The entire vote accuracy/fraud issue depends on the NH recount

[Jersey Devil]

I am assuming that Nader paid the $2,000 and read yesterday they were sending the check though I don't know if that actually happened. Assuming it did and assuming a recount is done in NH, I believe that the entire controversy depends on the results of that recount (examination). Since NH is a small state with relatively few voters and used all optical scan machines a recount should be fast and easy to do.

It is really very simple. Kerry won NH by 1% or less and exit polls had him ahead there by about 15%, the largest margin for Kerry in all the exit polls.

If after the recount the margin of actual victory remains at or near 1% the entire issue is dead as a doornail.

If there is a significant difference on the recount and Kerry is much closer to the exit poll numbers the entire election will be questioned and this issue will blow sky high.

That's really all there is to it.

[ramblin_dave]

1. The exit poll oddities are only one issue

and NH may not prove anything. It's true that it could undermine efforts to get recounts elsewhere, so it is a risk to these efforts. But rigging in FL and OH is more probable and does not depend on exit polling alone. We need recounts everywhere we can get them.

[Jersey Devil]

2. A significant change in NH would bring Kerry out of his cave

That is the upside. But I am convinced that the downside is that thereafter all the other questions would be brushed aside as tinfoil based on the NH result. I can hear it now from the talking heads:

"See, they said the exit polls were accurate and the results skewed. But the recount in NH proves these claims are bunk and that it was the exit polls that were wrong all along."

[txindy]

15. Well, the plus side is that it is Nader who is questioning NH's results

We can still check Ohio closely in the future, but since Nader can't be involved there (he wasn't on that state's ballot), that makes them independent investigations. We can't control what the talking heads say. If they're going to link NH and Ohio, they will. That won't stop the process, though.

[John Q. Citizen]

44. Jersey Devil, bringing Kerry "out of his cave"

is down towards the bottom of my list. I'm of the opinion that not giving the RW a target (a la Gore) is more important than reassuring the faithful and the wavering faithful.

I look at it like this. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by making sure our elections are legit.

[IAMREALITY]

3. NH Is Very Important To The Credibility of Our Theories

As a quick thought,

Yes, most of us are convinced that OH and FL were rigged, but in order for our overall theories to hold water we have to also believe that far more then just those 2 states alone were rigged for 2 reasons. First, if we want to believe that the Fraud can be evidenced back to the exit polls, there were many more exit polls off then just FL and OH. That should mean that those other states should have discrepancies as well in the vote tally, if we are convinced the FL and OH tallies are off. Secondly, though it would be nice in itself, we are looking for more than just OH or FL to turn blue. Bushie got a 4 million vote or so Popular Vote win. That is one of the most glaring issues. If we are to believe in the 'Stolen' election theory (As I do), then we must believe it was a widespread plan to not only get Bushie the Electoral College, but a Mandate as well. In order for that to occur, the padded tallies would obviously have had to occur in far more then FL and OH. That is where NH comes in. Regardless of the Kerry win, NH has all the things we are looking for. Op Scan, Way skewed Exit Polls, and a prime place to pad some votes. If there was any state to use as a quick 'litmus' test, NH could very well be it. That is our hope, and we will see what happens.

[Jersey Devil]

5. That's how I see it as well

It is the best place to start for many reasons and a changed result will cast the entire election in doubt, not only in the battlegrounds but everywhere due to the "mandate" factor.

It also would make it more diabolical because cheating in all states would mean that not only was there cheating but that a plan was in place to cheat all along and not just improvised at the last minute after seeing crappy exit polls.

[TruthIsAll]

22. DON'T PIN YOUR HOPES ON NH. IT COULD BE A ROVE TRAP.

NH IS A SMALL STATE. IT MEANT NOITHING TO ROVE. ONLY 4 EV.

FOCUS ON THE CRIME. DO NOT BE DIVERTED. THEY ARE VERY CLEVER. THEY MAY BE CREATING A STRAWMAN IN NH.

