If You Can't Acknowledge Cheney Was *Good* Last Night - You Hurt Us

[NashVegas]

Cheney was damn good - he lied!

He's been doing this for the last three years. He lies with great conviction and he tells whoppers. It's what the press was dealing with when Ari Fliescher was press secretary.

There are already several threads devoted to Cheney's lies. Better to spread those around than to try to go into work saying that Edwards won. That's just burying your head in the sand and it never accomplished anything.

[trumad]

1. Why acknowledge that?

what good would that do.... Have you seen the polls regarding the debate? Edwards is killing Dick. No surrender!

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. I posted this elsewhere, but it applies to this thread:

The polls are showing that the public is voting in favor of John Edwards at a 2 to 1 ratio. Even the newspapers are bringing up his more salient points. How can that be when Edwards was up against a persuasive, more experienced opponent?

In a nutshell, because Cheney is veracity impaired. He simply cannot tell the truth. Yes, he's experienced and yes, he's persuasive. Very, very persuasive. But he's also a liar. He persuaded us to go to war with Iraq and now we are beginning to understand that his compelling reasons to go to Iraq, i.e. WMD & Sadaam tied to 9/11, was not just wrong, but that the V.P. had enough personal information at that time to know he was lying to us.

This man is all about personal profit and he will destroy this country to acquire it. HE IS NOT A PATRIOT. Patriots don't put their own interests before the interests of the country.

Finally, this is one thing I learned about Cheney last night that I didn't know before. One of the pundits (who was actually on his side) called him a Western style LIBERTARIAN. Was I the last person on this planet to know that Cheney is a L/libertarian?

[mikehiggins]

10. No, you aren't the last one

I helped start the Libertarian Party in New York State back in the 70's. Didn't play a major part, and came to my senses pretty quickly after the basic insanity of an anarchist political party sank in.

I met lots and lots of real libertarians in the process and nothing about Cheney matches up.

He might be one of the villains out of an Ayn Rand novel, though.

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. With Bush & Cheney we got the village idiot & the village villain.

What a pair.

[unfrigginreal]

2. Yeah, anybody that thinks Edwards won hurts us

makes perfect sense. :crazy:

[trumad]

7. Your screen name is what I've been shouting all night

at some of these knuckleheads here on DU!

[Hello_Kitty]

3. He's a damn smooth liar

That's exactly how I'm describing it to my co-workers here on the night shift. I watched the debate in the break room and they asked me how it went when I returned. I said they were both very good speakers and that Cheney did better than Bush. Then I went on to detail some of the lies Cheney told. I didn't declare Edwards the winner. I'll let them see it for themselves in the polls.

[Pepperbelly]

4. Good? What are you smoking?

No matter what test you apply to the debate, Edwards comes out on top. On a purely forensic basis, it wasn't even close. Cheney left massive, specific attacks lay while trotting after inconsequentials. He was bleeding from scores of thrusts that went to the heart of their mendacity, their inhumanity, their greed, their corruption and their incompetence.

Edwards rocked him back so hard with his Halliburton thrust, so concise, so factual, so pointed, that Cheney spent 2 or 3 speaking opportunities on trying to refute it (unsuccessfully I might add) that Edwards responses to the questions went unanswered (remember Israel and Palestine?)

Edwards on style AND substance. Not even close.

[flpoljunkie]

13. Cheney was rattled, seemed defensive, too. He just hid it better than *.

Compared to Bush, he won, but he wasn't debating Bush!

The Washington pundicts may want to call this a draw, but it wasn't, and they know it. Cheney telling lies in a low voice, breathing heavy--ugh!

Edwards kicked his corrupt and incompetent ass!

[0007]

19. John Edwards was so smooth and fast, no one saw the knock out punch

that floored dickhead. It was kind of like the Mohammad Ali and Sonny Liston fight. It was over early.

I was disapointed that Edwards didn't bring up the secrecy of the Energy Papers. But what the fuck! NO ONE is perfect! A lot of material was covered.

[Cha]

29. With all these DUers saying how "good" cheney

was last night..it's really good to see there are some of us who thought Edwards did an awesome job and cheney sucked.

It's not easy to into the den of Immorality and debate Beelzebub!

