Is Dean's wife a liability?

[Toucano]

This has probably been discussed before, so ignore the thread if you're tired of it.

I know it's been said that she may not live in the White House and doesn't have and interest in being first lady. While I have no problem with this personally, I wonder if it looks bad for Dean in the general election? People can be awfully strange about such things.

What's the deal with her?

[frustrated_lefty]

1. Is Dean's pet a liability?

Rumor has it Dean's kid has a hamster, which is a notoriously social creature. Social, you know, is shorthand for socialism! Dean's kid's pet is running our country, and this pet can't win!

[incapsulated]

5. It's not a completely off the wall question

Remember Hillary.

I know that Clark's wife, and her lack of enthusiasm for his campaign, worries me a bit.

Did she really suggest she wouldn't live in the WH?

[frustrated_lefty]

8. I understand.

His wife is also a medical professional, she has, in her own way, devoted her life to public service.

Going after a man's wife this early in the campaign just seems ugly to me. Going after a man's wife at all seems ugly to me.

I won't comment on Clark's wife, I don't think this should even be an issue.

[incapsulated]

18. I don't know if we're "going after" her

Well, I'm not.

I'm really just curious, since I've had to think about Clark's wife, too, and what it could mean.

I think that her being a doctor is a big plus, actually.

I never thought about any of this until they went after Hillary. Now, unfortuantely, we have to, since they actually got that bullshit to work for them.

[frustrated_lefty]

32. You have a point.

I don't like it, but your point is valid.

[Toucano]

51. NO NO NO NO NO!

I am not "going after" anybody!

I just wonder if her lack of participation may be seen as a liability in the general election! If it translates into a lack of support.

Don't be so defensive. I have nothing against Dean's wife. I just know very little about her.

[frustrated_lefty]

64. I'm not being defensive.

It shouldn't be an issue, period. In my view, a president's spouse should only receive as much attention as they invite upon themselves.

Nancy Reagan wanted attention, with "Just Say No." She got it.

When a candidate's wife wants privacy, I think she should have it. She shouldn't be considered an asset or a liability until and unless she enters the public sphere.

[Toucano]

73. You were being defensive

If you interpret the mere question as an attack. But that doesn't matter. I didn't mean to upset you.

Do you really think privacy is possible when you live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? In the 21st century?

She would have secret service people in the hospital with her all the time. What kind of a practice could that be?

[frustrated_lefty]

137. It should not be an issue.

Americans may choose to make it one, that doesn't mean it should be.

[liberalpragmatist]

164. She could continue her practice... in the WH

I consider it entirely plausible that Dr. Steinberg could be the chief WH physician -- it would keep her in a protective environment where the Secret Service wouldn't be obtrusive, etc.

As an aside, I'm not sure if there are separete WH physicians for the WH and for other staff members, i.e. workers in the West Wing. Does anybody know the answer to this? Or is their no medical staff for ordinary workers and staff members?

[Toucano]

166. I don't know the answers

but that idea might work.

Would her patients have to be screened and background checked before coming to the white house?

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. i hadn't heard that they would live seperately

where did this info come from?

[Gloria]

146. Clark's wife Gert has been at some of the NH events--she was shown

at one of the breakfasts on CSPAN a couple of weeks ago...


As for Judy--it's no problem for me, but Laura Bush is now the current standard and she's absolutely invisible. Judy is a strong, independent career woman and you can bet the family values crowd will be asking how she let her son break into a country club...but, of course, she wasn't at home watching his every move!!

Of course, the fact that Laura never seemed to try to curtail her own daughters' hijinks will never be brought up by these hypocrites....

[Hoppin_Mad]

17. Is Dean's belt a liability ?

It has metal grommets in it. I know he wears it to honor his dead brother but could it cost Dean the valuable fashionista vote ?

:-)

[Duder]

2. No

Dr. Dean, medicine woman

Judith Steinberg Dean is a cipher onto which every woman -- whether high-powered careerist or stay-at-home mom -- can project herself. And like the rest of her husband's campaign, she's almost too good to be true.

'Dec. 8, 2003 | It's December 2003. Do you know who the wife of your 2004 Democratic presidential front-runner is?

Dr. Judith Steinberg Dean, M.D., the Vermont internist married to the state's former governor and presidential candidate Howard Dean, has been MIA on her husband's campaign trail, and is bold in her assertion that she will remain almost as absent from his presidency and instead keep up her full-time medical practice.

The quicksilver Dean campaign has already turned water into wine by making his just-folks country doctor act into the hip campaign with momentum. That fizzy, effortless Howard Dean magic may be at work on his wife as well, transforming the abstemious Judith Steinberg -- aka Judy Dean -- into the perfect foil for a new presidential millennium. An unlikely mating of rural career girl, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman and Donna Reed, Dr. Steinberg could be the anti-Hillary, anti-Laura first lady that Americans have been waiting for: a cipher onto which every woman -- whether she has a high-powered career or is a stay-at-home mom -- can project herself. A woman who, like the rest of her husband's campaign, is almost too good to be true.'

http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/12/08/judy_dean/index_np.html

[pasadenaboy]

3. I think people that see her as a liability

(Religious conservatives) don't vote democratic anyway, so I don't think it matters.

She will live in the white house and will be first lady, but she would like to continue practicing medicine if possible. She doesn't want to campaign, however. I bet if he gets the nomination, she will be more involved in the general election.

After seeing what the Repubs did to hillarly, I can't blame her for wanting to keep a low profile.

[maxanne]

4. she's a doctor

She's got work to do. It is waaaaaay past time for us to move beyond the realm of expectation that the wife is going to stand around looking adoringly at the president - a la Nancy Reagan.

I really like the fact that he doesn't expect it from her - that he respects her career, and her choices. I heard an older woman say something similar to him the other night at the town hall meeting in N. Conway, NH.

Dean truly believes in equality for women. It's not lip service, it's the real deal with him. The first time I met him, I heard him say, "In countries where women have full equality, there is no terrorism."

