Carter

[garybeck]

I just heard that Carter once said James Baker is "one of my favorite Republicans."

I am afraid that Carter is going to roll over completely on this. I don't know if he doesn't know, doesn't care, has been threatened, has skeletons in his closet, or what. But if some of you are holding out thinking Carter is going to stand up and say "wait a minute, this whole thing is a sham!" don't hold your breath.

keep in mind, he already allowed the 2004 election to transpire without any real criticism.

I'm afraid this commission is a complete sham and Carter not going to do anything about it.

I hope he proves me wrong, but I think he would have said something already. As far as I know he completely ignored Conyers' letter.

[autorank]

1. Hope keeps the lid on. Loss of an 'icon' equals loss of hope.

I'd like to think Carter is a decent guy and honorable but you're right, he tanked on the 2004 theft and did little better in 2000. Sooo, if you predict the future based on history from the past, he'll choke here too. I hope I'm wrong and I'll wait to see, give him the benefit of the doubt. If he caves, then it's time to really take my occasional tag line seriously,

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY (ALL new leaders)

[garybeck]

4. or dare we use the "R" word?

revolution

this could be the final piece of evidence we need to conclude the democrats are involved in this too. it was no mistake Kerry conceded and fought against all the recount efforts.

[autorank]

6. garybeck, buddy, love your posts...We are the Democrats!

I think that Kerry was naive and that Carter is probably the same. We need a main line leader, elected official, with some gravitas, to stand up and shout FRAUD. No need for much more than the starters flag since all the work is done. It will be the equivalent of the Civil Rights movement, or more appropriately, and extension of that great cause.

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY

[Andy_Stephenson]

14. Kerry naive? Hardly

Kerry "fought" the bushistas on BCCI. Or did he? Kerry is not naive you don't get to the position he is in by being naive.

[autorank]

20. Andy, you rock!!! I don't think everybody in a position of power

knows everything; and that there are some in power who should know better but are in DENIAL. I think Carter, Kerry, and some others fit that to the bill. They just can't absorb the monstrosity of the entire election fraud deal, they have staff who won't challenge them, and they think that their friends across the aisle, people like Lugar, would never countenance such acts. And those folks may be in denial too.

What we/you are asking America to do from the top down is admit that the entire election process was a fraud, flat out theft! Just think of people like Carter and Kerry as the enablers in an alcoholic family, they just keep going without really accepting or admitting what they know, that there is a huge problem.

[Blue Shark]

21. "The position he is in"?...

...the position he is in ...is that he is a failed polititian who actually got more votes than the other guy and he still LOST! Un-Fucking Believeable.

[garybeck]

22. our best hope at this point is

Howard Dean.

He knows.

He's in a position to do something about it.

[autorank]

25. Thank you! That's right. I think Dean's got some pay back to deliver

to the Republicans, the press, and the quiescent Democrats who scoffed at him.

[bleever]

37. I've come to really respect and look for your posts, garybeck,

but when you suggest that Kerry's concession was no "accident", and that he fought the recount efforts, or suggest that we abandon the Democratic party for an amorphous revolution, I sense your anger and frustration but don't know what you're seeing as a positive alternative.

But I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

[dzika]

2. Gary, I'm with you...

The whole thing smells. The timing, the members, the background and the testimony.

[applegrove]

3. What do you mean by roll over. Because many of us DUer (the majority

of Dem voters actually) do not believe in Diebold machines being toyed with. We do believe that some felons (African American ones) and not others (Latinos ones) were vetted from the voting lists.

We believe that line-ups were made longer by lack of machines in some precincts. We believe the meaning of electoral law has been destroyed by Bush & his team (2000 election). We believe that Rove has done much in the way of 'redistricting' that is illegal (or should be).

If Carter comes up with scathing remarks & decisions on these things.. but does not believe that votes inside machines were actually preprogrammed to give Bush a victory... will you consider that a great report?

Because that is what I would consider a great report. Carter is a very bright man despite his advanced age.

