Was California's teacher tenure ballot measure all that bad?

[Eric J in MN]

Was it just that public school teachers get tenure after 5 years instead of after 2 years?

[Coastie for Truth]

1. I am from the "Machine Politics" Northeast

And back when there were many more applicants for teaching jobs then there were jobs - the absence of "Teachers' Tenure Laws" provided an opportunity for School Board members and "Central Office Bureaucrats" to "mace the payrollers" (i.e., shake down teachers and applicants for bribes).

Big secret in my home town - everybody knew about it -- nobody talked about it.

But- after the Civil Rights Act of 1968 - when women started going to Med School and Law School and Graduate Business School - there was a teacher "shortage."

The real issue is "Due Process" in terminations.

[pinto]

2. The worst aspect of 74 was removing the paper trail required for dismissal

Two unsatisfactory evaluations were sufficient for dismissal without any need for further initial documentation indentifying specific instances of unsatisfactory performance (beyond the evaluations themselves).

ie - the evaluations become the documentation.

[Baconfoot]

4. Precisely! I'm glad somebody agrees with me on this.

You don't ensure that the best teachers are not being fired by letting anyone be fired for any reason as long as someone in charge fills out two pieces of paper in a certain way.

We want to ATTRACT and KEEP the best teachers.
Prop 74 would have repulsed the best potential teachers and made it infinitely easy to fire the best teachers for the wrong reason.

The hearing process keeps good teachers from being fired for stupid reasons.

That said, I think the burden of evidence required at the hearing is too high as is the demand on the principal's time for obtaining that evidence. But just because THAT'S where the problem is doesn't mean the solution is to bipass it ALTOGETHER! What if I had a defective heart and I thought Gee well how about I just cut it out and chuck it in the trash. Problem solved? No.

[hunter]

3. It was just stupid.

In many places a good number of new teachers quit simply because the pay is inadequate and the job sucks. I mean it really, really sucks. You love the kids and you do the best you can with the resources you've got, but the job still sucks. There are abusive parents, abusive administrators, and quite enough insanity sloshing about to ruin almost every day.

So what do you want to do Arnold, beat new teachers with a stick too? Maybe you can kick them in the head whenever they fall down.

Fuck you Arnold. You are an asshole.

That tiny little carrot of tenure is what keeps a lot of new teachers going. Take that away, and even more new teachers will walk away.

As it stands now, most teachers return to work each day out of the goodness of their own hearts. They are certainly not in it for the money or the prestige.

[yurbud]

5. pragmatically, it's hard enough to get smart people to teach K12

low pay, shitty working conditions, overcrowded classes, micro-managed curriculum, and pinhead administrators and dropout parents looking over your shoulder.

The weekend before the election, students walked out of South Gate High School in Los Angeles to protest overcrowded classes and a shortage of teachers. Will making the job LESS attractive fix that?

[99Pancakes]

6. A lot of good responses here

As a teacher in conservative Kern County, my beef was allowing the School Board final say in firing someone. You get a few conservative Nut cases voted onto the board, and if you're a liberal activist, your goose is cooked after 2 simple evals. Also, any lesbian or gay would have been singled out, both on campus and in front of the board. I live here--I know how cruel these "christian conservatives" can be. I'm breathing a huge sigh a relief that big liberal counties like LA and SF helped the rest of the "blue" areas defeat this shameful prop. (which really was Ahhnuld's way of taking power away from Teachers, and hence, the Democratic party. That's what it REALLY was all about, and so I thank all of you for seeing through that)

[joefree1]

7. The bigger question

Why did Aunald spend $60 million of our money to have this stupid f**king election?

[Cleita]

8. If you can't figure out that someone isn't going to work out

in two years, then there is a problem with those who do the figuring out of whose going to work out. When I worked for the State of California, my probation was six months, plenty of time to figure out that I wasn't a flake. This prop was a stab at the unions. It had nothing to do with tenure.

[livetohike]

10. Exactly the problem

There are plenty of administrators who should be booted out. Especially those who can't figure out in the first year that a teacher isn't making it.

I am a former elementary teacher. I have taught in some incredible situations - nothing that my B.S. degree prepared me for. If my principals and admin. supervisors had to teach in my place, they would have failed.

Arnold is an idiot. He knows nothing about the reality of teaching, nor does he care.

[JWS]

9. My Poli Sci professor says "it's not necessary"

IMHO, we're already struglling with teachers as it is. Abuse of tenure isn't because it only takes two years to get it, but rather because of failures within the particular institution where it's taking place. Something needs to be done to fix it, but that just won't fix it, or help our problem with finding more teachers.