[Beetwasher]

47. Cheney's "Refutation" of The Halliburton Charges Was Essentially:

"There not true, so there! Go to this website and see for yourself!" And then he directs them to George Soros's website!!! And then, even if someone figures out that it's factcheck.org they're supposed to go to, even that website doesn't support Cheney's lies!

It was pathetic.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. If,by this, you mean

never underestimate the depths to which this Administration will sink, I agree. And it is important to point out all the lies and distortions Cheney spewed from his mouth. Ironically, factcheck.org can help us with this-and it is a great source to use, since even a freeper cannot argue that it is a Cheney approved site.

However, I think Edwards did a great job detailing Kerry's plans for this country, as well as pointing out Cheney's lies. This was a positive thing, and one that gave the average Joe a chance to compare what Bush has done to what Kerry will do.

[fujiyama]

8. It is important

to expose Cheney's lies.

He definetely was more effective than Bush. As much as I despise him, he gave a half way coherant case for why Bush should be reelected. At least, he seemed like he was there all along. Bush zoned out several times.

He still came off like a sneering ass hole.

[orpupilofnature57]

9. Dick was walking the pooch, at best.Gwen ifill's put V P on the

spot with the first mention of halliburton,leaving Edwards free to point out the harmful policies of * and dick shame me.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Cheney was better than the Chimp...

as I would have expected, he is the brains behind the operation after all. That being said, he was much weaker than I had expected him to be. Edwards was a good deal stronger than I had expected also.

All in all, I came away with a sense of a tired, mean, beaten down, old man defending an edifice of lies and a record of failure to a young, dynamic, charismatic man who was aggressive without being mean, and on very solid footing.

In other words, I think Edwards won.

I didn't get a sense of conviction with Cheney's lies. He seemed kind of deflated to me.

[sherilocks]

12. I've emailed several Cheney lies to C-Span Journal

Call in to 202-747-0002

or email [e-mail]

[JNelson6563]

14. One reason to do this

his clarity contrasted with the simian's inability to form complete sentences clearly demostrates the point we know to be true: Cheney is President and Jr's a prop.

The Rethugs can't even be honest about the real order of the names on their ticket.

Julie

[Cha]

30. I thought cheney made bush look real bad

and Edwards look real good!

[mzmolly]

49. EXACTLY Julie!

Cheney is our President. Bush is a mouthpiece.

[snoochie]

15. What the....?

He was repeating himself. Repeatedly. Just talking points. No substance. He may have been less idiotic than shrub, but he was NO better on substance.

He PASSED on a rebuttal. PASSED. At least once. This ... this is just shocking.

He sent people to a website to check Edwards' claims, and said site actually rebuts MORE of his OWN statements.

So, in short... WHATEVER!

[bklyncowgirl]

16. Cheney was good. This makes Edwards performance even more impressive.

Look, Kerry did very well in his debate but the contrast was with a stumbling performance by President Bush.

Cheney on the other hand was well prepared and delivered his points in a convincing manner. Sure alot of his points were out and out lies but most of the time Edwards called him on it.

On the whole I thought it was an excellent debate and that Edwards did us proud.

[NashVegas]

37. Good Way to Look at It

Edwards didn't impress me for the first 2/3 but he definitely got his points in better as the evening went on.

[Mizmoon]

17. The deferred answers, the inability to defend Halliburton,

and his being caught voting against Meals on Wheels and MLK Day - yeah, he was fantastic. :eyes:

[Tight_rope]

18. Yes...he lied real good...but not good enough!

[secular_warrior]

20. Edwards didn't call him out enough on the lies

Edwards went in throwing softballs when he should've been throwing 100mph fastballs.

Most Democrats could've done a better job than Edwards. Cheney is such a criminal and a thug, I don't see what was so hard about it. Edwards should've hammered him like a cross examination on the witness and never let up until he broke.

IMO, Edwards lost, but it's not going to hurt us in the polls. People vote on the presidential matchup, and luckily we have a tough, seasoned pol like Kerry who can hold his own.

[Trailrider1951]

21. Cheney WAS good last night!

In fact, I thought that he won the debate by a nose. All that experience rising to the top of corporate America, where articulate and manipulative insincerity helped a bunch. However, John Edwards held his own with the bastid.

[trumad]

24. and you're basing his victory on what?

[drdon326]

34. Edwards won.....BUT.....

to Joe Sixpack it was a draw...and have no effect on the race.