If you are not going to get the outcome you want (because there is no proof anywhere of actual vote tampering inside machines) then you should be prepared for that.

If there is no proof - you gotta give it up.

Rove & the White House just love to stir the pot of wounded and untrusting democrats and get them going (trying to explain a great defeat in terms other than people voting for someone as creepy as Bush). They will try and build you up to let you down hard. Because that is what socipaths do to their enemies (and trust me if you are any democrat who thinks for themselves and is not under Rove complete control you are an enemy..because you will & do perceive him & the GOP to be a bunch of phony lying freaks out for no good. But he will love to hurt this wound you felt in the election again. But I will not. I will tell your right away that Carter's report will not find evidence of things like Diebold that did not happen. I know manipulation because I have dealt with a sociopath and his cabal (cloying, believing, attacking, followers). And they would and did find it much, much easier to simply steal the election by stealing the hearts and minds of the American Public (or any public). Sociopaths can and do get anyone to think anything. Going to war helped them get Americans to vote on non-domestic issues.

That is where the crime is... in the hearts & minds of Americans. I hope that when Carter finds all sorts of bad electoral policy problems but not outright stealing of the election.. I hope you will be able to accept that. Carter has to deal with the facts.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[applegrove]

9. That is how you tell if something is a conspiracy theory - they

always attach themselves to something unprovable.

[Andy_Stephenson]

15. I found fraud in Florida.

I have the evidence right here on my desk.

[applegrove]

35. You found fraud in a voting machine? No you did not! n/t

[garybeck]

23. that is how you tell a closed minded person

they won't even look at hard evidence.

there is proof. just open your eyes.

[EC]

27. What?

the old arguement that if you don't know who THEY are it's a conspiracy theory? How about knowing who THEY are but don't want to name as yet, or investigating leads etc. There has been plenty to show the machines were messed with in some manner - even in the code. What about Clint Curtuss' testimony? Why would he lie?

[applegrove]

36. You don't know Clint. He could be someone toyed with by rovbots

for some fun. And to divide the DU.

Ever though of that? That they creeps have everything to gain from your lack of knowing what to trust anymore.

I say step back and look at the patterns. If you were a witness I would say speak up and tell those in power what you know. But you are not a witness.

You are a victim of this president.

[garybeck]

13. here's one easy way

go to states where there are paper trails on the DREs or paper ballots on the opscans. hand count them. compare to the official results. nuff said.

there are so many glaring anomalities, it's obvious something is awry.

every single vote switching report was Kerry to Bush. PhD statisticians have reported that it is impossible this could happen by chance.

there are thousands of phantom votes in many states.

and, even though the source code is not open, it could be opened if the companies were forced to reveal their source code.

there are many many ways it could be proven. all we need is a trial, so that disclosure and subpoenas can begin.

people have been convicted of murder on less evidence than is available with this.

means
motive
opportunity

it's all there, and then some.

[FogerRox]

16. Mod mom there might be a few inaccuracies creeping in that--

1.
80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.

Maybe not-------------


Systems to be used in 2004: http://www.heraldtribune.com

Paper Ballots only
0.6% - 1 million registered voters
Lever machines
12.8% - 22.2 million registered voters
Electronic - 86.5% of all votes cast
32.2% - Optical scan, 55.6 million registered voters
28.9% - Electronic touchscreens, 50 million registered voters
18.6% - Punch cards, 32.2 million registered voters
6.8% - Mixed, 11.7 million registered voters
Source: Election Data Services


3.The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers. -------------------
That hasnt been true since last year, Diebold let Robert go-

Andy might have had sumtin to do with that------- >wink<


5.Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S.

Nah--not really--it was AIS IIRC back then

[mod mom]

30. thanks I will cease using it. Does anyone have an updated version? nt

[garybeck]

8. what?

with all due respect, you can't speak for "most DUers" or "most democrats"

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not Diebold stole the election.

