Obama's August Surprise...

[ProSense]

Obama's August Surprise...Updated x2

by Larry Wohlgemuth

Before I go on I would like to say rest in peace Teddy Kennedy. We will finish the fight you started and we will win.

I continue to be awed by the genius of Barack Obama. His recent execution of "The Take-Away" comes on the heels of expert timing and implementation of “The Feint”. In a world where timing is everything Barack Obama put it on a gnat’s ass.

Obama came into office saying that we were going to get health care done and it was going to be done before the August recess. There was never any question in his mind that Congress would be forced to vote on a plan before they went home to their constituencies. He spoke about it ad infinitum, and it did exactly what he planned.

His relentless pressure to get health care done by August forced the Republicans to gear up their troops for the showdown. They had tea parties and disrupted town halls with a genuinely energized base. They had no choice, they had to expend all their resources and show their strategies in an attempt to win in August. Then Obama simply said oops, my bad, I guess we won't vote on it until October after all. But what did he accomplish with this?

Saul Alinsky, in his book, “Rules for Radicals”, said the best tactics were those that the people most enjoyed. But he also said that even the most enjoyable tactics will get stale and people will weary of them. So the Republicans have been riding their wingnut base hard, asking them to wear funny costumes and carry not so funny signs and show up at teabag parties and town hall meetings. From all appearances these were tactics that their base enjoyed, but how’s that working for them now?

Early on the town hall meetings were dominated by wingnuts, but not so much anymore. That can be attributed to two things: first the wing nuts are wearing out and the tactic is no fun anymore, and second, by successfully executing The Take-Away, Obama has set the Democratic base in the motion. To use a sexual metaphor the Republican strategy has suffered a premature ejaculation while the Democrats are moving towards a simultaneous orgasm. Now we are seeing health-care reform supporters actually confronting the wing nuts, and in one case a group of elderly men ripped a sign out of the hands of a much younger and more physically fit wingnut protester. Four weeks ago whodda thunk that would ever happen?

link

Some 2,000 events are planned around the country through Labor Day

Here's a snap shot of the progress Obama, Dems are making toward passing a bill with a public option

[MercutioATC]

1. Or, maybe, he's just caving to political pressure...

...along with most of Congress.


Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

[vaberella]

2. Caving to what political pressure?

He has talked about townhalling health care months ago when the Health Summit was underway. He has consistently said that he would explain to the American people his moves because he knows there is a lot of misinformation out there and he wants us to be aware of what is going on. So I don't know what political pressure you're talking about.

[tosh]

3. +1.

[MercutioATC]

11. His statements of support of the public option have softened.

He campaigned on it being a necessity.

It has become "whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health-care reform...This is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it."

Read that as you will. I see it as a weakening of his position.

[vaberella]

41. I read it a clarification and he's bloody well right.

The public option is ONLY a small aspect of this. I've studied Health economics. There is a massive industry right now and the insurance companies run the gambit on control. Yes there are 46 million people uninsured but there are hundreds of millions who are insured and still not covered and then you have the other group who are being ripped off by Big Pharma because of their connection to the insurance company and the insurance company themselves. When you take and lets say that 46 million is part of the 300 million or so people in the nation----then 254 million people are bloody suffering alongside those who don't have insurance and that is a massive number---all together 46 million is massive. What we're facing is that the public option when compared to everything else that is associated with the health care system and debate is only one small aspect of it. The massive issue is that there are people who are just suffering end of story and don't have proper or full coverage like they thought they had but their flooding the insurance company with their hard earned money for years for no reason.


This is why I don't see why people are 100% hung up on the public option within this debate. I've supported the plan when he ran as a candidate, I support it now, and will continue to support it (I even prefer it over single payer). The President hasn't softened his position in the least but clarified an important point. The people without insurance, while they have problems without coverage, are still not the even sadder people who are paying for insurance and don't get coverage when they need it losing thousands to millions over a period of time. So all that money to be protected lost to them. The public option will work almost similar to medicaid/medicare but that's offered in most States. We have a huge problem and there are different issues involved in Health care reform. People from both the left and the right are turning this conversation to ONLY about the Public Option when it's not. It's more than that. You decide not to recognize this situation and you decide to parse his words when he's making an important clarification.

Let's get the full quote why don't we,

"The public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform. This is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it," Obama said. "And by the way, it's both the right and the left that have become so fixated on this that they forget everything else."

[joeycola]

62. Your slivers must be might big!!

Senate Democrats Consider Tactic to Push Through Government Health Plan (with a simple majority)
Mon Aug-24-09 04:50 AM

Source: NY Times

Senate Democrats said Sunday that they were fleshing out plans to pass health legislation, particularly the option of a new government-run insurance program, with a simple majority, instead of the 60 votes that would ordinarily be needed to overcome a filibuster.
After consulting experts in Senate rules and procedure, the Democrats said they were increasingly confident that they could legislate creation of a public plan in a way that would withstand challenges expected from Republicans.
Appearing Sunday on the NBC News program "Meet the Press," Senator Charles E. Schumer of New York, the third-ranking Democrat in the Senate, said a public insurance plan was "essential to getting the costs down, which is our No. 1 problem."
Proponents of a public plan say it would drive down costs because it would not have a profit motive and would have lower overhead costs and lower executive salaries than private insurance companies.
In Colorado on Aug. 15, President Obama said people had become "fixated" on the public plan option, which he described as "just one sliver" of efforts to overhaul the health care system.


