Bush *WAS* authorized to wear the ribbon.

[Walt Starr]

I just received a copy of AFM 900-3 describing the wear of awards dated November 20, 1969. In this manual, wear of the Air Force Outstading Unit Award is described as being identical to the wear of the Presidential Unit Citation (previously the Distinguished Unit Citation).

Under the section describing the PUC, it reads as follows:

(b) The ribbon is worn as a temporary part of the uniform by each person who is not entitled to permanently wear the ribbon ((a) above) because he was not present with the unit in the action cited, but is subsequently assigned to the unit. The temporary wear of the ribbon is optional and it may be worn only for the duration of the person's assignment to the unit.

This settles the matter once and for all.

[grasswire]

1. so in the picture.....

....was he assigned to the unit?

That's the question, right?

[Walt Starr]

2. Yes, he was assigned to the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron

which had received the award for the period covered between February 1, 1965 and March 31, 1966.

Ergo, Bush could, at his option, wear the ribbon so long as he was a member of the unit.

[goclark]

60. Fantastic job Walt !

The Bush camp doesn't care if they tell the truth or not.
We always seek to find the truth whereever it may lead us.
We are such classy people!

This is what I will continue to tell people...

" Bush wore ribbons HE DID NOT EARN!"

I have no problem at all saying that,over and over again.

KKKKarl taught me that trick and it seems to work for them. :)

[johnnie]

3. You did good Walt.

[Carni]

4. But the unit wasn't assigned the ribbon until 75 right?

So how the hell would he be entitled to wear it before his unit had received it?

[Carni]

5. But the unit wasn't assigned the ribbon until 75 right?

So how the hell would he be entitled to wear it before his unit had received it?

[Walt Starr]

8. That was from volume 2 of the AFP 900-2

Volume 1 of AFP 900-2 listed the unit as having received the award for February 1, 1965 through March 31, 1966, so under this regulation, bush had the option to wear the unit award.

Sort of a weasel way to pad the fruit salad, but within the regulations.

[Carni]

39. OK I get it now

You did a great research job nonetheless.

[CityDem]

59. Thanks for your hard work

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Something will eventually stick to AWOL.

[physaf]

72. thanks for checking this out

no harm in doing so.

[Must_B_Free]

6. Saw that coming...

sorry walt.

[sonicx]

7. its ok, we still have AWOL and kitty. :) nt

[Jackpine Radical]

26. AWOL, Kitty, 28 pages, and Yellowcake.

[Dems Will Win]

41. These issues have distracted all of us

We should focus on:

The Coming Draft
Domestic Issues
THe Lost War in Iraq and Afghanistan

[gauguin57]

44. 12 Baghdad kidnappings ... 11 PNAC neocons ... 10

flip-flop positions ... 9 Saudi buddies ... 8 bankruptcies per minute ... 7 days between most people and econcomic disaster ... 6 Iraqi deaths per hour ... FIIIVE AWOL documents ... 4 right-wing networks ... 3 French insults ... 2 fallen towers expolited ... AND a bio by Kitty Kelley in a pear treeeeee.



(These numbers are obviously not correct. Just havin' a little pre-holiday fun).

[IdaBriggs]

9. Good work, Walt! It is good that we know the truth! nt

[grasswire]

10. Walt's a bulldog!

Follow the truth, wherever it goes.

A real lesson to all those who shape info to fit their wishes.

Take a look, freepers. This is what patriotism is all about.

[Walt Starr]

11. Once I knew the truth beyond any doubt whatsoever

I damn sure wasn't going to keep it to myself!

I've passed it along to everybody in the media who has been asking me questions about it, too.

I'll tell you one thing, though, this is not the end of me researching issues about these criminals.

[spanone]

19. Good Work Walt Starr

Thanks for your hard work:yourock:

[KoKo]

20. Thanks for seeing this through Walt.. folks like you dogging a story are

what we need more of to put truth out when there are questions.

:yourock:

[gcomeau]

25. One thing I'd like to see...

>I'll tell you one thing, though, this is not the end of me
>researching issues about these criminals.

Is someone seriously look into the changed pilot aptitude score on Bush's records. I mean, at first glance:

1. The score was obviously changed. One score has been scribbled out and a second (the 25) written in it's place. Anyone here think it was changed downward as opposed to bumped up to get it above the point where it would have absolutely disqualified Bush from a slot?