REMEMBER. IT'S FLORIDA AND OHIO AND A FEW OTHERS.

DO NOT FOCUS ON NH. YOU DO SO AT YOUR PERIL.

I DO NOT TRUST NADER.

[Jersey Devil]

23. NH makes more sense than you think

Consider that Bush thought he was going to lose both Ohio and Fla just before the election. He fixes those election night but isn't sure it is enough.

The only other way he could have won was to take Wis, Iowa, NM Mich, PA and NH, creating an end run.

He damned near took all of them but didn't fix them enough. Yes, I think NH is the key and I think we will find something there.

[Cronus Protagonist]

40. So why does NH make more sense than FL of OH?

Surely it would make more sense to call for recounts and/or fraud investigations in states where we have evidence of such.

And your claim that OH or FL isn't enough is, prima facie, ludicrous. If Bush lost Fl he would lose the election. And if he lost OH, the same would happen. No other states would need to be tampered with.

If you were a crime investigator, you would be going after the teller for stealing a dollar while the bank manager is embezzling millions.

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[bullimiami]

16. iamreality. well said. i have nothing to add.....................nt

[philaguy]

29. Here's my problem...

"in order for our overall theories to hold water we have to also believe that far more then just those 2 states alone were rigged for 2 reasons"

And how many people in how many places would that require? The thing is that I see lot of things that can make a person go "hmmmm", but I have to wonder about what kind of distributed cooperative effort among how many people would be necessary.

When you are going to do something wrong, there is a limit to how many people you can reasonably have involved. At a certain point, it is inevitable that somebody will talk, or someone will be solicited and refuse noisily.

You need those little people, like Eugene Hasenfus from Iran-Contra, who simply don't have that much at stake in the overall plan to keep quiet. That's a very difficult thing to do.

[newyawker99]

31. Hi IAMREALITY!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Cronus Protagonist]

34. The padded PV is the result of vote fraud, not the intention

In fact, it's one of the clear pieces of evidence we have FOR vote fraud because the entire world knows Bush didn't have the votes and is not that popular.

In order to manufacture votes in the swing states, the popular vote will swing along with the manufactured votes, obviously.

Checking a state where there is little to no evidence of fraud, looking for fraud, is like checking the bank for theives after a pickpocketing.

Of course you'll find no evidence of pickpocketing where none happened.

Then to extrapolate these "findings" onto all the other states is to perpetrate another fraud on the American people just as egregious as the election fraud.

I therefore totally reject your premise and would also like to point out that your POV is putting all out eggs in one basket, a basket where we have little to no evidence of fraud, and therefore one that, if we were to accept your unfounded premise, is likely to kill our chances of catching the real fraud in the states where it actually occurred.

If you (or Nader) were a stage magician, this would be called drawing the audience's attention away from where the "magic" happens.

Your position appears to me to be a transparent ploy to mislead and direct attention away from where the fraud actually happened, OHIO and FLORIDA.

Keep the eye on the ball, people. Don't let operatives turn your head away.


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[futurecitizen]

57. Straw man?

Okay, I admit I'm a little confused by your response. In New Hampshire we have a serious exit poll problem, right? Either the exit polls were wrong or the final count was fraudulent. If the final count was fraudulent we have evidence that fraud occurred, making recounts everywhere much more likely. The other option is that the exit polls were just wrong, and for this to be a repub operation, there would have to be corruption at the exit poll itself *in order* to get us to look at NH first, find evidence that exit polls suck, and then lose steam. I think you're on thin ice, but I admit that something that convoluted is theoretically possible (though the collusion necessary would be nothing short of amazing).

In any event, we should help fund the efforts in all of the relevant states, not just concentrate on New Hampshire. If we could collectively give the millions to moveon that we did we can surely put together ~$300k for the three states.

We don't need to argue, people. We need to be getting our less enthused friends and acquaintances to donate $10 to the recount efforts in those three states.

FC

[jdj]

51. is the recount done on clean machines or on the same machines

or is it a hand to eye recount?

