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I'm for single payer, BUT I will also support this bill. It is at least an ADVANCE.

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:35 PM
Original message
I'm for single payer, BUT I will also support this bill. It is at least an ADVANCE.
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 01:04 PM by RBInMaine
Compared to what we have now and as imperfect as what Congress is offering, it is at least an ADVANCE from which to build, and it would drive a stake into the hearts of the RePukes. As Grayson says, we MUST seize this opportunity to get an advance, save some lives, and send the death knell message to the PUKES. We must get a bill passed, and this is a good first step. It will not be the last step. Get aboard, let's have a forward advance, and continue to build in the future. You can never make the ideal the enemy of the better. I wish we could have single payer, but that leap just isn't possible now. Even Kucinich concedes this. A bill with some form of public option IS possible, along with some other needed healthcare system reforms. Now is not the time to turn an opportunity for a major political win and an advance for the nation into a defeat because some are unwilling to accept anything short of an ideal bill. Now is the time to gel on this, get something at least half decent done (remember, this is Washington we're talking about here), stick it to the PUKES, and then live to advance even further another day. We will get there, but it takes a very long time. This at least is an advance. I am going to fight hard for taking it.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. In some ways, the "psy-ops" benefits against the righties, GOPpers and Teabaggers
...may be the bill's biggest benefits.

The other bills it will allow us to pass (?) in its wake -- not just health care.

Always figured we'd get -- at best - a shitty bill out of the process. But perhaps, just perhaps, this will in face help move that "process" at least a millionth of an inch, as the saying goes, in a more humane, functional direction...
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Well, maybe more than a millionth of an inch. & it's not all shitty. C'mon now.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Given the fecklessness in the face of oncoming environmental collapse, I'm not sure its otherwise
we have two parties here of course: A spineless one, and an evil one.

Neither is getting the job done...

Though the spineless party will occasionally "risk all" by paying lip service to something vaguely visionary...
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's a Foot in the Door that has been Locked Up Tight until now.
And that foot in the door is only way that Single Payer ever had a prayer.

This is the beginning.

:patriot:
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. YES, thank you so much. Sometimes a "foot in the door" is the best we can get for now and should
take it. Then you fight further next time, and we WILL ! This is just the beginning. But at least it is a good beginning. There is a lot in this bill to applaud. Even if it ends up being an
opt out, I can still support that because then the governors and state legislatures will feel the grassroots pressure to keep it, and the RePUKES will like complete ASSHOLES when they try to kill something a big majority of Americans want even with an opt out. Trust me, Snowe and Collins will be on the shit list bigtime in Maine over this. It will KILL the PUKE PARTY up here.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. To the glass-half-empty crowd, I can only tell you that you are beyond reality. Please get a grip.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. I disagree.
Single payer won't happen step by step. If we allow politics to keep influencing health care step by step then you have to expect steps BACKWARD. That is the way every social program moves.

Every social program was created with the hope of future incremental improvements, and have those improvements ever happened with any program?

Only the Pentagon ever gets incrementally more every year.

The only way were going to ever get single payer is if our politicians had the courage and discipline to insist upon it now. It can't be a decision left for someone else some time in the future. Either a politician supports it now, or they don't support it at all.

If you really think that republicans, and blue dogs, and the army of lobbyists and corporate interests are going to let health care expand in the future into More than this bill allows then, I'm sorry, you're naive. Whatever we get is going to be the best it will ever be, and then it is going to get attacked constantly until it gets scaled back through a thousand small cuts.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
37. yes it has
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. It really hasn't been locked up tight before
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 02:02 PM by Oregone
Hell, they could of passed some flavor of this long ago and settled, but it was determined not to even be "enough" to start with when the political spectrum was a bit more balanced (now, those in the "center" would of been those on the "right" in the past).