[patricia92243]

61. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world

[killbotfactory]

6. Only people who have a problem with working women...

I think it reflects well on Dean that he respects her enough to let her do her own thing.

[Toucano]

35. I don't think it's about her being a working woman.

And I think you're right that their mutual respect of the other's careers being a positive thing.

I also know that doctors don't work 7 days a week. Isn't Wednesday afternoon reserved for golf? :)

I think it would be helpful if she showed up on the campaign trail once in awhile.

Yes, the media crucified Hillary and there are criticisms of Laura that aren't all together fair. But doesn't that come with the territory? Does it appear they've got something to hide?

It's true that we don't campaign for the fundie vote because it's stupid, but I don't think it's just fundies that are affected, but also those who base their decision of more superficial factors. I wonder if she plans to show up in the general election campaign, shouldn't she be "vetted" by the primary voters first?

Of course, I don't think a candidate's wife should be a factor. But when the media makes it one (as they will likely do) I'd like to know more about her.

[Name removed]

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[Bucky]

9. That would be a tactical error on the GOP's part. Attacking career women?

This is a growing base of voters. I doubt they'll make an issue of this. She doesn't punch buttons the way Hillary did.

[slinkerwink]

10. that's just unfair---I don't think Clark's wife is pretty either

she has a very odd-looking eyebrow ridge....

[Name removed]

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[dsc]

79. crap is crap

even when the other crap came first.

[maddezmom]

174. they are both attractive women

didn't know they were supposed to be fashion models. :(

[onebigbadwulf]

13. Liability to what?

Idiots who want a motherly first lady who will read to first graders once a year and wave like a subordinate submissive wife in the meantime?

[not systems]

Dang we will lose the anti-"feminazi" vote...

how will the Democratic party survive?

I suppose the "other" canidate you support will deliver
the anti-"feminazi" vote thus saving the Democratic party?

[MIMStigator]

28. like it or not this crap matters to people

no, I don't think Clark will have to worry about the people it matters to because he's not seen as a cultural divider. Fair or not Dean is.

[Scott Lee]

38. Or is it that this matters to crappy people?

I personally don't care about going for the lunkheaded misogynist vote, do you?

[MIMStigator]

43. agree but

yes do care about lunkhead vote if it means winning or losing.

I hate *.

[Scott Lee]

93. The tone of your posts show you are more antiDean than antiBush.

Now if that's not your intention, I would go over them and see what you think. How about we keep our eyes on the prize?

[IndianaGreen]

39. It matters to Rush and his radio audience

It might matter to the idiots that watch Pat Robertson's 700 Club.

It should not matter to people that believe that men and women are equal, or should be equal!

[Toucano]

63. It might be a factor to a lot of people

who don't listen to Rush or Pat Robertson.

It isn't about equality. It's about visibility.

I'm first in line to praise the value of her career.

[artr2]

160. And why do I give

a fuck about what people who are not going to vote for ANY democrat think? This is just more bullshit that doesn'tr even matter

[not systems]

41. Thanks for not adding to that divide.

Not!

Fair or not Clark's appeal to rightwingers will never
make me like him more than Dean.

You may not have got the memo but most rightwingers and
"feminazi" haters are voting for Bush next fall.

We are going to win in opposition to, not collusion with,
the cultural right.

Dean will be the next president of the United States.

[MIMStigator]

48. It's the whole CULTURAL divide thing

it will add to that is what i'm saying.

[IndianaGreen]

86. The cultural divide is a conservative myth

In a true democracy, one must respect the choices that people make for their lives, including the choice of careers, and the choice of life partner.

[killbotfactory]

24. She does have his name...

She used her own in their practice to differentiate themselves.

"Oh Dr. Dean!"
Howard: "Yes?"
Judy: "Yes?"

And I think Judy can stand up in the looks department to Barbara Bush or Nancy Reagan.

[maxanne]

25. fortunately

most people don't share your offensive views.

[MIMStigator]

30. unfortunately

you don't know what my views are other than I think a LOT of voters will be turned off by Dean's wife.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

33. Big deal

I bet you also think a lot of voters will be turned off by his record, his positions, his supporters, his finger pointing, his pronunciation of the word "idea", and his penchant for mowing the lawn in a suit.

So forgive us if we don't find you objective.

[maxanne]

168. you used the term

feminazi, and then said she was ugly. That gives me a very good idea of what your views are.

[dsc]

78. Hey Clark people

is this BS acceptable to you? As you will see below I am also criticising the Dean supporter who did this.

[Rowdyboy]

155. It's certainly not acceptable to me

IMO, mimstigator's post was unadulterated bullshit. I find it offensive for anyone to question a couple's private decision on the wife's last name. I was even a little disappointed when Hillary finally adopted Clinton.

As to her profession, I can't imagine that being used against her in any meaningful way by serious people.

As to physical attraction, well, I'm gay so none of them do much for me. She's no worse than any of the others.

[dsc]

167. Thanks you very much

well said.

[Toucano]

170. No, it is out of line.

It isn't about how anybody looks.

[mikehiggins]

156. Now that is uncalled for and, IMHO, more than a little offensive.

Eleanor Roosevelt wasn't too much to look at, and may well have been a lesbian, but she was a brave and gutsy woman who followed her beliefs to the end.

Dean is lucky to have a woman like his wife.

[White Mountain]

162. Looks

What's up with the looks comments? Who cares what she looks like?

[Name removed]

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[IndianaGreen]

11. Judy Steinberg is a doctor with a private practice

Why would she trade that for the bullshit role of the political wife?

I don't expect Teresa Heinz to exchange the Heinz Philanthropies for the vapid existence of First Lady.

We don't expect Big Dog to stand behind Hillary like a doofus just because Hillary is a US Senator, or even President. So why are we holding women to a different standard that we hold men?

Sexism is alive and well in the Democratic Party!

[MIMStigator]

21. Not sexist to say some people will be turned off

if it's true it needs to be said. Hillary changed her name back when she knew they had to do that to win. Maybe that was selling out but Bill got 8 years and now she is in the Senate. go figure.