[YellowDoginthehouse]

61. Exactly

I think the popular vote was also padded in states that we would never consider looking at...like Texas, for example. I haven't heard anyone say that more people voted in Texas, or Alabama, or Louisiana than were registered to vote, but I'd betcha 100 bucks that if we did look, that's what we'd find. The "mandate" was rendered to discourage asking for a recount a la 2000.

If you wanna find that "mandate", look into the padding of the red state popular vote.

[shaggy briard]

52. NH Exit Polls were

screwy in the last general election as well -- they clearly showed Sen. Smith (a gumball) was defeated, but he "pulled it out" by a few votes in the end -- that and the FL 2000 pres race are the only occasions I ever recall a national news org reported calling a major race "wrong"

[althecat]

4. NO IT IS NOT...

New Hampshire may or may not show voter fraud. Either way it is not where Bush won.. Florida and Ohio are.

I applaud Nader's efforts but they are not our final shot at this.

[Jersey Devil]

6. You are not looking at this objectively

No one anywhere will question the exit polls as a factor in considering accuracy or fraud in any other state if NH's vote total proves to be accurate and does not deviate from the exit poll. Claiming deviation from exit polls makes the results in the other states look suspect after such a result would make us look like we are saying that Martians landed, hijacked the machines and used ray guns to change the vote.

[althecat]

8. I do not buy the whole Exit poll data is shite argument.

In fact I think it is a vote stealers talking point - stupidly and ignorantly purveyed into the mainstream media consciousness by the NYT.

When conducting an inquiry you have to make sure the target of the inquiry does not set the parameters of proof by which they will be judged.

EXIT POLL ANALYSIS FOR 47 STATES
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x36314

[nolabels]

20. This is the M.O. they use too

They would not be so blatant, and then let a state like N.H be set up as the litmus test without an underhanded plan. The N.H. thing seems all too convenient of a setup. It's a smaller state that could be set up some how. I never trusted Ralph, and I think his track record as of late should be studied

[Cronus Protagonist]

36. I think Ralph needs a lobotomy

Unless he's a lying sack of shit Republican operative in disguise, in which case he should be jailed.

You are correct. Do not let people turn out attention away from OHIO and FLORIDA.

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[Cronus Protagonist]

35. You go, althecat! I concur with you.

There do appear to be quite a few memes cropping up to divert our attention away from the fraud and to accept Bush's claim to have won.

IMHO any attempt to do that makes the poster's intentions questionable 0 they're either operatives or dupes and the message they spread is poison to our cause.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

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[lenidog]

63. Have the people who run the exit polls given an explanation

for why they were off? I mean its their reps on the line. Though I have heard from sources that I haven't confirmed yet that they have always stated that the exit polls were never meant to judge whose winning but originally were designed to only deal with issues. Can anyone give me anymore info?

[IAMREALITY]

7. To Each Their Own

To each their own, but I am looking at the bigger picture for one reason. Even if a recount got OH to flip, we still lose the popular vote by 3 somethin million. Not sure about you but to me I would not be overly proud if all our efforts did was push Kerry into office even if 3+ million more Americans didn't want him there. The only thing keeping me motivated is the thought that the fraud was widespread enough that Bushies mandate doesn't in fact exist. If I was merely fighting for an Ohio flip then I would be setting this nation up for a repeat of 2000 but in reverse. Think about it, Bushie won FL 4 years ago by a few hundred votes, while Gore had a half million more in the Popular Vote. And look at how outraged we were? Non-Popular President in office? No way! And that was our battle cry with just a half million Pop Vote seperation. Think of the backlash if we succeed in putting our candidate in the White House when he was down in the Pop Vote by over 3 million!! Not good. But I don't think it was just a few votes here or there in OH or FL to flip those states, I think it was two tiered. Pad the votes to strategically win certain swing states, and pad the others to get him a Mandate. If we in the end are to stand proud as patriots preserving democracy, then we have to hope that is the case. We need to not only flip some states, but we need to show a high probability that across a large number of states the tallies were padded so that the probability becomes higher that not only does Bushie not have a mandate, but that we have a strong argument that Kerry may have even in fact won the Popular Vote as well.