Read more: Http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24health.html

Mon Aug-24-09 02:56 PM

Insurers admit 50,000 employees lobbying Congress to claim profits fair

Memo tells employees to keep a low profile

A spokesman for America’s Health Insurance Plans, the industry’s trade group, admitted in an article published Monday that as many as 50,000 industry employees are involved in an effort to fight back against aggressive healthcare reform.

The admission, published in the last sentence of a Wall Street Journal article, highlights the stakes of potential healthcare reform for the private health insurance industry. Insurers and investors alike are terrified at the prospect of a so-called “public option,” which would create a government-run health insurance program to compete with private insurers. Because the government plan wouldn’t have to earn a profit, the plan would be able to undercut the premiums of private firms, pressuring profit margins.

“The health-insurance industry is sending thousands of its employees to town-hall meetings and other forums during Congress’s August recess to try to counter a tide of criticism directed at the insurers and remain a player — and not an outsider — in the debate over the future of the health-care system,” the Journal’s Vanessa Fuhrmans and Avery Johnson wrote Monday.

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/24/health-insurance-employees-lobbying-congress /

[vaberella]

89. I don't get your point. n/t

[JDPriestly]

67. For too many people, the public option is the only financially reasonable

one. I went without health care insurance for years during my 50s. I couldn't afford the premiums. Knowing I could make myself impossible to insure if I went to the doctor and a problem was identified, I stayed as far from my doctor's office as I could. Of course, now in my 60s, my health is not nearly as good as it would have been had I had check-ups at that crucial time in my life.

There are many people now in the situation I was in then. They are too young for Medicare but cannot afford to go to a doctor. Once they get Medicare their health care will be more expensive.

A medication that now costs me about $15.00 per month could have made all the difference in my health.

[vaberella]

88. But Obama is not denying that and never has. And has ALWAYS stood by it.

However, he is saying that we can't have a debate that is only one sided and narrowed. We need to see the whole issue at hand. This is why the Republicans seem to kicking our asses. They focus on one issue. When you put EVERYTHING in perspective you then see what the real issue is and why health reform overall is so fundamental. If you keep the issue ONLY on the public option as the Repubs have done and then you have the idiot left trying to explain that away the discussion becomes watered down and silly.

As for the case you mention. I'm already there. I'm 29 years old and unforunately don't make enough for private insurance and so I'm on medicaid---and currently I am at a point where I made too much for medicaid and far too little to pay for insurance and I'm too damn poor to go to the doctor although I have health problems.

But I'm not about to let a chance for a massive overhaul on so many different avenues to be dismantled over one aspect. Further more many States have a form like medicaid if they all don't and there is SCHIP/WIC, and the such. Of course that is not enough. Obama is trying to say and is saying there is a huge encompassing issue that affects us all---not just a minority of people.

When you turn the issue like that it makes it seem as though there are the lowlies that need aid from us. When in actuality we're all lowlies getting jipped.

[JDPriestly]

108. The public option is essential because without it, there is no

way to control the rise in the cost of health care. None of the other proposals do anything about the cost of healthcare. If you do not pay for ordinary insurance, regardless of the reason (employers are paying for the health care of many people), you may not realize that health care costs are rising far more rapidly than other costs.

Thus, Medicare supplemental insurance is scheduled to go up in costs although, theoretically, otherwise inflation rates are not high enough to kick COLAs in for Social Security. For many people, however, the reality is that even slight increases in health care costs are a very heavy, even crippling, burden.

Without the public option, how will health care costs be reduced?

Personally, I still believe the winning strategy would have been to advocate strongly for single payer. That would cut costs dramatically. Single Payer with the money now shelled out to health care insurance companies each month across the country going to state or federal government health care administrations and then on to non-profit health care providers that would pay the individuals who provide services either fees for service or salaries would be the most cost-efficient. It would also provide the best service to everyone.

Of course, you could still have private health insurance for extras, let's call it the Michael Jackson Special Insurance Plan, for those who wished to buy it. Single payer with good preventive care would be the best for most of us.

Without a public option, health care reform is meaningless.

I lived in Europe for many years and loved the various single payer plans over there. It was great. It is only after I came back to the U.S. that I had trouble getting health care.

[Vinnie From Indy]

94. A few thoughts

You write,
"The people without insurance, while they have problems without coverage, are still not the even sadder people who are paying for insurance and don't get coverage when they need it losing thousands to millions over a period of time"

I think a more accurate statement is that the folks paying the ever escalating cost of healthcare insurance are bigger DUPES than the uninsured, but hardly are they sadder. That is, of course, only true if you believe that DYING from lack of healthcare is a bit sadder than just finding out you have been lied to and hoodwinked.

you write,
"People from both the left and the right are turning this conversation to ONLY about the Public Option when it's not."

Again, to be more accurate, the vast majority of the left has not wavered in the slightest from complete support of the idea that single payer or the public option is THE primary pbjective of healthcare reform. It is the corporate interests and right wing that have consistently attempted to make this conversation about something/anything OTHER than a government run option.