The VP debate can only hurt the presidential candidate.....Edwards
held his own which in this case is a win.

[opihimoimoi]

22. Cheney is proof he is the real President.....Bush is a front man...a dummy

[Cha]

32. dat true!

All cheney did was make bush look worse than he already did on Thursday's "debate"!

[The Flaming Red Head]

23. His facial expression looked like he had a bad case of hemorrhoids.

Just because you have chapped ass syndrome and manage to fight your way through it without cursing at the entire electorate doesn’t mean that you’re good.



You know he wanted to beat the shit out of Edwards a couple of times during that debate. I'm glad we were all watching so he couldn't. The viewing public was like a collective school marm keeping him in line.

[BootinUp]

25. He spoke in complete sentences

pretty good by this administrations standards.

[bigtree]

26. Cheney did not appear appealing to me

That is my measurement, not my attempt to see the debate through anyone elses eyes (although most polls agree with me). Just the opinion of a dead dog Democrat. I can't bring myself to see anything these counterfeit losers do as successful or good.

[Cha]

27. cheney SUCKED THE BIG ONE

last night!

[Francine Frensky]

28. Of the Four Men, Bush is the clear outlier

Bush sticks out like a sore thumb, if you play "which one of these is not like the others"

I still think the relationship between bush and cheney is just plain bizarre, that our vp is more engaged and intelligent (yes, he's smart, it's just his worldview that is so wrong) than our stupid president. That's just wrong.

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. Cheney lied. Therefore, Edwards won...honestly by honesty.

:hi:

[DemocracyInaction]

33. Perhaps Edwards didn't win BUT Cheney did not win either

I think you have missed that point. Yes, Cheney was strong (compared to Bush anything is strong) but so was Edwards. Cheney failed completely to diminish Edwards or to make him sound unprepared or mature enough, etc. Yes, point out his lies but don't give him credit for winning either. Bascially this was a tie and a tie is a major win for Edwards because Cheney could not destroy him and because a tie means the people think Edwards is just as capable as Cheney in the VP slot. Indeed, let's not get the wrong impression out there but that also includes the fact that Cheney did not bring home the bacon for George.

[Nicholas_J]

35. Cheney was not "good"

Insofar as all he did was repeat the same stock stale old lines that he has been repeating for months.

First the reetition of the "John Kerry has been inconsistant in his stance on Iraq" which pretty much is not accpeted outside of the Republican base since the debates on Thursday.

Repetition of this and trying to link it to "If you vote for Kerry you will not be safe" which was certainly blown away on thursday night as well. The polls that show Kerry either equal with Bush now, or even passing him are a strong indication that many ofthe undecided do not beleive it. We can expect to the wither the Kerry campaign OR the media or both going back to Kerry;s original articles and speeches before the war and even before his signing the authorization to use force to seen that Kerry' stance has been the same from the fist suggestions that we go to war with Iraq. This will come in the last two weeks before the election. Kerry;s op-ed article in September of 2002 is likely to be brought out again, in which he states that just being a bad guy is not reason enough to go to war with Iraq. That before the president goes to war he must prove a connections between AL Qaeda and Saddam, and musty prove that WMD's exist. Only then will war be acceptable. Otherwise we should keep right after Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda and leave Saddam for later, allowing the sanctions to keep him in line. His later speeches after the inspectors were in Iraq go in in the same vein. Osama first, Sadam later (not never).

All that Cheney could do when Edwards presented factswas stae that Edwards had gotten his fact wrong, even when the fact came from the CIA, State Department, Office of Budget Management and so on.


In many ways, Cheney's debate was George Bush's without the grimaces and stutters. There was nothing new.

[goodhue]

36. Absolutely not.

Cheney was evil, not good.
And he performed poorly to boot.

Last night we saw the past versus the future, fear versus hope, and more of the same versus a fresh start.

[redqueen]

38. Yeah, good at managing to become a liability to the * campaign

even though he CAN speak English properly.

His lies are all over the news.

[w4rma]

39. Are you nuts? Even the polls give the debate to Edwards. (nt)

[NashVegas]

41. Body Language is Worth So Much

As someone above pointed out, we are looking at this through the filter of our reality. Joe Six-pack's reality is something else altogether. Joe wants strong and confident machismo and that's exactly how Dickie appeared.

We have to show Joe that Dick was strongly and confidently lying through his teeth.