Didn't think so.

2. I don't know about 1968, but the regs right now say you're not allowed to retake the test for 180 days, and if that held then there's no way the change was from a retest since any retest would have been possible only after he had already been accepted as a pilot. A little too late to be trying to qualify. If it wasn't changed from a retest, then why was it changed?

3. The changed score appears to be initialed by "RJI" which almost has to be the test control officer who signed the bottom of the score sheet, Ralph J Ianuzzi, so if he can be tracked down some questions could be asked.

4. I know the current guidelines say the minimum pilot aptitude score is 25 but I also know that the Air Force "highly recommends" that pilot candidates score in the 70s. How often has anyone who scored a 25 actually been *accepted* as a pilot? What's the mean score of pilot applicants accepted for slots? Has it EVER happened except in Bush's case? If it has, who was that lucky applicants father?

Etc...

It all just goes to piling on to the evidence that serious strings were being pulled to keep young shrub out of Vietnam.

-Grant

[lanparty]

30. Ask the secretary ...

... she is one sharp old lady. And it seems like she has pretty particular recollections about Lt Bush and the problems that he caused.

No doubt, she might have known if the score had been changed.

[deckerd]

67. Doesn't matter now

Boy Who Cried Wolf Syndrome now applies to anything Walt says,
as far as the media are concerned. Or anyone else coming to
them from this website with tales from Bush's crypt.

Same with CBS and the memos. Abortive investigations that lead nowhere innoculate Shrub against anything having to do with his Guard service. Witnesses and whistleblowers who retract their statements do more to make *'s service look good in the eyes of the media than any amount of false and misleading memos. It may be good journalism but it doesn't belong on a campaign forum, I can tell you that.

Reality is, if you don't have the heart to frame THIS issue in a way that makes your opponent look bad, there is nothing in Shrub's shallow resume that you will be able to do ANYTHING with based on the standard of proof folks have set up. Innuendo doesn't cut it.

[alphafemale]

35. That's a difference between Us and Them. We will dog a story. But not

repeat a lie. If we find out assumptions are untrue.

[deckerd]

66. WH Claims * earned it in 3724th

Smooth Move, Ex-Lax.

Dems truly do not understand that nothing out there exists, that is any more damaging than what the White House told UPI. I guess you decided that the "truth" about a medal shrub did not, in fact, earn was more important than framing the story as significant in any way to anyone who does not already have a negative opinion of shrub's service and a positive opinion of Kerry's.

Why spend all the time on this issue to shoot yourself - and/or other opposition researchers - in the foot? I've worked in grassroots political efforts where stuff like this has happened. If you want to be noble, and rebut White House statements that you feel are overly damaging to the current President, stop focusing on who is elected Leader of the Free World.

Shrub says he earned the AFOUA in the 3724th. You're doing legal work for him crafting an alternate explanation which neither the White House nor Bush at the time EVER EVEN THOUGHT OF. As is obvious from what they told you in the WH statement. This reg does not apply to Shrub's service in the 3724th, but have it your way, you're only damaging your candidate and wasting everyone's time on a side issue.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Dems don't seem to understand that -- and I know where you are coming from, but if this is truly an independent investigation, why post it here, as a platform for advocacy against *? Sounds like you just allowed alot of people to waste time and energy thinking about a Bush scandal you had every intention of disproving using an argument Shrub's people never did -- the claim that it was a legacy citation of the 111th. How is that any different than sending unverified copies of memos to CBS, then admitting you don't have the originals and compiled them from memory? Either way, it's not campaigning.

[Walt Starr]

70. This was a search for the truth

The truth is, Bush never earned the award, but he was still authorized to wear it.

Sorry if you don't like it, but the truth is the truth and is more important than any partisan consideration.

[deckerd]

74. Walt,

I'm not a hard-core partisan to begin with, so I appreciate what you're saying. If this had been my story I would have probably sat on it until all the facts are in.

That said, I think you will find nothing but smoke in Bush's records and no trace of an original fire. Rather than turn into some latter day Inspector Javert on the trail of Bush as many/most hasrd core Dems have done, my feeling is that if you're gonna take the high road there's not much point digging up dirt to begin with. It's two conflicting positions to be in.