[AlbertCat]

112. I see it as a weakening of his position.

And it solidified the base....

The PO is back with a vengeance now... or haven't you noticed.

[HughMoran]

61. That's why I have that wingnut moran on ignore

:eyes:

[Baltoman991]

4. Much as I know

it disappoints some, Obama is caving in to no one. His message has been the same from the start on health care. If you wish to talk about caving in then stick to Congress where yes, many are caving in.

[vaberella]

6. Agreed----like most of the Conservadems, which surprised me.

Of course I'm waiting for their vote than their words since it counts for nothing...obviously.

[firedupdem]

7. The President has been steady as a rock...when did he cave? n/t

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phx_Dem]

18. Or maybe you're just looking for anything negative. n/t

[MercutioATC]

21. No, I'm simply pointing out that not every misstep is a planned strategy.

...and that (in my opinion) Obama has been softening his stance on the public option a bit.

Obama has the option to clearly state that he will veto any bill that doesn't include a public option. He's chosen not to do so. That may be another example of his "strategy", but I don't believe so. I believe that Obama is a very well-intentioned man who campaigned as a reformer, but has encountered the realities of Washington as it exists and has chosen to moderate his message.

...and I disagree with those who either dismiss all of his actions as "strategy" or simply claim "he's smarter than everybody else".

[FrenchieCat]

25. You are only guessing that Obama has no strategy, or that his strategy has failed.

But in reality, you have nothing to base your claim on,
not anything based on his history (because that "Chill out, I've got this" saying has been used over and over again for a reason...which is that those who underestimate, fret over, or make pronouncements on what Barack Obama will actually accomplish usually end up being wrong).

And since you are not the fat lady, whatever you have already determined is happening or will happen is based on nothing more than what is currently evident to you; but what is evident is not always how things end up...especially when Barack Obama is concerned (he has usually been counted out, and then presto, he ends up being the one doing the counting).

The point is this; until all is said AND done, you know only what your opinion is, and not what the outcome of this issue will be. You may think you know exactly what Obama is doing or not doing, but in reality, you have no more clue (in fact you have less of a clue) than others as to where this whole thing will end up.

In otherwords, you have prematurily ejaculated, just like the wingnuts were described in the OP. I hope it feels good, cause in the end, you will not have been right....in my opinion (which is as good as yours).

[MercutioATC]

29. Nor does the OP have any basis for its claim.

I agree with you COMPLETELY in that none of us really know what the outcome will be.

So "perhaps" Obama isn't playing this like a fiddle. "Perhaps" he's caving to the political realities of the system.

"Obama the candidate" was more forceful on the issues than "Obama the President" has been. He has the option to state that he will veto any legislation that does not include a public option, but he's declined to do so. "Perhaps" this is some secret "strategy"...and "perhaps" it's a concession to politics.

Based on many of his past practices (advisor choices, bailouts) I believe it's more realistic to assume the latter.

[Jane Austin]

33. "Based on his past practices (advisor choices) . . . ."

What would you have had him do, surround himself with Bill Ayers and and assortment of ultra-leftist economists?

He wouldn't have gotten a Mother's Day resolution passed with a bunch of lefties around him, now would he?

How you going to sneak up on 'em if you're carrying a Wobblies flag at the head of your parade?

I believe that President Obama will get as much done as is humanly possible in the political climate of today - by NOT telegraphing his every move weeks in advance.

[paulk]

36. a few liberals would have been nice

I would have even settled for center-left.

Obama, time and time again, has come down to the right of that center line.

[Amos Moses]

85. What "ultra - leftist", besides Bill Ayers, are you talking about?

It's very telling that you lump anyone left of our center - right President in with Bill Ayers. You actually said "bunch of lefties", just like a Repuke would. What does that make you?

Ever consider that Barack wouldn't have been elected with out the "fringe" element on the left that you consider to be such a liability? :eyes:

[Jane Austin]

107. I don't believe you understand my comment at all.

Kindly read it again, more slowly, understanding that I am a "leftie" who grew up in deep East Texas so I have some experience with having to maneuver behind the scenes to get done what you want.

[Amos Moses]

120. Oh, OK I simply misunderstood why you resorted to

right wing sloganeering. It's just a tactic you use to get what you want. :crazy:

[4_TN_TITANS]

95. or Perhaps...

Big O's fucking brilliant and it takes a unique talent to even begin to decipher his moves. As a father of two daughters who have played basketball over half their lives, I can relate to how Obama has taken core sports strategies and broadened them to a much grander scale.

The Feint and The Take Away... sheer genius when applied to politics!

And what the OP says is happening, is happening before our eyes, just look at the grilling McCain got yesterday from the pro-reform crowd. Now that the baggers are tired of swinging their teabags, Obama has opened a huge lane down the court for his base to drive threw and score.

[Fiendish Thingy]

106. I find Obama to be a fascinating enigma whose strategy eludes me,

Health care reform is his most significant challenge since getting elected. His election was something I didn't take for granted, even when the polls were going his way and it looked like a sure thing heading into election day- not after the previous 8 years.
I don't pretend to understand or even perceive clearly what Obama's strategy is on healthcare. Maybe this is good? If it's not clear to me, maybe it's not clear to our opponents?
My larger concern is Congress; even if Obama has a grand strategy that is unfolding before our eyes, will Congress go along? Surely you don't think Obama/Rahm has as much influence/control over the Dems in congress as Bush/Cheney/Rove did over Republicans when they held the majority? I don't.


