The Kerry People are on the case. Please stop posting Cam Kerry's email.

[Skinner]

This was posted earlier, but I'm going to re-post it under my name so everyone sees it. I have verified with PeteNYC over at the Kerry Campaign that this email message from Cameron Kerry is real. Please stop posting that other email message with Cam Kerry's email address. That message has already been posted dozens of times, and the moderators keep having to delete it.

Anyway, Pete tells me that the Kerry Campaign is well aware of the alleged voting irregularities, and they've got a bunch of lawyers looking into it. At this point, there simply are not enough votes for us to win this thing, so please don't expect JK to un-concede. But the Kerry People are well aware of the whole situation, and they have not abandoned us. I told Pete that I didn't think anyone really expected Kerry to un-concede, particularly if there aren't enough votes. But win or lose, many people are alarmed by the reports of voting irregularities, and it's important that these these allegations are not being ignored.

So, here's Cam Kerry's email. Yes, it's real...

I am grateful to the many people who have contacted me to express their deep concern about questions of miscounting, fraud, vote suppression, and other problems on election day, especially in Florida and Ohio. Their concern reflects how much people care about the outcome of this election. I want to you to know we are not ignoring it. Election protection lawyers are still on the job in Ohio and Florida and in DC making sure all the votes are counted accurately. I have been conferring with lawyers involved and have made them aware of the information and concerns people have given me. Even if the facts don't provide a basis to change the outcome, the information will inform the continuing effort to protect the integrity of our elections.

If you have specific factual information about voting problems that could be helpful to the lawyers doing their job, please send it to [e-mail] rather than to me.

The election protection effort has been important to me personally, and I am proud of the 17,000 lawyers around the country who helped. It's obvious that we have a way to go still, but their efforts helped make a difference. Their work goes on.

Thank you,

Cam Kerry

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Well, it's not John Kerry blazin' away with...

an M60, but that is as good as any reasonable person can expect.

[dogtag]

5. JK may be down in the engine room fixing the motor so

he can shortly turn the damn boat around and start firing.

p.s. I am so not superstitious, but I got giddy over all the 'signs' leading up to Nov. 2. Red Sox, Redskins................exit polls.

[yellowdogintexas]

79. nice analogy!

[George_S]

47. Thanks, Skinner. They will do what they can.

We can move on now, I think.

[BlueWolff]

2. I got the same email

Let's assume that they are really working on it!!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Am I welcoming a newbie or saying hi to an oldster with a new name?

:)

----------------------------------------------------------
Help expose the 2004 Election fraud!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Dark]

7. Welcome to DU Blue Wolff!

:hi:

[wicket]

3. Thanks for the update!

:kick:

[Nicholas_J]

4. I know i got this in the email from someone who was one of

The attorneys for the Kerry campaignion Florida yesterday, after it had been posted all over DU. People were denying the authenticity, but when I considered who it came from, I had to give it credence.

I am less interested in the unconceded aspect than proof that all of the mis-assigned votes were mis=assigned by plan, rather than by error.

From the math for the state of Florida, with the number by which democratic voters exceed the number ofregistered voters in FLorida, plus the supposed errors which indicate an enormous increase in republican voters in Florida, while also showing indications that the number of Democrtic votersin over 50 counties was reported to have dropped by anaverage of 50 percent, there is something about the results of the fFlorida election that stinks. There are only 67 counties Florida, and for 50 of them to show massive drops in Democratic voters is something that defies reality.

Also there are no indications at all that the errors effected Republican votes adversel;y anyewhere in the state.

It is starting to look like all that happened in Fl;orida was cheating on a massive scale with the knowledge that the job of traing the fraud backwards would be so enourmous that no one would want to do it.

As long as they are doing something. I have the greates confidence in Kerry's ability as an investigator and the fact that he absolutely will get to the bottom of whatever happened in this election, no matter how much time it takes. If this election was stolen, we will eventually find out about it.

[pleiku52cab]

10. Do not give up on Florida

lots of people are saying Ohio cant be won (without proof of fraud)

[renate]

89. yeah, why is Florida being ignored?

I wonder if Ohio is the focus simply because it was the last big state to chime in, the one we were all waiting around for--the one that put Bush over the top (supposedly). There were irregularities in Florida, too--and guessing from whose brother is governor, I would suspect that even more questionable things happened there than in Ohio. Is there a reason Florida isn't being talked about as much as Ohio is?

[jobycom]

12. One other thing...

Obfuscation. If there was a systematic, single effort by a centralized source--let's for the sake of argument call it Bush--to rig the elections, what better way to cover your tracks then by throwing out a few thousand obvious examples of fraud to divert attention?

So they plan to rig the election. They do so, but they also throw out a lot of little frauds, so Democrats can chase those down, add a few thousand more votes to their total, maybe even prosecute someone, and still miss the big picture. Just a possibility to keep in mind.

[CAcyclist]

25. I thought of that too

The thread that said we should have had a 70% turnout - we actaully had a 54% turnout if the official tally is accurate. So I calculated that we are missing over 30 million votes. See the thread asking if we are missing 10 million votes

[Eloriel]

29. I think that's what they did in FL 2000

tho not necessarily on purpose.

