Reversal on Kyoto seen as part of wider Tory shift towards centre

[Spazito]

OTTAWA (CP) - The Conservative party's sudden embrace of the Kyoto accord has astonished its supporters and critics, who see it as a flip-flop of historic proportions.

The move is seen as part of a wider shift that moves the party away from its the political right in an effort to court voters as an early federal election threatens. A party spokesman denies its position has changed on Kyoto.

Party spokesman Geoff Norquay confirmed Thursday the party now supports the objectives of the climate treaty, though not the Liberal plan for complying with those objectives.

snip

However, the party's former strong opposition to the accord is clear from numerous public comments in recent years. At an election rally in Barrie, Ont., last June 9, Harper said he would scrap the accord.

more

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=b9a92cc1-729e-4ae8-b151-08481cc5908b

ROFLMAO!! Gotta love this little phrase: "a flip-flop of historic proportions."

Harper is becoming the king of flip-flops to try and con Canadians that they have 'turned over a new leaf', yep, right, until after they would get elected. Canadians are not that dumb, Harper!

[glarius]

1. He's trying to convince us he's a reasonable, middle of the road guy...B.S

This man is soooo slick, manipulative and opportunistic....I hope Canadians will be reminded over and over again of how he went on FoxTV and badmouthed our country for not joining Bush's war on Iraq....I was furious when I heard that he had appologized for Canadians not joining!....I just feel SO SURE that if he was elected P.M. he would immediately set us on the road to privatization of our health care....

[Telly Savalas]

4. The Liberals can just dust off their old campaign ads...

to remind everyone how far to the right Harper & Co. really are. Top that off with Harper's inability to muzzle the nutters in his party and I think the Liberals will hang on to the government. The sponsorship scandal didn't kill the grits last June and it won't cause them to lose in an upcoming election. Canadians prefer a corrupt Liberal Party to a sociopath Conservative Party. I just wish the damn NDP would win enough seats to hold the balance of power in a minority government.

Edited to add: I think Harper might actually be bright enough to figure this out before he thinks about triggering an election in May and that there's a good chance we won't have one. (Especially when you consider poll numbers that indicate that most folks don't want an election now.)

[applegrove]

2. I wonder if it has to do with the fact Albertans are just realizing that

all that tar sand oil will have to be cooked (and environmental damage could be horrid) and the USA corporations will not likely be cooking it anywhere but Alberta.

The Albertans may be just realizing how nice their American buddies are. The cattle were blocked from sale in the USA because of cases of mad cow. One of the recent USA cattle-owners who took the case to court to keep the border closed stills buys cattle from Canada at cut rates. Then we find out the USA has had cases of Mad Cow disease that have been repressed.

Albertans may be waking up and saying: "if this is what they do to us on cow... what is going to happen with the oil". Plus they have just seen what peak oil prices will look like.. so why would they look around the world and go "these people do not play fair".

Funny - that the Fraser Institute was all over neocon plan yesterday. Perhaps they are trying to triangulate the Canadian population into thinking that Harper is a true progressive conservative and not at all like the old Manning and Harris.

The problem with Harper is that Canadians have nothing to gain from a less equitable economy. We are happy, healthy & safe. The big threat is from the unfair player that is our neighbor.

Oh - my they are desperate to win this next election.

The Liberals are going to have a landslide.

[glarius]

3. "The Liberals are going to have a landslide. "

God....I hope you are right!:)

[applegrove]

7. Oh - I just do not think Canadians are prissy. They are less in to

punishing person x (Martin) for person y's (Chretien) scandal, than they like their health care.

I think the last Martin campaign you saw people with no experience running for a while. At the end, the real experienced people stepped in and the Liberal Message took off.

[iverglas]

5. I was Decima-ed

on Friday night. A huge long phone survey, a complete dog's breakfast of a thing. Started with multiple questions about municipal issues for my city -- politics (of the 6 possible candidates for mayor, the surveyor called my guy, whose name I change here -- the only progressive in the bunch -- Jim "Hall" instead of "Mall"), tourism, the economy, etc. Included a whole lot of questions about RC/public schools, how many banks I had heard of, and an enormous and pointless segment about some new product the phone company might want to sign me up for so that I could receive an endless stream of emails tailored to my tastes (after I had told the phone company all about me), that I had already said I would not want under any circumstances.