Nixon introduces a very similar proposal while president, and Ted Kennedy countered with a single payer system deeming it inadequate. Eventually, Kennedy compromised with the http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19740403&id=rLMNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OHMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3959,1130817">Kennedy-Mills bill. This could of also been passed, but the progressives and unions felt the following 1974 election would of boosted the chances of a single payer bill passing, so they passed on it (in retrospect, everyone should of lined up behind Kennedy-Mills).

But what I am illustrating, is that this type of a bill wasn't impossible till now. In fact, it was very possible and the position of the right; an even more progressive bill was possible at times. In the end, holding out did backfire in history. But, what they were trying to improve was quite a bit better than this, and this was essentially what the liberals were fighting against. This may be far too little to "settle" on if people start examining historic bills and the political spectrum outside the immediate post-Bush context (where the right absolutely dominated the debate, making any dissension appear as "leftist").
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. So, you're citing two prior attempts, two failures.
We agree, it has been possible before and not successful.

And this is by no means yet a done deal, but it's clearer than ever that this time that foot is going to be in the door.

And yes, a cracked open door is far from what we really need and deserve, but it's more than we've had during my lifetime.

:thumbsup:
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Pretty much. Should be enough for a little perspective.
:)

Im seriously starting to wonder if the chess approach isn't a better idea: throw out a real good bill the public loves and scapegoat the GOP for killing it. Then, enter the elections with that momentum, and bring it home thereafter. Unfortunately, they started from such a weak position that the GOP could claim the moral highground for blocking the mandates and government handouts (subsidies).

Passing this bill isn't going to end the crisis (it may change it or make it more tolerable). So no matter what happens, the fight goes on. This may or may not make the future fight easier
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. There is no bill to support, unless you are talking about the current House version
There are many specifics we don't know about the Senate Bill that Reid plans to introduce. We don't know how many Democrats will refuse to vote for cloture of a Republican filibuster of it. We don't know how hard President Obama will fight to prevent a Republican filibuster from stopping Reid's version. We don't know what compromises will be made to Reid's version to get something out of the Senate. We don't know what the conference committee bill will look like or how both Houses will react to it when it is finalized.

I do know this. Without a full court press public push in defense of a real Public Option we won't get one. Those who oppose it must be shamed in public and the President will need to join in, along with all of us.

That is the flaw in the logic of backing the current health care reform effort. It is on track to be derailed.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I am talking about the House version, and the Senate will get cloture or go reconciliation.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Agree. We have to start someplace
Even baby steps, just get out of the rut that insurance companies are the only ones calling the shots. Let get American used to the idea that profiting from illness and misery is not the only way to run a health care system.

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thanks SO MUCH ! Yes, we have got to start somewhere. I'm with Grayson on this !
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Oh yes, of course. FORCING us to do business with the profiteers
--will make them change their minds and act nice. What bullshit.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. I am really, really wanting to feel the same way....

and I do see rather significant improvements to reassure the senior community.

But can someone place alleviate my concerns regarding mandates? I've been uninsured for nearly 10 years, am self-employed, and the idea of being REQUIRED to pay for something that could add even another $200 to my very tight budget is rather terrifying.

:shrug:

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Subsidies and the public option are possibilities for you.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. for one person, middle income of about 43K, the out of pocket costs
for premiums alone are up to 12% of income. Then add the deductibles and copays up to a max of 5K also. Is that affordable? I think not. Subsidies run out at about 43K for a single person.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
34. Nonsense. Read the fine print. If the deficit is too high--
--the subsidies get slashed but the mandate stays.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sadly it no longer matters what you or I support, we're just spectators at a carnival. n/t
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AnOhioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. +1
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
40. +1
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
43. I believe that's been the case all along
It's been a helluva show though hasn't it?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. Fuck it. Let a filibuster kill it
Edited on Sat Oct-31-09 01:49 PM by Oregone
Blame it on the Republicans and come back with a better bill after the 2010 elections. After all, everyone looooves chess

(for this to work effectively, they need to strengthen the bill to force a filibuster and have the moral high ground during the fallout)
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. we sure need a better bill!
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm with you. It's a worthwhile bill.
Though I do find it particularly annoying to have to settle for what's taking shape when we have a 60-seat Senate caucus. If we had only 52 seats, I'd be fairly impressed. But, that doesn't mean saying to hell with a modest but worthwhile public option, let alone the entire bill, out of puerile pique.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. it's some health INSURANCE reform, not health CARE reform.
We can do so much better.