Remember how desperate (and I do mean desperate) Jim Baker was to prevent any further recounts? I think they were trying to keep the lid on the optical scan machines issue (don't know if they had touchscreens in some areas or not) and possibly even punch card tallying machines. Hanging and pregnant chads were a perfect foil for keeping attention on the smaller issue.

[Turn CO Blue]

81. A ha! Now you're beginning

to think like those scheming little Bushies...bad in one way, but good for our side (you'll stay on our side, won't you?)

[Syd_]

98. Forgive me if you all understand how this works ...

The Republicans didn't win any of the offices by any margin, nor did they lose. The same goes for the Democrats. It works this way. The kind of ballot doesn't matter. It can be paperless electronic (which has problems of its own), punch card ballot, other paper ballots, absentee ballots, military absentee ballots etc. ALL BALLOTS! The ballots are counted locally, in each precinct. The totals are then sent to the Central GEMS Tabulator in each county from all the precincts. The totals are then tallied by the GEMS Tabulator which is a regular computer with a windows OS and if you've ever used the "Remote Desktop Connection," you know how easily the final tabulation can be manipulated. It has a Diebold program that allows the totals to be changed without a trace. The GEMS Tabulator tallies as many as two million votes at a time. These tallies are what is given as the final number of votes.

Now for the "What do we do about it" part. With all forms of ballots, exept the paperless touch screen voting machines, there are still ballots that can be recounted. If those raw figures from each precinct are collected without going through the GEMS Tabulator, the jig is up! The plot is exposed and the villains foiled.

Now do you get it. Some of the "battleground" areas DID NOT use the touch screen paperless machines. There were a number of different types of ballots. There was NOT a clear mandate.


1. Massive numbers of people don't stand out in the rain or hot sun for hours just to vote for the status quo. 2. Kerry, was attracting crowds up to 60,000 people for his rallies. 3. There were negative votes. That is there was a record in several precints that a negative number of people voted at all. In some precincts there were more votes than there were registered voters. 4. In several Florida precincts, there was an emergency phone call that came in warning the precinct workers to unplug their modems, because there were hackers that were manipulating the votes. The precinct workers ignored the warning. Now does all that make sense?

Nobody won. Nobody lost. It didn't just affect the presidency, but the house and senate as well. There was no mandate. There was only what the GEMS tabultor said. The GEMS tabulator decided the election

[juliagoolia]

8. We just want to know our votes count ! Thats more important

this time than winning, because if votes don't count you can NEVER WIN>

We all need to know that.. thats all.

[Jack_Dawson]

9. How do we Know?

I mean...how do we know the Kerry people aren't all on vacation? Their boss threw in the towel in a nanosecond.

I need proof someone is on the case.

:shrug:

[Chimpanzee]

13. and I need the winning powerball ticket for tomorrow night n/t

[BayStateBoy]

How the Hell are they Positive There are Not Enough Votes to Win?

Even if the calculations are correct, if we can show that there was tampering regardless of the final vote, that would be one more nail in the coffin of BBV.

If we don't challenge this it will open the doors even more widely to massive fraud in the future. THe Democratic leadership just doesn't get it.

[leftchick]

22. I second that!

That is absurd to say they don't have enough vote to win! If there is fraud how the hell do they know? It sounds to me like they don't care to know. Here we are, fighting by ourselves again.

[Generator]

30. I know! I shouldn't say it but

I feel like we are now fighting against Kerry, when we should have him in our corner 100%. The DNC needs to take a poll or something, are we just the "fringe" that believes this, or the majority? Because there isn't going to be a Democratic party in four years if we don't feel our votes count.

I noticed it's all they've been talking about on AAR-the little I've listened-and all I get on my local station KBOO.

Besides, don't they get that by letting it seem like a "mandate", another illusion, another propaganda talking point- that they have let the worst case scenario happen?

The numbers matter.

[Revolutionary Mama]

38. Calculation's my arse!

I agree with Bay State Boy.

We need to scrap this election and have a second one with stronger security forces and paper ballots that provide the voters a personal copy of the ballots they cast. Scrap Diebold and optical scanners. Find a more secure way of handling absentee ballots during and after delivery.

One way, or another, we need to punish and make an example of every last domestic enemy that participated in violating our right to a fair election. If we can't get the courts to do it and we can't count on politicians and their lawyers to do it, then we need to take matters in our own hands.

We need to do it for our country, for democracy and for future generations. If we don't, then we don't deserve what so many people sacrificed much and fought hard to give us.

[sleepyhead]

68. Thank you!!!!!

<<We need to scrap this election and have a second one>>

I think so too. If only it could be done!

[Helga Scow Stern]

86. Here, here!

Now you are talking. It is now or never.

[Helga Scow Stern]

85. That really bugs me...

that they say there are not enough votes to win...that sounds like the same old denial of the issue. Winning is not the issue...how many votes there are is. But maybe they are saying "short of fraud" considerations. Just the same, they need to be more honest with us.

[NVMojo]

109. Baystateboy, that bothered me too when I read it ...how do they know?

[splat]

11. Count the votes, count the votes, count the votes

At this point, there simply are not enough votes for us to win this thing, so please don't expect JK to un-concede.