I make no claims, pronouncements or predictions, but I will admit to a significant amount of fretting, and will be delighted if my fretting turns out to be needless.

Nevertheless, as anxious as I am about the outcome, I'm still hoping and fighting for the strongest bill with a solid public option.

[ProSense]

26. Where is the misstep? The RW is fumbling, with the RNC and

even Senators like Grassley fumbling over their words. The public option has gained support since the debated heated up, and even one of the gang of six is agreeing to reconciliation as an option. So where is the misstep?

You claim he has moderated his message, but he still supports a strong public option.

There is still strong support for the public option, between 70% and 80%, according to at least two polls. Where is the misstep?

If Obama supports a public option and it is gaining support, where is the misstep?

As for the RW, which this OP deals with, his actions, regardless of how you want to characterize them, appear to have thrown them for a loop. They exhausted much of their energy in the early weeks of August, and there are still a few weeks to go. During that time, the administration and Democratic groups are stepping up efforts to push for health care reform with a public option. Again, where is the misstep?

Maybe not everything is a strategy, but it seems that the administration was highly prepared for the RW noise, at the very least believing they could ride out the impact of the noisemakers. As evidenced by the events in place, they were more prepared than just riding out the noise.




edited typos

[Doctor_J]

47. HOw is the RNC fumbling?

every day another Dem Senator comes out in favor of Big Insurance.

[ProSense]

49. "every day another Dem Senator comes out in favor of Big Insurance" Get your facts straight

June: 37 Democratic Senators support a public option for health care reform and Landrieu was a no.

August: 45 Senators support a public option and Landrieu is a don't know.

more

[Zodiak]

110. Landrieu is a "don't know" on cloture

She is clearly against the public option. This was on DU yesterday.

"Asked under what circumstances she would support a public option, Landrieu responded, "ery few, if any. I'd prefer a private market-based approach to any health care reform that would extend coverage," according to the Monroe News Star."

The conservadem is considering siding with Republicans on a filibuster, not considering voting FOR the public option.

So Landrieu is still a "no" and is now considering "hell no"....please adjust your link spamming accordingly.

"Landrieu has also balked at the idea that she and other Democrats should be expected to oppose filibusters as a procedural matter. "I'm going to keep an open mind, but I am not committing to any procedural straitjackets one way or another," she said in July."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/landrieu-under-very-few-if-any-circumstances-would-i-support-a-public-option.php

This article seems to indicate she has not changed her position on not voting for cloture since July. You have newer information?

Please do not paint her as anything but the turncoat she is.

[Jane Austin]

32. If he's not "smarter than everybody else" then he's a tactical dunce,

and way too thick to have beaten the Clinton organization - which was formidable.

I mean, if he's making mistake after mistake without correcting himself, then he's not the Obama I watched out-maneuver all comers for three years.

In fact, if he's not correcting course, he's either dumb as hell or . . . he's doing some jujitsu.

Thankfully, most Republicans, most pundits and quite a few liberal radio hosts see it as you do and they all think he's horribly inept, too.

Stop and ask yourself why he's not correcting course.

And please don't tell the republicans what he's doing!

[Amos Moses]

90. Or maybe he's just a mere mortal and doesn't have all the

answers to everything. Maybe he's been corrupted by wealthy campaign donors, along with various other cronies, and that is his reason for not making specific demands detailing what he thinks is meaningful reform.

He might not even be a genius. I know that's hard to imagine. :wow:

[Jane Austin]

105. Or maybe all those pundits out there aren't geniuses.

Oh, wait. I forgot how they've always been right about him.

:sarcasm:

[bobhuntsman]

98. rope-a-dope??

[lark]

111. The Repugs already know

He cut a deal with big PHarma that he would not push for any more take aways from them than what they voluntarily agreed to. How do you spin that as brilliant leftist policy? Sounds more center right to me, and far from his promises during the campaign.

[Jane Austin]

114. Who said anything about "brilliant leftists policy"?

Not me.

[CTyankee]

42. I'm not so sure. Having your enemy spend all of their forces on preliminary battles is

a time honored tactic. Yes, we know the enemy is out there but we also know their number is small.

What we had to fear the most was that the vocal minority would plant doubts in the general public's mind. But if the Dems are just going to roll over the repubs in Congress and get this done the people will be thankful they got it. Getting SS passed in the time of the Great Depression couldn't have been easy for FDR. Imagine the fear and terror of the populace back then! IT WAS DONE.

You see, this is really what the repukes fear most: the people will get universal health care and they will love it so much (like Medicare and SS) that they won't want to ever give it up. So the trick is to get it passed in the first place.

Let's give the cynicism a rest for now. The fall will be interesting...

[Doctor_J]

48. spend all their resources? In what sense?

The Dems aren't going to roll over the Repukes. Too many traitors like Landrieu, Conrad, and Nelson.

[CTyankee]

56. I don't know what arm twisting will help with them, but roll over them they must.

FDR stood up to the pukes. So can we.

