Questions About AutoMark & David Dill's Testimony

[truckin]

If anyone can answer these questions about the AutoMark system I would greatly appreciate it.

1) Is there a video that shows how the AutoMark system works and if there is, where is it?

2) What is the status of the AutoMark certification?

3) Who exactly is certifying the AutoMark system?

On another note, I thought David Dill's testimony yesterday was great. His analogy of telling a scribe who you are voting for to voting on DRE machines really made his point well.

Is Professor Dill's testimony available yet? I checked Verified Voting but it was not posted there.

Thanks to all who answer.

[tommcintyre]

1. Here's the link to all panelists testimony

http://www.american.edu/ia/cfer/hearings.htm

[truckin]

2. Thanks Tom

[tommcintyre]

4. kick

[Wilms]

3. kick n/t

[Wilms]

5. Here's some goodies.

1. Videos:

http://www.automarkts.com/video%20pages/ESS_MAC.htm

http://www.voiceofthenationsblind.org/transcripts/80/automark-voter-assist-terminal-demonstration


2. Certification:

http://www.electionline.org/index.jsp?page=Newsletter%20March%2031%202005


This search string pulled a few hits:

http://tinyurl.com/9z22y


3. Testing (what a mess)

Lynn Landes
Technical Issues and (No Federally Mandated) Standards (last edited March 22, 2004)
http://www.workablepeace.org/voting/eco.htm


National Institute of Standards and Technology
NIST and the Help America Vote Act of 2002 (HAVA)
http://vote.nist.gov

Federal Election Commission: Voting System Standards/Guidelines
http://www.eac.gov/election_resources/vss.html

Election Assistance Commission: Voting Standards
http://www.eac.gov/voting_standards.asp?format=none


National Association of State Election Directors (NASED): Voting System Certification
http://www.nased.org/certification.htm


Independent Testing Authority (NASED Certified)

Ciber
http://www.ciber.com/index_var.cfm?pageid=/services_solutions/stategov/main.cfm?id=govboth-testing

SysTest Labs
http://www.systest.com/services/ita/index.htm

Wyle Laboratories
http://www.wylelabs.com

[truckin]

7. Thanks Wilms! I'll review these videos over the weekend

when I have more time.

[Wilms]

6. kick n/t

[Carolab]

8. I don't trust Dill.

I've seen his testimony before--with Dean Heller of Nevada (ugh--Mr. "we solved our problem with a paper trail"). I've written him a number of times and he's responded and I didn't like any of his answers.

And I don't trust AutoMark.

AutoMark is just a glorified optiscan system--provides audible response for the blind. Big deal.

[truckin]

9. I think you might wrong about David Dill. Everything that I have

seen or heard from him, from his appearance in "Invisible Ballots" to his founding of Verified Voting, tells me that he is committed to this cause.

[Wilms]

10. Lay it on us, Carolab

What's with AutoMark?

What should the blind use?

What should voters with mobility-limiting disabilities use?

[Bill Bored]

11. Well, some people say everyone should use...

HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS!!!

[Wilms]

12. If this guy lives, he may have difficulty with your method.

I know what "everyone" says. But do they care what this soldier thinks?

[Wilms]

18. Sorry Bill, I got that wrong.

This guy will be able to generate and verify a paper ballot. We just need to get it into the ballot box SECRETLY. And that shouldn't be a problem.

Once done, it can be Hand Counted.

[Carolab]

13. What I know is that AutoMark is being promoted by our SOS in MN.

And she is an extreme partisan who tried a number of maneuvers to disenfranchise voters this election. Plus it is made by ES&S.

From what I have seen it doesn't do a thing to solve the REAL problem--how the votes are COUNTED; i.e. it still relies on tabulators. There is a receipt printed for voter verification but so what? If the machines are hacked who will know unless there is a full hand recount of paper ballots?

Read this from United Spinal for their take on it and how it addresses voters with disabilities:

http://www.unitedspinal.org/pages.php?catid=231&pageid=808&PHPSESSID=3da946c5aa23962d43e09441ae4eae25

Dill's organization is pushing AutoMark and has information about it:

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/search.php?q=Automark

Kathy Dopp of USCountVotes says it is the "least worst" alternative of the four that were considered by Utah.

[Bill Bored]

14. Counting is another issue.

This is vote casting. Nothing wrong with that. You can hand count an Automarked ballot as easily as a hand marked one.

The Automark does the verification for the voter, as seen on the video
<http://www.voiceofthenationsblind.org/transcripts/80/automark-voter-assist-terminal-demonstration>

It also seems to alert the voter to undervotes, and does not allow overvotes. So if it passes the Automark's tests, the ballot should also be accepted by the scanner.

The question is: Is it certified (yet), HAVA compliant, and all that jazz?

Also, what's needed is a way to get the ballot into a box so that a poll worker can put it in an envelope without seeing it (in case the voter can't handle the paper ballot). Wilms figured this out at least a month ago. Maybe someone should call ES&S and tell them! Otherwise, it's going to be DRE City unless our disabled brethren express a preference for verified voting instead, or HAVA says the Automark is good enough without the "glove box."

Still it may be difficult to convince some BOEs and legislators who seem to want to please everyone.

[Bill Bored]

15. Check this out:

"According to Ellen Bogard, a spokesperson for ES&S, the voting machine company which markets the system, the AutoMark ensures the privacy of every voter. A voter would be able to use a secrecy sleeve which would protect the ballot from view, and for those who require assistance handling the ballot ES&S can “prepare ballots without any candidate names, initiatives or other ballot measures printed on the document.” "

The sleeve doesn't sound too bad, but the ballot without the name is ludicrous! Can't be hand counted or recounted that way! Shows where these people's heads are at!

