Why not here? If anything, we have the most sophisticated exit polling in the world. Exit polling was practically invented in this country, and it has been continuously perfected in election cycle after election cycle for at least fifty or sixty years. Why is it suddenly invalid only in the U.S.?

What about the RABA Technologies report on the Diebold AccuVote TS DRE Voting System dated January 20, 2004, which was commissioned by the Dept. of Legislative Services of the Maryland General Assembly? It reviewed, and extensively commented on, the previously issued report by Avi Rubin of Johns Hopkins University, et al. (commonly known as the “Rubin report” or “Johns Hopkins report”) and the paper by Science Applications International Corporation (generally known as the “SAIC report”), both of which had previously identified extremely serious security flaws in the Diebold AccuVote TS DRE voting machines and the GEMS central vote-tabulator program.
The Director of RABA, computer security expert Dr. Michael A. Wertheimer, put together a "Red Team" of computer security experts, who were directed to attack the software and hardware in the Diebold voting system and report their results to the state. Among the RABA findings were seven vulnerabilities of the GEMS database, which begin at the bottom of page 20. Note in particular vulnerabilities 2 and 5:

"2. Modify GEMS software and/or election database on LBE server. Given physical access to the server, one can insert a CD that will automatically upload malicious software, modify or delete elections, or reorder ballot definitions. The problem is that the server enables the 'autorun' feature."

"5. Modify election database. Given either physical or remote access (see below) it is possible to modify the GEMS database. Because both the database password and audit logs are stored within the database itself it is possible to modify the contents without detection. Furthermore, system auditing is not configured to detect access to the database."

These are only two of seven serious vulnerabilities identified by the RABA team in the GEMS software. They also found a number of serious security flaws in the software that runs the Diebold AccuVote TS DRE voting machines. These vulnerabilities were not fixed before the 2004 presidential election and are reason enough for an investigation. But there is much more.

In view of these vulnerabilities, what about having a felon who was convicted of computer embezzlement in charge of software development at Diebold (Jeffrey Dean)? Dean pleaded guilty to 23 counts of embezzlement that court records say involved "sophisticated" manipulation of computer accounting records, including the planting of “back doors” in his software, which enabled him to access the accounting records and siphon off funds without being detected. According to the findings of fact in case no. 89-1-04034-1 (King County, Washington):

“Defendant’s thefts occurred over a 2 1/2 year period of time, there were multiple incidents, more than the standard range can account for, the actual monetary loss was substantially greater than typical for the offense, the crimes and their cover-up involved a high degree of sophistication and planning in the use and alteration of records in the computerized accounting system that defendant maintained for the victim, and the defendant used his position of trust and fiduciary responsibility as a computer systems and accounting consultant for the victim to facilitate the commission of the offenses. "

What about the secret two-character switch that Bev Harris has identified in Diebold's GEMS central tabulator software. According to Harris, GEMS has two vote-tabulating tables that are normally linked and contain the same data. However, a secret two-character switch turns this connection on and off. When off, the two tables are completely decoupled. Interim reports during the election draw data from the first table to permit spot checks of real election results. However, the final election summary report is drawn from the second table (a second set of "books," if you will), which can be altered manually or by malicious software. There is no reason for this second table to be in the software, except to permit tampering.

What about the audit log entries that disappeared from the central tabulator software in King County, Washington on the night of a primary last fall? Bev Harris has documented an erasure that occurred in the office of King County, Washington Elections Supervisor Dean Logan of at least three hours of the audit log on September 14, 2004, the night of a primary held in King County. Harris obtained printouts of summary reports that were run at 10:34 p.m., 11:38 p.m., 12:11 a.m., 12:46 a.m., and 1:33 p.m. (there are actually no entries from 9:52 p.m. until 1:31 a.m.). The reason it is possible to say with complete certainty that they were run at those times is that each of the reports was signed by Elections Supervisor Dean Logan and bears the original date and time stamp showing that it was run then.

What about the posting of an internal Diebold memo on its own FTP site that says they had a routine practice of not securing the audit logs and of changing the software after it was checked and certified? Diebold will tell you that it is impossible to alter the audit log. But Harris has posted a memo by Diebold chief engineer Ken Clark dated October 18, 2001, in which he (i) admits that it can be done, (ii) discusses how Diebold employees might get around questions put to them about the problem by the Independent Testing Authority, Metamor (now Ciber), and (iii) says that “King County is “famous” for it.”

Diebold representatives will blithely state that their software is secure because it employs password protection. However, Harris found that the user name was often simply the default user ID, "Admin," and that the standard password was "1111." In other cases, passwords were frequently something obvious, such as the name of the county using a particular software build. Diebold also made user ID and password information readily available in downloadable manuals and other documents that it posted on its FTP site. In some cases this information was also available in the developer's comments within the downloadable source code on the FTP site.

Although I am an attorney, I do not claim to be an expert in election law. Nevertheless, I feel certain that the King County erasure is a violation of state and federal law. It may be possible to break this wide open if Supervisor Logan can be given limited or full immunity in a congressional or criminal proceeding in exchange for (i) admitting that he either personally made the changes or knowingly permitted them to be made, (ii) providing details about the changes that were made, (iii) telling why he did it, (iv) revealing who told him about the two-character switch and other security holes in the GEMS software and (v) identifying the person or persons who induced him to make the changes or to look the other way while someone else was making them.

I could continue, and I am sure that others have many other similar incidents or circumstances that are deserving of investigation.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
43. Most people watch TV news.
The democrats are afraid of looking bad. You can't say they don't have grounds for fear, given our slut media.
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
47. People don't even know
what they don't know. People who get their "news" from tv and newspapers have no way of knowing what's really going on.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0429-29.htm

News as Commodity + Pervasive Information Control = Loss of Democracy
by Joseph Miller

We’re more and more at risk of losing our democracy. The executive, legislative, and judicial branches of our government are supposed to act as checks and balances on one another, but increasingly don’t. The First Amendment intended that a free press provide an additional level of checks and balances, but this too is increasingly failing.

As Bill Moyers and many others have noted, democracy can’t survive unless the press -- the print and broadcast media -- do their job. Democracy can’t survive unless citizens have access to honest information about the stories that really matter: stories about the
real actions and policies of our government and corporations; about the validity of justifications offered for going to war; about what’s really happening in our economy and the environment; about the fairness and honesty of our elections.
The list goes on and on.

So why aren’t the mainstream news media doing their job? There are at least seven broad and interrelated reasons...

<snip>

Let’s switch our focus, and talk about five things we can do to regain our democracy, our country.

Democracy is based upon informed citizen action. Many of us receive much of our information from the online alternative and independent media. We each need to identify the sites we view as responsible, reliable, and trustworthy...

-Cont.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0429-29.htm
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