U.S. Senate race (OK), Carson (D) adds to his lead

[arcos]

U.S. Senate race, Carson adds to his lead




Support for U.S. Senate candidate Brad Carson (D) continued to increase this week, while Republican Tom Coburn’s support remained steady. Carson’s lead is once again outside the margin of error.

SoonerPoll.com, a public opinion research firm in Oklahoma City, conducted the telephone poll of 553 statewide likely voters for Fox25 in Oklahoma City showing Carson with 44.1%, 37.2% for Coburn and 18.8% undecided. The survey had a margin of error of 4.1%.

<snip>

Coburn’s strongest support is among the youngest group of voters, ages 18-34, while Carson’s support comes from the more coveted end of the spectrum leading with seniors 65 and over. Baby-boomers, ages 50-64 have the highest numbers of undecided voters, although Carson leads with 9 points.

Coburn leads Carson among cross-party voters by 5%, although political observers have noted that Coburn must do better among Democrats to win in a state still dominated by Democratic registration.


<snip>

http://www.soonerpoll.com/soonerpoll.asp?page=&Article_ID=16&AR=AR&ap=NewsArticleDetail.asp&Poll_ID=3&p=ASP\~Pg0.asp

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

1. GO YOU DAMN OKIE DEMOCRATS GO!!!!!

Hey let's do a little shout out with all the Okie Dems giving their own little "hey" here.

How about it? Who are the Okie Dems here, my neighbors to the north?

How's Oklahoma looking? I'm proud to say the only Okies I know are strong, solid Dems (and vets, too!).

[juslikagrzly]

46. Okie Dem here

and pulling for Carson. Those who argue against Carson as too centrist should try living with two far right-wing nutjobs senators (Nickles and Inhofe) for a few years before they start casting stones. Coburn is far worse than Nickles and Inhofe put together.

[JohnKleeb]

47. jeez man I am sorry, good luck with Carson though

[juslikagrzly]

48. Thanks for your kind condolences

Nickles and Inhofe have done for Oklahoma what * has done for the nation. Re-energized the dem party and if we have to start with someone like Carson, so be it. Many state races are close also. If baby steps are required, baby steps it is :).

[JohnKleeb]

50. thats what I think people don't understand

I also know that you guys just got a democratic governor too, we did too here in Virginia after having a decade's worth of republicans, is Mark Warner's a progressive dem's dream, but is he better than Mark Earley? Yes. Hell, maybe other Oklahomans will see that Carson and thus the democratic party have their interests at heart, good luck to the guy, we have two republican senators here too. I hear Inholfe is also retiring.

[Demi_Babe]

2. WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO

[iwantmycountryback]

3. Carson's a DINO

But Coburn is a Rick Santorum, so I guess I'll take Carson.

[KittyWampus]

6. I Actually Took A Shine To Him. He's As Left As He Can Get For OK

at least where he is.

[JohnKleeb]

9. yep and thast what some people dont get

[jefferson_dem]

4. These two went at it on MTP this morning. Sane people will come away from

that debate realizing the freakishness of Coburn. I imagine Carson's numbers will improve even more.

Although Carson is not the most partisan and progressive Dem, his victory will help us retake the Senate this Fall!

[MattNC]

5. Dare I say...

this race is almost locked up for Carson?

[secular_warrior]

7. I hope Carson loses - we need to purge the DINOs we have, not get more

Carson is a DINO who is running on a platform of "how much Bush likes me".

I understand the southern states will only vote for DINOs. That's ok for local and state elections, but NOT ok for a national position like US Senator. Carson would never get along with the rest of the Dems in the Senate. He would always be voting with the Republicans anyway.

I'd rather the real Republican win the seat, instead of the DINO who will just be a thorn in our side like Zell Miller was. I'm SICK of these southern states hanging onto the past - the Democrats are not a conservative populist party anymore and never will be again. The sooner these seats go to far-right Republicans the sooner the Republican party will self destruct because they've moved to far out of the mainstream, hijacked by the same Southern conservative fundamentalism that destroyed the old Democratic party.