[joeycola]

63. I think you are right.

[Binka]

82. Your Coke Has Lost The Fizz

LOL you are so funny honey!

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alfredo]

92. True but we've seen him sit back, let his opponent punch himself out, then

like Ali, start landing one punch after another until his opponent is down for the count.

[ClusterFreak]

103. meh....

:boring:

[firedupdem]

5. Thanks ProSense...Rec'd n/t

[Cha]

9. I've read this mentioned before..

about the deadenders blowing their wad early, so to speak.

You and I both know that Obama Team has to have all kinds of strategy(obvious and otherwise) to keep the hounds of hell/aka/the corporatewhores/gop at bay.

[Jane Austin]

10. He is an incredibly patient man.

Drives this Do-It-Now person crazy, but his timing is always good.

I love when Howard Fineman or a liberal radio host says "What Obama doesn't understand . . . ." or "Obama needs to . . . ."

Excuse me, Mr. Fineman and Mr. Liberal Host, but how many Presidential campaigns have you won?

[treestar]

19. True enough. There are so many posts like that on DU

and you wonder why said posters are not running campaigns or don't have jobs in political organizations.

They do commentary like the pundits.

Yet who can really judge that who is not in it?

[Laelth]

12. I prefer to believe that Obama is honest.

I think he meant it when he said he wanted to get this done before the August recess. I have a hard time believing that this is all part of some grand, master-strategy dreamed up by Axelrod and Emanuel.

More likely, the President is reacting to the situation as best he can. He's trying to turn lemons into lemonade, as are we all.

:dem:

-Laelth

[ProSense]

13. And where in the OP does it say he was being dishonest?

He was simply prepared.

[SidneyCarton]

28. I think you're probably right.

Obama is patient, and that seems to be serving him well, but I would imagine he would have prefered a pre-recess passage too.

At least he knows how to make lemonade, otherwise things would be sour indeed.

[AlbertCat]

113. Obama is patient, and that seems to be serving him well

Also...

This is Governing as usual. We've had 8 years of secret undisclosed location government and a rubber stamp do-as-the-Exec tells you Congress. Everyone's forgotten how things work.

Obama cannot just tell Congress what to do.

I also think the disrupt-the-town-halls thing took Dems by surprize....in its extreme vitriol. They still underestimate the nuttiness, serious nuttiness, of the Right. Dems project too: They expect people in power to listen and debate sincerely. That's what many of them do.

[autorank]

15. The Alinsky reference is what makes the analysis work. k*r

Hope he's right and it is a credible alternative. They Repubs were tempted skillfully to over commit
(like the German invasion of Russia). It's their nature. They couldn't help themselves. Now they've
taken their best shot, which, as it turns out, offended the public. Now the counter offensive. Nice
analysis. Thanks.

[jenmito]

16. K&R. n/t

[Hekate]

17. KnR. I know this: locally we Dems were quite prepared when the wingnuts wanted to shout down...

... our Congresswoman in the street by her office because she was too "cowardly" to have a town hall where they could beat her up. A few of them came (some from out of town from another more conservative congressional district) and a couple of hundred of us locals showed up before they did to show support for health care reform.

I'm here to say that WE need to be prepared and show up. I think it's starting to work.

As for the anti-reform politicians, that clip of the woman sobbing for help with her husband's TBI and feeding tube and being told that she should ask her neighbors for help was shown on CNN or MSNBC this morning. Sorry I don't know exactly which one because I was flipping channels -- but that has got to be devastating.

Hekate

[maxpower]

20. This is what I thought

Me thinks President is a lot smarter than people give him credit for.

[uponit7771]

22. K&R, Survey USA poll shows support for public option still around 80% Next fall should be fun

[ellie]

23. Wow

Your post brought them all out. Well done!

[Robb]

24. Sun Tzu. nt

[Adam Kirur]

27. President Machiavelli, eh?

I like it!

[grantcart]

30. more like President Saul Alinsky

[grantcart]

31. Republican Premature Ejaculation --- spot on and perfectly put

[depakid]

34. Sort of like Kerry and Dukakis' August surprises

And it was a good thing for the Obama campaign that September brought the economic meltdown... 'cause it wasn't the best of Augusts on that end, either (if the polls were to be believed).

[ProSense]

35. Pulling out Kerry and Dukakis to make a point about Obama = FAIL. Also,

"(if the polls were to be believed)"?

What polls? His approval or support for the public option? Which is more important in the health care debate? I suspect it is support for the public option, which is still very high and gaining support among elected officials.

[depakid]

39. Inability to learn from past mistakes = fail

I've watched these bogus rationalizations about how getting the crap beat of us all summer "is actually a good thing" -and a "wise strategy" for over 20 years now.

They're as devoid of merit today as they have been in the past. And they may well end up with the same result this time, too- even though over 70% of Americans favor (or favored) actual health care reform.

[ProSense]

40. Obama won the election, what are you suggesting he didn't learn by that comparison? n/t

[depakid]

46. Look at the dynamics

Throughout the summer, the Obama campaign missed opportunity after opportunity to define their opponents (with their own words) and let them set the narrative and frames. The low point was probably that Rick Warren forum- that thankfully, almost no one watched. They really didn't start hitting hard with their own narrative and frames until the convention- by which time the damage had been done. This is why up and until the meltdown- they trailed in the polls.