But no, damn, they didn't ask me the questions I was expecting: Gomery, election ...

Anyhow, in the middle, there were 5 questions; would I strongly/oppose / strongly/support:

- making abortion illegal?
- allowing same-sex marriage?
- making prostitution legal?
- making cannabis possession legal?
- raising the age of consent for sex from 14 to 16?

It struck me that somebody was checking up on its position on those "wedge/values" issues. I didn't know why anybody but the Conservatives** would be bothering, although it's possible that the Liberals would have been doing a check-up.

I wondered whether the Conservatives were giving serious thought to polishing up their image a bit. If the "strongly oppose" option (or "strongly support", depending on the question) didn't seem too popular, there wouldn't be much profit to be gained by stressing crap like that in their message. They'd alienate everybody who didn't like their positions, or much care about the issues, but who might otherwise vote for them, and not likely pick up votes from people who wouldn't be voting for them anyway.

About time they figured it out, but I'd kinda hoped they wouldn't. If the Conservatives quit jumping up and down about their "morality" crap, there would probably be a lot more people who'd vote for them (for equally noxious or stupid reasons). Those things ain't big wedge issues in Canada (not that I actually believe they are in the US anyhow), other than for driving a wedge between voters and the party that tries to make them issues.


** p.s., on edit: Decima is of course the Conservative pollster. I should know; I used to get horizontal with one of its former bigwigs. From my limited experience with the two populations (a member of the Thatcher clan on the other side of the aisle; so sample size = 2) in that respect, I'd vote Liberal. ;)

[Spazito]

6. I agree, the faux Cons are testing the water

to see what else they can temporarily 'flip-flop' on to get votes and then go ahead with their REAL agenda. They have already done the faux flip-flop on Kyoto, it will be fascinating to see what else they will cook up, I need to stock up on popcorn, lol.

:popcorn:

[applegrove]

8. I agree. Harper has to mirror the Liberal party to get elected because

he is not representative of the country as a whole. I wonder if the Liberals will make inroads into Alberta after the whole cow scandal. I mean a group of cattle people got together and sued the feds for ruining their industry (by owning up to having a mad cow or two I guess), meanwhile, the American Cattle Industry keeps revealing itself to be a racket and predatory when it comes to their dealing with Canadian Cattle.

I mean the way it works in business school today is that you attack your consumers, your government & the regulations it imposes for safety reasons, your competitors and your stockholders.. you target them all for destruction. And Albertans have to accept that this type of business mentality is typical American and they have to decide if they really will get a better deal with the USA. Will they, Albertans, really be the beneficiaries of things if they allow the USA to control all (reduced federalism will allow corporations to dominate). Will the people of Alberta benefit from lowered taxes? Isn't the real way in which they get rich because the rich across Canada pay taxes to the Province/Country/Cities? Doesn't it help Albertans out a great deal that in boom times people come from all across the country to work there, and in bust times they leave and find work in Ontario or the Maritimes?

Lots of questions for us all this election.

[iverglas]

9. durn

I was hoping to get beat over the head for sleeping with the enemy. (Two blows, for having slept with the two varieties.)

But the Tory one, he was a pinkish Tory. He was doing stuff for Joe Clark while I was handing out leaflets for Flora. Eek! I admit it! I did stuff for a Tory! Of course, I got about as warm a reception from the Tory leadership convention delegates as I would have if I'd been handing out leaflets for Fidel Castro ...

[applegrove]

10. If you stuffed for a Tory - that would be three? We all makes mistakes

and no they will not win because they are just the branch office of the neocons. And those neocons are delusional with their own sociopathic abilities. Hitler did not mesmerize many nations. Only the germanic ones (which tribally is one nation). Oh sure everyone was mesmerized into cutting their losses and agreeing to non-aggression pacts that were bullshit (sticking your head in the sand and not wanting to accept how bad the neocons are). But it is becoming pretty obvious that they are nothing but hypocrites and when the news story finally becomes the horrid economy and the recession Bush has put off one way or another (by selling of USA assets for short term political gain) - well the news will just get worse. And Canadians watch that news. Intensely.