[JohnKleeb]

8. so you want to put a guy like Coburn in who is very far right

He'll vote with them often but we need seats where we can get them, if you ever wanna build a majority in the senate, you have to elect people from conservative states or states with opposite party values, think about it man, I bet though they wish he would vote with them, I bet the republicans are glad to have at least one senate seat from Rhode Island with Chafee.

[secular_warrior]

12. Yes - I'd rather the far right Coburn win the seat

I'd rather conservatism show it's true face instead of hiding behind DINOs.

The sooner the radical right south goes to the Republicans, the sooner that party will self destruct.

I'm watching Carlson right now on MTP - he is saying the same Zell Miller shit, that the national party is too far out of the mainstream, that if he is elected he will lead a movement to move the party back to the "mainstream" (far right Oklahoma is NOT mainstream). I say NO. If you are a right winger run as a Republican.

The way to build a TRUE majority is to have a coherent, strong message and target the regions of this country which are receptive to that message. The Republicans learned this 30 years ago. They weren't afraid to abandon their traditional Northeast base in order to strengthen their conservative message and build a conservative majority.

We MUST abandon old strongholds and focus on building a TRUE liberal majority, not simply a majority of "Democrats".

[JohnKleeb]

21. So you want to let the south go the GOP as we build a stronger dem base

out here. :eyes: I don't get it but I understand, we suffer under Bush's policies more than the richer states do.

[secular_warrior]

26. Yes - we must abandon the south in the short term

It will be better for America as a whole in the long term.

Once we build a liberal majority, our message will resonate across America, and eventually liberate the south from their reactionary values.

It is better to do that than constantly holding onto the past - constantly losing to a party which represents the minority in this country, all because we are so afraid of offending old conservative Democratic strongholds.

[JohnKleeb]

29. So our kids should struggle because the dems we had weren't good enough

The dems here in the state of Virginia aren't liberal democrats but they believe in our values and will support us if we pay attention to their issues. A liberal majority, how do you expect to build that by abandonding regions of the country, especially those who have been affected worst by Bush, Carson won't be perfect but he'll be a democrat, and we need to build a senate majority too, that to me is very important.

[secular_warrior]

33. Carson will support the Bush agenda (if Bush wins)

He is even running commercials where he aligns himself with Bush !


Democrats should never abandon anywhere on the local and state levels.

But it is very important that our national message be clear, consistent and MEAN SOMETHING to people. We will never regain the majority if we don't focus on building a majority through message and region targeting. We can't please everyone. Trying to please everyone pleases no one.

[JohnKleeb]

37. A liberal in oklahoma isn't the same as a liberal nationwide

I don't like him kissing Bush's ass, but if we can get that seat in Oklahoma, it will mean something. This party isn't just about liberals.

[juslikagrzly]

45. I agree with you to some extent, BUT

being an OkieDem, please believe me when I say that Carson is actually a breath of fresh air when compared not only to crazy Coburn, but our previous senator Nickles and current rat bastard Inhofe.

Someone posted on an earlier thread that for a Dem to win in Ok, s/he MUST appeal to the center. I'm not normally for centrists (or right leaning dems), BUT it is vital that we get a foot in the door. If you take the progressive/liberal stance in OK that door is slammed in your face.

It feels all good and comfy to push the progressive issues, I'd love to. But politics is also about pragmatism. Carson is playing to his audience. His record in the House is not nearly as onerous as you assume it is. So, put away the idealism for one election and be glad that a strongly repug state has a dem in the lead for a senate race.

[SangamonTaylor]

10. not true.

if the Democrats control the Senate, they control the agenda (for the most part). Because of that, issues that Carson would be more likely to side with the Republicans on have less of a chance making it to the floor or even coming up.

