Will y'all hep me DU a poll, plaze?

[PDittie]

People in GD stayed away in droves...

http://www.chron.com


Should local police help enforce immigration law?


Yes! And we need the Minutemen, too!
36%
Yes. U.S. needs everyone to secure our borders.
29%
Not sure. Isn't that why I pay federal taxes?
8%
No. Crime worries me, not immigration.
13%
No! And we need a guest worker program, too!
14%

Total Votes: 2026

[NoPasaran]

1. Done!

[MrTriumph]

2. How would we "DU" the poll? Opinions on the solution vary.

Hi, PD- I am not trying to be argumentative, but if you think posters to DU have a common solution to illegal immigration I would beg to differ. I have seen threads with plenty of rancor over the issue.


BTW, results of a Scripps Howard Texas poll were released published over the weekend. Anyway, 49% oppose the Minutemen, 47% approve.

Guest worker plan: 50% approve, 42% oppose.

83% believe businesses should identify and report illegals.

79% think more should be done to stop illegal immigration.


Also a study was released last week that had an interesting bit of info to add to the debate. A majority of Mexicans coming illegally to the US to work were employed in Mexico and came to the US for higher wages.

[PDittie]

3. I just think you should

vote your conscience, Mr. T. :thumbsup:

Though I would doubt that DUers would vote for the 'Minutemen' option.

[MrTriumph]

6. Disagree with your assessment of DUers

"Though I would doubt that DUers would vote for the 'Minutemen' option."

I don't think DUers would vote in lock step as you suggest. May of us are angered by the lack of effort by the federal gov't to secure the border. And although I do not agree with those Minutemen who may have racial motivations, as a group the Minutemen serve a purpose of embarrassing the federal gov't into action.

BTW, the jobs being taken by illegals are jobs that would have gone to American workers of every race so this is not a racial issue. It is a jobs & security issue.

[WestHoustonDem]

4. Did that yesterday! n/t

[sonias]

5. Boy they really skewed wording in that poll didn't they

The Minutemen issue does not need to be glued to local police. The Border patrol and the local police would not want untrained citizen vigilante forces working with them. It's recipe for disaster.

This issue is the republican wedge issue, and we need to really pick our words carefully. All of us can support better immigration enforcement, but the laws can not be enforcement for the illegal immigrants only. That doesn't work, as long as the demand for their labor is essential to the US economy.

If you want to delve into this deeper, from a conservative viewpoint, here's a study done by the Cato Institute. Hardly a left leaning think tank. The executive summary basically says our border policy is a failure

http://www.freetrade.org/issues/immigration.html
"For the past two decades, the U.S. government has pursued a contradictory policy on North American integration. While the U.S. government has pursued more commercial integration through the North American Free Trade Agreement, it has sought to unilaterally curb the flow of labor across the U.S.-Mexican border. That policy has not only failed to reduce illegal immigration; it has actually made the problem worse.

Increased border enforcement has only succeeded in pushing immigration flows into more remote regions. That has resulted in a tripling of the death rate at the border and, at the same time, a dramatic fall in the rate of apprehension. As a result, the cost to U.S. taxpayers of making one arrest along the border increased from $300 in 1992 to $1,700 in 2002, an increase of 467 percent in just a decade.

Then, there was Steve Young's idea. He was the Democratic Candidate for US Congress in CA-48 in Orange county. He didn't win, he came in 2nd place, but that was still higher than the wing nut that started the Minutemen who was also in the race.

Here was his proposal, which I thought was very interesting. The hardest part, besides it actually becoming law, would be for the immigrants to trust the US government. It's lot like gun registration. Once they have your location, it is so much easier to round them up.

Steve Young:
"Catcher in the Rye" type immigration policies are destined to failure. The INS is under-funded and vigilante groups on the borders threaten the rule of law in our country. We are learning by sad experience that America cannot solve the immigration crisis at the border because border solutions merely address symptoms.

I have a real solution to the "immigration problem" that is a business approach. It does not demonize immigrants, is self-funding, and benefits America.

Immigrants pay on average $3000 each to smugglers. Why not have the immigrants pay America the $3000 and create a system under which we can monitor who is coming into the country and what they are doing? I propose that the government establish ICE centers at the borders. Those wishing to enter the country will pay the $3000 to ICE (US Immigration, Customs and Enforcement Agency). ICE will take the immigrant’s photograph, fingerprints, and administer tuberculosis and other health tests. The immigrants must tell us where they are going to live and where they plan on working. With that information, and the payment, the immigrant can enter the country. Every six months the immigrant must renew the application with updated information and the payment of an additional $500.00. Some sources estimate 30 million undocumented aliens are in the US. At $3000 each, we have a potential revenue source of $90 billion. I estimate that ICE can reduce the border patrol by 2/3 and redirect its efforts to drug interdiction and security to prevent terrorist entry to the US. All of this has a direct financial benefit to the US government in a time of rising budget deficits.