But I will submit to you that if most democrats don't think they did, it's not because of the facts, it's only because the media has kept them from the facts.

if you want to just focus on the long lines and machine allocation, do you know that none of this was discussed yesterday either? don't hold your breath on that either.

the commission is completely stacked with GOPers. They even have a front group there posing as an election rights organization, which is only comprised of GOPers in reality (see bradblog).

None of the real experts on electronic voting have even been asked to testify.

And if you want to say "there's no proof" and "give it up" I say you're completely wrong and you haven't looked at the facts. the fact is there are still many paper ballots that could be hand counted to prove fraud. if the machines were opened up and the source code was looked at it could be proven as well.

There is also more than adequate very irregular election results, with thousands of phantom votes and so many unexplained things, I can't even get into it here.

But I advise you to check the facts before you speak on behalf of "most" DUers or democrats. I would guess that most people on this forum completely disagree with your opinions.

And it's really beside the point, because even the issues that you agree are valid -the voter disenfrhisement, long lines, machine allocations, are going to be completely swept under the rug by this commission. In fact they are turning it around 180 degrees and saying all the problem were with democrats breaking the rules on voter registration.

Conyers sent a letter to Carter asking why none of the real experts are even being asked to testify and stating his opinion very strongly about who should be asked to testify. Carter so far as ignored it. He's ignoring the very evidence that you think is valid - the long lines and such.

[applegrove]

10. Carter will study the issues and very likely come up with a scathing

report on the practices during elections and how the meaning of the law was warped. The Rush's et all are already attacking Carter because they know this is coming.

If you are going to be disappointed, you will be disappointed. Someone just informed me that there is such a thing as 'secured code' - so that implies there will never be proof. And conspiracy theorists always choose something that is not provable. That is how you tell the nuts.

If you accuse a bunch of sociopaths of being sociopaths.. well that will be obvious in their lives (childhood & teens) or you can run those suckers into a MRI machine and see how they process emotion just like it were a number.

So you can step back and say - they are liars and I saw them do this (lie on TV) and I saw them covet what was not their (democracy) and I did not see them do anything to machines. So you have to stop there.

Otherwise you are going to be very upset with Carter's report. And freeper trolls will have a grand old sadistic time stirring your pot and getting you going. And then you will be no use the democrats during the election or for higher elected office. Because you have to go on facts to be really, really helpful.

Rove stole the hearts & minds of Americans. In typical sociopath fashion. That is much worse than playing with a machine. Because Rove's term is not up in 4 years.... he could keep on ****ing up the system(vetting for felons only in black districts) for eons.

I would step back. Since you did not witness anything happening to a machine .. you do not know. And nor will you ever.

Step back. The crime took place in the hearts and minds of Americans. That is the problem that needs looking into. So that we DUers will all be together come the next election.

Rove will send in trolls to stir the conspiracy pot... for fun (sociopaths take great happiness and diminishing the lives of people or frogs) and divide up the DU in the process.

Now they run down Carter on their radio shows - so the freepers will not listen to his report on how awful the mis-use of the electoral system has been under Rove/Repukes... and you will not listen because you are waiting for proof (a messiah) that will never come.

I don't want you to be let down.

Read the person who responded to me earlier. There will never be proof. Take a step back, accept that Bush & his machine won the votes but stole the hearts. Take a deep breath. And move on. So that you will be there (and not chasing one theory after another) on the elections nights to come.

Not as much fun, no possibility of impeaching BUsh I know. Lots of work to have to walk the walk and get the Democrats back in power that way. You cannot sit at your computer to really help - you have to get out and really engage in your church or school or Democratic group. No Democratic candidate is going to let you be a volunteer if you are sprouting a theory that can never be prooved.

You are a loss to us. We need you to hear Carter's report and accept it.

[kster]

17. I will accept it as

long as Conyers accept's it.Other than that I have to stand with Conyers,he asked to be invited,they refused. Thats not FAIR. So you go ahead accept Carters report,if you feel good about it, your job will be done here. Just don't ask me to accept it.

