“Vote for President Bush,” Carson (D?) told the crowd

[yelladawg]

http://www.hillnews.com/campaign/091604_oklahoma.aspx

What’s unusual in Okla.? Senate candidates agree
By Peter Savodnik

<snip>
As a crowd of mostly older folks shoveled down eggs and grits and sipped black coffee at the Brandin’ Iron restaurant here, Carson, clad in jeans and a button-down plaid shirt, delivered the bad news:
<snip>

For Carson, the great challenge is putting as much distance as possible between himself and his party in a state that is likely to give President Bush a 20-point-plus win Nov. 2. That means talking about cutting the “death tax” and the capital-gains tax for agricultural sales, staying the course in Iraq, limiting lawsuits deemed frivolous, extending veterans benefits and opposing gay marriage. It means being a Harry Truman-style populist whose only mission is to help struggling farmers and make sure Oklahoma gets its share of the federal pie. It means targeting conservative Democrats in his 2nd District, in eastern Oklahoma, to compensate for the GOP edge everywhere else in the state.

<snip>
“Vote for President Bush,” Carson told the crowd at the Brandin’ Iron. “We need your help in the Senate campaign.”

Later, in an interview at the Atoka Community Center, Carson avoided even mentioning his party’s presidential nominee by name when asked whom he plans to vote for this fall. “I’m, of course, a Democrat,” he said flatly.

<snip>

[dennis4868]

1. This is why we need.....

a breakoff party from the dems....we have a weak party and that is why we get our asses kicked!

[Democat]

3. We need to find a way to take back the Democratic Party from the wimps

What the hell is wrong with the current state of the Democratic Party?

It's pathetic.

First we help Kerry win, then something needs to be done to replace the current batch of Democrats with some street fighters.

[elperromagico]

7. You are not going to elect a Democratic "street fighter" in Oklahoma.

The best you can hope for in a heavily conservative state is a moderate. The alternative (a Republican like Inhofe) is far worse.

[JI7]

5. it has nothing to do with being weak, it's about winning and strategy

[progressivebydesign]

8. No. We need to get our Democrats elected.. AND reverse media consolidation

That's how we take our Country back!! It ain't about being weak, nor about being repub-lite, it's all about having the ear of America, and we'll never have it while the republicans hold all the marbles. We get a balanced media, and we have our country back.. I'm sick of the 'blame the Democrats' shit! I'm a Democrat. Always will be. I love the Democratic Party and what it stands for. People want to compain and whine and diss the Democratic Party, when it's a much more complex situation than that. Get the media BACK into the hands of the people and the journalists, and you will have our Party back.

[goodwalt]

27. Theory Ok, Lousy in practice

I would LOVE to see the emergence of a genuine third party to break the deadlock in congress. The unfortunate reality is that Repugs are swinging more than half the political clout in this country these days- and ANY vote that doesn't go to a Democrat might as well be a vote for them.

[okieinpain]

2. excellent, a very smart move. the dnc should take this too heart. this

is what the repugs did in 2000, in places where dems are majority, the repugs ran dems. they did it all over the place, dems should do it too. that's why I'm not pissed about daschle running ad's with bush in them. smart, smart, smart.

[JI7]

4. if it helps us get the Senate seat no problem, Kerry isn't going to win

oklahoma anyways. it's not a swing state. carson just has to worry about himself winning.

[bluestateguy]

6. Then this guy will lose

If Oklahoma voters really want a conservative they will pick the real thing, Tom Coburn.

A good 30-35% of Oklahomans are generally liberal on the issues. Since the presidential race is not competitive in Oklahoma, Carson is not doing a whole lot to motivate these voters that he needs to show up on November 2nd.

Government 101:

Democrats= the liberal party
Republicans= the conservative party
People who try to reverse those labels= charlatans

[JI7]

10. then why is Carson leading in the polls ?

he just needs to show he would be better than the republican but that he also isn't a typical democrat. that's how republicans win in democratic leaning states and that's how democrats win in republican leaning states.

[Julien Sorel]

11. Are you suggesting then that he

has a better chance of winning running as a liberal?

[bluestateguy]

13. Worked for Fred Harris

[Julien Sorel]

16. You have got to be kidding me.

Fred Harris who last served in the senate in 1972? 19 fucking 72?????

[elperromagico]

12. Don't assume that just because the national party leans liberal

that every state party is equally liberal.

A good 30-35% of Oklahomans are generally liberal on the issues.

And right there, you pointed out why liberal candidates won't win in Oklahoma. Very few two party races are won with 35% of the vote. If being "generally liberal on the issues" could win Oklahoma, then Kerry would be doing far better there than he is, wouldn't he?