[IndianaGreen]

Some people think that women should be in the missionary position

when not barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

That kind of people would never vote Democratic! Why should I give a fuck about what they think?

[Scott Lee]

45. Some people are turned off by not marrying your cousin. So?

[MIMStigator]

50. LOL........so if they are enough to decide election then

dean should say she's his cousin

[Scott Lee]

97. That was funny. No, really.

But in truth, I doubt Howard comes from them circles. That's more in Bushhole country.

[Party of the People]

75. Still, I do take offense

at your assessment of her beauty or lack thereof.

I think she looks just fine; certainly as good-looking or more than any first lady in at least 25 years!

[KittyWampus]

40. Okay, If My Husband Got An 8 Year Gig Working Out Of State

I most certainly WOULD consider taking a hiatus and go with him... especially if it was a job where I could play a role as "Hostess" to countless Heads of State & Dignataries.

My view of marriage is a partnership with both people supporting one another's choices.

Although Governor Dean supports his wife's decision to continue in her career... it is a FACT that Dean's wife choose NOT to take time off and participate in Dean's political career.

Being First Lady is NOT VAPID nor does it mean standing around looking adoringly at your husband.

It can be as influential as the First Lady wants it to be... think Eleanor Roosevelt... or Hillary Clinton.

Dean's wife could CERTAINLY switch gears for 4-8 years and work on Health Issues on 0the National Level. Or take up whatever cause she felt were important.

It is certainly her decision to make and I respect it.

[IndianaGreen]

53. Eleanor Roosevelt was not a White House hostess

She was an indefatigable champion of workers' rights, women's rights, and desegregation. This is why FDR could not stand her!

Eleanor would have made a better President than FDR.

[dsc]

84. She has repeatedly said

she will move to DC and the WH. She also intends to continue her career. I see nothing at all wrong with that. We would never expect CMB's husband, if there were one, to give up his career.

[KittyWampus]

98. I Can Say Categorically, I'd Expect My Husband To TEMPORARILY

put his primary career on hold if I was elected President. And to be First Husband while I was in office.

And after the 8 years was up... it would be his turn.

That is how I see a good relationship working.

Occassionally being willing to sacrifice one's own individual, personal goals for one's partner...
although, in reality it would not be a sacrifice... it would be an adventure and an opportunity.

[dsc]

117. and that would be your choice

but evidently they have chosen differently. And they have every right to do that. Dr. Judith Dean, went to school for a long time to earn the right to be called that. And if she wishes to practice medicine in DC then all the more power to her. I would imagine that more than a few DC residents have need of a good doctor.

[Name removed]

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[onebigbadwulf]

16. Lose so big?

Every union worker, teacher, moderate, conservative, and liberal will vote for him.

The only votes Dean won't get are poor religious right and the rich. Sorry.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

26. No, you misunderstood

The new poster said "Loose so big." I think that has something to do with Howard needing a looser collar on his shirts.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[IndianaGreen]

37. If Dean is liberal, then...

Kucinich is a bloody Communist!

Get a grip!

[GalleryGod]

112. Hark! A NAIVETE' Alert!

judicious use of the word "every"?:puffpiece:

[GalleryGod]

107. ROFLMAO

Well put:7 :party: :hippie: :hi:

[FrenchieCat]

14. I believe that

a President's wife should do what she can to help in the greater good of the U.S.

Dean's wife could always go back to practicing medicine after serving her country.

I pause at someone who believes that it's business as usual, when being given the opportunity to have a platform to do many wonderful things for America.

I believe that public service is more appropriate than private practice when you have the chance.......IMO

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. Excuse me while I roll my eyes

If Dean's wife were following him around on the campaign trail, no doubt it would be said that she has "abandoned" her trusted patients and well, we can't have that! Where's her loyalty? Doesn't she care about the sick people?

Please.

But it's an interesting exercise to see how people can make an argument for ANYTHING.

[maxanne]

29. oh boy!

She should sacrifice herself for the greater good. What century is this?

[Name removed]

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[Toucano]

60. Do you live in the same world I do?

Have you never seen the role the First Lady plays in the media? Laura's "french kiss" was all over the world papers!

The Presidency has a strong component of imagery in the modern world. That can't be denied.

Plus, the First Lady or (someday) First Gentlemen can be a wonderful advisor. Rosalyn Carter is a good example.

[Scott Lee]

100. Here on planet earth, Doctors are admired people.

Especially ones that don't let things get in the way of their primary objective. Wouldn't the people of the world admire a First Lady committed to her patients rather than sweeping the porch on command, or dressing like a rumpled curtain bag for the Queen of England?

[Toucano]

123. Not practical.

I don't see how someone can practice medicine effectively with Secret Service people around 24 hrs a day.

If people are going to admire her, they have to see and hear her first. Not just admire the "idea" of her.

[Scott Lee]

152. Being a Doctor is an "idea" of a person?

So is that sheepskin she obtained bearing witness to her field merely an "idea" too?

You're losing it here, Pancho.

[Toucano]

161. People aren't inspired by a resume.

That's just the "idea" of her. Although it is impressive, of course. It isn't as concrete as the actual person, right?

If people can see her, hear her speak then they can be inspired by her.


That's what I meant.

[Scott Lee]

165. And you assume Dean's wife won't meet anyone as First Lady?

Surely you jest.

[Toucano]

169. Why are you trying to hide her?

As a busy physician, I'm sure she'll have time to meet and greet hundreds of millions of people. And that won't be more stressfull than a little television interview would be.

I found one image of them together and I like it. I'd like to know more about her. I get the feeling she could be someone I'd enjoy meeting.

[dsc]

175. No one is hiding her

I realize for some people the idea that a woman can decide whether or not to go on TV even if she happens to be married to a candidate is heady stuff. But I am sure you will get used to the phone some day too.

[Toucano]

177. That's just silly.

The phone has been around longer than television!:silly:

You gotta let your light shine, not hide it under a basket.

My prediction: Judith will ease into public life and assume a more ordinary role (in regard to media appearances, not the role of women in society; her career is her own business) if Dean gets the nomination. She'll get more comfortable with it. We'll get to know her better.