Skinner, that might be true as far as recounting one state (or might not) but the thrust of everything here is a widespread pattern of vote tampering and fraud covering many thousands of votes.

Presidential and Congressional candidates are involved.

There ARE enough votes involved in this to turn many races around. If they're only looking at "asking for a recount," they're shooting too low.

If the FBI gets involved...

[johnaries]

17. Since Bev Harris showed how easy it is to dial in and change

the records on the tabulating PC's, has anyone considered requesting the phone records of the tabulator modems to see if there were any unauthorized calls?

[Nicholas_J]

21. BBV has filed an FOIA

Request for the computer logs from all of the access points to the voting system. They are most interested in getting the records of people login onto the computer systems from outside on the day of the election nad records of what they tried to access.

[indigo11153]

18. Hell yes, COUNT EVERY VOTE!

Kerry needs to do what he promised. This is where we need to stand. This is what democracy is about. Count every damn vote. I don't care who wins. America wins if we count every vote! Does Kerry get it or not?
I still don't know. :grr:

[bullimiami]

32. It is not "many thousands of votes" it is millions.

Perhaps 5-7 million votes stolen systematically around the whole country. Dont downplay it.

[Helga Scow Stern]

87. Yes, do not downplay the number of votes at stake

that is why I feel betrayed when I hear Kerry et al say things like "there are not enough votes."

[bullimiami]

14. there are votes and there are fraudulant votes.

if we are just looking for a count within the rigged game that is this election we are stupid. regardless if we win or lose, we fight to take a stand against corruption. to force the country to look this in the eye and admit that this is a criminal administration and that democracy has been destroyed. otherwise we just enable it and invite our own destruction.

[Timefortruth]

15. There is another reason beside victory to pursue this.

That is there is no point in having elections at all if they are unfair and rigged. This madness has to stop now, and Kerry is the only one to fight the battle.

[Roachman]

19. Timefortruth is absolutely right.

We need this thing fought in the media and not just by lawyers. Kerry is the only one the media will pay attention to right now, especially with everything happening in the world. We need Kerry to fight for votes regardless of whether he can win. And, just maybe, if he did fight for them, he might win.

[stellanoir]

16. many of us have been well aware of the BBV issues

for quite some time. But what I personally didn't anticipate was the outrageously widespread disenfranchisement of so many voters. It was blatant and ugly and we can't let any of this ever happen again. Just hoping upon hope that it won't be too late for our democracy to again flourish.

Silly me.

[Eloriel]

33. That's why we need a Right to Vote Constitutional Amendment

put some teeth behind stopping vote suppression. Anyone who tries to suppress votes would then be guilty of an infringement of that person or group's Constitutional rights. It would force states to take a more pro-active AND more stringent approach to stopping vote fraud and vote suppression.

[TaleWgnDg]

20. Thank you , Skinner, for finally clarifying all the negativism . . .

It's good that DU has stepped forward and reiterated what's going on -- what's factually going on.

And, this DUer wishes to thank Cameron Kerry (JK's brother) for responding, clarifying this situation.

Regards.

[Calvinist Basset]

23. This is my first posting

I've been consulting this site for several weeks now. It's great to know there are so many people out there who think in a similar fashion as I!

In any case, I don't get this statement about "not enough to win." What the hell is that all about?

I feel, if even one set of votes was tampered with in any way (which I'm convinced there were many instances of tampering), the whole election ought to be challenged. And we as citizens of the U.S. should *demand* the resignation of Bush and Cheney, have them impeached, and/or hold a genuinely fair election.

Why not go ahead and contact Cam Kerry and tell her that the "not enough to win" focus is the wrong direction to take this thing? The election *needs* to be contested. Period. Anything less is allowing those putrid, rethug bastards to get away with their wrongdoing!

[spotbird]

27. Welcome aboard Calvin!

If it helps someone in the Kerry camp to think about the big picture, then contacting Cam may still be the way to go.

This is not about Kerry anymore it is about the future of the Democracy. In fact if he knew he would lose anyway and made it clear at the outset it may diffuse some of the criticism of demanding a recount and investigation.

[Calvinist Basset]

35. I agree.

This is an issue that's bigger than "The Smirk's" so-called win. It's about protecting our democracy. And I think that Kerry's low profile might be a wise way to keep the focus off of a perceived "sour grapes" response, and more on the facts about fraud.

Still, I sure wish I had Cam's e-mail address. I think it would be important to tell her (and the whole Kerry team) to worry less about whether there are "enough" votes to win, and more on whether this was a fair election (which it wasn't). Simply looking over the current counts or asking for a re-count--these measures don't go deep enough.

Frankly, I don't want to stop chipping away until we know for absolutely certain if "The Smirk" really won. Of course, once the whole picture is displayed, I'm sure there will be more than enough evidence to indicate that Kerry did win. There is still time to keep the chimpass from claiming the Oval Office again!

[Zen Democrat]

55. Cameron ("Cam") is his brother. n/t

[Calvinist Basset]

76. Oops!

I actually knew that--but I must have had a brain fart when I posted those earlier statements. Thanks.

