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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:37 PM
Original message
Saw my first "Yes on 8" ad
x(

:cry:
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RexDart Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Where? When?
I don't think I've even seen a yes on 8 bumper sticker yet. Of course, that might just be a function of the central coast.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They are running one fairly regularly (at least once a morning)
on KABC during GMA.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Doctor Pedantic Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Okay, Let Me Try to Address This Calmly.....
First, what the California Court did was interpret the California Constitution. The Court found, quite correctly, that under the Constitution, there is no basis for withholding the right to marry from people simply because they are gay. I have actually read the entire opinion; I would hope that anyone who thinks it was "wrong" would do the same. The Court did not "make" law -- it interpreted the law, which is what judges do.

Second, the "people" have enacted any number of laws that were unconstitutional. The purpose of a Constitution, and of the judicial system, is, among other things, to protect against the tyranny of the majority. In Brown v. Board of Education, the United States Supreme Court rejected the will of the people to find in favor of integration. In Loving v. Virginia, the USSC rejected to the will of the people to find banning interractial marriage unconstitutional (which California had done under its Constitution two decades earlier). Roe v. Wade was an obvious case of the Court finding a Constitutional right regardless of how the voters of any state felt about the issue of choice. The California Supreme Court was simply doing its job - not "making" law.

Third, there will be no unintended consequences. Marriage has been "radically redefined" numerous times over the centuries. It has involved business transctions, underage girls married to older men, and polygamy. It has been limited to people of the same nationality and religion, and again, until 1967, there were still states that limited marriage to people of the same race. This is not about the "slippery slope." It is about a specific Constitutional right for a specific group of citizens and taxpayers. And of course there are counters to the false "slippery slope" arguments. If you want to amend the Constitution to limit it to "traditional" marriage, one of the most "traditional" forms of marriage, going back to earliest Biblical times, is polygamy! And what would be the unintended consequences of allowing people to amend the Constitution based on their personal religious beliefs. If marriage now, why not church affiliation later? Or church attendance? Tithing? Where are the limits to using the Constitution to impose personal moral and religious beliefs on others?

Fourth, there is nothing the gay community can do to churches that compares to what churches have done to the LGBT community. I have heard of no reports of persecution of churches anywhere in the world that permits gay marriage (including Massachusetts) and can't imagine it happening here. A church can refuse to perform a wedding ceremony, without losing its tax-exempt status or facing persecution. Churches have refused to perform all sorts of wedding ceremonies over the year, without any problems. I'm not Mormon, so even if I were straight, I couldn't get married in a Mormon temple. And the Catholic church has strict rules on who can get married in the church. That's not a problem. If Proposition 8 is defeated, every church will have the right to decide whether or not to perform a same-sex wedding. But if it passes, then churches will lose that right, and can only perform, at best, services that are spiritual and symbolic, but that don't result in a legally-recognized marriage. So a vote for Proposition 8 is actually a vote AGAINST religious freedom for those churches, without providing any sort of protection for churches that disagree.


Finally, passing Proposition 8 is not going to promote the stability of marriage, or result in more kids being raised by opposite-sex parents. There will still be gay couples, like me, who raise children. There will still be straight families raising children. Gay families are not going to go away if Proposition 8 passes -- but their children will be told that they are not in a "real" family, and their Constitutional rights will be stripped away. Don't the kids of gay parents deserve stability and acceptance? The California Supreme Court put it beautifully in its opinion: "a stable two-parent family relationship, supported by the state’s official recognition and protection, is equally as important for the numerous children in California who are being raised by same-sex couples as for those children being raised by opposite-sex couples (whether they are biological parents or adoptive parents)."

I urge you to reconsider. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.

Thanks.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Very, very, very well-expressed, Doctor.
Thanks for your post.

I tell people that I'm a retired social worker, and we have been placing children with gay couples since the 90's, and no social worker has been allowed to discriminate for over a decade.

Wake up, California! Don't believe the lies! The initiative does not affect educational policy nor does it affect whether or not GLBT couples can adopt kids.

What the decision did was correct recognize that GLBT individuals deserve equal protection of the law, as do all California citizens and residents.
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. When the Constitution is manipulated to 'prohibit' rights
instead of 'protecting' rights, oooh doggy then you're getting into extremely dangerous territory for EVERYONE including yourself. The Constitution is designed to Protect not Deny. Think about that.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. Flip side, I've seen no 'yes on 8' yard signs....
But I did spy with my little eyes, two 'NO on Eight' yard sign. One was posted in the yard of a very prominent senior citizen who used to own and operate the large meat packing plant that employed many proud union workers in our very red city. I believe that little sign negates quite a few hate ads on TV.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. read this and be pissed, i was enraged when i read this morning.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Fuckers. Thanks for posting
:loveya:
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. GRRRRR
x(

Thanks for posting this.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. WHAT?
Okay, passing this along to my (very liberal) student group. If other colleges are allowing student groups to take a stand on this, we sure fucking will.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thanks! I was going to post the article but i figured it would get locked.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Working on something right now.
I'll update you if it comes together.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. "Daniel Jensen, a Mormon student, spoke for many
...who backed the resolution when he remarked, 'I have the right to stand up for what I believe in. Nobody has the right to call me a bigot and call me a hater.'"

um, if you ARE a bigot and a hater, then i can call you that.

you're a bigot and a hater.

and Mormons don't get to tell me what my rights are.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. they are running it regularly around here (Freeperside county)
Edited on Wed Oct-01-08 02:04 PM by mitchtv
it's full of lies and distortions sponsored by K of C. focus on family.I feel like picketing my local Catholic church, with pictures of victims of the war they support(and claim they don't)acceptance of Gay marriage is "mandatory" "Churches could lose their tax exempt statuss" another lie,
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, that "tax exempt status" thing...
:nuke:
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litlady Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. Inequality is great! Vote yes on 8!
:mad:
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
13.  "Nobody has the right to call me a bigot and call me a hater."
let me call bullshit on this right now!

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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. a few pro-8 radio ads
on a San Francisco center-to-left station (KGO), but otherwise I've only seen No on 8 signs around here (Palo Alto)
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deoxyribonuclease Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. Lots of Yes on 8 signs in suburban San Diego
I was visiting a friend who lives in the suburbs and noticed at least 5 "Yes on 8" yard signs (and no "No on 8" signs). What is it about suburbia that robs people of empathy and ability to think? Geez...

Thankfully my neighborhood is much, much more progressive.
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