Employers who cheat their competitors by hiring undocumented workers fuel the immigration problem. I propose a "green card bounty" program to halt employer cheating. Any undocumented worker who gives ICE a paycheck showing the worker worked within the last month will receive a "green card bounty." ICE will not have to spend precious resources investigating cheating employers. The immigrants will bring the evidence to ICE to get an expedited green card. Armed with this proof, and front page publicity for prosecutions of cheating business owners, jobs for undocumented workers outside my registration system will dry up immediately. This will level the playing field for honest employers.

It is time for America to adopt my direct solution. It benefits America, eliminates the cheaters, generates $90 billion for the treasury, and allows ICE to focus on security rather than playing hide and seek in the southern deserts. Is it time for a change, or more of the same?

Sonia

[Justitia]

7. Done! I want the cops fighting CRIME in Houston, not chasing landscapers.

I wonder if some objecting to the poll understand what our mayors have said about the consequences of requiring them to act as immigration officers.

I'm in Houston, so I totally get it.

[babylonsister]

8. Done! Local cops are not border agents! nt

[MagickMuffin]

9. Boy, Aren't They Clever

to include five questions.
I wonder who came up with them?

It's interesting that they chose to start the questions with Yes! And we need the Minutemen, too!...

Minutemen are not part of the police dept, so why include them in this questionnaire?

If they wanted to conduct a poll about Minutemen, I think they should have waited and had a separate poll for that issue, instead of combining the two into one.

OT:There were some good articles: Redistricting going to the Supreme Court, and one on DeLay.

[Lisa0825]

10. There was an interesting segment on illegal immigration

this weekend... I think it was on 60 minutes. Turns out that the people in the INS who pushed for more money and more security several years ago and got it, now are not happy with the changes and feel that the attempts to crub illegal immigration have actually made it worse, and caused a lot of deaths as well. Because security is up in the border towns and traffic crossings, now immigrants cross through the desert instead, and many end up dead. And since it has become so much harder to cross back and forth, people who do come are bringing their families and staying instead of sending back money to them. The result is no net loss in the number of illegal immigrants.

In addition, when they gave a major meat-packing plant an ultimatum about employing illegal workers, the result was that the state tossed them out. The illegal workers made up such a large part of the industry that it would have caused the business to collapse and would have killed the entire community in the process. The INS rep said what he learned from that is how integral these workers are to the US economy.

What is the answer? It's way more complicated than "tighten the borders" or "build a wall." Do we start enforcing the laws against the businesses that hire them? Many of them Repblican-owned, BTW. Think of it this way... how big is the fight usually when a raise in the minimum wage is proposed? This would be even bigger, because not only are these workers paid less than legal workers would accept, but do you think an employer paying someone illegally is likely to pay benefits as well? How much money would it cost every corporation to ensure all it's employees are legal? Where would the money come for that? Prices, profits, and jobs to start.

[intheflow]

11. Voting from Denver.

Bwaahaahaaa! :evilgrin:

[Czolgosz]

12. done (by the way, I'd have agreed with you about DU eschewing minuteman

nonsense a week ago, but in light of the atmosphere there lately I'm not sure how they'd vote; when someone posted the email addresses for clemency messages for Stan Williams I expected some to be interested and most to ignore the thread but I was really surprised by the number of people who sent "fry him" messages to the clemency email address and then boasted about doing that in the very thread where the OP had pleaded for clemency requests).

[sonias]

15. Boy that's sick

Glad I didn't see that thread. Maybe we have huge infiltration in our DU membership of smarter than average freepers, that have lasted not being tombstoned.

Sonia

[crispini]

13. Done!

Yes! And we need the Minutemen, too!:
31%
Yes. U.S. needs everyone to secure our borders.:
27%
Not sure. Isn't that why I pay federal taxes?:
7%
No. Crime worries me, not immigration.:
14%
No! And we need a guest worker program, too!:
21%
Total Votes: 6675

I think it attests to the power of DU (or something) that the last three (what I would consider to be the sensible options) are way up. This is completely a distorted and stupid poll -- if you are pro the original question, there are two choices, if anti, there are three -- that's GOING to distort the results. And, gorsh, isn't "The US needs everyone to secure our borders" a wholesome, innocuous sounding choice? But it doesn't imply anything LIKE what the real world results would be.

[sonias]

14. Read the related story associated with the poll

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3515729.html
Texans back police help on immigration law
Poll finds most think enforcement is not just a state and federal issue
(snip)
But immigration advocates suggest the question may have been misleading because those polled were asked whether they think local and state police should "help" federal officials enforce immigration law.

"I might answer yes to that question," said City Councilman Gordon Quan, who opposes Ellis on the issue. Though HPD policy forbids street officers from asking about immigration status, officers are permitted to assist federal immigration officials if they have prior approval, Quan noted.(/snip)



(snip)
Whites and Republicans were far more likely to support the Minutemen. Among whites, 51 percent supported having civilians patrol the border. Only 25 percent of Hispanics and 37 percent of blacks said they approve of civilian patrols.
(/snip)

This poll was obviously commissioned by the republican party that wants to make immigration a "homeland security" issue. You know, the typical scare the crap out of voters, to help them get their poll numbers up and get their base foaming at the mouth. You can just about get any result on a poll if you ask the questions a particular way.

Sonia