[juajen]

11. Don't forget

With a majority dem senate, we regain control of the committees and the senate. I don't think I like him either, but dem control of the senate would be very important to John Kerry.

[secular_warrior]

13. the benefits of superficial "control" don't outweigh the long term costs

What happens when Carson starts going "Zell" on us ? Even if he's as bad as Lieberman, that's bad enough.

This party has to make it clear it stands for something -- and that begins with standing AGAINST conservatism -- whether it comes from our party or theirs.

[KittyWampus]

15. Same Rationale For Voting Nader. Carson Will Be An Asset

[secular_warrior]

17. It is absolutely NOT the same as the Nader rationale

Nader hates anyone who isn't far-left or as idealistic and utopian as he is - that's not what I'm advocating. Nader probably thinks Kerry is a right winger.

What I'm advocating is a strong, coherent mainstream liberal message from the Democratic party in order to oppose conservatism - NOT a far left message.

Of course we have to move a little right or left depending on region, and HAVE to make our message attractive to the majority. If we haven't done that we're as bad as Nader.

But once we moderate our message so much that it resembles conservatism itself (like Carson does), we've ceased to perform our patriotic duty as the opposition party.

[ButterflyBlood]

25. Carson is not a mainstream Democrat, and not the standard for Democrats

he's a conservative Democrat. But he comes from a VERY conservative state.

Having a few conservative Democrats from conservative states is acceptable and helps us in the long run. Look at the total number we have now. Hardly the mainstream of the party.

[Milspec]

52. Agree

Carson is really not to my taste, but OK is very conservative. I believe re-legalizing cock fighting is also of the Nov ballot.

[Radical Activist]

16. Who controls the Senate will mean everything

That is worth it. Do you want Kerry's Supreme Court nominations to pass, or not? Do you want Kerry's agenda to come up for a vote, or not?
But, in the long run Oklahoma does have an old left-wing populist tradition. It would be nice to see the Democrats expand on that base rather than pandering to conservatives. There is more than one way to win over swing voters and too often I think our party picks the wrong way. Picking Carson is a short term strategy that sacrifices building more long-term support for left wing populism.

[secular_warrior]

18. Why must we grovel for crumbs ?

Mainstream left America is 60% of this country, yet the minority right wing dominates our government. How has this happened ? Because the opposition party has let it. We have let it by letting people like Carson continue to be voted in and continue to cripple our message.

[Mike L]

68. 60% of what country?

Middle America is still conservative.

[ButterflyBlood]

23. Zell Miller is a huge fluke

Carson is not like him at all. Look at John Breaux. He's pretty conservative, but he has been loyal to the party with his time in. Carson is the same. If you would rather have a far right extremist like Coburn than someone like Lieberman who sucks on a few issues, you have your priorities way out of wack.

[secular_warrior]

28. My priorities are to advocate for a real opposition party

which strives to build a true mainstream liberal majority -- not simply a "majority of Democrats".

[ButterflyBlood]

31. If it were possible to have a majority in Congress with only liberals...

then why did 47% of the population vote for that chimp-brained imbecile squatting in the White House? If it were possible to have a majority in Congress with just Paul Wellstones, that idiot wouldn't have topped 30%

[JohnKleeb]

32. Its not possible I hate to say it

and the truth is I agree with people like Wellstone more than I do with the Carsons of the party but we're a big tent party, we should be able to have people like Carson run in rural states if they want to. Its not just about being liberal, our overall values are different than the republican party, we shouldnt punish conservative democrats because they're not good enough. That to me is the same thing as the DLC trying to remove liberal influence from the party, there's a third way I think between the DLC and this run to the left everywhere nonsense.

[secular_warrior]

35. I don't believe in a far run to the left

Nader has failed the American people as much as the DLC.

I believe in a strong, pragmatic, innovative, mainstream liberalism to oppose conservatism.

I believe it is our patriotic duty to be a real opposition party.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Where do I talk about Nader?

Dude we can't just run to the left everywhere, it won't work because of who the people are.