Think about it. That the most unenthusiastic and incompetent Republican campaign of the past 100 years- with the most unpopular president in history was even close- much less ahead of the most enthusiastic campaign- and most charismatic leader of the past 44-48 years!

Fortunately- they "got the message," and changed their style down the stretch.

That they've thus far not learned from the experience is obvious- at least to folks who grasp the cognitive science and track the communication strategies and tactics.

The "hope" of course is that they'll figure it out once again for the stretch run- 'cause what they've been doing with the "policy speak" and failures to set up misery profiteers as boogeymen (real ones) -and tap into the anger at them for their injustices isn't winning any converts.

[ProSense]

50. What? You're talking about the campaign, still? He won. What about health reform?

You still have not demonstrated that the RW is succeeding. In fact the public option is gaining support.

Your narrative doesn't reflect reality. The opposition being loud is not the same as being successful.

[depakid]

58. You're still not seeing the dynamics

Here, read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/the-policyspeak-disaster_b_264043.html

[ProSense]

59. Wait, I'm supposed to ignore the facts and read that? n/t

[depakid]

69. If you want to learn something you'll apply the facts to the scientific principles

and look at the dynamics.

[ProSense]

70. Scientific principles? Are you serious?

Maybe you should back away from analysis and look at the facts. Fact: Republicans death claim failed to gain traction. Fact: A large majority of Americans still support the public option. Fact: The public option is gaining support among elected officials.

[depakid]

72. Oh good grief- we've been getting our asses kicked

Republicans have yet again framed the debate- and are set to gut even the most modest reforms.

Look, I know most Americans have a low regard for science these days- but as the article notes, Republican know how to use apply the principles. That's why they repeatedly win policy fights (or their positions prevail) -even when they're nearly irrelevant in terms of their ostensible numbers.

And they've repeatedly won over the years, EVEN WHEN THEIR POLICIES ARE PROFOUNDLY UNPOPULAR.

Cognitive and behavioral psychology tells us why- and sets out the procedures that get it done.

[ProSense]

73. Oh BS. "Cognitive and behavioral psychology tells us why" What?

No the facts speak for themselves.

"Republican know how to use apply the principles. That's why they repeatedly win policy fights." Aparently, the Republican did a number on your head.

Maybe you should stop giving Republicans more credit than they're due. Their approval is at 20%, but I suppose in your mind, they're making a comeback.

[depakid]

75. Ok, remain willfully ignorant

I've seen two generations of naive people mouthing platitudes like this- and who either are too young or lack the memory to draw lessons from policy battles of (even the recent past).

Lost interest in this colloquy... you'll either learn- or you won't (or you'll end up cynical after one too many disappointments).

[ProSense]

76. Willful ignorance is not accepting your claim that we're getting "our asses kicked" by the GOP?

Oh brother.

[TankLV]

66. obama didn't so much as "win" as the repukes LOST bigtime...

a confluence of events prevented obama from snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...

now reality has set in again, and so far it looks like WE'VE taken a DRUBBING...

I goddamn hope you're right on this, but so far, it doesn't look like it...

[ProSense]

68. "obama didn't so much as "win" as the repukes LOST bigtime..." What utter BS n/t

[paulk]

77. seems like all your arguments anymore consist of either

"that's bullshit" or "nonsense".

It's a goddamn good thing you don't actually work for the Obama administration - your bullying tactics are guaranteed to not win friends or influence people.

[ProSense]

78. Ah, the word police. Do you ever post anything that's not a critique of the words used in a comment?

Calling something bullshit or nonsense has nothing to do with bullying. It's simply characterizing the content of the post. How can you appoint yourself word police/DU psychologist if you don't know the difference?





edited typo.

[paulk]

81. do you ever post anything that isn't an insult?

your post is the usual strawman.

It's not about the "word police" - it's about debate. DU is a discussion forum - calling something "bullshit" isn't discussing anything - it's nothing but your bullying another poster because they disagree with you. And it's pretty much all you do anymore.

[ProSense]

93. Again, calling something nonsense isn't an insult. It's an opinion. Now,

what exactly are you adding to the discussion besides your self-righteous and inaccurate assessment?

[paulk]

122. what I'm adding to the discussion is

pointing out that you're not DISCUSSING anything...

back up your "opinions" by discussing them.

[Cha]

71. Oh yeah, We Won ..Big Time..all us Dems!

We won the election!

If you want to be the loser..go right ahead.

[AlbertCat]

115. getting the crap beat of us all summer

Talk about "devoid of merit"!

Explain where we got the crap beat out of us please.
Was it the unmitigated SUCCESS of the Teabaggers? Or the POSITIVE LIGHT being shed on the Town Hollers? :eyes:

I know.... let's ask Glenn Beck. He's doing so well because of it!

[FlaGranny]

84. No doubt, much of the decline in

his approval rating is from folks fearing he is going to lose the public option in his health plan. If we get the public option, his approval rating will soar again, "you betcha."

[phleshdef]

57. A horrible attempt at making a comparison, so many holes they aren't worth explaining.

[dionysus]

124. kerry and dukakis? for christ sake, can you be more ridiculous?