The only way I could see the USA getting out of the recession is if they free all the prisoners and put them in army boots and send them off to battle. That again would just be a temporary measure to free up domestic cash and would stop the bankruptcy at the state level so that will never happen. SS seems like it will not go through. Perhaps the WB will give the USA a trillion dollar load to pump up the market. But I doubt they can get away without recession for 4 more years.

But dismantling Medicare when our country can afford it (and it has been turned into efficiency machine) is not going to pan out. Neither is stopping the redistribution of wealth.

I think there is less the asshole meme in Canada. More of the empathy meme. Less tribalism. And many, many fewer religious. No - the neocon takeover of Canada will not be purdy. Not purdy at all.

And it is totally being generated from outside: Alberta (ha ha ha ha - I kid, because I love). But the evidence of what happens when you let the neocons think they own you is becoming more than obvious. I would hazard to guess that Albertans are beginning to realize that Ottawa is not the source of all evil.

Albertans like the Medicare too. Quebecers are the most european of all of us and will doubtfully back a Tory minority. Canadians actually don't want another election. I say it will be a landslide for Martin. Plus, he has had another year to nurture and encourage more start candidates. NDP too came on very strong in the last election.

I hope they wait until the inquiry is over. It will show the Tories posturing and grabbing at hot-button issues to try and maintain the present anger levels. And so it will show them for who they are. And one thing Canadians hate is a selfish, lying, manipulating bunch of assholes.

[CHIMO]

11. From Harper's Previous Employer

Not the type of language one would expect for building a consensus.

Canadian Taxpayers’ Federation director likens ads to AdScam spending

The Alberta director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation (CTF) is calling a series of government ads disgusting and demeaning to Albertans.

The ads, featured in both of Edmonton’s daily papers, were purchased by Alberta Energy to promote the oil and gas sector. The half-page "Life is Better in Alberta" ads talk about the 30 per cent of the province’s budget that comes from energy revenues, which "allows the Government of Alberta to invest more in Alberta from innovative technologies to better highways to glorious parks." One of the ads depicts a senior couple called Tom and Maureen. The text beside their photo says "Generations of Albertans continue to enjoy an enviable way of life because of our energy revenues."

"It’s in the same category as federal Liberal advertising. In the same way Chrétien spent money in Quebec, the Alberta government is spending our tax dollars to advertise in Alberta," he said. "But unlike Quebecers, many of whom are not patriotic Canadians, we Albertans are proud of our province and we don’t need to see our tax dollars wasted. It’s an insult to Albertans’ pride."

http://www.stalbertgazette.com/news/2005/0413/top1.htm

Sounds like it's coming from south of the border to me.

[applegrove]

13. Oh much of Alberta Culture comes from south of the border.

And tar sands have been such a future fantasy. What really happens to big sky Alberta when the tar sands start to cook.

I know Albertans are good eggs. I spent a lovely summer on top of a mountain in a tea house and didn't meet one asshole. Either asshole don't climb mountains.. or there or no assholes in Alberta (don't answer). I don't have the time to read more today but will read the total article in the next week. Am very curious.

I tripped over an article that said mps were being told that the USA was going to try to back out of NAFTA (of course feeling that they didn't have to follow rules). I will try and dig that one up.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

12. Bush ran as a "centrist" in 2000 and even said he supported

Kyoto before the election. Well, we know how that panned out. From what I've read about Harper and the CPC, they appear to be little more than 'Republican Party North'. If elected, Harper will go back on his support for Kyoto just like Bush did.

[V. Kid]

14. I hope you people realize that you don't understand Cdn politics very well

The Liberals aren't going to win this election. That doesn't mean that canadians aren't anti-conservative and suddenly fallen prey to the right-wing message of the Conservatives, it simply means they don't like the corruption of the Liberal Party. And those of you who are advocating a Liberal party landslide are being extremely naive. If your actually progressive I'd suggest you vote NDP. These strategic voting arguments that say vote Liberal or else are bizzare, stupid and wrong.

The Liberals will most likely beg Canadians to vote for them, nonethless I'd advocate that people THINK ABOUT THEIR RIDING and then consider whom they are going to vote for so for the love of god go to this website: http://www.elections.ca/home.asp?textonly=false and find out where your riding is! And then find out the results from the last election, if the results where an NDP vs Conservative race vote NDP NOT Liberal if your a progressive. If the results where an NDP vs Liberal race vote NDP if your a progressive. And if it was a three-way race vote NDP if your a progressive, since the Liberals are most likely down from last election.