I think the Automark is usable, but it needs a little work and cost may still be an issue at locations where there will be only one machine for the entire polling place.

[Wilms]

16. Do you know what it costs?? n/t

[Bill Bored]

21. Read some of your own links (if you have time) :)

One of them (ElectionLine) said it costs $5,000 and a DRE in MD was $2,800. It did not say how accessible the DREs in MD are and I know they don't have printers, so the $3,000 might be a better number. I'm sure all these prices are subj. to negotiation. If I were the vendor, I'd throw in the Automarks for free if they bought my Op Scans statewide!

Also, there's the issue of screen size, if the whole ballot needs to be displyed at one time, according to some law. But this would apply to both DREs and the Automark I guess.

[Wilms]

22. Thanks.

And I think the law saying something about the entire ballot showing on one screen is HAVA. I'm not clear on it, though.

[Amaryllis]

19. Blind use tactile ballots in RH and in at least one OR county.

[Wilms]

20. Unfortunately, that doesn't assist the mobility-limited voter. n/t

[ccarter84]

17. I do, he seems pretty straight up

This is of course indirectly through relatives who know him, but I tend to trust their instincts except when it comes to investments
-cc

[kberland]

23. Automark certification

1. There is a video on the ES&S website, www.essvote.com. You can also see information at www.automarkts.com.

2. The Automark machine has now received approval by the ITA (independent testing authority) and is now awaiting a NASED certification number, expected in June. There is an announcement to this same effect on the ES&S website, www.essvote.com, dated 5/9/05.

3. ES&S is acting as the distributor. Automark Technical Systems is the inventor and owner of the intellectual property involved. As required by the rules, certification tests were done by the ITAs. In this case, SysTest and Ciber.

--Kerry Berland

[truckin]

24. That's great news!

Thanks for the info Kerry.

[Bill Bored]

25. Video here:

<http://www.voiceofthenationsblind.org/transcripts/80/automark-voter-assist-terminal-demonstration>

Truckin:

In you fight in CT, consider also that VVPAT printers that preserve the order in which the votes are cast can be used to violate the secrecy of the ballot. If the sequence of voters is also known, the votes on the VVPAT roll can be associated with individual voters whose identity is known from poll books, etc. Not so with Op Scan paper ballots because they are just thrown into a box after scanning.

Watch out when using this argument that no one proposes PAPERLESS DREs as the solution though!

Good luck!

[truckin]

26. Thanks Bill

That is a very informative video although the audio seemed a little disorienting. Once the Automark is fully certified, the OpScan option should become much more viable and should put more pressure on our elected officials in CT and NY to avoid DREs.

Good luck to you in NY also and keep us informed on any new developments.

[Bill Bored]

27. Well I assume you know that blind folks sometimes listen to high speed

audio because it's fater for them to read that way.
The speed on the Automark is adjustable though.

[truckin]

30. I was not aware of that. I learn something new on DU all the time.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

28. Ballot marking devices, op scans and DREs, comparisons

The Automark is a ballot marking device only.
It is close to certification.
It can mark most any optical scan ballot, so states/counties that already have optical scanners can keep their equipment and buy one ballot marking device per precinct.

Otherwise, states might try to use either:

optical scanners with one DRE per precinct, meaning that they run dual systems, bad idea
or
switch to 100% DREs, even worse.

The failures of DRE voting has created a backlash, and the ballot marking device is a smart solution. There is no perfect solution.

The President of the Tech Dept of the National Federation of the Blind has endorsed the Automark, which eliminates one obstacle.

Other companies can make ballot marking devices too, and Avante may be the next one.

There are no good paper ballot DREs at this time, except for AccuPoll which is the first paper ballot DRE to meet 2002 Federal standards.
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050511005245&newsLang=en

COMPARE COST, SHORT TERM AND LONG, ACCURACY AND ACCESSIBILITY

DREs - minimum of 10 per precinct ( serving 150 to 200 voters each) at $3,000 go $4,500 each total per precinct: $30,000 to 45,000
Optical scanners plus 1 ballot marking device $9,200 per precinct.*
http://www.ncvoter.net/solutions.html

ACCURACY:

CURRENT DREs throw away votes -
North Carolina Study indicating that optical scan machines have the most consistent and
lowest undervote rates of the various technologies used this past election. 2004 report
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~justin/voting/totals.html

DREs in New Mexico dropped votes 5 times as often as optical
scanners did: Nov 2004 http://www.votersunite.org/info/newmexicophantomvotes.asp

Florida study indicating that DREs had 8 times as many undervotes as optical scanners:
July 2004. http://www.verifiedvotingfoundation.org/article.php?list=type&type=26

BALLOT MARKING DEVICE DISABLED ACCESSIBLE:

NFB official letter of endorsement for the Autmark ballot marking device here,
see the right side margin for link: http://www.automarkts.com/

ACCESSIBILITY: many of the current DREs in use fail to meet the HAVA disability standards. Especially in North Carolina.

[truckin]

31. You make some excellent points!

[Wilms]

32. Thanks for the education. n/t

[garybeck]

29. is there video of Dill's testimony?

I was only able to find the video for the whole shabang; i'd love to get just Dill's testimony. if anyone knows where I can link right to his testimony please let me know.

gb