Just my thoughts.....

[althecat]

9. Where Did George Suddenly Get 11 Million New Friends?

Fair point IAMREALITY.

Which is why I think we need to go after the popular vote. This election was not just stolen in OH and Fl it was stolen all over the place... Which brings me to my own views on this election….. which are not far from those of Mark Crispin Miller.


I POSTED MY VIEWS HERE...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00124.htm#4

Firstly…
Show Me The Votes
or
Where Did George Suddenly Get 11 Million New Friends?

I think this election was stolen. And here's why.

We now know that in 2004 John Kerry received six million more votes than Gore received in 2000 (thanks in large part to a huge Get Out The Vote - GOTV = campaign). According to Greg Palast's research there was at least another 1 or 2 million votes lost due to vote suppression in poor minority heavy neighbourhoods. In anyone's book achieving such a huge number of votes is a major achievement.

However according to the poll on the day – the only one that counts (so far) – Bush received around 10 million new votes. And according to the exit polls – pretty much across the board - Independent voters voted more for Kerry than for Bush.

So where then did Bush get 11 million extra votes from? In fact - since there is anecdotal evidence of lots of 2000 Bush voters voting for John Kerry this time round - lets call it 11 million new votes?

In short the most confusing aspect of this poll is the popular vote. History teaches us that a high vote turnout helps the Democrats. But this time it helped Bush.

In the lead-up to the election there was no obvious evidence of a huge Republican mobilisation to register new voters – though there are now claims from Karl Rove that one was somehow conducted under the radar .

What there was in the lead-up to this election was mounting evidence of republican dirty tricks. There were reported cases of RNC connected companies signing up Democratic voters and then destroying and spoiling their registration forms. After that came the planned Florida and Ohio vote suppression operation - reported in the New York Times – and the 3000+ vote challengers. Then there was Greg Palast's expose of republican caging lists.

But remarkably (as one of the items later in this column details) according to the poll on the day – the only one that counts (so far) – Bush actually recorded a massive 69% increase in his minority vote!

Somewhere in the election statistics was the answer to a simple question. Where were Bush's 11 million new voters? Find these we postulated and you find where this election was stolen.

So we started looking.

Curiously the rather peculiar 69% statistic (which presumably comes from the exit polls – the data of which was doctored at 1am on Nov. 3rd) is in fact supported by a close look at some of the results.

These are the results that show a huge number of Bush's new voters did not come from - as you would expect - rural America and white suburbia - but actually from large urban, minority heavy, Democrat held counties.




Click for big version
SOURCE - WHERE THE SOUTH EAST WAS WON - lostnfound
And surprise surprise in Florida seven of the top 10 Bush vote gaining counties used Touch screens. Between them these Touch Screen (read as unauditable) counties account for nearly 500k of Bush's total vote increase in the sunshine state, more than enough to cover his 380,000 vote majority. In Florida Bush achieved and incredible 38%+ growth in his vote over 2000 levels, and remember even the 2000 levels are questionable.

Meanwhile across the nation in California, another sunshine state, the Bush vote actually declined. But that was certainly not the case in all the "liberal" blue states.

Looking more widely nearly 60% of all Bush's new vote was gained in just 11 states, in order of sheer numbers of new Bush voters these GOP growth states are Florida, Texas, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvannia, Georgia, Michigan, New Jersey, Tennessee, North Carolina and Illinois. Of these New York, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Jersey and Illinois are blue states, and Florida and Ohio are swing states.

Meanwhile in those states where you might have expected Bush to do well he didn't do particularly well at all. While Utah just exceeded the national average Bush vote gain at 19% and Texas just matched it at 18%, Kansas, Colorado and Wyoming actually produced below average results for Karl Rove's GOTV team.

All of which makes me suspicious. Especially when considered alongside some of the other evidence on this page.