[Control-Z]

37. "To use a sexual metaphor

the Republican strategy has suffered a premature ejaculation while the Democrats are moving towards a simultaneous orgasm."

I love it!!

[alwysdrunk]

118. +1. Rec'd for the sexaula metaphor

Simultaneous orgasm+ Win Win for all.....

[harun]

38. I don't think so. Just making them vote would have worked in passing it.

Dem's don't want to be the ones who killed Health Care Reform, and it would be up to them.

I think Obama is using this to break the spirit of the Repub's. Most of them still think they run the country and can get everything they want. This will be the first of many hard lessons he is going to give them, until they learn.

The professor is in.

[bvar22]

43. A little early to be taking Victory Laps, or raising....

...."Mission Accomplished" Banners.

The proof will be in the final Health Care Insurance Reform Bill.

If we get a STRONG Public Option ("like Medicare") that has a broad enough enrollment to actually "keep the Insurance Companies Honest", and "drive down the cost of Health Care"....

then, indeed, Obama has played this just right,

and I will applaud.

[ProSense]

44. Except this isn't a victory lap

It's an assessment of the current situation. The RW has, in fact, exhausted a lot of capital on the town hall screamers and on pushing their death panel claims. Americans rejected both, and the debate continues.

[bvar22]

51. No, this is very much a "Victory" thread.....

....declaring Obama's "brilliant strategy" a success,
when the TRUTH is....nobody knows HOW this is going to turn out. :shrug:


I am praying that Obama is this brilliant strategist that is 5 moves ahead of us mere mortals who aren't intelligent enough to understand, but I tend to take people at face value.
I am also cursed with a memory.

Someone would have to be willfully ignorant to not notice the steady weakening of the language coming from the White House concerning the Public Option ("a tiny sliver"), but maybe that is part of the Great Master Plan?

[ProSense]

53. Wrong. Complete misread. n/t

[bvar22]

54. LOL!

I continue to be awed by the genius of Barack Obama. His recent execution of "The Take-Away" comes on the heels of expert timing and implementation of “The Feint”. In a world where timing is everything Barack Obama put it on a gnat’s ass.

Obama came into office saying that we were going to get health care done and it was going to be done before the August recess. There was never any question in his mind that Congress would be forced to vote on a plan before they went home to their constituencies. He spoke about it ad infinitum, and it did exactly what he planned.

No charge.

[ProSense]

55. What about the rest of the article, and what it's actually about?

His relentless pressure to get health care done by August forced the Republicans to gear up their troops for the showdown. They had tea parties and disrupted town halls with a genuinely energized base. They had no choice, they had to expend all their resources and show their strategies in an attempt to win in August. Then Obama simply said oops, my bad, I guess we won't vote on it until October after all. But what did he accomplish with this?

See, this isn't claiming a bill has been passed, it's about the RW attempts to kill reform.

[AlbertCat]

117. Why do you think...

.... acknowledging strategy is the same as a preemptive victory lap?

The RW has a single stratagem: Scare people to death. Obama is a little more complex. It ain't perfect, but it's flexible and keeps dancing around the lumbering elephant

[proud patriot]

45. Moveon Vigils Sept 2 and then a Big rally in SF on sept 13th

:kick:

[FrenchieCat]

60. I'm going to the big Rally on 9/13 in SF!

:hi:

[proud patriot]

64. see you there

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

52. He was pretty clear about this matter. Health Care Reform, This Year.

And to listen to some, here and in the media, you'd think he wasn't serious.

I never doubted him.

He was and is serious.

And he's got fuckin' GAME!!!

:woohoo:

[BlueIdaho]

65. Or.. if you like sports metaphores...

The Rumble in the Jungle.

"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee - Rumble young man Rumble!!!"

[felinetta]

74. I think Obama wants everyone to be involved and included. Yes WE can.

We have to work just as hard to try to get what we want.  We
are not being allowed now to sit back.
That is part of democracy.

[guruoo]

79. Rec&kick

[CitizenPatriot]

80. shhh! I'm terrified that one day

the repukes will finally look back on the 'lipstick on a pig" debacle and realize how they got played!!!

The President is a brilliant tactical and strategic thinker. No, he can't see into the future and he's not perfect-- but he's got a brain on him and he knows how to use it to play this game.

Some say he's playing chess, but I'm thinking tennis. He wears them out, playing a fair to middling game, until they get all cocky, thinking he's slower than them, and so they move up to the net, ready to smash it hard and close, where he can't reach it. oopsie, he's faster than they thought. He races to the net, and seeing all of the empty space behind them that they can't cover now...

and he goes in for the long, high lob to the back corner.

Right over their heads.

And somehow they always end up looking all sweaty and gross, while he's cool as a cucumber.

That's what happens when you've been in power for too long and gotten good and predictable. A young, smart, ambitious person comes along and suddenly, it's a new game.

GOBAMA!! We will do this thing!

[AlbertCat]

116. but he's got a brain

It's called, "Not thinking with your gut"...like Georgie Porgie.

[jeanpalmer]

83. And to what end is he doing this?

Does he have a healthcare reform plan that he has proposed and wants to get passed? No. He doesn't even have an outline of a plan. He has offloaded the issue to Congress. And in Congress it has turned into total chaos. There's no consensus on anything. And we're probably going to end up with something bad.