It's not even affordable for middle income people who pay out of pocket!
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. The more I hear from Grayson the more I like him.
We gotta start somewhere.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yep, he smacked down Big Ed. "We can make good better and make better best".
And, BTW, just saw your locked thread.

I agree.

I hate seeing shit like this on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8725180

:thumbsup:
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Thank you.
Sometimes my anger boils over.
In no way do I think Pres Obama is perfect but I think he's a good man who is doing the absolute best he can to get this country back on the right track, and when I hear all the mean-spirited shit tossed his way from people who wouldn't know a decent man if they tripped over him... well

Let's just say I'm sorry I let them get to me.
And I'm sorry DU doesn't do something about them.
Too many good DUers have left because of the shit. :(
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. A shit sandwich is not good. Robbery at gunpoint can't be improved.
Stop cheerleading wiping out my discretionary income, OK?
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WeCanWorkItOut Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. It could be a major roadblock, rather than an advance
It gives too much to special interests,
does nothing to increase education,
or decrease the monopoly power of hospitals,
doctors, drug companies, imaging, etc.
And it takes much too much from Medicare.
Too much pain.
We could do so much better.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. Just one more massive transfer of wealth to the top.
We are positioning an industry that has killed a million people over the last 20 years through denial of care in charge legally of gate keeping health care for all americans. And we are doing this after watching them dump millions of dollars into our representatives coffers and getting ex employers into key aide positions, and after reading article after article of how they have been planning to do just this for the last two years.

We are also, through faith, believing the government will enforce the laws that attempt to stop the worst ins. practices even though the so called "rule of law" can't be applied to torture, illegal wiretapping, and the huge swindle on wall street.

Given the abusive behavior and outright crimes of the health care industry and private ins. common sense would dictate they should be the last and weakest player in this whole reform debacle. But no, we put them in charge and hope against hope we can fix it down the road after we've substantially increased their stranglehold on all of us.

To add insult to injury the country directly to our north is light years ahead of us and looks on in disbelief at our collective stupidity.

This is the insurance company's bill, bought and paid for. If you think it will be improved upon in the coming years that improvement will be in the ins. companies best interests. They will own us.


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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. +1. could not agree with you more.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. A public option that is designed to fail. A huge advance for the insurance industry.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. "It is at least an ADVANCE." ??
I can't help but think of the seasonal Lemming migrations when you state "It is at least an ADVANCE." I am reasonably certain, given the number of lemmings involved, that there would be some who would ask (of whatever other lemmings are in charge), "Why are we doing this? Is this really a good idea?"

Given the fact that a great number of lemmings go hurtling to their deaths, or otherwise perish, during these seasonal rodent stampedes, it seems quite reasonable for the lemming proletariat to question the lemming leaders regarding the wherefores and whys of such lethal mass movements. Yet, each year these lemming hordes repeat the same disastrous act that killed so many of their kin just the year before.

What must be the compelling advice that the lemming leaders repeat, yearly, when all the Enlisted Lemmings cock their heads to the side, squint at their Lemming officers and ask, "Oh, yeah? You sure about this? Seems to us that this is the wrong way to go! This isn't what we started out to get. This isn't in our game plan."


Two things are certain:

1)Whatever answer is given by the Lemming officers, it works every time.

2)Whatever goal the lemmings start out with each year, they always fail to make it.


Considering these two givens, I wonder if the final answer given by the Lemming leaders is not something like "It is at least an ADVANCE.". And, for whatever inexplicable reason, the Lemming Army instantly forgets their historical 0-28,500 yearly success record while using the "Advance" advice and rushes headlong to plunge over the cliffs.