[OneBlueSky]

31. absolutely . . . if Kerry's action hinges on "finding enough votes" . . .

that doesn't nearly go far enough . . . he should be willing to challenge results all over the country and have the whole damned election thrown out if need be . . . by restricting himself to "finding enough votes," he's guaranteeing that they're not going to pursue this the way is should be pursued, and that's beyond disappointing . . . just from what we already know, he should be withdrawing his concession and demanding investigations everywhere . . . it's not just about him . . . it's about all of us, and the future of the nation, particularly in the next four years . . . but it sounds like it will indeed end with a whimper . . . and I find that disgusting . . .

[Helga Scow Stern]

90. We need to hold all of our candidates accountable...

if he abandons this fight, abandons us, he will have to pay. The party will have to pay.
It was too shocking when it happened in 2000. There is no excuse this time. And besides that, we are in the jaws of a fascist takeover. Now is the time to get the bud-nippers working.

[sunnybrook]

113. Cameron Kerry is not a her...

this is the candidate's BROTHER. FYI...

[tandot]

24. Thanks, Cam Kerry. Thanks, Skinner.

It gives me hope to know that they'll stay on it.

We want all of our votes counted and all of our voices heard. Our voting system is a complete disgrace. How can we trust future elections?

With a voting system like this, I don't see any hope for America's future. Why not just declare Bush the King of America and get rid of elections completely :mad:

[spotbird]

26. The hope is gives is that if they think they'll win they'll stay on it.

If they're sure it won't benefit them, then the electoral process be damned.

It actually sucks pretty bad.

[Senior citizen]

28. I was at a Count Every Vote rally today in San Diego

for winning mayoral candidate Donna Frye.

The other two candidates were both pukes, and they split their vote, so Donna, the only write-in candidate, and the only Democrat in a city where registered Dems outnumber pukes, won the election.

The pukes immediately went to court to stop the vote count.

They don't mind being seen as sore losers, poor losers, cry babies, people who can't accept the results and move on. They are determined to grab or retain power no matter what it takes--including court cases, voter disenfranchisement, dirty tricks, etc.

DONNA WON! And they cannot and will not accept it.

So don't tell me about the impossibility of winning in Ohio. From the statistics I've seen, I think we did win in Ohio, but even if we lost, that is no reason to concede or give up without a fight. We are not children with authoritarian puke parents telling us to do as they say, not as they do. If we want to pretend that Democrats are a second political party, and not just puke collaborators, Democrats have to act like they care about winning elections more than they care about what pukes will think of them if they fight back. Yes, they'll call us every name in the book--so sticks and stones to them. The principles of democracy are at stake here. COUNT EVERY VOTE!

[bullimiami]

34. senior. right on.

i heard harry freakin reed on ed shultz today. saying to get past it and how they are going to fight for us.

bullhockey. if they dont fight now the democratic party, democracy is DONE.

DONE. they dont get it. they are not dealing with anyone who gives a flying leap what they think or want. the rigged election will take the supermajority in 06 and we can kiss our democratic asses goodbye.

the door is open and fascism has it foot in. SLAM IT.

[Laelth]

37. Very nicely said.

I couldn't agree more.

:toast:

-Laelth

[ReadTomPaine]

75. Yes exactly, stop worrying what Republicans think!

The more they squeal, the closer you are to hitting home.

RTP

[Ladyhawk]

97. Yes, I'm sick of all this tiptoeing around.

I don't care if it wouldn't be "politically prudent" for Kerry to come out, guns blazing, against this. Pubbies act however they want to and get away with it. Maybe it's because they have the media in their pocket.

I wish Kerry would fight them all: pukes, rotten voter fraud, media. Everything. :(

[Catherine Vincent]

36. Remember when John Kerry was caught off mic and uttered how

the Bush folks are nothing but a bunch of damn crooks? He was right. Now I realize that when all the fraud that took place is uncovered and they show proof, it won't matter. Bush is not leaving that White House. His people stole it for him again! There may be articles here and there stating how Kerry really won but it won't matter. Too f'ing late. You don't think Bush will be told to leave, do ya? This is making me sick to my stomach!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[VTHoosierPatriot]

41. It's not official until the electoral college convenes next month,

and concessions aren't binding. Rest assured that nothing will happen. Kerry gets first dibs on the hookers at the next Skull & Bones meeting.

[Pachamama]

107. Kerry has Teresa...she is more woman and more desirable to him than

any hooker at a Skull & Bones meeting would ever offer....

Is that really what you think of John Kerry? Guess you didn't support him, eh?

:eyes:

[Jo March]

39. Sorry, Skinner, but I do want him to unconcede if we get the

recount and he has the most votes. Yep. I do. Stupid as it may sound but I do want Kerry to unconcede if those two events happen.

My $0.02.

[Ladyhawk]

99. As much as it would divide the country (further), I want him to unconcede.

If there was massive voter fraud--and I believe there was--why do we have to roll over. AGAIN. Pink tutu democrats at it again. :(

[molly]

40. It must be difficult to fight a battle with the weight of children

hanging around your neck. This is mild compared to what I really wanted to say.