[garybeck]

18. well stated

Carter's ignoring of Conyers is a BIG RED FLAG.

and anyone who thinks Carter is going to come out with a scathing report about the long lines and voting machine allocation, think again. that information is not even being presented to the commission. it would be totally inappropriate for Carter to come up with anything that was not introduced to the commission.

[garybeck]

19. I don't think you understand how a commission like this works

In order for Carter to come up with a scathing report about anything, the information would have to be presented to the commission.

There is no one presenting information about the long lines and the voting machine allocation at this commission. It would be totally inappropriate for Carter to mention anything in his report that was not presented to the commission.

Conyers has all but BEGGED Carter to let this testimony be presented and Carter has ignored him completely.

If you think the long lines are the issue, you should stand with Conyers, not Carter. Carter has not said or done anything whatsoever to defend the rights of those people who stood in line for up to 12 hours. Conyers on the other hand has put everything he has, including his political career on the line for those people. He produced a 102 paged document disclosing the facts about it all. That document is not even being viewed at the commission. Think what you want, but the long lines and voter disinfranchisement is not going to be discussed.

[Melissa G]

26. When did you applegrove.. become us DU ...You certainly do not

sound like those of us who follow this issue. Perhaps it might help to read some of Gary's excellent links on Solar Bus and then come back and converse with us in a more educated fashion when you have a bit more information.
Don't worry about us feeling let down. We have a public to educate. Happy for you to be the first of many. Try Mythbreakers for a start http://www.votersunite.org /
Good Luck!

[Helga Scow Stern]

28. applegrove, why wouldn't sociopaths steal the election?

The behavior you describe here and in your post below is totally consistent with doing the unthinkable.

What is also consistent with people being seduced by sociopathic behavior is denying what they saw on election night. It happened right in front of anyone's eyes who was watching. It was so obvious it was shocking. Just like the typical sociopathic scenario where the unthinkable is done and then denial makes it not an issue in public discourse. Like in Germany, perhaps, when the unthinkable was done but people just went about their business. Your argument about sociopathic behavior only makes the case for election fraud stronger.

[applegrove]

34. But the sociopaths like we discuss may break an odd window or ruin

property in some victims name, but they find it easy to change the hearts and minds of people.

The sociopath would take the easier route.. the route where all is vague, the rules are too clear, you redistribute voters & electoral boundaries, you flip a few key democratic leaders in Texas like they did... and then you change the system for a long time.

Tripping up one vote with funny machines... just did not happen.

The robbery took place in the hearts and minds of their followers. That is much harder to go up against. And the consequences of 'changing how people perceive the word' are far longer lasting than simply finding your proof of electoral vote switching and they overturning the election.

The only people who can talk about fraud have to witnesses. And there are not any because it didn't happen.

[EC]

5. I thought Carter

quit this commission, saying it was a sham?

[applegrove]

11. When did that happen? n/t

[garybeck]

12. I believe it's his organization - the Carter Center

which was supposedly involved but not really. As far as I know, Carter himself is still on the commission. I'll find out for sure and post what I find here unless somene beats me to it.

[liam_laddie]

29. Carter's independence

SFAIK, Carter resigned in March from any active role in the
Carter Center, possibly even resigned from BoD, not certain. At any rate, some confusion developed because whoever designed the CFER letterhead / literature used President Carter's name in direct association with the Carter Center. Error or intentional?
I have my own opinion...

The Center has assured those who've checked, that the Center has NO role or association whatsoever with the CFER. President Jimmy Carter is acting as a private citizen, from all I can discover.
My belief, as I've said previously, is that Baker et al cajoled Carter into co-chairing in order to give this sham circus act a veneer of credibility. But I can't believe that Carter and his advisors would be so naive or uninformed as to not realize this; maybe they're preparing a surprise line of questioning in Texas...one can only wish!

[garybeck]

24. maybe there is hope, today Carter said:

"e want to make sure that the electoral process has integrity -- that it is not shot through with fraud."

he used the "F" word!!