Perhaps the Lemmings have simply forgotten that the purpose of having goals is to achieve them? If so, let us hope that we in the US prove to be human rather than Lemmings because, if so, we might learn from both experience and logic, and avoid repeating disastrous strategies.

I have grown quite tired of hearing our leaders repeat the mantra "Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good." Why? Because such advice counsels us all that there should be no political or moral absolutes. That advice, when followed, leaves everything to be ground out in the sausage-making process of drafting and passing laws and, thus, values the results solely upon the basis of perceived political advantage (i.e., "it would drive a stake into the hearts of the RePukes.") When we resort to that type valuation then we become worse than the GOP.

Why? Because we then abandon the concept of legislating on the basis of what is right and what is wrong. Indeed, the GOP constantly uses this "good" vs. "bad" choice against us and does so successfully. But the difference between their "good" and "bad" and our own is that what they perceive as "right or wrong" is nearly always based solely upon their own selfish interests and motives, while we Democrats (hopefully) put the Common Weal and General Welfare of our nation and fellow citizens above our own selfish interests.

If their (the GOP's) "rights and wrongs" wind up hurting other Americans outside their own selfish circles, then they fail to see that as a "wrong". Instead they see it as something that is simply "unfortunate" and, probably, "unforeseen". The trashing of the Appalachians by sawing off the mountaintops for coal or filling up the Tennessee Valleys with toxic sludge, while endangering the local citizenry, are cases in point).

Indeed, GOP-touted Free Enterprise Capitalism, uses "corporate persons" to create profit for shareholders while shielding those same shareholders from individual legal responsibility arising from any illegal acts of the "corporate person". And all the while these "corporate persons" allow shareholders to amass unlimited profits while limiting shareholder losses to the amount actually invested.

The GOP sees nothing "bad" or "wrong" with having a corporation that, in the pursuit of profit for its owners, just happens to ruin the homes and environs of the humans who live in proximity to these disasters. After all, that "corporate person" is just trying to make a profit. And, unlike humans, the only "corporate sin" is a failure to make a profit.



So, do we rationally thinking Democrats really believe there are no areas where "the perfect vs. the good" meme is simply a stupid, if not immoral, stance to take?


How about the issue of woman's suffrage? Should we have compromised on that? How about on the Civil Rights Act? Should LBJ have given the Right Wing a "phase-in" period on, say, poll taxes for, say, 50 years in order make that epic legislation easier to pass?

To make this question, in regard to "the perfect vs. the good" meme, an absolute black and white choice, let's look back on the issue of slavery.

What if Lincoln and the Republican Party, in order to make Abolition more palatable to the South and to allow for a "bipartisan effort" to avert the oncoming American Civil War, had offered to allow for the "phasing in" of Abolition over (say) 40 years, with slavery finally ending in the South onJanuary1, 1900. After all, that also would have been "at least an ADVANCE."

Another ADVANCE might have been introducing Abolition by forbidding the birth of African-Americans (or anyone, for that matter) into the condition of slavery, but with the proviso that those already in servitude would remain so. That proviso might well have been justified with the reasoning that the freeing any of those already in bondage would make the US guilty of seizure of the "personal property" of its citizens, even if that "personal property" was comprised of other human souls.

In such a compromise, Abolition would come slowly but surely. Both North and South would claim "It is at least an ADVANCE" and both could claim, loudly and proudly, that "No man, woman or child will ever again enter into slavery on the soil of these United States".

Sounds good, doesn't it? And it would have been an advance, wouldn't it? But, if that bipartisan option had actually been available to them, the South might well have entertained such a compromise with the North. And the institution of slavery would finally have had a stake driven through its heart. And that would have been a "good" thing.

But we are looking at the issue of "the perfect being the enemy of the good".

Obviously, such an ending of slavery should be considered a "good" thing, if imperfect. But a compromise that ended slavery via such a gradual process, though guaranteeing that "No man, woman or child will ever again enter into slavery on the soil of these United States", would have been so imperfect that it would have been an eternal embarrassment to our nation. Consider the down side to the bargain.