[graywarrior]

42. I have nothing to say except

I attended a protest tonight in Bradenton FL regarding fraudulent voting. Local news showed up to cover it.

Tomorrow I will attend a meeting with college students at New College to discuss further activities and protests.

I will not stop participating, organizing and speaking out. Things are beginning to happen. Kerry can do what he wants. I'll just keep on truckin' and keep the candle burning.

I carried a DemocraticUnderground sign at tonights protest, so we were all represented.

[AmyCrat]

44. How many were at the protest? n/t

[graywarrior]

46. Only about 30, but this group registered thousands before the election.

A black minister gave a rousing speech about the people rising up and the backlash that Bush's administration will experience over the next few months.

[Jo March]

45. You rock, graywarrior

You are awesome. Let's head on out to Ohio next, shall we?

[graywarrior]

48. Thanks, but I just participated with a very focused group who

are on a mission. Several of them (and they are oldtimers) were arrested and spend 3-6 months in fed prison for crossing the lines at the School of Americas protest last year.

There will be another protest in Georgia this November.

[tavalon]

70. New College!

My Alma Mater! Why am I not surprised, that bastion of 60s liberalism.

[American liberal]

96. way to go, graywarrior

I am with you in spirit.

[PATRICK]

43. When is an election rendered null by fraud?

Who sets that standard and who can make the decision untainted by influence? This seems taboo not legal territory as with much of election law. I listened long and hard on C-Span to the NAACP lawyers explaining their history of combating injustices in voting, which of course covered the gamut. The satisfaction received in verdicts covered the gamut to, up to reversing election results.

So they can impeach Bill for lying about sex, but the president is clearly above election law and getting higher by the day?

Also the FOCUS of the issue has to be set, if not for Kerry, then for redemption of the integrity of the system- and no compromises with GOP backdoors and reneging on promises. They broke their word about intimidation at the polls. Are they no consequences for that?

Meanwhile the soft lies sink deep into a BIG section of the Kerry voters.

Skinner, everybody. This is a rare place open to the issue that people can come to. Can we clear the sandbox somewhere to let visitors easily access the investigation? Links, studies, ongoing probings, charts and statistics, etc. It is equally discouraging to us to see the stuff tossed about in the whirlwind, the usual backtrackings of the overeager, the rants, the impatience. I know it sorts out or peters out but we may have more impact if people outside can see where this is really going.

As of now it appears that without a penalty for e-voting fraud except for the most obvious and unarguable corrections there is no statistical hope of finding "winning" votes and of course lawsuits against fraud will be small and late. Second it appears dubious to me what clout anything will have to retake the fraud means or even bargain with the Repugs OR even get the masses riled enough to fight through the propaganda.

Just knowing someone is there is a big plus, but truth deserves better. Can't save the election process if we can't save the truth.

[saracat]

49. Not enough votes? Don't expect Kerry to unconcede?

Then you are saying there is nothing to hope for. This doesn't help. This is making my sense of depression worse. Maybe we should all leave. If we can't prove fraud and there aren't enough votes that sounds like giving up to me.He even implies that the lawyers made a difference and secured the vote. Well, that doesn't cut it for me. I didn't work to secure the vote for Bush. And it isn't enough to work on the irregularities. I want Bush gone.That is what we expected and we expected Kerry to fight using whatever means possible. You told Pete that you didn't think anyone really expected Kerry to unconcede, particularly if there aren't enough votes? Speak for yourself.There are many of us who do expect him to unconcede. But if this is true, we may have to make other assumptions.

[ClassWarrior]

92. It isn't enough to work on the irregularities??

All that's at stake there is democracy itself!! THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME!! Damn! I want to be confident in my vote in 2006.

And if, just by chance, there ARE enough votes to put JK/JE in office... well that's bonus!!

:7

NGU.

[Syd_]

102. It's the tabulator

that throws off the actual count. If the vote count in each precinct is checked as they were before being sent to the Central GEMS Tablulator there will be enough votes for Kerry to win. It's not until the votes are tallied by the Central GEMS Tabulator that the final count in each county is manipulated making it appear that the vote count is too small for Kerry to win.

[rwduke]

50. My First Post...This Election Is Fraudulent

Hello everyone. I have been reading this site for several months now and have decided to join in.

First let me say that I am glad that Kerry is looking into this fraudulent election but the direction they are going seems misguided to me. (As others have pointed out)

They only seem interested in making sure "all the votes are counted." What is the point if the votes aren't accurate?

I mean, can somebody tell me what we are doing voting on machines created by the opposing party? The Republicans created the machines, they tallied the votes, they kept the source code private and they refused to give us paper ballots for recounts. Is this what America has come to? For real?

What is wrong with the Democratic leaders for not fighting this tooth and nail before we even got to this point? These machines go beyond conflict of interest, they are downright absurd. Can you imagine the Republicans agreeing to vote on these machines if the shoe was on the other foot? That's what I thought.