I make this prediction because there seems to be no reason offered other than personal shyness. She just doesn't want to get in the spotlight and get burned for no reason. If it looks like it's going to matter, she'll be there. I'm looking forward to it.

[not systems]

15. Not at all.

Dean shows that a real man is not diminished by his wifes independent career.

You thought otherwise?

[JohnKleeb]

19. I dont see a problem with it

:shrug: This is like deja vu for me honestly, I am told that my guy's lack of a wife will hurt him.

[Octafish]

20. From what I know, she's a GREAT doctor.

Her patients love her and they get better. She also wants to keep practicing, should they move to 1600 Pennsylvania, Ave., Washington D.C. in January, 2005.

[incapsulated]

47. Bad Idea

She should forget the idea about practicing if he's elected. I can just see rethug operatives going to see her so they can hit her with a million malpractice suits.

Horrid, but completely believable.

[Raya]

23. Bothers Me that Wife not at all supportive of Dean's Political Activities.

Her refusal to be involved in any way give the impression that
she is not proud of what he is doing. I really will be an image
handicap in the General as the Republicans focus on family values.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

31. "Refusal to be involved in any way"

Where do you get that? She's been involved to the extent that she feels is appropriate. She has sent letters to his supporters, stood beside him at the announcement and other events, and I just watched her in a great DVD bio about the Gov.

Let's not overreact, shall we? She just chooses not to follow him around on the campaign trail. She has a job.

[IndianaGreen]

34. Are women to be mindless robots, drooling idiotically at whatever their

husbands do?

Get real! Hillary put all of those stereotypes to bed back in 1992, or so I thought!

[KittyWampus]

54. Actively Participating In Your Husband's Career Is "Mindless Robot"?

Again, if my husband job necessitated moving out of state for 4-8 years I would certainly take a brake and shift gears in my own career.

And then, 8 years later... would expect my husband to support whatever career decisions I decided to make.

Who is expecting any of the Candidates' wives to "drool like mindless robots?"

[IndianaGreen]

58. I would describe Pat Nixon and Nancy Reagan as mindless robots

standing respectfully a couple of paces BEHIND their husbands.

This is the 21st Century people!

How long are we to perpetuate the sterotypical sex roles?

[KittyWampus]

101. Kinda Agree About Pat & Nancy Although Nancy Wore The Pants

I suspect. She just played mindless robot to the cameras really well. :)

What do you think of Dr. Bartlett on the West Wing? :D

[robbedvoter]

36. Person who knows him best is not in his corner - hmmmmm

It doesn't look good, as feminist as I am. Hillary took the Clinton name to help Big Dog though this. I guess she thought more about the validity of Bill's chances/aspirations. Mind you, I cast no aspersions on Dr...(?). On the contrary - she may be smarter than you all.

[Raya]

46. Agree. Judith is probably VERY SMART in her attitude to Howard's Business

[RevolutionStartsNow]

57. Not in his corner? WTF?

Could the lies and bullshit get any thicker here? Who said she's "not in his corner?"

I guess it's okay to just make stuff up....

[robbedvoter]

89. I know his name, I don't know hers. Why? Where is she? Not in his corner

It's quite conspicuous considering the tradition and the large field.

[dsc]

108. She is doing her fucking job

Oh and by the way, her legal name is Dr. Judith Dean. She uses Steinburg due to wanting to avoid confusion with her husband. It astonishes me how sexist some people are. This woman went to school for over 10 years (counting residency) to get to where she is. She spent time, effort, and money to get there. Just why in God's name should she have to trapse around the country just so you can find out her name when you are too damn lazy to type www.deanforamerica.com and find out for yourself?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

109. Only conspicuous to you.

Everyone else seems to know her name. Maybe you just aren't paying enough attention...

She's in his corner all the way. That's not the same as being on the campaign trail. But feel free to sling baseless accusations, it's quite trendy and passes the time.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[not systems]

65. Sabotage mission delta x...

preceding on schedule.

Defeat is assured.

Return to base for updated mission.

[RetroLounge]

127. Prepare for Tombstoning

Getting ready for overreaching...

5-4-3-2-1

[amazona]

42. clearly she's a liability

It would be difficult for me to campaign for someone whose own wife won't campaign for him. I think many southerners would feel the same.

I think I might actually have less sympathy for her than most. As a high-functioning autistic, I know what it's like not to want to deal with people. However, if my partner was running for public office, I would put my own problems aside and do what I had to do. Either she thinks her husband's efforts are worth making some changes for in her personal life or she doesn't. Well, she has made it clear that she doesn't. She can deal with people enough to be a doctor -- in other words, when it's important to HER -- but not when it's important to her husband.

It is definitely a minus any way you look at it.

And I feel the same about a man who would stab his wife in the back -- the prime example comes from the GOP being Bob Dole who lost his chance and then, when there was talk of running his wife, decided to be the spokesman for Erectile Dysfunction. A guaranteed way to make sure Elizabeth would never be able to show him up by running for President herself. I really thought that was ugly and unnecessary. But it kept HIM in the public eye and her out of it so that's what mattered, right?

Many people marry people who end up sabotaging and backstabbing them. Sometimes you can overcome the drag, sometimes you can't. But it's certainly never a plus.

[IndianaGreen]

55. I don't think much of a culture that saw nothing wrong in separate

park benches for whites and "colored."

That culture still exists today, and it is not necessarily confined to certain states. We still treat women as being less than men, and we still haven't come to grips with racism in this country, and we continue to view gay Americans as a pedophile factory.

[not systems]

56. Not clear at all.

I recieved a fund raising letter from her.

I liked it.

I like her.

I sent a check.

The implication that she is "sabotaging and backstabbing"
Howard is over the top and uncivil.

[deutsey]

59. I guess she could always bake a batch of cookies

:evilgrin: (you may recall Hillary did this during the '92 campaign to reassure the alarmed masses that she was indeed a happy homemaker, or something).

Frankly, this question of yours has never occurred to me.