In any case there is no sense faulting the White House for "lying" about where Bush got the medal if you felt honor bound to exonerate the defendant against your earlier charge, so to speak. Then again I can understand how tired you must be about this. They don't know any better than we do when Bush "started" wearing the ribbon, but their assertion was the 3724th. Doesn't matter now. My only concern is credibility of the whole Bush Guard accusation business is basically up in smoke. This makes Dems look petty, esp. when the other half is saying don't respond at all to attacks, focus on "the issues".

If the reality is Bush only wore this once for a photo because someone told him 147th was eligible then this should probably have never been made a big issue to begin with. I just wish if progressives were gonna make a big deal out of something, they stop pulling their punches. If it's an unfair accusation, I'd wish it not to be made at all until the facts are all in.

[Walt Starr]

79. Um, this is a message board, not a news agency

We investigate and research all sorts of shit here.

[deckerd]

69. Just to clarify,

I respect what Mr. Starr's trying to do and the honesty and integrity with which he's tried to do this thing, but really, this is not the sort of thing for which journalists are honored.

The responsible thing to do as a journalist would be to sit on the story until the facts are in; otherwise you're slandering the subject of the article. Isn't that the mistake Dan Rather made??

If, on the other hand, this was opposition research, which is more of a lawyerly approach, then this approach of building up the story on a hunch then publically backing down on a technicality --

(when the White House admits he'd been wearing the ribbon ever since training days) --

-- does no damage whatsoever to the Bush campaign and only hurts your
credibility with the media. Again, wait until the facts are in and
don't come out with contradictory, "definitive" statements about when you think Bush earned his ribbons when the WH themselves doesn't have a clue.

If this is simple journalism on your part, and you can honestly say to yourself that you were not pursuing a story in an effort to make Bush look bad, then it was honorable of you to issue a retraction; but in that case, you might want to consider not moving forward until all your ducks were aligned to begin with.

Otherwise, discretion is the better part of valor.

[RetroLounge]

12. Nice job Walt.

Integrity. That you have in spades!

RL

[F.Gordon]

13. Kudos....Walt

You did what 99.9% of so-called "journalists" don't do. You researched the story.

I still find it interesting though that the OSI....err.. Denver Personnel Center and the White House LIED....Mims said the claims were "not true. I verified that (Thursday). Lieutenant Bush received Air Force Outstanding Unit Award while he was in basic training with the 3724th Basic Military Training Squadron at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas."

Why not just cite the regs, as you have done?

Again. Mega-Kudos to ya' Walt.

Edit? What else. Brain fart causing my typing fingers to disengage from my brain and type mumble jumble...

[Walt Starr]

14. Yeah, the White House lying because it had no clue bothers me

but at least I know the truth of the matter now.

Something I couldn't get from the news with a single exception, CBS News.

[Philostopher]

55. A 'mea culpa' takes guts, Walt.

Thanks for that.

And yeah -- the fact that they tried to spin it when the information was available, if you were able to get it, bugs me almost as much as the facts being what they are. As usual, they spun it instead of bothering to look into it themselves. This is why we all feel like 'you can tell they're lying -- their lips are moving,' for Pete's sake!

Blatant disregard for facts, unsurprisingly enough -- even facts that made your point moot. Not surprising, but kind of sad on their part.

[bigtree]

15. Good fight Walt

Looking foward to your next story!

[Walt Starr]

16. Well, it never really was a story. It was research

Research leads to astory or it doesn't. A story is the culmination of research that leads somewhere.

All I did was research, nothing more.

Edited to Add: IF the press would do their jobs, which is 90% research, 10% reporting on what that research turns up, amateurs like me wouldn't feel compelled to do this sort of research.

[bigtree]

17. .

:yourock:

[Walt Starr]

18. Thanks

I got the doc before finding out about the 60 Minutes segment, so was pretty bummed all the way up through posting this.

Then I read about the secretary and my spirits were picked up. The reactions of DUers have been cool too!

Thanks again!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

21. If only every investigative journalist

operated like you do.

Sigh.

Great work, Walt. You have a huge admirer in me.

[Doohickie]

22. Kudos to Walt Starr

I'm glad you posted the truth, Walt, even if the truth wasn't what you wanted it to be.

I have a lot more respect for you now than when I met you. You're a gem, Walt.

But keep looking; you obviously have a knack for research!

[WilliamPitt]

23. You're a journalist, Walt

Better than most I know.

[Walt Starr]

24. Thanks Will, that means a lot to me

Especially coming from you.