Which all brings me to my question for Karl Rove. Show me the voters!

- C.D. Sludge 09 November 2004

[Jersey Devil]

10. If touch screens are "unauditable" where are you going with this?

How can you prove something that is not subject to audit? By suspicion?

BTW, as for New Jersey, it is not surprising at all to me that Bush picked up votes here since Kerry did not step foot in the state for the entire campaign, we are deluged with right wing talk radio shows and virtually everyone has cable and thus got all the ads from Bush.

In my own town, which is a swing town in Bergen County, every Democrat on the ticket won by about 200 votes except one - guess who?
Bush won by 26 votes. Am I suspicious? Not at all because that is exactly what happened in 1992 when all our candidates won by about 500 votes and Bush41 won by 500 votes. My town votes for Dems (as it did for Clinton in 96 and Gore in 2000) but generally gives the incumbent the benefit of the doubt.

[Chimpanzee]

12. I dunno....

What better way to get even - win the election but have the pukes crying a river because they has 3M more votes. It's win-win either way as far as I'm concerned. You may not be into revenge, but for me, I take democracy seriously and I want payback for 2 stolen elections.

[IAMREALITY]

14. No Offense...

No offense, but saying you want a 3 million vote minus unpopular President in office merely for sake of revenge, followed by a statement of taking democracy seriously, seems to be an oxymoron and a message of hypocrisy. Course, that's just an opinion......

[noiretextatique]

30. oh please stop it... the electoral votes are what matter

please stop now :eyes:

[lebkuchen]

19. Bush had actually lost Florida to Gore

once newpapers there did a recount.

Mainstream media kept saying during this election, "Well, nothing has changed, all is as before, and all is well with the world."

Actually, no. Bush had supposedly tallied up a quarter of a million more votes in FL. Four years ago, Gore had received more votes there. That's quite a change.

When considering the turnout, the escalating war in Iraq, and all the bad news piled up in the last, hell, week before the election at least, there is no way that Bush got 250,000 more votes than Kerry in FL.

[Cronus Protagonist]

37. Hahahahaaha your talking points are IDENTICAL to other people's

They all go like this:

1/ Even if Kerry won, he shouldn't take the presidency. Let George keep it because.... (he'll have to wallow in his own shit, etc.)

2/ Even if there is fraud, it's not good enough to win the electoral vote without the popular vote because... (no mandate, GOP attacks, etc.)

3/ Even if there is fraud, we shouldn't talk about it because... (the media/country can't handle it, etc.)

4/ If there was fraud, it must have been across ALL the states, and we need to show that as well because... (you're really throwing crap at the fan here)

You used talking points 1, 2 and 4 - are you saving point 3 for later?

This makes me think that you're all reading from the same scripts. Did you get that one direct from Karl or was it passed through Nader?

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

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[IAMREALITY]

43. Cronus, are you a republican?

I'm new here, so I don't know for sure, but you seem to have a similar mentality to them. For example, points 1,2,and 4 have nothing to do with my post, and you have spun my post into the "usually republican" realm of utter distortion. And maybe you shouldn't be pushing your pins, our money is probably much better served elsewhere right now. (hmmm. helpamericarecount, Bev, Nader, Etc??)

[Cronus Protagonist]

48. Hahahaha You're new here, right?

You might want to lurk for a bit before posting drivel like that.

[IAMREALITY]

49. Hey, look at my SN, I call it as I see it....

and from the 'lurking' I have done so far you seem to be far more antagonistic then protagonistic. But alas, I will keep an open mind and give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Cronus Protagonist]

50. You wondered if I was a Republican because of my style?

When have you ever seen a Republican stick to the issue at hand, only respond to the topic at hand and never attack the messenger? Sure, I attack the message, I look for facts, I bring them up inconveniently to those who would promulgate misinformation, I'm an unabashed liberal and I'm not shy about it. I've been on here for years and my businesses are geared to taking down the GOP machine. Are these really Republican traits to you?

