Is There ANY Evidence That the TANG Memo is a Fake?

[On the Road]

Every argument I have seen I have seen debunked:

- Proportional Spacing unavailable in 1972: Not true

- "Th" superscript unavailable in 1972: Not true

- Typewriter too expensive: Probably IBM Executive, not Composer

- Font is Times New Roman: Font is not TNR (different "4", "o", etc)

- Font was created in early 80s: Available since 1931 (even if it were TNR)

- Memo created in MS Word: Irregular bottom line and evidence of wear indicate a typewriter, not a laser printer.

- Secretary said they were fake: NO, she said she didn't type them.

-CBS and original source admitted problems: No, they referred to the fact that others have contested them.

When all this is added up, I don't see much of a case for their being forgeries at all.

Sorry to extent the furor, but am I missing something? Why are so many people jumping on the bandwagon that they are questionable? If all the rebuttal points were known at the beginning, would it even have been an issue?

[Catfight]

1. Is there anyone who saw AWOL W in the Guard yet too? n/t

[2Design]

2. only way they can prove it = come up with the originals = Bush

will be in worse shape per that secretary

[w13rd0]

3. Not only did the secretary say she didn't type them...

...SHE SAID SHE'D TYPED MEMOS WITH THE SAME CONTENT.

Where are THOSE MEMOS?!?! Did they miss something in the scrubbing?

[papau]

4. I agree - Wash Post/NBC/ABC just like to say they were not wrong

even when their "questions" have been answered.

Time for another 60 minutes to explain how true the stuff CBS exposed really is.

I'd say the Sunday after the 3rd debate?

:-)

[papau]

8. BTW - the Olympia typewriter Secr says she used did proportional?

I think it may have been a competitor of the Executive with the same abilities.

[Beetwasher]

5. Well, They Certainly Were NOT Done on MS Word (Which docs?)

That much is certain. Now, whether or not they are forgeries is another matter. They COULD be, but if they are they were done on a typewriter and so far, the only significant evidence in favor of forgeries is the Secretaries account that she didn't type them. That's it and it's far from convincing evidece.

Now I have a question: Which docs are being alleged as forgeries? All of them or just the CYA memo? Anyone know? Did the secretary say she didn't type ANY of the memos or just the CYA memo?

If it's just the CYA memo, then I'm even further convinced they're legit and that Killian typed it himself to, well, Cover His Ass. If it's the other memos too, he or someone else still could have typed them as back ups.

[Warpy]

6. Nobody has contested the content of those memos

and that is the thing that should be emphasized over and over again.

Who knows whether they were typed at a later date, from memory? Who knows if Killian typed them after hours on Mrs. Knox's typewriter, to be part of his CYA file, something she confirmed was locked in a desk drawer in his office?

The important thing is that nobody in the White House has contested the fact that Idiot got into the guard as a favor and skated through the Guard through family pressure and was able to walk away from the Guard because nobody wanted to annoy his powerful family by prosecuting him.

(Of course, the other real story is why he was demoted from F-102 pilot to trainers. Was he impaired? Were other men refusing to fly with him? Was there a crash or near crash? THAT is what seems to have been scrubbed from his records, and it would be fascinating as hell to know why.)

[Vincardog]

9. Why not talk about the FACTS of the memos?

[prouDem]

12. Exactly, typical GOP strategy

They can't refute the charges, so they simply call everyone a liar and make up stories.

[Joylaughter]

7. Excellent work, ribofunk

Your logic would prevail in a nation that has a free press.

[karnac]

10. The problem

is that nobody(somebody PLEASE clear this up if im wrong) has been able to reproduce this memo on a circa 1972 typewriter. Particularly the spacing sideways/down. I think the fonts have been proven to have existed. Still,technical arguments don't matter if it can't/hasn't be done. Even CLOSE would be nice.

As for computer duplication(post 1972), it's been duplicated fairly closely though nobody really gotten the font 100% right. In any case, you could alway make up your own font. Just takes time.



That being said, it's pretty clear * was AWOL and a slacker. This whole memo business has taken the eye off the REAL issue.

Karnac.

[Qutzupalotl]

14. You'd have to bend over backwards to get close on a computer.

You'd have to be an expert forger and leave NO traces of forgery. You'd have to know that you were okay using a "th" key on a typewriter that was used in 1972. You'd have to be able to hide all traces of cutting and pasting the signature, and apparently making only one copy on an early 70's Xerox. And you'd have to know the details of actual events that Killian knew and his sentiments about them. I don't think anyone in his circle is that good a forger.

The statement you made about a computer duplicating it fairly closely is false. Zoom in on what was done and you'll see glaring imperfections.




As rocknation pointed out, the baseline shifts alone cast doubt on the computer generated forgery theory. Combined with the alterations of each letter, which would have to be done manually by an expert on a computer, but anybody could do on a typewriter, and you have to go with the simpler theory. Killian signed the memos himself, regardless of who typed them. The signatures have been authenticated, you know.