When I said he was 'good,' I meant it in the way you'd say it when you're watching a very smooth operator. "Aw honey, you're goooooood."

[progressivebydesign]

40. I didn't think Cheney was good.. he came off as a petty asshole.

BIG turnoff! The thing is.. Bush was such a beligerent wacko during his debate, that it was up to Cheney to smooth things over. Instead, he went on the attack, he sneered, he spit, he slouched, he leered. Cheney would have been MUCH better served to have the act he used with Joe Liberman last time... the friendly killer.

Shit, about halfway through, Cheney lost his steam and began slumping, mumbling, and getting paler and paler. He was too angry and was extremely unimpressive.

I didn't think Cheney did well. He lost it by being an asshole, when America was looking for a leader. They were coming in as the underdog from Bush's last debate, and Cheney blew it.

[LuminousX]

42. All I could think of last night was the Daily Show segment

that caught Cheney in his lies.

Cheney has that way of just stating things and making them sound like facts and common sense. "This is the first time I've met you." That doesn't sound like something you would lie about. Yet, it was. "American forces are only taking 50% of the casualities." Nope, reverified, it is around 88%. Cheney's gut reaction is to lie and dissemble. Everytime I thought he made a good point, I just remembered that he is a liar, first and foremost and every 'good point' must be doubted.

He does not have my trust.

[sangh0]

43. Yeah, right!!

And it would be impossible for any Dem who voted for IWR to win the Democratic nomination in the primaries.

More DU "wisdom"

[MallRat]

44. OK. But what if I think that Edwards actually DID win?

Cheney spewed a steady stream of lies, and Edwards called him out on every single one of them (except the "I never met you until tonight" lie, which the media is pouncing on).

That sounds like a win to me.

-MR

[NoPasaran]

45. All that I acknowledge

Is that Darth Cheney lies in complete sentences.

[bloom]

48. I will acknowledge that some will believe Cheney's lies

that doesn't make him "good", nor does it "help" to go around saying he was "good".

[wabeewoman]

50. I wouldn't say Cheney was good

but he was persuasive. I was really angry at him in the beginning for his attacks on Edwards and Kerry. Later, when he was talking calmly, rationally (seemingly) and hypnotically, I could see where people are taken in. He is so confident in his lies. There were a couple of really scary lines when he alluded to be much more forceful militarily that would make effective ads. The man scares me!

[calimary]

51. I can see your point. To the infamous "Joe Six-Pack" who goes with

the cosmetics he sees, cheney probably won - SIMPLY BECAUSE he DID INDEED perform vastly better than bush. Evidently he got the memo about reaction shots. Edwards did, too, for that matter.

My initial reaction, before the spin set in (spin, in this case, GOOD for us because some of the pundits began to realize and point out where cheney was lying, that automatically lost him points) was that it was cheney by a nose - simply because I thought Edwards blew several chances to drive a Sherman tank through the holes in cheney's statements. Edwards was a little too "nice" maybe. Could have gone in for the "kill" several times and left him with scratches when he shoulda decked him outright.

That said, even if I STILL felt it was a slight win for cheney, it's a net loss for the bush ticket. Whatever cheney did that looked or sounded good, solid, steady, informed, together, complete-sentences, no smirking, no hems and haws, it just contrasted like gangbusters with the lox-on-toast job bush did on Thursday night. I concluded that the republi-CONS MAY be cheering, but it's not a smile you see - it's gritted teeth. It just points up how weak the top of the ticket is. I bet many of them went away cheering loudly to cover their angst that cheney SHOULD be president and bush the running mate, rather than the other way around. Most of 'em are probably saying - "shit, NOW it's bush's turn again."

I guarantee you, they're wishing the ticket was flipped (or would that be flip-flopped?).

[no name no slogan]

52. Before Nov 3, cautious optimism beats arrogant triumphalism

Edwards did a good job, but so did Cheney. Cheney lied convincingly and credibly to the American people-- most of whom don't even know they were lied to.

Yes, we should celebrate our victories, but we should do so cautiously. The only REAL victory for us in this whole debacle of an election will be on Nov 3, when the votes are counted.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Cheney was good but here is where he hurt himself

He LIED about two material things that were his strongest points and were debunked almost immediately following the debates...were it not for that, Cheney would have gotten the win for being more paternal...

HE BLEW IT!