[RoyGBiv]

20. Generally Liberal

I don't know what specific study you've picked these numbers from, but I would suggest the terminology is key.

Sociologists and political scientists in Oklahoma like to study things like this, but they do so in a backhanded way. They interview people and ask them their opinions on various questions, but questions that are carefully constructed so as not to reveal a specific association with a political ideology. In doing this, they find that a number of Oklahomans, people in many conservative leaning states actually, have "liberal" views, but they don't themselves identify those views as liberal. In practice, these people end up voting against their views and against their interests. IOW, being "generally liberal" does not translate into votes for a candidate who expresses himself as liberal in any way, not in Oklahoma.

[IronLionZion]

33. There are conservative Dems out there

big tent party right? Most of the South and Midwest agree with the economic policies of the Democrats and the social policies of the Republcians. The Repubs have hijacked social issues for long enough. socially conservative Dems can win in the South and Midwest, the same way socially liberal Republicans win in the Northeast and West Coast.

[goodwalt]

9. God help me

What's scarier is that, God help me, I'm voting for the bastard on Nov.2nd. I have seriously toyed with the idea of going with Coburn on this one. Nut job, right-wing loser that he is, I have to concede that based on his voting record, he was sincere about trying to curb wasteful spending. Carson strikes me as a complete whore that will say anything-do anything- to appeal to his target audience, and unfortunately in our state, that puts W loving, bible thumping, homophobes in the majority.
I'm voting for Carson to help Dems retake the senate- and ONLY for that reason. It is entirely possible that Coburn would vote with the Dems more than Carson will- but if we gain the majority, it will be Daschle, and not Frist deciding what is being voted on.

[John_H]

15. So taking back the senate or voting for a wingnut is a tough choice?

Then maybe Carson's running just how he should run, since OK is apparently populated by people who would actually consider voting for a right wing cook.

[RoyGBiv]

18. That makes no sense at all...

As a progressive, I find that I disagree with a fair number of Carson's policy stances. I disagree with all of Coburn's. Did Carson suggest extending the list of crimes punishable by death to doctors who perform abortions? No. Did Carson sterilize a woman without her permission? Again, no.

It's a crappy choice we have, a nutjob or a smooth-talking politician who makes himself sound like a Repub in order to get elected, but it's what we've got, and I fail to see how even thinking of voting for Coburn changes that simple fact. Besides, Carson is a Democrat. He's a conservative Democrat in a state full of conservatives, and he's speaking to them. No big news there.

Entirely possible Coburn would vote with Dems more than Carson? On what do you base this?

Finally, I'll note that the quote is taken entirely out of context. This has become a plague with this campaign, especially when it comes to Carson. He made some similar comment during the primary, which, when reported, was also taken out of context. Speaking with his campaign representatives who know him personally might shed a bit of light on what that context was. As it stands, the notion that Carson would want voters to vote for Bush is ridiculous. He knows very well that the greater the support for Bush, the worse his chances of election.

[OKNancy]

22. I don't think so

Just the opposite. I'd wager that Carson will vote more liberal once he is in the Senate. Although not great, his ADA rating was 55% in Congress. That is a LOT better than the 0-5% that all the rest of the Oklahoma delegation voted.

Carson wants to help Democrats. I hope everyone can see that. He wants to win.that helps us in a big way.

[John_H]

14. C'mon folks. What? is there something about Oklahoma mediawhores

that makes them more trustworthy than mediawhores from other states?

How do you know this is not some hit piece, some typical whore my-anecdote-is-a-universal-truth piece?

Even if it's mostly true,I love the DUers who think every candidate should sound like Kucinich no matter where they're running.

[yelladawg]

17. Carson lies to get elected

Carson is the next Zell Miller

[RoyGBiv]

19. So, what's your suggestion?

You've been trying to tear down Carson since day one. Now that the primary is over, and you lost, what do you suggest? Elect Coburn?

[goodwalt]

21. Crappy Choice

I THINK Yellawdog's POINT is that we here in Oklahoma are facing a crappy choice? Does ther need to be more of a point than that? If you were a Georgian in the last election, would you be singing hosannahs about Zell Miller just because he was the Democratic candidate? Are you familiar with Carson's voting record? He voted with the repugs on "Partial Birth" and their homophobic effort to amend the constitution. I think the point, slick, is that with friends like these, who needs enemas?