[secular_warrior]

40. call it what you want - left , right or center

if we don't stand up and be the oppositon party to conservative lies we won't be running anywhere soon.

ps. Nader was my example.

[JohnKleeb]

41. ok who do you think would be a good person to run against Coburn

Sorry I lost my cool but it's hard as is to elect democrats out here in Virginia.

[secular_warrior]

42. No problem - I'm not sure who could run against Coburn

Probably someone like Edwards, Clinton or Hollings who can sell a liberal message from the small town, rural perspective.

If the Dems down south don't at least hit on the fiscally responsible liberal economic issues (deficits, trade, unions, taxs cuts for the rich) .. that is completely unacceptable to me. They should be waging class warfare -- that sells with poor people who are suffering ! That has always worked as a wedge issue for Democrats until the DLC came along !

The Dems should start trying to frame the social issues more from a libertarian point of view, like Howard Dean was trying to do.

The point is, the south will never come around to our message and learn the truth about conservative lies if we keep running right wing DINOs. I'd rather the real Republican win in national elections so the right wing agenda can show it's true face to the American people.

[Julien Sorel]

43. The conservatives were the opposition party/ideology

from the time of the Depression until some time in the mid-sixties. It didn't work too well from the standpoint of winning elections and making policy, although I imagine the view from the moral high ground was pretty nice.

Although I agree somewhat with the intent of what you're saying, the fact that you can't seem to flesh it out with something specific beyond "bridging the gap between the DLC and Nadir," tells me there's some kind of problem. I actually think Kerry is about there -- one of the more liberal voting records in the senate, but not too loony to get him beaten across the country.

The Republicans have this problem in California and the Northeast, by the way. They run moderates (Arnold is a perfect example except for the way he got into office) and seem to do fine. When Democrats run moderates, or conservative Democrats, people start howling like starving coyotes.

Any strongly promulgated national ideology is going to drive off people at either end of the political subspectrum, and that's going to cost elections to the party that does a better job of regionalizing its campaigning. If we ran someone a little to the left of Carson, we'd lose in OK, but the Republicans would still have their Specters, their Colemans, their Lincoln Chafees, and so on, picking off seats.

[secular_warrior]

44. Howard Dean + John Kerry + John Edwards = the message that bridges the gap

Howard Dean was able to get many of the Nader people without moving far to the left. He did that by standing up and selling a strong, innovative liberalism to oppose conservatism. Dean is the one who forced the others like Edwards and Kerry to think in a different way.

John Edwards hit strongly on populist/class warfare themes abandoned by the DLC. He spoke of the "two Americas" and the Halleburtons and Enrons. Edwards comes from a small rural southern town, and frames liberalism from an important perspective.

John Kerry said "the American flag doesn't belong to the Republican Party." He is fighting conservatism by refusing to accept their LIES that we are unpatriotic. Liberals fought and died for America on the battlefields of war and on the battlefields of main street protesting for the rights of all. That flag and this country belongs to us also.

Kerry and Edwards have a truly progressive tax plan that doesn't simply raise taxes on everyone (which will never sell with the American people anyway), but cuts taxes for the poor and middle class and makes the rich pay their fair share. Kerry/Edwards looks to alleviate the burden on the poor and middle class by helping to reduce regressive costs such as healthcare.

Put all of this together and you have a strong, mainstream, attractive, coherent liberalism that truly opposes conservatism.

[foo_bar]

53. none of these candidates would win in OK

hell Clark won the primary.

[secular_warrior]

56. If becoming a Repub is what it takes for a Dem to win in the south,

I say no thanks, just go ahead an vote for the real Republican, and suffer the consequences of right wing policies under the real right wing party.

Right wing policies advanced by Democrats only continue to give cover to the right wing agenda in this country.

For this reason, DINOs are more dangerous than Republicans, whose evils can be dealt with in the light of day.

