From the author of NY's Paper Ballots bill! This is SWEET!

[Bill Bored]

From the web page of Assemblywoman Sandy Galef. Check this out!:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/member_files/090/20050318/

“SCAN AND BE SURE”
A Voting Machine Campaign for New York State

My colleague Assemblywoman Barbara Lifton and I are launching the “SCAN AND BE SURE” campaign that proposes paper ballots and optical scanning machines along with a marking system for the disabled. We want this to be the voting system chosen by New York as we implement the Help America Vote Act (HAVA). We believe that having voters fill out paper ballots and scanning them through an electronic optical system is secure, simple, accessible, transparent, and economical. It does not have the heavy price tag and security problems seen in electronic voting systems.

The concern about New York’s possible adoption of an electronic voting system was brought to me by my constituents who had volunteered in other states during the last presidential election and saw the flaws in electronic voting. While researching new voting procedures, I was very impressed with a model demonstration in Albany that had paper ballots that were optically scanned. I favor this approach as the best one for our state.

<snip>

This bill deserves our support!

[Wilms]

1. Bravo! n/t

[Carolab]

2. The problem is the TABULATORS.

Scanning the ballots doesn't work UNLESS the tabulators aren't hacked.

[Wilms]

3. Correct.

But it's better than having problems with DRE's as well.

Sure would be nice to audit the OpScans, though.

[Bill Bored]

4. Tell me something I don't know!

First of all, they're not just tabulators, they're Election Management Systems. That's much worse.

Secondly, do you know what precinct-count scanning is? Sure you do!

Give me a bunch of precincts, a spreadsheet and a web page and the big bad "hacked tabulator" problem is solved.

Let me see if I can explain this in the words of our fearless leader:

We're workin' hard.
And it's hard work.
We have a lot of hard workin' folks.
Good folks with good hearts.
Strong leaders.

We need people to support paper ballots for NY.

As Don Rumsfeld would say:

Can the tabulators be hacked? Sure!
Can we detect that if we know the precinct totals? You bet!
Is this bill perfect? No.
But can we win without it? Probably not.
Would I like to have all the ballots hand counted? Sure.
Will the legislature mandate that now? Probably not.
Can we put in some procedures to audit the ballots and test the scanners? You bet!

OK?

If we get the paper, we can test the scanners and move on from there.
If we don't, we're screwed.

[Wilms]

5. Yes. But paraphrasing Field Marshall Von Rumsfeld is creeping me out.

[oscar111]

8. where are rummy's medals?

and his sash?

[davidgmills]

15. Men in Uniform -- The ladies are going to wilt n/t

[kster]

6. Are we?

(Give me a bunch of precincts, a spreadsheet and a web page and the big bad "hacked tabulator" problem is solved)

This sounds good but, aren't there Mathematicians,statisticians still counting today five months after the election. Giving us every indication that Kerry won? Wouldn't it be better to know within a day or so who won?

[oscar111]

7. No! optical scanners no good. Canada hand counts. toss scanners

sure u can check the scanners with precincts spreadsheets.

but only close elections get checked, so to cheat, make sure you win big.

tricks come up , new , later on if complexity exists . end all complexity, toss all machines.

canada hand counts.

good enough for us too.

cheaper than the ny method.

{suppose they also hack your spreadsheet website?}

[Bill Bored]

13. Does Canada use hand counting for ALL their elections? nt

[Bill Bored]

11. I'll settle for a week, but the reason why they are still futzing around

is because there aren't enough precinct count systems,
there are a large number of totally paperless systems, and the exit polls show unexplained discrepancies which actually don't correlate well with any particular voting system that I'm aware of at least at the state level.

The example of Oregon isn't a good one because that's not a precinct count system and there were other states that were fully paperless where the exit polls were very close to the vote count.

Also, there was a lot of suspicious stuff in Ohio, even with paper ballots, mostly punch cards.

So I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

My point was that "tabulator hacks", while they might make good TV, can be detected by looking at precinct totals and adding them up without the tabulators. There are much more serious problems that can affect within-precinct vote counts (which did NOT agree with the exit polls, BTW) that need to be addressed.

[Boredtodeath]

9. Excellent work, Bill!

The activists in NY have worked diligently to impact this decision! Keep plugging away and win this battle, you've made great strides in winning the war.

Don't let the naysayers on this thread dissuade you.

[Kip Humphrey]

10. BEWARE HIDDEN BALLOTS and SECRET COUNTING!

This is a repost of my previous DU post because it is important to understand we cannot settle for HIDDEN BALLOTS - SECRET COUNTING:

Here are the facts:

Start with a paper ballot - good!

Scanning paper ballots "interprets" the voter's intent on the paper and "derives" a data record which is then tabulated or counted. Hence, the paper ballot is NOT counted; the interpreted and derived data record is counted, and is, therefore, the REAL ballot.

If New York adopts Diebold's GEMS software, for instance, the tabulated totals and data records are all subject to undetectable vote tampering.

PAPER BALLOTS - HAND COUNTED!

OR

A. Open the master vote database to public inspection and independent tabulation (No secret counting!)
B. Provide a means for voters to verify that their data record is correct (Show me my ballot that's counted!)
C. Provide a mechanism whereby voters can challenge and correct erroneous data records (stop programmed fraud in its tracks!)
D. Supply the public with total precinct-level vote "head counts" by counting up the number of paper ballots (prevent vote data record database stuffing)

Hand count paper ballots or insist on these safeguards, else New York will be entirely at the mercy of the integrity and character of your SoS. Ask yourself: How secure and safe are the proposed voting protections in the hands of a Kenneth Blackwell?

Remember: Paper ballots are useless, misleading, and potentially the ultimate votescam if they are not counted!

[Bill Bored]

12. "Start with a paper ballot - good!"

Thanks. That's where we are right now and it will take as much effort as we can muster to get that far.

[Kip Humphrey]

14. New York needs our full support - the next battleground state after Calif

We are in the fight of our lives nationawide as the RNC comes out to play! California, Ohio, New York... We need full mobilization and all the support we can muster.

[Carolab]

17. KIP!!!! This is SO DEAD ON.

Here's a big kiss from me for this excellent list.

Who else have you been providing this to?

[Kip Humphrey]

18. so far...

e-USE members
Oregon Voting Rights Coalition
National Election Reform conferees
David Cobb
DUers
and working on Jimmy Carter

[Bill Bored]

19. Oh, BTW our SOS has nothing to do with elections!

We have a bi-partisan BOE for that, although not always exactly evenly divided.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't believe we have a Blackwell equivalent here, even in an organizational sense. The SOS is just in charge of the state's business records and that sort of thing. You know, like a "SECRETARY" is supposed to do!

I don't know where these SOS's get there authority from, but perhaps some of these states should look at changing their Constitutions or something. You shouldn't have ONE person running an election!

[Wilms]

16. kick n/t