Which way does the burden of proof go?

[scottxyz]

I don't think we should have to PROVE fraud.

The voting machine companies should have to PROVE legitimacy.

They're nowhere near able to do that right now - they have fishy results, and no paper trail.

Therefore, we don't have a legitimate election. Recounts aren't enough - we need to revote.

[HEAVYHEART]

1. I totally agree. But I highly doubt that a re-vote will happen.

[leftchick]

2. I agree!

It won't happen but I agree. The US really must look like a bannarepublic to the rest of the world right about now.

[jobycom]

3. It isn't so much who proves legitimacy as who approves legitmacy

This bothers me. We can demand that Ohio look into the legitimacy of its voting, and a few Republicans will decide that everything looks legite, and that will be the end.

The real question is, who do they have to prove legitimacy to? Us. The voters. If large numbers of voters are in doubt, then they should be required to make US happy. I'm getting tired of this Republican paternalistic BS. WE are the government, they are the hired help.

[library_max]

4. It goes right out the window.

Republicans control Congress, the courts, the media, and the statehouses in the states in question. So what are you going to do about it?

[pointsoflight]

5. EXACTLY

Any reasonable set of procedures would have an auditing process built in, with a random sample of 5% of precincts audited to make sure there weren't undectected problems. This should be standard, even when there aren't indications of problems.

No one runs their books like this. Why should the standards be so much lower for the most important decision we make as an electorate?

When we supervise foreign elections, we don't let them run their elections like this. Why should it be so much inferior here at home.

There is no reasonable explanation for the way we run our elections. Simply none.

[newyawker99]

7. Hi pointsoflight!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[BayStateBoy]

6. The Burden of Proof is sadly upon us n/t

[Karenina]

8. No, No, Nanette!!!

When a precint of 600 returns 3,9XX votes, it is up to the OWNERS of the machines to PROVE their reliability.

Election 2004 Ernest Partridge: 'Do we still have a democracy?'

By Ernest Partridge, The Crisis Papers
http://www.crisispapers.org/essays/democracy.htm


The issue of the reliability of paperless electronic voting is fundamentally misconceived: The citizen is not obligated to prove that his ballot is secure; instead, the citizen has a right to be confident that his vote will be counted, as he cast it. And for reasons acknowledged by both the critics and defenders of "e-voting," the American citizen who votes with these machines, is denied this fundamental right. Was the 2004 Presidential election "fixed"?

The question is virtually absent in the mainstream, corporate media, as if it is at least "impolite" and at worst paranoid and delusional even to ask it.. The final totals of this election are an undisputed "given," and media discussion follows from this hard-core assumption. The issue of the validity of the final election returns, for the nation or for pivotal states such as Florida and Ohio, is rarely raised in the mainstream media.



Meanwhile, in "the internets" speculation as to the fairness and validity of the "official" vote count is active and increasing. Bev Harris' BlackBoxVoting.org has filed the most extensive Freedom of Information action in history, in an attempt to prove that "fraud took place in the 2004 election through electronic voting machines. And Greg Palast has proclaimed straight-out that, had all the votes been counted, John Kerry would have won Ohio, Florida, and therefore the election.
It's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. At 1:05 a.m. Wednesday morning, CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. The exit polls were later combined with -- and therefore contaminated by -- the tabulated results, ultimately becoming a mirror of the apparent actual vote. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x32688

[robbedvoter]

9. Here's a good answe from someone who knows

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x34585