[Julien Sorel]

60. Howard Dean is, from a standpoint of policy,

slightly to the right of Kerry. The only thing innovative about Dean was his rhetoric; he got some of the Nadirites because he opposed the war -- period. He kept them by talking more liberal than his record or program was. You can still see how important the war is to the Deanites by the posts they make on this message board.

As for "opposing conservatism," it takes more than a tax plan. Conservatism, as it appears today, is more about social issues than it is about tax plans.

At any rate, I just read through some of your other posts. I see you hoping that Carson loses to not just a Republican, but an insane Republican, and using the same ridiculous logic that Nadir uses about running the country into the ground so that people will see the real value of progressive ideals. I tend to avoid debating people with a loose screw.

[secular_warrior]

63. it would seem to me that the people with the "loose screw"

are those who will vote for anything with a (D) next to it's name, even if it is virtually indistinguishable from a conservative Republican.

That, my friend, is the definition of insanity.

But then again, it is precisely this DINO mentality which is responsible for where we are at this point.. where this party stands for nothing most of the time, and where one of these fake Democrats can stand up at the opposition's convention and illspeak us to the world.

[secular_warrior]

34. I'm not talking about people like Wellstone

who was/are pretty far left and from a bygone era of utopian 60's style liberalism.

We need a strong mainstream liberal message. There isn't one now. There are only people like the DLC and people like Nader. We desperately need something that bridges that gap. Although I did not support him in the primaries Howard Dean began to address this very effectively and innovatively.

MUCH fewer people would vote for the conservative LIES if there was only a REAL, realistic, innovative, attractive, strong opposition message. We can't begin to sell that message if we are trying to reach BACKWARDS to the old CONSERVATIVE Democrats.

[iwantmycountryback]

71. I agree that's a good thing to build to

But we need a majority. A majority is very crucial and Carson will at least vote with us occassionally as opposed to the far right extremist Coburn. Liberal Dems are just not going to get elected in Oklahoma and we need to take what we can get. When's the last time there was any Dem senator in OK anyway?

[Mike L]

66. This guy won't go "Zell".

I've heard him on issues and I sent him a contribution. It would be crazy to give up this seat when we can win it.

[cire4]

14. Carson is more liberal than he lets on

He has to run to the center-right if he is to win in Oklahoma. Once he wins, he'll vote with the rest of the Democrats.

[secular_warrior]

20. Carson is not running "center-right"

He is running well to the right, and his Republican opponent is running far right.

[Zynx]

59. It's Oklahoma for crying out loud! Try to run a liberal there. See what

happens.

[Mike L]

65. Secular Warrior, you are wack.

Carson will help on important issues. That's better than no help. That's the BEST we can do in OK.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. Carson's a conservative Democrat, but Coburn is a fucking nutcase!

He has actually said he would support executing abortion doctors!

Go Carson!

[secular_warrior]

22. I'm glad Coburn is saying things like that

because it shows the true face of the right wing agenda in this country. It's better for nuts like Coburn to have major roles in the GOP so America can see what they're really about and reject them forever.

[Mike L]

70. right-wingers will never be rejected forever.

This is America. Something will always bring them back.

[tjdee]

36. Yup.

I was thinking damn, that guy is a nut, cleaned up nice and sitting right there on MTP!

[deadparrot]

24. Go, you Dems! Keep it up!

[DaveinMD]

27. again

perfect should not be the enemy of the good. Carson is more conservative than me. But he lives in Oklahoma and votes with Dem leadership on many important issues. He's not remotely like Zell Miller. Clinton was hardly the most liberal candidate to run in 1992. Tom Harkin was. Yet people here love Clinton now.

[JohnKleeb]

30. thank you and you live in a blue state

[angryinoville]

39. I saw Carson on MTP...

It sounds to me like he loves Bush. He's all about the patriot Act. the Medicare bill among other things. Dems should be able to do better than him. Not impressed at all.

[JCMach1]

51. A foreign policy hawk, he is PROGRESSIVE on most

social and ESPECIALLY economic issues.