If the Congress of 1860 had struck such a bargain and passed bipartisan legislation which, by definition, must be a "good" thing for ending the institution of slavery in the manner above, it would also have provided an historical legacy which would have shamed our nation for decades, if not centuries.

How so?

Though a compromise such as the one above might well have entirely prevented the Civil War and its half million attendant deaths, it would also have assured thatevery single individual who was born a slave would remain one until death. Now wouldn't that be a legacy for us all. The last born slave of, say, 1860 would have died by 1970, at the latest.

Now picture a USA where most baby boomers would have had grandparents who were slaveowners (or could have been, if they wished to be). And that would be the price for insisting on legislation that is "perfect" rather than simply "good" or "good enough".

The pending bill Health Care bill in the House may have some good elements in it but it is nothing like what it should be and we all know that.. sadly. To push, as you seem to be doing, for a bill that is certainly not perfect, and hardly even beneficial to the general populace, merely to take "an opportunity for a major political win and an advance for the nation", requires a LOT of self-delusion.

It would be better for all of us to ask ourselves how we stand to benefit from this bill, if at all. To read the main points and see that the insurance industry has complete control of this process of legislating. There is no voice of the people in the proposed laws, at all. The bill is a farce.

I've grown tired. But the points I made are there. And this is simply a black and white issue. The legislation which will be voted upon is either "good" or "bad".

And though you say "It will not be the last step", you are wrong. When the industry has the power, as it does at this point, to make us entertain these cobbled together bits and pieces as if there was some comprehensive reform, has guaranteed that they have the power to draw a line in the sand for the American public cross. And they have done so!

There is no justification for an industry to add 35% overhead for profit, lobbying, ads, etc. when a single payer can cut that 35% to nothing. And do so fairly. When each citizen has no public option available to them to choose from, no single payer system available, and an agenda set by corporate health pirates, it is time to get smart, not deluded into thinking "This is the best we can get".

I suggest we ask the Lemming Kings to give us what we wished for initially, or tell us why not. We want Universal Coverage, public option, single-payer system. Let the Lemming Kings tell us why they can't deliver. And, regardless of why that is, we need to get a new bunch of LemmingLeaders.





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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. More weasely bullshit is not the answer. Kill it. nt
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-31-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Agreed
:thumbsup:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
32. Mandatory private insurance is a shit sandwich
Nothing else in the bill justifies it.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
35. Fuck writing discrimination against the old into law!
I'm fine with less than ideal. A shit sandwich is NOT acceptable, though.
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quantass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
38. I've been very critical of all this -- wishing there was more -- but YES you are right.
I've slammed the president for not trying harder, slammed democrats to caving, etc but in the end i came to realize that America does not work by sudden change but by small steps. And i am starting to realize that about Obama....deep down i think he would like to make big changes but understands the reality of America and the impossibility of trying that...and so he is doing the next best thing to lay the foundation for a better america in the future. One sad truth though about Obama is that he seems to want to make all sides happy...that includes corporate America. And so he is reluctant to say put strict regulations on the financial industry out of fear that they will hate him. That annoys the hell out of me because i was hoping he was 100% for the people so other interests could go F themselves...but in the end it seems this is a character trait and a strategy of his that he believes gets things advancing. Looking at what Obama has accomplished so far in just under a year in office and it is quite impressive....none of it has been perfect (and in some cases, disastrous) but yes, overall, America has advanced forward.

So, bite my tongue, i will accept whatever bill is passed in congress and pray for the rest of the current Americans who will still die with hopes that future ammendments will save many others.
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
39. pouring $$ into insurance and big Pharm is NOT an "ADVANCE" SIMPLE AS THAT.
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
41. If it WERE an advance, I might agree with you.
But mandating private insurance while not providing even a reasonable facsimile of competition via a public option is no advance, it is several massive steps backwards, and it's not going to help anyone, most especially those that the public option was meant to help in the first place.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-01-09 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
45. it's an "advance" for insurance industry and big pharma.

it's an absolute travesty of a reform.
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