You know as well as I do that they first thing most Republicans do is attack the messenger, redirect, obfuscate and then spin spin spin.

I don't do any of these things. Perhaps with more experience you'll be able to see the difference.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

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[lenidog]

64. So are we to

become mindless drones (ie Republicans) and tow the party line no matter what? So he is a bit antagonistic, maybe he is trying to get you to think about all parts of the issue. Remember this no matter what party you belong to , think for yourself.

[futurecitizen]

58. I agree, sorta.

I'm hoping it is that widespread, and I would be much less happy if the popular vote went to Bush, but then again, when I think about what four more years might mean, the popular vote becomes much less important to me.

FC

[shraby]

62. If New Hampshire is found to deviate

enough, it may trigger an automatic recount nationwide. If not, it also acts as a distraction from Ohio where a recount will also be going on, which in my mind, is a good thing.

[Junkdrawer]

11. I agree with you 1000%...

I've crunched the numbers in NH and the big story there was that the Nader & Other 2000 vote went to Kerry. It is true, however, that the two largest counties went for Bush by about 3% more than trend.

And, to add to the ulcers, the Chain of Custody of the paper trail is currently guarded by a Republican Governor.

All-in-all, NH could well be a RatherGate type trap.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

28. I said this already: Be WARNED OF RATHERGATE!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25564

[CAcyclist]

60. Except that it's not something that was fed to us

I don't see the republicans as able to plant an idea as seemingly pointless as recounting NH. I think it's a brilliant idea because I believe it's something the republicans never in a million years dreamed we'd think of.

We have to lay the question of the exit polls to rest - I am confidant the exit polls will be supported

[txindy]

13. I would have agreed with you a week ago

But the news that just keeps coming out of Ohio makes that state independent of the NH findings, IMO. Too many 'miscounts', 'coincidences' (ALL favoring B*sh), and too many unexplained occurences.

Ohio must be investigated regardless of the NH outcome. If only to guard against such election disasters in that state in the future, at ALL levels: local, state, and national. This has wider implications than the presidential race.

[Matariki]

17. PROOF of machine tampering in NY recount

Hi there. I hope this isn't presumptuous to ask - but could someone start a new thread posting this link?

http://www.wnbc.com/politics/3902820/detail.html

It seems very important. It's an AP article about the recount going on in the New York senate race. The democrat was losing but they had found votes for the repub candidate before the election, so the democrat was able to get the machines and records impounded for a recount. They found that a bunch of the machines had their seals broken or removed and when they did the recount, most of the machines had more votes for the democrat than had been recorded and now she's winning.

What bothers me is that besides this article which is a few days old, newer stories aren't mentioning the reason why her votes are now coming out higher - it seems they're deliberately skirting the voting machine issue.

[bleever]

18. Here's the beginning of the concrete evidence

that will start to deluge out, like the statistical evidence, once the can o' worms gets opened. DUers may save democracy after all.

[wiggs]

27. This sounds promising

If true, this is the first NEW fraud evidence I've heard about since late last week, and it sounds very important.

This sounds like proof of tampering, not suspicion. Sounds like it should be on BBV.org, but I didn't see it. Once PROOF is found, theoretically there should be public outcry, suspicion of the entire process, calls for more investigation, help from DNC in funding recounts, more contributions to BBV.org, etc..

So isn't this what we are looking for? Isn't this the first PROOF of tampering? Why isn't this getting more play everywhere? Is the FBI investigating what could be a federal crime? Is BBV,org on this? Does AAR know about this? If any recount happens in Ohio and tampering is found, will it get the quiet treatment too?

Doesn't matter to me that the tampering had to do with NY senate race. Proof of tampering is important. The illusion that US elections are inviolable has to be broken.

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. I started a thread for you - this is important news

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=38758#

:)

[shaggy briard]

54. NY is all lever

machines -- which leave an auditable trail -- no question of re-programming or de-programming here where I live

[lenidog]

65. hate to say this

>>>it seems they're deliberately skirting the voting machine issue.<<<

Hate to say this but finding a tampered voting machine in the NY city area is about as unusual as finding a rat in the same area

[glugglug]

21. not the largest margin....