People are justifiably concerned with what the final product will look like. As it stands now, it looks like the result may be accomplished in secret through backroom deals. Is that the way to reform healthcare? No one has any idea what the final bill will look like, if there is one. How can you expect people to support something when they have no idea what it is? People can reasonably envision a process similar to that used to pass the Patriot Act where it was done in the middle of the night without anyone reading the final bill. With that being a possibility, I think people are reasonably concerned about the outcome.

Obama should have shown leadership on the issue and made a proposal, or proposals. Then he could have explained his proposal to the people, with details, and we could have had a reasonable debate about it. What you're describing here, if he's really doing that, is playing mind games. That's not the way to reform healthcare.

[Amos Moses]

87. "How can you expect people to support something when

they have no idea what it is?"

The only thing the writer of this article is supporting is a politician, with his vague references to "getting health care done". What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Will it mean if meaningful reform is not passed, he'll blame Obama for not getting it done? He's certainly willing to give him credit if everything goes well.

Notice it's about Obama being a "genius" and getting a win, not about accepting nothing less than meaningful reform that allows everyone access to affordable health care.

[ProSense]

96. "He doesn't even have an outline of a plan." Wrong

Health Insurance Reform will Benefit All Americans

Reality Check

Transforming and Modernizing America’s Health Care System

Now you know.

[paulk]

101. haven't you heard? The majority of the people support a

"public option".

Of course no one really understands what that is, since the Obama administration (and their pom pom wavers) have been working overtime to turn "public option" into yet another meaningless slogan like "change" or "hope", another catch-all word or phrase that can be interpreted to fit into whatever plan they're trying to sell at the moment.

Neither the "public option" in HR3200 or the HELP bill is worth the name.

We have every reason to be, as you say, concerned about the outcome of this healthcare reform.

[ProSense]

102. "no one really understands what that is, since the Obama administration (and their pom pom wavers) "

And you're lecturing someone on insulting people?

There's a word for such hypocrisy.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

121. what's the word, prosense?

spell it out. maybe we can get a few more posts deleted.

[dionysus]

126. well, he didn't say cult or messiah (even though i bet he wants to), so he's holding back.

:rofl:

[Amos Moses]

86. Anyone in awe of a politician needs to have their head examined.

genius? Sounds like he's "calling the game before the first inning is over". :rofl:

[stlsaxman]

97. Well, I must be TOTALLY fucking insane! I am in awe of Edward M. Kennedy, Anthony Weiner...

Barack Obama, Al Gore, Joe Biden, Howard Dean, Russ Feingold, Al Frankin, Carl Levin, Bernard Sanders, Sheldon Whitehouse, Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman, Dennis Kucinich...

I'll counter your sentiment with anyone who is NOT in awe of these and other public servants is either too lazy to be aware or blinded by insanity.

[Amos Moses]

99. I agree with the stance some of them take on a lot of the issues.

Guys like Kucinich, Sanders and Weiner do what they can to help the working class but am I in awe of any of them? No. I'm not young and impressionable enough for that any more.

BTW, exactly what is it that I'm being lazy, blinded or insane about? Not practicing hero worship means I'm not good enough to be on your elite level? :crazy:

[stlsaxman]

119. Sorry dude- I was just making a gross generalization. Much like you were.

[BrklynLiberal]

100. K&R

[GETPLANING]

109. Interesting theory, but---

Never underestimate the influence and staying power of the medical industrial congressional complex.
The teabaggers are a sideshow.

[ProSense]

123. It will be interesting to hear what Obama says tomorrow.

The claim that Obama hasn't led on health care is completely bogus

[JNelson6563]

125. I agree with you.

But don't worry. He can make it clear he's for a public option and everything then the mob will find something else they suspect he won't do their way and that'll be the next thing.

Julie

[dionysus]

128. why you pom pom waver you.

;)

[Phx_Dem]

127. Someone should share this with the morons at AmericaBlog.

I would, but I've sworn off that shithole because of their constant attacks on Obama's character. Yes, his character. They have gone from attacking his policy to attacking his character on a regular basis. I'd sooner post on Free Republic.


Just as athletes need to peak at the appropriate time, such is the way of political movements. With his feint about an August vote Obama has forced the Republicans to peak way too early, and they are beginning to show the signs of fatigue. Obama has turned the always on message Republican Party into a royal cluster-fuck. And he didn't even break a sweat.

Barack Obama, I bow to your greatness. Your “August Feint” followed by “The Take-Away” was executed with impeccable timing, and your greatness should be recognized by all. I humbly bow before your genius. Having watched Senator Kennedy for all these years I have little doubt he left behind a final, personal message to the American people. I am certain he will urge us to continue the good fight, and give you ammunition to seal the deal. I thank both of you for helping to return America to the hands of the American people.

In my next diary I will discuss "Providing Cover for the Blue Dogs", and how and why Obama is doing it.

Priceless! I can't wait for his next diary about the Blue Dogs because I also believe Obama's public and repeated embracing of Blue Dogs is for a very specific reason -- he knows what he's doing. Not to mention, you catch more flies using honey than vinegar.

Edited: The Blue Dog diary has already been written! Silly me. It is here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/28/773566/-Providing-Cover-for-Blue-Dogs.