[Julian English]

27. Strong work, Walt--Now if Bush can show he earned that Honoable Discharge

That will truly be a miracle

[Walt Starr]

36. I'd still like to see the DD214 dated November 21, 1974

That little discharge is STILL missing!

[Blue Wally]

48. Walt

I am not sure about the Air Force. My father and I were both in the Army. After WWII, he got out then later served in the Michigan national guard though not long enought to qualify for a pension. I served a couple of tours in Vietnam then was released involuntarily along with the other "Christmas help". I joined the active reservss and served till I qualified for a pension and reached my maximum allowable age in grade. I have my records and my father's records. We each have a DD214 for our active service (1942-1946 for my father, 1961-1978 for myself). We do not have any DD214 for the time we left the reserve components. The DD214 shows the active duty days. Reserve component days are shown on the "retirement point record". Trasnfers from one element to the reserves to another and final disposition into the inactive or retired reserve is by "special orders" for the transfer. I do not think that a DD214 on George Bush ever existed for 1974. His only DD214 would be when he was released from active duty after pilot training in 1969-1970 timeframe.


I think you might be tilting after a windmill again.

[Walt Starr]

50. There would still be some form of paperwork

regardless. And HQ ARPC is not the standard reserves, now is it the IRR.

Possibly something similar to the NG22, but he was still formally seperated on November 21, 1974 and there is no documentation for that seperation in the records he provided. Perhaps it will be in the next batch of documents released.

[Blue Wally]

57. HQ ARPC

would be the "morning report" of the IRR/standby reserves. When you leave a "drilling unit" and go to the IRR or the standby reserve, you are transferred to the personnel center. There should be a set of transfer orders from the TANG to the ARPC (warning before you get your hopes up, they are pretty cryptic and won't say much).

[kestrel91316]

80. My dad served in the ANG for about 2 years before.................

getting ordered to active duty in the USAF. This was about 1955. He had to be officially discharged from the ANG before being sworn into the USAF. His ANG discharge paper is a Form 22. Maybe Bush had a form 22 instead of DD214?

[Longhorn]

28. Your goal was always the truth, Walt.

And your willingness to report the TRUTH is why I will trust anything that you report. Well done!

[Spazito]

29. I followed your investigation with great interest and...

am in awe of your investigative abilities as well as your integrity in reporting to us all that you found.

The best journalists investigate and then report their findings without coloring the truth. That is what you did. Thank you for all your work!

[Jax]

31. Finally...hope for the future of Journalists and the media

Thank you Walt Starr.

You have been HONEST and OPEN every step of the way.

You give us all hope again.

Jax

[physaf]

73. this is the right way to act.

tough, fair, but ruthless.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. Thanks for all the work and for letting us know

when you got this last bit of information about the Outstanding Unit Award. You're a credit to DU for your dedication coupled with honesty.

[LoZoccolo]

33. Why are you helping the FReepers?

:+

[Walt Starr]

34. Kicked for the morning crowd

:kick:

[myrna minx]

37. Thank you for all of your hard work and your

integrity. :toast:

[Walt Starr]

38. Back to the top

I want every DUer who read my other threads on the ribbon to see this. It's my responsibility.

[nyhuskyfan]

40. Just think...

If other investigators did this sort of thorough research, accepted the truth when it became evident, came clean with integrity, and moved on, we would never have found out about Monica Lewinsky and we'd have about 45 million dollars more in the United States treasury.

[AmerDem]

42. Nice Job

Thanks for all the hard work!:toast:

[Blue_Roses]

43. It still great work

I wish the media could take a cue from the integrity and thoroughness you've shown with your investigation.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

45. Thanks, Walt

For all the reasons already posted.

:yourock:

[NV1962]

46. Walt, you're a testament to perseverance and integrity

Thanks for this latest heads up.

On a side note, I believe another important result of your excellent research is that it highlights how and why mainstream media are failing: on diligence, clarity and honesty.

[ewagner]

47. Now THAT'S Integrity

I'm proud to know you Walt!

[City Lights]

49. You've done fine work here, Walt.

As this unfolded, I watched you come under heavy fire, both enemy and friendly it seems, but you stuck to your guns in seeking the truth, and for that you have my respect and admiration. Thanks for seeing it through. :thumbsup:

[Blecht]

51. Nice job

Good research. This is how it should be done. Ask questions; find the truth.