[Peace Patriot]

31. I think the game is to nationalize elections...

...get all control of election systems, procedures and rules as away from the states and counties, and as far away from ordinary people as possible. Currently, states and counties have control over elections, and that's where election reform efforts are focusing, and that's where it is feasible, because local officials are, well...more local. Ordinary people have more influence at the state/local level.

As with HAVA, that used $4 billion in federal (Bush Cartel) bribes to entice precipitous conversion to insecure, hackable electronics run by BushCon companies (on secret source code)--thus making vote counting an esoteric science that most voters don't understand-- a "national standard" (which Carter has spoke of in connection with this private, stacked, 'out of nowhere' "commission"), will be proposed to Congress, and we will end up with Congress or some new commission that it creates having total and direct control over election systems, procedures and rules.

And that will be the end of election reform. We will no longer have any power to reform election systems. The only power or potential power we have now is state/local.

That may be how how Carter is being manipulated. And that's how the Voting Rights Act activists will be pitted against the national election fraud activists. The Voting Rights activists seem blind to the fact that we HAVE a Voting Rights Act. The Bush Cartel failed to ENFORCE it--and in fact deliberately, openly violated it--in Ohio, Florida and other states. We don't NEED new laws or new standards to prevent discrimination against black or other minority voters. What we need is a decent federal government.

I sometimes think they did this on purpose (such visible violations--they didn't need to do that), as a red herring, and possibly even to "divide and conquer." I have been very impressed with Conyers' intelligence on this matter--he didn't take the bait. He sees the whole picture. But Carter is another matter.

Carter is used to monitoring elections in smaller countries, like Venezuela, where a national standard makes sense. Despite all the problems in the US with state/local control over elections, federal control over elections (what the Bush Cartel is after) will violate the "balance of powers" we have now, wherein if the Feds become fascists, the people can still act through local and state jurisdictions.

I think that a "national standard" here will quickly change into a federal dictatorship over elections. And I don't have much reason to believe that Carter sees the extreme peril of that, with BushCons in control of the government.

They fooled him on the Iran hostages situation. Treason was committed (Reagan operatives negotiating with Iran over PRESIDENT Carter's head, during his reelection campaign). He let that go by. (It cost him the election.) His acquiescence here, to Baker being co-chair, to how this private "commission" is stacked, to who is being "allowed" to testify, etc., are not good signs that Carter has any understanding of what they're up to.

I wouldn't write him off, even so. I hope what has happened is that he has stepped into the snakepit on purpose, knowing it's a snakepit (I do think he has that kind of courage), and he is thinking he can do some good there, and I hope further that, if that is the case, he is able to perceive what they're really up to.

What we should be looking for, and try to head off, is a nationalization of our elections. We will lose all power on election reform if that happens.

[Peace Patriot]

32. P.S. Some further thoughts on Ohio as red herring...

I'm just saying that's possible. What we had, I think, was an evolving election fraud plan, with a number of backup plans and various scenarios that could be changed as necessary. Possibly when there was a pre-election fight over the Dieboldization of Ohio, that fraud plan had to be amended. They did not have a smooth, uniform, easy to hack system, as planned. So it's possible that, yes, they did HAVE to engage in visible lawbreaking (violations of the Voting Rights Act) to keep Ohio in Bush's column.

[Bill Bored]

33. Only skeleton I know of is that Carter opposed allowing third party

candidates in the debates. Not exactly election fraud but somewhat anti-democratic. If you want to push for open debates, there's another group for that.
See: http://opendebates.org/

Let's give Carter a chance to fight for paper trails at least, even though they will never be counted, etc. They are a step in the right direction, but Conyers should certainly be allowed to testify if not, to LEAD the commission with Carter.

Keep pestering Dr. Pastor at American U. per Brad's request.
Any chance of organizing a demonstration there? They have students or something, don't they?

[Verve]

38. Is Carter hearing from us? Are there emails, calls, petitions to sign?

If anyone knows how we can get in touch with Carter, please let me know. He needs to hear from all of us.