[OKNancy]

23. Oklahoma congress record Planned Parenthood

OK U.S. House 1 John A. Sullivan Republican 0
OK U.S. House 2 Brad Carson Democrat 80
OK U.S. House 3 Frank D. Lucas Republican 0
OK U.S. House 4 Tom Cole Republican 0
OK U.S. House 5 Ernest J. Istook Republican 0

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=002906M


Carson 80%
all others - ZERO

[goodwalt]

26. Best Argument

That is the second best argument- after taking back the senate- that I've heard for Carson yet. It just rankles that my Democratic candidate's tactic is to try and out-conservative his repug opponent. YES, that is political reality in our state. NO, I don't like it very much. YES, I'm going to vote for him. Half- no, make that quarter steps forward, are better than standing still.

[RoyGBiv]

28. Well, okay...

But this isn't an answer to my question. Yes, our choices, if we're progressives, are pretty bad, but those are the choices we have. I'm talking about practical politics and what we do, not what we wish might happen in some alternate universe.

And so, given that this is the choice we have, what do we do? I know your answer. I want the answer from those who seem to have nothing better to do than try to tear down Carson.

As for yelladog's point, his point has always been the same when it comes to Carson. There was a time and place for that during the primaries. The primaries are over. What purpose does it serve to tear at Carson now when the *only* alternative will be to elect an utter lunatic who could very well make Inhoffe look liberal by comparison.

[liberalpragmatist]

24. I don't really see a problem

From the context, it appears that he was basically saying "vote for Bush if you want to." He never said he was voting Bush. Nor did he endorse him. He's just saying to separate the presidential race from his senate race. It's a way to make him acceptable to conservative Oklahomans who may be willing to vote for a Democrat for Senate but who want to vote Republican for President.

[yelladawg]

25. At the Carson Headquarters

At the Carson Headquarters, all Kerry materials, signs, and literature was removed last June. The verbiage on all phone banking has been changed and any reference to Kerry has been removed.

You tell me, is Carson for the Democratic candidate?

[RoyGBiv]

29. Who are you voting for?

Carson, Coburn, or "not voting"?

[yelladawg]

31. As so many in Oklahoma are planning on.....

The race will be left blank on my ballot.

I understand there are movements within the progressive groups to not vote.

[RoyGBiv]

32. Thanks for being part of the problem...

That's exactly what "non voters" are.

[yelladawg]

34. I feel the problem is Carson

Carson has repeatly lied on how he will vote. He has repeatly supported bushco at every turn. He is the problem.

[DaveinMD]

30. Carson

is the Democratic candidate. He's doing what he needs to do to win. When elected, he will vote to make a Democrat leader of the Senate. That is what really matters. Gaining a majority allows us to set the agenda.

[yelladawg]

35. Over 1,000 e-mails have been sent to Carson today on this

I just learned form a friend within the Carson camp that the following e-mail has flooded the Carson web site. It sounds like somebody more than myself is pissed off:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Congressman Carson,

“Vote for President Bush,” Carson told the crowd at the Brandin’ Iron. “We need your help in the Senate campaign.”

http://www.hillnews.com/campaign/091604_oklahoma.aspx

You know, I've been defending you on message boards, defending you against democrats who complain because you're not liberal enough. I can accept that in Oklahoma. But flat out TELLING people to vote for
Bush? THAT is going too far.

We're not just talking about a republican president. We're talking about the most radical, extreme president in our nation's history. Not to mention that he's an imbecile.

This country needs to be told the truth about Bush, something that I don't even consider a democrat or republican issue at this point since true republicans also have plenty to be upset with the Bush adminstration.
If Bill Clinton had pulled half the stuff the Bush adminstration had pulled, he would not only be successfully impeached, he would be in jail, and your telling people, as a democrat, to vote for Bush??????

Please explain.

[fujiyama]

36. I suppose

that this is about as good as it gets in the state of Oklahoma. Bush will win the state by about 20 points.

I sort of understand why he said what he did. It makes sense. Hey, at least unlike Daschle he's not in a freakin leadership position.

I remember a statement about the Wyoming governor, who is a democrat. He made a statement saying that he would vote for Kerry, but that in his state it wouldn't really matter anyways.

[rullery]

37. Carson meant "If you are so inclined, vote for President Bush,

but we need your help in the Senatorial Campaign". He understands that Oklahoma is likely to go heavily for Bush. But his opponent is such a right-wing nut, that not even Okies are likely to vote for him. So Carson is saying to people, It is okay to split your ballot. He is NOT endorsing Bush for president, merely facing reality in his state.

[vetwife]

38. I read that and thought Johnny Carson..stills sounds like a comedian to me

or a Zell want a be !