This investigation has to go beyond counting the votes. It has to be an investigation leading to the removal of these partisan, anti-democracy machines from our elections. How stupid are we? Turning over our votes to Republicans. They are determining the winner? Somebody pinch me, this has to be a nightmare. It is too strange to be reality.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

51. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[rwduke]

53. Thanks For Welcoming Me NamVetsWeeLass

:hi:

[saracat]

54. Welcome. Great Post!

[AgadorSparticus]

105. i agree. if the voting fraud is proven and bush didn't win numerically,

why should he concede this election? because all the media whores have deemed it so? i'm not willing to give them a pass on anything. i want the rightful president and a thoroughly audited election--both of which i have every right to.

[Tab]

52. This is an apropros letter

From Phyllis Hasbrouck, as posted on http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1107-24.htm

Hey, John Kerry! I want my $25 back!

I gave it to your campaign specifically for the fight around a contested election. Your e-mail said, "In the post-election period of 2002, the Republicans had four times as much money as we did. With your donation, we'll be ready this time, with an army of lawyers prepared for any contingency." You probably raised millions from that appeal, and we figured you really meant it.

Early Wednesday morning, we heard John Edwards say "We've waited four years for this victory, we can wait another night." Later that morning, on "Democracy Now!" I heard stories that made my blood boil, about how Ohio voters were deprived of their right to vote by 10 hour lines, broken machines and late absentee ballots. I heard that the votes in Florida's cities, cast on easy-to-hack Diebold machines, were not reported until after it was clear just how big a margin Bush would need.

And then at noon you caved in and gave a concession speech. Say what?! I heard that you were under pressure from "members of (your) own party to concede for the good of the nation." What the hell is that supposed to mean?

How can it be good for our nation to be subjected to four more years of Bush? If you think that a tidy beginning to a national nightmare is more important than a messy beginning to a fresh start for America, why did you bother to run?

Why did you campaign so hard and speak so eloquently about the reign of death and destruction that the Bush gang of thieves is about to intensify, if you couldn't stand a protracted legal battle to uncover voter intimidation and fraud? I volunteered for your election for a month, putting in 78 hours on 25 days canvassing my neighbors (and many more hours calling and entering data). My house is a wreck and my family neglected. I was dead tired at the end, but I would have worked that hard for another month or more if you had led the effort to make our votes count.

You can be sure that if the Republicans had been in your position they would have fought tooth and nail to pull a victory out of defeat. Why didn't you give investigative journalist Greg Palast a million of our donated dollars to run an investigation into black box vote fraud in Florida? Why didn't you send your army of lawyers to fight for every provisional ballot in Ohio? Why did you betray our hopes?

A real leader would have organized a coordinated strategy of legal challenges, popular demonstrations in the streets and a public relations blitz to let the actual votes of the American people be counted fairly. Sound familiar? It's what the Republicans did in 2002, and it worked. I'm not suggesting that we should cheat like they did, but we would have shown an avalanche of activism in defense of the people's right to vote, if you had only led the way.

You had on your side Air America, MoveON, ACT and many more groups who would have joined the fray to make it possible, for the first time ever, to stop and reverse, and possibly rerun, a fraudulent election. Think of how glorious it would have been, how energized your millions of dedicated volunteers would have been, had they actually beaten back another right-wing attempt to steal their democracy!

Do you really believe that stuff you said about "a time for healing"? The time for healing comes after you win a battle, not in the middle of it. The totalitarian leaders of the new Republican Party will never "work in a bipartisan spirit," nor do they give a damn about "our desperate need for unity." They have left behind the old rules of civility and are marching us toward a one-party police state. You too need to leave behind old assumptions, like "When you lose an election, even if it was stolen, it isn't nice to make too big a fuss. Someone might accuse you of not being statesmanlike."

In the game of politics, it seems that the Republicans are one step ahead of us: Just as the American electorate starts to wake up to the fiscal, moral and environmental disasters the Republicans have created, presto! - a voting "reform" brings in the magical black box voting machine, guaranteed to produce a Republican victory every time. The people's movement for real democracy needs to make paper ballots our No. 1 priority.

So goodbye, John Kerry, and send me back my $25. You obviously don't need it anymore, and I'm looking for a group that can use it

[ChefGlenn]

56. Where is the Proof?

Instead of taking poles to see what your party thinks of DU posters, you should fight for what you believe in. I did not vote for Kerry for my own reasons, but there is something wrong with the top of the Democratic party.

The worse thing that could happen did, Kerry won your party nomination, when it should have been Dean. He at least is consistent and has convictions unlike Kerry.

[Ladyhawk]

100. Yes, and send back the hundreds I donated and couldn't afford, too. nt

[Matilda]

57. It's very encouraging to know that the Kerry people are on to it.

Even if it can't be proven that Kerry should have won, it's still
very important to prove that fraud did take place.

Because unless the words "decency" and "honesty" are now meaningless,
the people should demand that Bush resign. No matter how they voted,
all Americans need to know that their votes cannnot be tampered with.

Kerry needs to speak out regardless of whether he's going to
unconcede, and the Democratic Party as a body needs to demand
veririfiable paper ballots. After all, there's only one reason why
anybody would not want to have a paper trail - they want to hide
the evidence of fraud.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tab]

59. Are you sure?

Diebold's corporate headquarters is located in Ohio.

Diebold's CEO was on record as promising to deliver (although it didn't say how) the State of Ohio to Bush.