A Conservative MINORITY goverment might not be a bad thing but the more seats they have the worse it gets and voting Liberal could help them win seats. There are various ridings where the race is between the NDP and Conservatives -- voting Liberal there would probably help elect a Conservative! Voting Liberal in an NDP vs Liberal race wouldn't help stop the Conservatives -- it would be simply voting Liberal. Frankly I hope you people aren't so naive as to fall for these Liberal party tricks.

For the Americans on this part of the board think of it this way. Which Democrat would you REALLY LIKE TO support more, Evan Bayh or Barbra Boxer? I'd say the NDP is like Barbra Boxer and Evan Bayh is like the Liberal Party. While the Liberals are slightly better than the Conservatives, as Evan Bayh is slightly better than most Republicans, the NDP in Canada, same as Barbra Boxer is vastly superior to the Republicans and DLC Democrats like Evan Bayh, is vastly better than both the Conservaitves and Liberals (IMNSHO).

[CHIMO]

15. Good Words

We need more rational thought instead of reaction.

[V. Kid]

16. Thank You :)

I've found a lot of people are woefully misinformed about the Canadian political situation. It's like 308 mini-elections -- and that fact is often completely disregarded.

BTW folks here are three tests one can take to find out where one stands on various issues. I'm not trying to sound dinkish by offering them up, but I really find the reactionary "support the Liberals" thing rather bizzare -- unless your a member of the Liberal Party! The first test everyone knows about. Also the first and second ones aren't specifically geared to Canada persay. The third one is though, and I'm not sure whether or not the people who made it will make one for a 2005 election, should it be called soon -- nonethless it's somewhat helpful. Even though I think the questions could be a tad dryer so as to not lead the people who take the tests in a certain direction (and btw I don't think the whole test leads anyone in a left or right direction -- I just think individual ones do such as "support buisness tax cuts to stop the brain drain" -- it should probably be "support buisness tax cuts"?).

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

http://www.moral-politics.com/xpolitics.aspx?menu=Home

http://www.politicswatch.com/VoteSelectorQuiz2004.html

[Spazito]

17. Voting strategically is definitely the way

I voted NDP in my riding to try and boot our MP who is a faux Conservative and will vote that way again if a snap election is called.

I disagree that a Conservative government might not be a bad thing. If the Conservatives become the government in a minority situation, they will be held in check by the opposition NDP and Liberals which will make them look moderate to Canadians. When that happens, the next election will give them a majority and that is unacceptable.

The fact is the NDP will not win even a minority government, yet. They do not have the credibility with the general Canadian population, they have never held power federally and their reputation from Ontario and B.C. leaves a great deal to be desired. What needs to happen, imo, is the NDP becoming the official opposition against a minority Liberal government which will give them credibility with Canadians and position them to be a credible choice in the next general election.

Harper's party doesn't remotely resemble a conservative party in the true sense of the word, it is a radical right wing party that will work very hard to bring in the same policies and practices that we are seeing being put into place by the bush admin. Nothing is worth that risk, imo, even booting the Liberals isn't worth that.

[achtung_circus]

18. Please I beg of you.

They are not Tories, they are not the Conservatives.

They are still Reform, hopefully repackaged with the sole aim of convincing enough Canadians to take a chance and let Reform implement their wingbat agenda.

[V. Kid]

19. I think that some perspective is needed though...

First off none of the Conservative regimes in this country including the Gordon Campbell Liberals, Ralph Klein Progressive Conservatives, or Jean Charest Liberals (which are strangely enough another one of those very right-wing capital-L liberal regimes) or even Mike Harris's dead Progressive Conservative regime are NOT as right-wing as the Bushes or Republicans in general. So why all the sudden would the Harper Conservatives be? Don't get me wrong I don't like any of those regimes -- they all suck A LOT. But the country is still hear isn't it? Why should I vote for a mushy centrist goverment when a progressive option exists? If the progressive option didn't exist then I'd be in a pickle but it does so......