Now that it has, I can honestly say I don't see her as a liability. But then, my wife and I have a very co-equal partnership even though I have my things that I do on my own and she has hers.

[Toucano]

68. But you're not running the country!

I think it's great for two people to share their lives and balance their careers. There's no criticism of that. But in the spotlight of the presidency, I'd like to know more about her. I'd like to see them together from time to time.

First Ladies, especially Democratic First Ladies, have a long-standing tradition of doing more than "baking cookies"

Eleanor Roosevelt
Jackie Kennedy
Rosalyn Carter
Hillary Clinton

They all helped shape their husband's presidency in some way or another.

Republican's have also, just not as positively. :)

[deutsey]

90. Thank god for that

I have nary a desire to try running this jalopy of a country. :evilgrin:

What I was saying is I believe my relationship (if I do say so myself) is a more mature way of looking at marriage, i.e., two adults committed to each other but not dependent on one to be in the shadow of the other.

Judith is her own person, a professional doctor, and someone who wants to remain dedicated to her calling as opposed to giving all that up to shape her husband's presidency (and conform to the "strange" expectations that people have of First Ladies).

And I would imagine that by simply being married to Dean, she will have an impact on him and his presidency should he be elected.

All in all, no liability to me.

PS: I sort of like Hillary, but I thought that cookie stunt was just ridiculous.

[Toucano]

99. True

I think the POTUS position has a slightly different dynamic, though.

I don't think one person has to live in the other's shadow. On the contrary, both are in the spotlight.

Can she really expect to continue practicing medicine with secret service people around her all the time? The wife of a Vermont governor wouldn't be a great terrorist target, but the wife of a president would.

Hillary made up for the ridiculous cookie baking thing when she pulled out that "Rodham" right after the swearing in. That was cool.

[deutsey]

103. Excuse me while I pull this "rodham" out

Sorry, couldn't resist.

And frankly, I think the "dynamic" of a married presidential couple is really determined by them. The dynamic (if there is one) between Bonzo and Pickles is very different from what Bill and Hillary had, just as the Clinton's dynamic was different from, say, JFK and Jackie, or Nixon and Pat, or LBJ and Ladybird, or Bess and Harry, or even FDR and Eleanor.

[KaraokeKarlton]

62. I'm sure the moderators and admins thank you

for posting what many (myself included) will view as flame bait.

Judith Steinberg Dean is NOT running for president. She supports her husband's choice to run and will move her practice to DC should he be elected, where she will continue to reside with him just as she always has. She doesn't share his interest or passion in politics and she isn't obligated to.

[Toucano]

66. Is a reasonable discussion flame bait?

There's room here to have a valuable discussion. I have no interest in attacking her or Dean. But I think the topic is worthy of examining. Like it or not, the candidate's spouse is a factor to some people.

I invited everyone to ignore the tread if they wish.

And I appreciate your contibution.

[quaker bill]

69. Are most women employed?

Should women give up their ambitions to serve their husbands career?

I think not. I believe it sets an excellent example.

[KittyWampus]

106. Taking A Hiatus While Your Husband Has An 8 Year Job

is hardly "giving up one's ambition to serve their husband's career".

I think there's a REAL undercurrent of self centered "My Individual Fulfillment Matters Most" running through our society and this thread has touched that.

Heck, a lot of fairly well off families don't even have one parent willing to take a couple of years off work to raise a child... it might set back their "careers".

[RevolutionStartsNow]

71. Your post may have been sincere

but it unfortunately drew in a bunch of bullshit about how Dean's wife is "Not in his corner" or even "stabbing him in the back."

A sensible discussion about this issue would have been much welcomed, but I don't think it's possible on DU anymore.

If you were sincere, here's my take: I think the Repubs may try to use it as a liability, but I give American voters the benefit of the doubt that they will see Judith Steinberg Dean as a strong and committed woman who would make an excellent First Lady and be a great example for young women. Dean's family life is quite mainstream, both parents working and 2 kids, they won't get far trying to distort this. I think it's a non-issue or a minor issue at best.

[Toucano]

82. Okay

I appreciate you outlook.

I agree that voters will be able to relate to the two working parent household. That's a good point.

But I also think she could attend a rally, have some photos taken, speak into a microphone. If she doesn't, it looks like she's got something to hide. Not that she does have something to hide, mind you. But nobody is THAT busy. She should reconsider before the convention.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

114. She was at the announcement speech

And there are many nice photos of her with the Gov, including a DVD that she is featured on and that is shown at a lot of events.

Based on that, I expect her to be at the convention.

My impression is that she and Howard have a "team" approach to their marriage, which I can relate to because mine is the same. We definitely don't do everything together (he's a Repub!) but we are very supportive of one another.

[KaraokeKarlton]

88. Reasonable discussion my ass

You implied that there is some rumor going around that Judith won't live with her husband if he's elected president. There has never been any such rumors ever mentioned on here or in the media. It's widely known that should he win she will move her practice to Washington. It's obvious what the true intentions of this thread is, and it ain't reasonable discussion.

:puke:

[IndianaGreen]

76. Teresa Heinz doesn't think much of politics or being a political wife

While attending the University of Geneva, Teresa met H. John Heinz III, heir to the H.J. Heinz food company fortune. Teresa and John were married in 1966. When John decided to go into politics by running for Congress in 1971, Teresa Heinz shunned the role of political wife, choosing instead to focus her energies in being "a wife and mother" (Leibovich).

When many of the political leaders in Pennsylvania urged Teresa to run for her John Heinz's seat, she chose instead to take over the Heinz family philanthropies. Four years later, after naming Teresa Heinz one of the magazine's visionaries for 1995, the magazine speculated as to the reasons why Teresa Heinz had declined to run for her late husband's Senate seat:

(Teresa Heinz) views her prolific philanthropy as a way of "fixing things" that is more effective than political campaigns, which are in her words, "the graveyard of real ideas and the birthplace of empty promises" (Utne 1995)

End Notes:

Leibovich, M., (2002, June 5). What Teresa Heinz found and what she lost. The Washington Post. Retrieved March 1, 2003, from http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020605teresanat1p1.asp

Utne Visionaries: People Who Could Change Your Life (1995). Utne Reader. Retrieved March 3, 2003, from http://cafe.utne.com/visionaries/95vision4.html

[Toucano]

85. But she's quoted a lot.

I don't think I've seen a photo of her, but I have heard from her.