[undercover_brother]

52. You left out some of it.

While it is true that you wear all the unit citations your unit has earned over its lifetime, you are not allowed to wear the unit citations in official photographs unless you were a member of the unit at the time the award was given. If you change units you take with you any unit citations earned while you were part of the awarded unit. Otherwise you stop wearing the unit citations when you transfer.

If that is his official military record photograph then he was wearing a citation he should not have been wearing. At worst I would call this an honest mistake. When one gets his/her official photograph taken, especially for more Junior people, it is not uncommon for them to forget to take off the unit citations which are not a permanent part of their record.

[Walt Starr]

53. Actually, that appears nowhere in this document.

The only other bit that appears in this document regarding temporary wear indicates that somebody who has earned the award permanently may attach a bronze cluster device temporarily to the award when attached to a different unit that had earned the award for a period of time in which they were not attached.

[undercover_brother]

63. I am just forwarding information

which my unit relates to everyone who gets their official photograph taken. My unit has 4 unit citations and I am not allowed to wear them in my official photograph because none of them were earned while I was a member of the unit. I am supposed to wear them on a day to day operational basis.

[undercover_brother]

65. Here is the Army version

I assumed the Air Force has similiar criteria for official photographs. Again, not sure if the photograph in question was even his official military photograph.

http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r640_30.pdf

Read Page 2 section 7. It explains that you can wear permanently authorized awards. This is because temparary awards like unit citations earned before you became a member of the unit are not authorized to be worn in official military record photographs.

Again, this seems at worst to be an honest mistake made by a junior officer. His photographic handlers or NCO handlers probably did not correct this for him. He was probably shuffled to the photograph location, sat down, photographed, and then led off when the photograph was done. I am sure these types of things never happen to him these days.

[Walt Starr]

68. The Army version is meaningless

It's an Air Force issue and the Air Force regulations apply. The Air Force regulations say nothing about official photographs.

He could wear the award for an official photograph under Air Force reglations. He was 100% within the regulations.

[undercover_brother]

75. you are missing my point

you posted the Air Force regs on wearing the unit citation. The Army regs say the exact same thing the Air Force regs say in that regard also. What you did not pot is the Air Force regs on official photographs. The official photograph is retained in one's military file and reflects what has been received and earned as an individual. This is why temparary awards are not allowed.

Find the Air Force regs on official photographs and you might find, like in the Army, that this is yet another example where he was placed for a photograph without understanding fully what was going on.

Both sides make a valid point. One that he was allowed to wear the unit citation day to day. The other that he should not have worn it in his official military record photo.

The whole point is fairly petty though.

[undercover_brother]

77. here is another example of my point

http://www.arng.army.mil/guard_docs/title10/Bulletin/47/cc2004EnlistedPromotionAnnouncement.pdf

Notice the above URL's title. Then look at page 22 of the PDF file. The same Army reg is mentioned to follow for official photographs. Many regulations are shared across branches even though they are rewritten practically verbatim in the respective branches regulations.

I would be surprised if the Air Force regs regarding official photographs allowed wearing of temparary unit citations. The official photograph is in your military file to allow those reviewing you to not only see if you have a haircut but to see if you are wearing your uniform well and to see what you have earned at a glance.

[Walt Starr]

78. You raise a good point

Thanks, I'll check out that angle.

[Walt Starr]

54. Kickin' this back to the front page

Must keep this on the front page for at least 24 hours.

[Walt Starr]

56. Back to page one

Gotta have all of the DUers read it...

[Walt Starr]

58. One more time

:kick:

[Cocoa]

61. thanks for doing this work

:toast:

[Walt Starr]

62. Thanks for helping to keep this bounced.

:)

[troubleinwinter]

64. I learned much, Walt...

from you. I learned something about how one does thorough research.

I learned something about ribbons, military awards and regulations.

And I witnessed integrity in reporting, wherever it may lead.

I really came to, and got interested in this board because of your project and reporting on it.

Well done and I thank you.

[Crewleader]

71. Good Report Walt!

Thanks for your great efforts friend! :hi:

[zulchzulu]

76. I still don't get it

It's like going to a college and getting a pre-diploma that you can say you graduated from. Put it on your wall and act like you graduated already.

Is that right?

[Dem2theMax]

81. Total class and integrity Walt.

The world could learn some lessons from you. Bravo!