Besides if Harper joins in Iraq he'll be committing political suicide, Canadians don't want this sort of thing. And a Harper government, majority or minority, will be a one term thing if he moves in a radical reactionary direction. Besides issues like SSM are only being opposed so he can throw a bone to the social conservatives in his base. There's nothing, besides using the notwithstanding clause, he can do to stop it. The courts have already ruled and it will soon be legal everywhere in Canada. If he uses the notwithstanding clause he'll look idiotic because it's only been used to protect Quebec's draconian language laws. And unlike Quebec the Canadian public won't forgive them for that on an issue such as SSM. The notwithstanding clause is an illegitimate tool and he will be in a loose loose situation -- he uses it and looks stupid or doesn't use it and the so-cons in his base will be angry. Either way he will be weakened by it.

Also as we know Canada is a socially liberal country, the Harper Cons can't afford to be too right-wing. Oh they'll definitely move in a right-wing direction, but the only reason that this will be bad for Canada is because the Liberals, if they aren't overtaken by the NDP, once they defeat Harper, will simply govern from the position that the Harper Conservatives left the country in! Take a look at what this Liberal government did when it took over from Brian Mulroney's crew. The Liberals said they where going to get rid of the GST. Did they? The Liberals said they weren't going to sign on to NAFTA. Did they? These HUGE broken promises are just a few things the Liberals didn't do anything about. They could've since they won a majority in 93, in 97 and 2001. So why didn't they?

Why if your a progressive should you vote for them? Because they won't make things worse? Ahh that's where you're wrong my friend. Take a look at Un-employment insurance, now employment insurance, the reforms to that programme have been reformed. And in the process the average Canadian has less protection. That is a Liberal invention. Take a look at the 95 and 96' budgets, implemented by our current Prime Minister. Those budgets cut transfer payments, to pay for social programmes such as Health-Care, by massive amounts increasing the amount of privatization in this country. This government doesn't deserve to be propped up. So if the Harper Conservatives are simply more open with their desire to screw the country around than the Martin Liberals wowie I'm shaking in my boots. Canadians are tough, and they aren't that right-wing, therefore a Harper Conservative government will be a short thing. Don't get me wrong it will suck but to claim the Liberals, who've allegedly stolen money and weakened Canadian Unity in the process, are morally able to govern is folly. And progressives of all sorts really shouldn't hitch their star to that wagon.

I recognize you said you voted NDP but consider this. Unlike the United States the NDP, the third and better option, can influence policy discussion or have a realistic albiet outside shot at forming goverment (take a look at Ontario in 1990 -- the NDP was at 20% in the polls at the begging of that campaign and unlike that situation Canada's economy and fiscal situation is good now compared to the poor economy in Ontario at that time). As we know in the United States the two parties are completely monopolistic. And while there's variance within each party, the progressive Democrats are completely sidelined. In Canada however the NDP does form governments (for instance they're in Saskatchewan and Manitoba right now). The polls consistently are showing the NDP to be around 20% federally (one poll had them at 15% and one at 24, but most are around 18 to 21). So they can actually elect MP's to influence the policy discussion of the country. Whereas Greens in the United States can do no such thing since they can rarely break above 1% and only elect a few people to councils in Oregon or California or something. Bernie Sanders (an independent) in a 538 (?) member house of reps is a lot more sidelined then 19 New Democrats (with a realistic possibility of many more) in a 308 member house of commons. If the NDP can over take the Liberals should a Conservative goverment come to pass, we can at least look forward to progressive advancement once they inevetibly beat the Conservatives should they finally break out and win a majority. Because a majority Liberal goverment isn’t too progressive, and that’s not very impressive. I'll admit Chretien did some good things (other than sponsership) once he got rid of Martin, but that seemed to be a vain attempt to find a legacy. I'll give him credit for the actions, nonethless the legacy thing was still there. And I'll give Martin credit for not going through with BMD, nonethless I think he would've signed on had he won a majority and defeated the Bloc in Quebec (since he was on record back in 2003 of being infavour of BMD).

I'll admit I'd prefer the dithering Liberals, with a little bit of right-wing governance, to the far more right-wing government that the Conservatives would lead (although I'd still maintain it wouldn't be as right-wing as the Bushes considering the political realities of Canada) nonetheless I'm definitely not voting Liberal and while the Conservatives in my riding have no shot at winning, I'd advocate people not vote Liberal in many other cases as well. Frankly the Liberals are far too compromised for me to vote for them. And while there are some good ones, people like Pat O'Brien (and the recently floor crossing David Kilgour), don't fill me with a lot of confidence.