[IndianaGreen]

105. You didn't even bother to go to the links I provided

This makes me question your motives when you started this thread...


Sen . John Kerry and Teresa Heinz
at a gala benefit for the Pittsburgh
Opera last year.
(Gabor Degre, Post-Gazette)

[Toucano]

115. No I didn't.

Because I'm not interest in Teresa. Kerry isn't going to get the nomination anyway, and I don't like him.

I've heard and read plenty of what Teresa has to say. I haven't heard enough about Judith and want to understand her better. That's the reason for the thread.

Even if these are Republican talking points, I think it is worthwhile to fully discuss them.

[in_cog_ni_to]

67. I don't know.

I remember how Hillary pissed off mid-america with her..."Staying home to bake cookies" remark. Mrs. Dean NOT being involved may turn off some senior citizens. Maybe.

She doesn't want to be involved in politics and wishes to continue being a doctor. I'm cool with that, but some people may not be. How's that for an opinion. LOL!

Go Clark!!! :bounce:

[genius]

70. Bush's wife killed somebody

and that didn't hurt Bush.

[Party of the People]

77. This response lives up to your screen name.

Thank you for some perspective!

[dsc]

132. great post

I figured I would take the oportunity to say that.

[MariaS]

72. Jackie O

was a much beloved 1st lady who was as popular as JFK. I have read where JFK kiddingly refered to himself not as president but as Jackie's Husband. I think it is an important role that nowadays could accomplish much. I have longed for the days when first ladies wouldn't be little suzy homemakers but issue oriented and individual enough to work side by side with the President. I was excited in the 1990s' with the prospect of Hillary working on the healthcare issue and healthcare was the main reason I voted Clinton in 1996 but the outcry from the Repugs and the pound their chest males put the brakes on any chance of that.

[IndianaGreen]

81. That was forty years ago!

Women wore hats then, and wouldn't think of going out to have tea at Indy's L.S. Ayres without wearing a hat and white gloves.

We are living in a new century!

Americans may not demand that their women wear a veil when outdoors, but they expect their women to be just as subservient and invisible as the Taliban did theirs.

[Toucano]

87. How does appearing with her husband

make her subservient to him?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

74. Hold On...If Dean Wins, She Won't Live With Him in the White House?

Is that really true?

I would find it bizarre for EITHER spouse not to move where the other is, if the other just got a fantastic out-of-town job.

DTH

[RevolutionStartsNow]

80. Not true

Are you surprised?

She also isn't "not in his corner" and she hasn't "stabbed him in the back."

Witnessing the disintegration of DU is sad sad sad.

(Not aimed at you DTH...)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

83. Thanks, I Thought That Was a Bit Bizarre

:shaking head:

DTH

[Toucano]

91. I only reported what I heard.

If it isn't true, I appreciate you clearing it up.

It isn't disintegration of DU to ask that rumours be addressed if they are just rumours. My question was "what's the deal?"

I appreciate your response. You have added value to the discussion.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

92. Where Did You Hear It?

Was it in a printed source, or word-of-mouth?

DTH

[Toucano]

110. I thought I read it somewhere

But it may have been in a word of mouth conversation.

It looks like it is untrue. I'll edit my original post to reflect that. She says she will move to DC.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/08/22/deans_wife_focusing_on_career_not_campaign/

http://www.redding.com/news/national/past/20030810nat219.shtml

on edit:

Sorry can't edit original link. Time has expired.

[KaraokeKarlton]

104. Please provide a link to where you heard this

if you don't have a link I'd like to know exactly where you heard it. What newspaper, television station, news show, or whatever your source for this supposed rumor actually is.

[KittyWampus]

113. Thanks For Setting The Record Straight!!!

Personally, I think it could be a gas being First Lady.

[Zomby Woof]

94. Dean is his own liability

He doesn't need any help.

[Julien Sorel]

95. Not when compared to her husband.

[not systems]

129. That tooth is kinda pointy.

No really.

Will america accept a tooth like that?

I think not.

[IndianaGreen]

96. Thank you, dralston, for endorsing Dennis Kucinich

Dennis is a bachelor, so with him we wouldn't have this argument between those that think that women should be free to make their own choices about their lives and careers, and those that still believe that women should defer to their husbands' career choices.

Go Dennis Go!

[Toucano]

102. Oh, no!

You know how wild those bachelors are in pursuit of their physical needs! LOL! Dennis could have the White House full of ladies of ill-repute! We don't need a president on the make all the time. We've had that! Just kidding.

Again IndianaGreen, no one said the First Lady has to be subservient or deferential. Just visible.

[IndianaGreen]

111. Tell that to Thomas Jefferson!

Again IndianaGreen, no one said the First Lady has to be subservient or deferential. Just visible.

Such a sexist statement. In fact, this entire thread reeks of the sort of sexism one hears from TV Evangelists or rightwing radio.

We should abolish the term "First Lady" from the lexicon entirely!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

116. Hear Hear!

[Toucano]

120. Whaaa?

How is visibility of the First Spouse (better?) sexism?

Does the "entire thread" include your posts?

Click ignore if you don't want to participate. You won't hurt my feelings.

[Oreegone]

118. Our Elderly Ladies

Our Elderly Ladies in the Dean campaign LOVE the fact that his wife has a career and follows it. It has been mentioned over and over again to me. To a lot of older more conservative women this is something that makes Dean damn near a sex idol.......Anyone who would bring this totally silly line of discussion in 2004 is stuck in some other century.

As one woman told me, when a company hires someone their spouse doesn't go to work also.

Ignore the BS all is well in the world of Dean and even more conservative types view...looks like just another subdued attempt to stir the shit.