On edit: If you can find me a vintage 1972 Olympia typewriter, I'll be more than happy to give it a shot. I bet I can do better than anyone who is using a computer. And just an aside: That "expert" Mr. Newcomer is a liar. (Not you, karnac; I mean the guy cited in the WP hit piece.)

[karnac]

15. I have no doubt the typehead is mechanical as you say.

This is where I think both sides of the issue may be wrong.Actually it surprises me it's hasn't been brought up

The one thing that is ignored by ALL is that a circa 80's mechanical printer might be involved. PArticularly a daisywheel printer with the right typehead. This solves all problems of the issue.

the the first problem that is solves is the actual font. that way you get the right letter imprint AND the obvious baselime problem of a slightly dropping character. the mechanical flaw.

the second problem it solves the the near perfect spacing. since they are belt and electro servo driven, you can come DAME close to WYSIWYG spacing.

the third problem it solves is availability. there were millions of OLD electro mechanical printers still around. In fact, there is a warehouse near me that is rough 1/4 full of all printers from the eighties and nineties. Just can't get rid of them. I picked one up for a couple dollars a few years ago when my inkjet died. didn't last long but it worked like almost new while it did.

Am I right? I think so. But not worth proving. it doesn't give me the answer we all want.

So riddle me this, how come all activists haven't even come close to duplicating the memo on an old typewriter? There must be 10's of thousands that must have tried by now. And they would be heroes we all could cheer.

I think the answer is obvious.

We all know the contents of the memos are true. But still most likely forged.

Karnac

[Qutzupalotl]

17. Like I said, show me a 1973 Olympia typewriter

and I'll show you a memo that matches (after you give me a few minutes).

But try finding one on eBay. That's my point! Neither can anyone else.

You don't have to go into the 80's at all. A 1973 typewriter can do all those things, just like Knox said hers did.

Computers, on the other hand, make each letter the same. Typewriters make each letter slightly different with each impression. I see this phenomenon in the documents.

Therefore, if it's a forgery, the person is an expert at forging who leaves no traces of cutout signatures, paints each letter individually, distresses the copy exactly like a 70's era Xerox and somehow knows Killian's thoughts. It gets ridiculous after awhile.

Killian typed them.

[0rganism]

16. Funny thing about your overlay picture

After I look at it for a while, regular text starts to look blurry. It's like my eyes wiggle around trying to make it go together, and don't stop right away after I'm not looking at the image. It's Annoytainment! :)

[dansolo]

21. The forgery claim was that the memo could easily be created in Word

Not only that it could be created in Word, but with the default settings. Why hasn't anyone in the media disputed that claim? I printed the CBS PDF document, allowing Acrobat to scale it to print on a single letter sized page. I did not other manipulations to the memo. Then I recreated the document using Word. I was able to get a very close match with the following settings:

11pt Times New Roman
12pt spacing after paragraphs
1.5" margins

I then printed out both documents and overlayed them and held them up to a light, which is the simplest way to initially verify a match. It is immediately obvious that neither the fonts, not the spacing, match. The document may be fake, but it was not created using Word.

[kestrel91316]

23. A theory........................

somebody (Rove??) got ahold of the original docs, retyped them with just enough questionability in format that they could be "exposed" as "fakes". This then makes everyone think the entire contents are also fake. The secretary said the content was true, but the docs looked suspicious. So an attack on Bush gets squashed, and makes a longstanding enemy (Rather) look bad for good measure. The Dems wind up looking like they faked up docs. Rove wins again.

[Gregorian]

11. Until Bush presents the "real" documents, we can assume these authentic.

He admits guilt by not proving he's innocent. This is one of those situations where that, I believe, is the case.

I say we move on to the next subject.

[rocktivity]

13. Thanks for putting all of the "evidence" in one place

How con-veeeeeee-nient, LOL!

But seriously, I'm particularly glad you included the "bottom line" ("baseline" is the technical term)--I've only seen it mentioned once on DU.

In Photoshop, I magnified the PDFs of the memos and drew in some baselines. In computer generated-text, the baseline is consistent. Though the memos had obviously been copied or faxed and the characters had fuzzy edges, the baseline of each character moved up and down like horse on a merry-go-round. It's probably the result of tiny shifts in the paper each time it was struck when the original was typed.

:headbang:
rocknation

[A-Schwarzenegger]

18. Is there no typewriter of the type the memos

were typed on still around? Dont they have typewriter
museums? .... And WHEN is BURKETT going to get his ass
out front and TALK and SHOW what he's got. If he's
got the damn originals and is sitting on them waiting for
the perfect moment, hey, Bill, IT'S HERE!!

[TryingToWarnYou]

19. Faxed from Kinkos in Abilene presents a problem

[moondust]

20. Not really.

I don't believe there is anything saying the documents faxed from Kinkos are CBS's originals (which could have reached CBS by U.S. mail or hand carried to a meeting or whatever). As soon as CBS receives the originals (original to them anyway) they are likely to make copies, file the originals away for safe keeping, and then work strictly from the copies, sending or faxing copies around for verification, comment, etc.

[Name removed]

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