Ohio's Governor is a former campaign manager for Bush.

And I'm pretty sure there were some Diebold machines in use in Ohio.

[ChefGlenn]

62. Learn the Facts

From Dan Trevas, Ohio Democratic Party Communications Director:


Ohio did not use modern electronic voting machines in this election. Six counties use an older form of electronic voting, which has a means of verifying the accuracy of the vote. In 69 Ohio Counties, punch card ballots were used.

[theredpill]

91. You don't have to have electronic voting machines to rig an election

There is software that states use written by Diebold called GEMS. It is a central tabulator for all votes whether by electronic, paper, etc. These votes on the tabulator machines can easily be manipulated without a trace. It is easier to manipulate a state that cannot produce paper ballots from the electronic voting machines. It is very easy to change the vote count in the database and has been proven. This is also how so many extra votes could easily be padded to already red states, giving GW a realistic mandate. This how they did it, I am pretty sure. It will be hard to prove, unless they were sloppy and lets hope they were!

[AmyCrat]

60. Diebold makes more than e-vote equipment

They also make optical scanners, as as I understand it (anyone correct me if I'm wrong here) optical scanners are exactly what is used for certain types of paper ballots, including punch cards. Many areas of Ohio still use punch cards that would require being scanned in (to be counted).

[ChefGlenn]

67. It's a state issue, not National!

States purchase, maintain and decide where the voting machine go. THIS IS NOT A NATIONAL ISSUE! It's a state thing.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. And you keep telling us to "Get over it"

Did you also chant "Sore Loserman" in 2000?

"Get over it" is more important than the constitutional right of having your vote count? Please.

Enjoy your brief stay.

[Warren Stupidity]

111. "And you keep telling us to "Get over it""

"Get over it" is more important than the constitutional right of having your vote count? Please.


Actually I think the constitution has little or nothing to say about your right to have your vote count. I don't think that there is even a requirement to have *any* voting at all, in the sense of direct voting, for presidential elections. That idiotic electoral college mechanism is all that is mandated, and how each states selects its electors is up to each state. The only constitutional issues involve equality - as in the 'one man one vote' decisions back when the supreme court actually protected individual rights, and in the recent and bizarre selection of bush jr. in 2000 using a rather warped interpretation of equal protection theories.

[Cookie wookie]

82. Here in Georgia the same code used in the

Diebold TR6 touchscreen voting stations, GEMS, is also programmed into the Optical Scanners. Absentee ballots are fed into those. The big difference, of course, between the touchscreen PCMCIA cards which hold the votes, and the ballots counted by OptiScan is that there is a paper trail for the latter. But getting to recount those ballots, there's the rub. This code, if I'm not mistaken, is used for all Diebold Election Systems' technology.

I'll add here that there is an audit trail of sorts for the touchscreen voting, depending on voting procedures in various states. There's precinct headcounts that are to be checked against ballots cast numbers throughout the day and there are headcounts done in various ways at the precinct. Some of the new procedures in Georgia are eliminating more of the audit safeguards. For instance, in some precincts in Georgia for the 2004 election, voters were checked in via registration lists on computers. Of course, if someone wanted to make totals agree, say hypothetically to erase overvotes, they could alter the registration lists via the computer, adding digital, rather than actual, voters to the head counts.

At my precinct, Cathy Cox's (our Secretary of State) additional effort to keep votes from being audited hadn't arrived yet, so we filled out slips of paper which were saved as a part of the precinct record.

[Matilda]

66. I'm talking about any and all fraud, wherever it occurred.

The greatest difficulty that the Kerry camp will face will come from
the lack of proof where voting was by machines without paper trails.
And it's the Republicans who have opposed paper verification from
the start - why? Nothing to fear if they're honest.

[ReadTomPaine]

77. ChefGlenn now has a nice tomestone. He looks good under it.

[NVMojo]

110. well get this, Nevada is being touted as having all paper printers

so no one needs to look at their election numbers. BULLSHITE! They had over 2,100 Sequoias with NO PRINTERS for this election in Las Vegas. Go figure that one out, why are they spinning a false story about Nevada's machines? Throwing attention in a different direction??


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=201&topic_id=1859&mesg_id=1859

[Bread and Circus]

61. For me, it's not about Kerry un-conceding...it's about unveiling

criminal activity. Kerry's candidacy is nothing compared
to what could be wholesale election fraud.

We need new election machinery and safeguards. Can't Kerry even
stand up for that?

[peekaloo]

64. Agree! ...............eom

[vetwife]

63. Has anyone sent that clip to the that addy? the one of Pete King?

and Bush !

[liberal N proud]

65. You are my ray of hope!

What is left anyway.
Thanks.

[Tab]

71. EVEN IF

Even if there was no fraud in this election, we need to have auditable eVoting.

Otherwise every election from now to eternity will be rife with these rumours.

[AJH032]

72. thats good news

at least somethings being done.

[milkyway]

73. The key word in Cam Kerry's e-mail: IF

He does not say the facts don't provide a basis to change the outcome. He says, "Even if the facts don't provide a basis to change the outcome..." He is speaking about what the future outcome might be (if the facts do not provide a basis...).