[Toucano]

121. Well thanks a lot!

You may see it as stirring, but I have actually got a better understanding of the issue than I had before the thread started.

Isn't that the point of discussion? Would some Dean supporters like there to be no dissent? Some questions cannot be asked?

I appreciate what you've contributed and see the issue as having room for a lot of positive interpretation for Dr. Dean.

Thanks.

on edit:

POTUS isn't just a job. I think it goes way beyond "a job"!

[Julien Sorel]

125. Spouses play a huge role in high-level

company politics. I have no idea who told you 'when a company hires someone their spouse doesn't go to work also,' but it's a complete fiction. People bring their spouses to work with them every day, and more importantly, they bring their work home to their spouses, every day. Spouses entertain. Spouses get involved in corporate politics. Spouses network. Spouses serve as a sounding board, someone who can be trusted to give their viewpoint with your best interests in mind -- often, the only person who can be so trusted.

[IndianaGreen]

128. Only applies to those on the corporate ladder to success

The vast majority of Americans need both spouses to work to just make ends meet. The millions of the working poor are more interested in getting by in their low pay jobs without insurance.

The only other environment in which there were "expectations" of a wife, was for officers in the military--usually for Academy "ring knockers," not the ones that came from an ROTC program.

[Le Taz Hot]

122. Un-

fucking believable. First race baiting, now mysogeny. And this is now acceptable on DU. :puke:

[Toucano]

124. Hatred of women?

Who said anything about hating women?

I never even said anything about hating Judith!

You think it is :puke: to ask a question?

[caledesi]

126. Obviously, she hasn't been a liability so far...so why will she be one

in the future? Puhleeze. She's doctor. <crucify her>

[Toucano]

131. That's a very good point.

No one suggested she be crucified. Don't be so dramatic.:)

The general election will be different than the primaries, though.

I'm glad we're addressing it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

130. Good grief. What's next? Dean's dog may pee on the carpet?

His wife "may not" want to walk around humbly behind the prez and is unwilling to give up her own work so she can decorate the WH? How unAmerican!!

She probably even thinks for herself!!

Talk about desperation. I have nothing against Clark but some of his supporters are really getting ridiculous in their criticisms of Dean.

[IndianaGreen]

134. I don't take a poster's avatar at face value, and neither should you.

Anyone can take an avatar from a political candidate and proceed to wreak havoc while making people think that his/her views are typical of those having a similar avatar.

There is at least one DUer that was honest enough to admit he changed avatars frequently and that they had nothing to do with his own views on the campaign (this poster was not a disruptor in anyway).

There are some posters that I totally trust because I am familiar with their views, and their support for their respective candidates.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

148. No offense to Clark.

I would have said the same thing if the person's avatar had been Dean's or anyone elses and brought up something this idiotic. It's the trivialization that I find ridiculous.

As far as "wreaking havoc", I doubt that (at least, I hope that) most of the people here would be swayed by a potential first lady's participation or non-participation in the campaign.

This kind of thing ranks right up there with what brand of underwear a candidate wears.

[Toucano]

140. I offered no criticism of Dean.

I simply asked a question.

I am critical of the appearance that Judith is hiding something. I think it may be unwise politically for her to not participate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

147. Hiding what?

Maybe she's a radical right wing whacko who thinks Rush is a real hunk, and Bush is smart. Sooooo....????

I won't be voting for the first lady. Will you?

[Toucano]

150. That isn't the point.

No one votes for First Lady, but it can help.

She has adopted an unprecedented position. It isn't a wrong position, it just hasn't been done before.

The question was will it be a liability.

[RetroLounge]

133. "This has probably been discussed before"

"This has probably been discussed before" Then why post it again?

"so ignore the thread if you're tired of it" Oh, we NEVER get tired of these type of threads. They strengthen Dean's support, and make the detractors look worse. Carry on..

"I know it's been said that she may not live in the White House"
Bullshite. You got as link? Nope? Didn't think so.

"While I have no problem with this personally" I'll just post it here and let the others who DO have problems with it stir the pot. Then I'll join in on their side. We'll have a big old circle jerk of misogyny and Dean bashing. It'll be fun. Trust me.

"I wonder if it looks bad for Dean in the general election" No you don't. Your posts prove that. You already have your opinion, and it's obvious by seeing what points you are defending.

"People can be awfully strange about such things." Obviously.

"What's the deal with her?" Well, where I come from, we call her a DOCTOR, very smart, with a career, well earned, and well respected. What would you call her?

[Toucano]

138. Answers

"This has probably been discussed before" Then why post it again?

Because I want to know what people think of it now.

"so ignore the thread if you're tired of it" Oh, we NEVER get tired of these type of threads. They strengthen Dean's support, and make the detractors look worse. Carry on..

That may very well be the case. How is that bad?

"I know it's been said that she may not live in the White House"
Bullshite. You got as link? Nope? Didn't think so.

I will continue to search for a link. I was definately told this or read it. I concede that it is likely not true.

"While I have no problem with this personally" I'll just post it here and let the others who DO have problems with it stir the pot. Then I'll join in on their side. We'll have a big old circle jerk of misogyny and Dean bashing. It'll be fun. Trust me.

I haven't joined on any side. I've discussed the idea that it's a liability. Read the thread, if you please. There is junk in there, but some of it has merit.

"I wonder if it looks bad for Dean in the general election" No you don't. Your posts prove that. You already have your opinion, and it's obvious by seeing what points you are defending.

Are you calling me a liar? I do wonder. People have discussed it. It's been good. I am defending the point that she shouldn't hide. That a presidential spouse is more than a spouse.

"People can be awfully strange about such things." Obviously.

"What's the deal with her?" Well, where I come from, we call her a DOCTOR, very smart, with a career, well earned, and well respected. What would you call her?

The pronoun "her" is not disrespectful or misogynistic. I call her an unknown quantity. That's why I asked about her.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

143. Incorrect.

Lieberman is in the wrong party.

Lieberman is running to the right of Bush.

Dean stands in the center of the real american mainstream.

The one that believes violence is not the essence of our
national character.

This election is about character, Dean has it.