PA had Kerry with a 20% lead in the pre-"updated" exit polls.

[Jersey Devil]

24. right, but still close enough

The smallness of NH lends itself to make it the best test state.

[progressivejazz]

25. NH was a very poor choice, given their history.

New Hampshire has a history of exit polls' not predicting election outcomes, going back at least to 1996. Sure, there may be something funny going on in counting the votes, but it may also be due to the natural contrariness of New Hampshirites. They love to stick it to the "city slickers". It wouldn't surprise me at all if they lied to the exit pollsters just as they said they did in the Smith vs. Swett Senatorial race in 1996. I was born and raised in Massachusetts and know a little something about New Hampshirites' attitudes toward people and organizations they consider elitist, like the national media.

[nolabels]

26. This why they have more than one piston on most larger diesel engines

A little kick :kick:

http://www.millenicom.com/johnbrunskill/Sacramento%20Train%20Museum.htm

[Cronus Protagonist]

32. So which do you think will happen? I bet it's another Nader double-cross

And they chose that state because it's the only state where they didn't cheat.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

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[mcg]

33. I don't think so, Nader's thinking is hard to understand.

I think Nader's idea is that Bush is so bad that he'll ruin the Republican party. This is just the kind of thing he's been waiting for. Yes, he has caused trouble, but I don't think he's buddies with Bush.

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. Doesn't matter what spin you put on it, actions are what count

And Nader's actions have all been to give George another 4 years, for whatever convoluted reasoning he may come up with. I see nothing to indicate that his current actions will do anyhing other than more of the same, which is to make sure Bush gets another 4 years.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

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[Helga Scow Stern]

46. It remains to be seen what Ralph's motivations have been.

[Cronus Protagonist]

47. I don't care about his motivations. I care about his actions

Which all work to Bush's favor so far. I don't want people to be disappointed one more time when it is discovered that he didn't "get religion" after the election, after all. He's probably still continuing his actions to re-elect George W. Bush.

I see no evidence to indicate that his current action is any different from ALL his previous actions.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[Emillereid]

41. I disagree -- I think votergate will blow wide open in Ohio if the Greens

get enough money to request a recount!


Green Party of Ohio needs money for recount effort!!

They need $110,000 to pull off their request for a recount -- please send money to:



For the OHIO recount:

Make checks payable to;
Green Party of Ohio
P.O. box 754
New Albany, Ohio
43054

Paypal donations can be sent to;
[e-mail]

Send this to everyone you know!!

[Cronus Protagonist]

42. Now you're talking - OHIO is ground zero for election fraud

Partisans "counting" votes behind closed doors with no public oversight is clearly something worth investigating. A Green challenge here would be a good first step towards gathering probably cause.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[sabra]

45. Ralph Nader Takes on Election Day Problems

Will Kerry/Edwards listen to Nader's advise?

Ralph Nader Takes on Election Day Problems

“To create a vibrant democracy we must face the irregularities in our elections—not ignore them after election day.”
Washington, DC:Over 2000 citizens, including voting rights advocates, are urging in writing the Nader/Camejo campaign to help make sure every vote is counted and counted accurately. The Nader/Camejo campaign does not view the election to be over merely because concession speeches, which have no legal effect, have been given. Rather, they are over when every vote is counted and legally certified.

Voting-rights groups and others have identified trouble spots and anomalies in several states meriting further investigation. They are discovering what Nader warned against throughout this election: because computers are inherently subject to programming error, equipment malfunction, and malicious tampering, paperless electronic voting machines make it impossible to safeguard the integrity of our vote. Imagine our country turning the technology and software for counting our votes over to three or four proprietary corporations. With other obstructions and manipulations, they thereby threaten the very foundation of our democracy. The Democratic National Committee website offers no response or advice to voters on where to turn. Senator John Kerry, thus far, has remained silent.