If he meant to say that the facts already conclusively do not provide a basis to change the outcome, he would have said though instead of if. (Even though the facts don't provide a basis...).

Remember, he's a lawyer. He chooses his words carefully.

Also, Skinner quotes PeteNYC as saying, "At this point,there simply are not enough votes for us to win this thing, so please don't expect JK to un-concede.

I don't read this as saying they have given up. If there's a strong case of fraud to pursue, I think they will do so.

[yellowdogintexas]

78. of course we want a different outcome

but as my very apolitical daughter put it ...no matter what the results are, this is AMERICA and we just can't have our electoral processes corrupted ..period!

Every thing needs to be done to prove or disprove these suspicions or we will never be able to trust an election result again. (Not to mention all these emerging democracies that our nation wishes to influence for the good...how does something like this make us look to the rest of the world?)

My gratitude to Cam Kerry .




Paper ballot, anyone?

[gordianot]

74. Count all the votes.

Actually both candidates should be concerned about the votes. Now that we know only one is concerned speaks volumes.

[evolvenow]

80. First Post!!

Thank you everyone for all of your fantastic passion. My gut
is not to give up, keep doing anything postive and proactive,
that there is a timing, and every minute the proof expands and
becomes more detailed.

[EST]

93. Welcome to DU!

:toast: Sometimes it can be very frustrating!

[gatoatigrado]

83. evidence enough

There is always some sort of voter repression from the Republicans, but I doubt it would be enough to sway the vote. They should still get sued, just not under the name of John Kerry - as he said it is not supposed to be a long legal battle. Michael Moore had a place for people to report fraud.

[EST]

94. Welcome to DU!

The epicenter of the big bang! :crazy:

[Baja Margie]

84. Thanks Skinner

you da man.

[AgadorSparticus]

88. holy cow! this is the first i've heard of this. wow. this is ALL i need

to restore my faith in the kerry camp. thank you, thank you!!!

[Disgruntled American]

95. Kerry the sellout

Kerry is one of the richest millionaires in america.

It is in his best interest to concede the election, and say we must all begin the healing process.

If you want something done, your looking for the wrong guy.

Anyone wonder why Edward's said they waited 4 years, and they would wait longer to count the votes, yet a couple hours later, Kerry concedes.....

[AgadorSparticus]

101. oh go back to wherever. your first post and you come on spitting doubts

about kerry. kerry has done more for progressive values as a senator than bush has been sober. while i would have been disappointed had he not fought at all, this is not proving to be the case. i just needed a little morsel to go by and i got it. done deal. i have enough patience to hold on til the fat lady sings (no offense intended to any fat ladies).

[Bozos for Bush]

103. Ta Ta!

Adios!
Au revoir!
Abiento!
Sayonara!
Auf wiedersehn!

[Pachamama]

108. Kerry is no sellout...and if you are going to use that reasoning as your

1st post on the DU, I suggest that you go post elsewhere, because that isn't going to win you many friends here, particularly not with this Mama....

Kerry may be rich, but he has fought for this country since he was a young man...you think people change their stripes overnight when for 40 years of their life they have been fighting for their country and its citizens? I don't think so...

Many of us are baffled and confused by his sudden concession, but that doesn't make him a sellout...

And yet maybe, just maybe, its more important to sometimes go under the radar to fight your enemy....think about it....

[snot]

104. Where the people lead

This may be an instance in which it's really best for we, the people to spearhead the issue from the grassroots level.

No matter how great the evidence of fraud may be, we should expect in return not just attack and spin, but a huge battle. Those who demand investigation will not just be called a muckrakers, sore losers, paranoiacs, etc., but will be bombarded with everything the other side can muster. Their credibility will be undermined; their careers may be destroyed. If Kerry had demanded a recount or the like, there would have been a firestorm. Because if election fraud on the most ambitious scale ever imagined (at least in the US) has, in fact, been committed, those who engineered or condoned it have even more to lose than we do.

I don’t think Bush will be quickly ousted under almost any scenario; it’s going to take a bit of time to assemble and analyze the evidence and certainly more time to get through the legal battles.

We don't know exactly where the investigation will lead. E.g., most people might become convinced that serious fraud occurred, but the exact extent may remain uncertain, with doubt as to whether Bush would have lost without it. At minimum, our efforts can lead to reform; at maximum, they can lead to felony convictions and an overturn of the election. (I don't believe a concession premised on fraud would be considered binding.)

But if there is a really huge, continuing outcry by enough people, the investigation will be commenced, and at some point, Kerry or others can step into the lead, without looking like mere muckrakers.

For now, I think it's really important that we keep up our energy and determination, keep raising a hue and cry, and keep pushing the ball along.

[PeterPan]

106. one would think that republicans

would be very eager to discredit us all by vigorously pursuing an examination of all those op-scan ballots in florida
i mean imagine the political capital (oh god, did i actually write that?) they would gain from actually that every county with an overwhelming democratic majority in registration voted equally overwhelmingly for w! now that would seal it wouldn't it?

this should be an issue of republican pride

(i know you're wondering which planet i've been living on)

[Name removed]

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