[dd123]

136. This is only ONE of the reasons I love Howard Dean so much.

It shows an incredible amount of consideration for his wife that he does not pressure her to campaign. It also shows self-confidence that he doesn't have to fit a mold to run for office.

When Gov Dean talks about how smart Dr. Judy is (smarter than him!) I think that he is such a fabulous husband because he just beams about her! He is proud of her and it shows.

After his incredibly successful sleepless summer tour where 10,000 people showed up in NY and 15,000 in WA, the first thing he did when he got home was his laundry! Isn't he a wonderful wonderful man?

As Governor, he also had more flexibility in his hours so he did a lot of the child care duties.

Howard Dean's Mom brought him up right. I swoon for this kind of stuff.

[mzmolly]

139. Is Clarks wife?

Dean's wife is an asset.

[Toucano]

141. Start your own thread! LOL!

Dean's wife is likely an asset. But I'd like to see more of her.

[mzmolly]

142. She's busy working. But I've never even seen Clarks wife...

got a pic? ;)

[Toucano]

149. It's not about how people look.

Please don't misunderstand. I am not SLAMMING Dean or SMEARING Judith. If people see it that way, I apoligize.

This was not intended to be a hot or not question.

I only wonder if her lack of participation was a liability. It is a legitimate question. It has been raised by others. I wanted to know what people think, and now I do. It's almost like I live in a democracy, now! Free exchange of ideas and all.

People have made a good case that it isn't a liability, yet I still wish she would step out of the shadows a little bit. Don't give me that doctor committed to patients argument, cause I'm not buying it.

Gert Clark was reticent about running for President, but is frequently with him at campaign functions and speaks about their life in "American Son".




This one includes their son, Wes.

I think this reveals that we all know the candidate we support quite well, but know little about the other candidates. Gert is a fixture to me. I'm glad to know more about Judith. She sounds like a remarkable women.

[zulchzulu]

144. Let's leave Dean's wife out of this

The GOP will make it an issue. Dean (who doesn't want people to attack him) has already attacked Kerry's wife, Teresa.

We all know what kind of man it takes to attack another man's wife.

[Fleshdancer]

145. Wives are not dogs

If Dean wins the nomination, I hope this GE can once and for all end the concept that a candidate's wife must be pranced around for public consumption. Judith Steinberg Dean, like most American women, have more important things to do...like work.

[Toucano]

158. No one ever said they were.

No one said they have to be pranced about for public consumption.

There is a long tradition in this country of the spouse of the president being a public figure.

There is also a tradition of Democratic wives employing the media attention and public interest they receive to draw attention toward a domestic issue.

Those traditions aren't demeaning to women.

[IndianaGreen]

178. There is no such tradition!

There is a long tradition in this country of the spouse of the president being a public figure.

That is not true at all! Historically the wives of President were kept in the background, and were hardly ever seen in public. It wasn't until the advent of the motion pictures that one began to see clips of the President's wife. Television turned everything into a spectacle in which TV audiences felt they had a right to poke into people's private lifes.

Political operatives have used candidates' wives as props to assure the public that the man running for office doesn't have horns. We know that this is not true at all!

[Padraig18]

151. I can scarcely believe some of the responses to this thread.

Some of them are about as 'progressive' as Jerry Falwell's sermons. :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

153. Really pulls the curtain away from some "democrats", no?

I agree. "Shocking" barely describes it.

[Rowdyboy]

157. Pretty damned disgusting, if you ask me

Excuse my language, but this is insanity. The woman has a right to take any name she chooses. She is a practicing professional, which impresses the hell out of me, and (while I think appearance is an insipid qualification) she is no better or worse looking than the other Democratic spouses.

As a strong, long-time Clark supporter, this entire thread depresses and embarrasses me.

[Padraig18]

159. Thank you.

You are far more representative of the 'mainstream Clark supporter' than certain others, IMO. :hi:

[deutsey]

172. I'm so happy to read your post

I'm a Dean supporter, but I like Clark. If Dean loses the nomination (which I'm working to prevent), I would like Clark to win it.

:hi:

[ibegurpard]

180. As it should

I don't think you need to be a supporter of ANY particular candidate to be embarrassed and ashamed at some of the crap spewed in this thread.

[mikehiggins]

154. Who cares?

She is reputedly a physician of high standards and excellence. Nobody, IMHO, is going to give a rat's ass if she helps Dean run or not, or if she lives at the White House or not.

I, for one, would give her top points for sticking to her convictions and not letting her life be subsumed into her husbands.

Wes and Gert Clark are a team, and have shared interests for decades. She has always been a model partner and if she hadn't agreed to his doing it, Clark wouldn't have run, even though, as he has said, he really wanted to. When two people are tied together at so many levels they truly are a team.

[maddezmom]

171. Not a problem for me at all

She deserves credit for going on with her life and her career. She has a practice, people depending on her. So she's not willing or wants to campaign...who cares. It's her life and their marriage, if they are happy that way so be it.

[maxanne]

173. question for you dralston

Would we be having this conversation if a woman were running for president? Would we expect her husband to ditch his job and walk 10 paces behind her, gazing adoringly?

I think NOT. :puke:

the level of sexism here is a constant and unwelcome revelation.

[jonnyblitz]

181. surprising for a supposedly "progressive" discussion board

isnt it...

[thinkahead]

176. Dean's wife will be a maverick

just like he is. Perhaps she inspires him to be so. I certainly admire her standing by her career of helping her fellow citizens - as her husband tries to do so as well.

[SahaleArm]

179. A few articles from DFA

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_JSD

[bitchkitty]

182. I figured it was only a while until

the wingut haters started attacking Dean's wife. Yes, wingnut haters - newbies who post hate thread after hate thread, or gather on the hate threads and post stupid replies, so they can kick their hate threads to the top.

I'm choosing to believe that it's an influx of freepers, rather than believe that Democrats could act like this. What a bunch of assholes.

[Moderator]

183. I am locking this thread.

It is inflammatory, sexist and has gone on long enough.


Thanks for understanding.

DU Moderator