Regardless of whether it changes the electoral outcome, the Democrats should follow through on their repeated promises by the Kerry/Edwards campaign to the people to make sure every vote is counted—in Ohio and other states discovering similar problems with electronic voting machines and other irregularities. “It is imperative to find out what changes are needed in the equipment whether superior system substitutions should be used,” Nader said. “At a minimum, the Democrats should put the state on alert to clean up its act. With the extensive pre-election effort to prevent election fraud, including international observers, activist poll watchers and attempts to enforce paper trail backups, the Democratic Party’s silence is puzzling,” said Ralph Nader. “It needs to wake up from its week of ‘shock and awe.’"

Realities, plausibilities, and rumors swirl around at times such as these. Facts must be separated from fiction if we are ever going to know what happened.

On November 5, The Nader/Camejo campaign filed a challenge seeking a hand recount of the New Hampshire ballots at the request of numerous voting rights advocates. Striking inconsistencies exist between the vote as reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines and exit polls and voting trends in New Hampshire. These irregularities in the reported vote count favor President George W. Bush by 5% to 15% over what was expected. Problems in these electronic voting machines and optical scanners are being reported in machines in a variety of states.

Nader says major electoral reforms are needed to ensure that every vote counts, including the most unlikely to be counted – those of third party and independent candidates’ votes. Reforms should ensure that all voters are represented through electoral reforms like instant run-off voting, binding none-of-the-above options, and proportional representation; that non-major party candidates have a ballot access chance to run for office and participate in debates; and that public elections be publicly financed.

Ralph Nader called upon John Edwards and John Kerry to be serious about their pre-election and post-election promises: “Our offices are being flooded with faxes and e-mails asking for assistance in resolving these irregularities—a lot of them are citizens who voted for you. You must now take action to give our nation the fair accounting it deserves from the 2004 election and to protect democratic processes in future elections. Although your party extended considerable funds and manpower to unconstitutionally drive us off the Ohio ballot, in the spirit of good government, I urge you to make this effort now.”

[brettdale]

53. When will we know the recount result

When will the results of the recount in NH be known?

[baba]

55. Counting NH

Question:

I thought the reason for counting New Hampshire was because they have a paper trail from their computer voting, therefore making it easier to verify. But they actually have optiscan voting? Forgive my ignorance, but how would the fraud occur with the optiscan machines? I thought it was the computer voting we were worried about....They are defrauding us with optiscans, too....Is nothing safe?

:shrug:

[Spera]

59. Central tabulators

The fraud doesn't occur with the opti-scan machines themselves (although I have actually now read concerns about the light sensitivity of the scanning machines having been weakened so they won't read poorly punched cards), but with the central tabulator computers that add up the totals for opti-scan ballots from each precinct. They are essentially just Windows-based PCs and are ridiculously easy to manipulate (see the video at www.votergate.tv or www.blackboxvoting.org). The concern is that the vote totals were changed on the central tabulators. Fortunately there are heaps of physical paper ballots that can be re-scanned or hand counted. The hope is that by recounting in a small state such as NH (where even though Kerry won, there was a huge discrepancy between the exit polls and the "actual" results) the recount costs will be minimal and we can uncover problems big enough to validate concerns and warrant recounts in Ohio & Florida.

[baba]

67. So they will count the paper ballots

that were fed into the Optiscan machines? We're expecting that the paper ballots won't match the tabulations. Got it. It will be interesting to see them try to worm their way out of it if they don't match....

I wonder if they would risk changing votes on machines that ARE verifiable, though. Wouldn't they stick to the non-traceable machines? Unless they were betting that nobody would check....

[markfordibiase]

56. what happens if............

A recount of NH puts Bushco ahead?

Does that automatically negate Ohio?

I think this is a trap.

[Nitro]

66. It's a Rove trap

Since they're already going through with it, you know I don't have bad intentions. Please read my post here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25564#39805

This is the link to the Luntz exit poll I didn't include in that one:
http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=65809

Nader might be leading us to dig our own grave.