Carson is NO Zell Miller, so stop saying it! :)

I was glad to hear him clarify his Bush comments which were taken out of context (of course).

Coburn was an utter freakazoid during the debate... He is ***GONE***.

Coburn is toast and will wind up on the same rubbish pile as the Keatings and Steve Largent!!!

[secular_warrior]

58. Yeah, he's the real progressive all right

that's why he's doing everything he can to align himself with Bush and why he said he opposed Kerry's rollback of the tax cuts for the rich.

Sheesh. Some Democrats will support anything if it has a (D) next to it's name. Carson's not even a friggin populist for crying out loud. How the heck could he oppose Kerry's progressive tax policy which cuts taxes on the poor and middle class and makes the RICH pay their fair share? Kerry's economic plan is not a post civil rights liberal social policy -- it's a traditional Democratic policy. Even back in the days when the segregationists supported the Democrats the party was populist on economic issues and would've supported the Kerry economic plan.

I'm sure Dems in Georgia felt confident about Zell but look at what DAMAGE he's doing to us -- especially with moderate Democrats in places like Ohio and Pennsylvania. When this guy Carson is giving the keynote to the RNC in a few years all the party leadership will sit back and sigh to themselves, wondering how oh how such a terrible thing could've happened. And the cycle of fecklessness goes on.

I guess I'll just never understand the mentality of the DINO enablers.

[JCMach1]

61. Carson is not Zell Miller... go listen to Carson or meet him

(if you haven't). He only voted with the Pres. 50% of the time... that doesn't even make him close to a blue dog on voting record.

He is doing what he has to do to get elected!

Perhaps Coburn should use that... this guy will SAY ANYTHING to get elected...

I repeat he IS NOT Zell.

[DeepModem Mom]

49. kick

[ulysses]

54. heh - my parents were telling me about this yesterday.

Coburn sounds like a complete tool. Didn't he say that the Cherokees weren't "real Indians"?

:dunce:

[Hot Water]

55. He'll just be the Dem's version of McCain

Look at all the trouble he causes the Republicans. But his vote has helped pass many garbage Senate bills.

Carson will do the same thing. He will either be a maverick. Or it's his strategy to get elected in a red state. Either way it's a Democrat and he's essential to getting back to that majority.

I wouldn't worry. He will be fine.

[JCMach1]

62. He only votes 50% of the time with the presdent...

check other Congressional voting records for some perspective.

[fujiyama]

57. He seemed

too conservative for my liking, but then I have to keep remembering that this is freakin' Oklahoma where Bush will win the state by over 20 points - no Diebold required to steal this state!

I was really uneasy with him for most of the debate (especially with his enthusiastic support for the PATRIOT Act). I actually like what Coburn had to say about that...but that's when I remember that the guy wants abortion providers executed. He seems like a crazier version of Santorum.

Actually MTP did flash the % Carson has supported Bush. It was 50%, which isn't all that bad considering he's from Oklahoma. I'd have to hold my nose to vote for him, but I would - dems MUST regain the senate as well! It's important to remember that Zell Miller has supported Bush well over 90% of the time.

[kwolf68]

64. Wow

Coburn must really suck if he can't win Oklahoma. That state is probably one of the 5 or 6 most Right-Wing States out there.

[bobbieinok]

69. Coburn on RW radio in Tulsa before he entered repub primary

he said he was called by God to stand up for Christian and American values in this election.....RW host DelGiorno absolutely loved him...DelG' show is at least onehalf sermon

Coburn was the only OK repub elected in 94 who actually kept his promise of serving only 3 terms......Carson won his seatin 2000

this congressional seat had been the great OK liberal Mike Synar's seat......one of those who lost in the contract on america 94 vote....Synar later died of cancer

[Mike L]

67. MoveOn endorsed Brad Carson. That's how I heard about him.

I sent him a contribution. Let's help him out!

http://www.bradcarson.com/