FOLKS! I have it FIGURE OUT! IT's the MORALITY ANGLE!

[PretzelWarrior]

I participate on other discussion boards and have been surprised to find that when some of us centrists and progressives discuss our moral imperative to cover all of our citizens and provide health care, they go absolutely ballistic!

They simply have no counter for this argument other than wild strawmen like "well why don't we cover people all over the world, then"?

I know it's been discussed by some commentators as well that we've spent too much time talking policy mechanics and numbers and affordability.

DISCUSS THIS AS A MORAL THING JESUS WANTS! They lose it.

It just doesn't make sense to talk about this in terms of how much this is going to "save" the budget, etc. Even though there are savings and there is an economic rationale for doing this. That is too deep for the dummie nation. We don't THINK about facts...we FEEL stories told to us by sobbing individuals.

It is time to ratchet up the pathos and ethos.

Vast majority of Americans have employer based insurance or are already in Medicare. Those people need other motivation than "what's in it for me" because it's hard to explain in a few words to some dude working as an office worker for Corperation X that if he and his wife and kids suffer a couple of medical catastrophes they are likely to be wiped out financially.

[SIMPLYB1980]

1. Yes we should use WWJD against them.

It works great and Jesus was a liberal after all.

[PretzelWarrior]

4. if the rules of logic and public policy don't make sense to them, go for the gut.

just short circuit logic and tell them they are being un-Christian for being so miserly. Or paint it as a matter of pride in USA! USA! USA! We're number one economy. THe richest industrial nation but we have people who can't even afford medication or to go check out a health issue for their kid.

We send people to jail for willfully refusing to take their kids in for medical treatment on religious grounds, but as a so-called moral nation we make it impossible for some to afford to make that choice.

[mzmolly]

19. Hell yes we should!

No pun intended. :evilgrin:

[Salviati]

22. Republican Jesus would refuse to raise Lazarus...

... due to a pre-existing condition.

[PretzelWarrior]

25. BUWAHAHAHHAH!!! good one.

[dave29]

24. Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

I can see how this might entice them

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Free healthcare for all, like the rest of the developed world gets, is simply the moral thing to do.

I like it. Good meme and it rings well.

[FatDave]

16. But being like the rest of the world is a bad thing to these idiots.

You haven't noticed that?

[PretzelWarrior]

18. yeah. I noticed that. I laugh at some of these people who think USA is #1 and

fuck the rest of the world. okaayyyy.....maybe we've had our moment..but we're slipping. Nothing wrong with taking the best of what other nations offer.

[RC]

29. Why isn't anyone even looking at what what the rest of the world has?

All we seem to be able to see here, one way or another, is insurance companies. And then mostly how to keep them in the loop.

[PretzelWarrior]

30. good question. considering how hard the slog is even without single payer

imagine what it would be like if THAT were the discussion.

[provis99]

3. Republicans don't pay any attention to morality, so that angle won't work.

See the various Republican sex scandals, and Republican support for torture, among other things, to confirm their lack of interest in morality.

[polmaven]

7. Right....

They have their very own brand of morality, and, IMO, it bears vry little resemblance to that which I hear in church every week.

[PretzelWarrior]

8. there's a reason those sex scandals cause many to resign. their constituents

are often moral or think they are. THere are many self righteous Republicans and independents who want to get to heaven. They are constantly judging others. We can jusge them and let them know they are being miserly.

See, the big reason we're having trouble is A)although expensive and inadequate for serious health issues, most people have health insurance and don't want it to get fucked with, B)most likely voters are skewed toward older population either already using Medicare or soon to be. They are afraid they'll lose something in this. C)Some are afraid taxes on soda or a wealthiest Americans surtax will affect them or someone they know. So they don't want to pay.

Make this about doing the right thing. As a convenient bonus, it IS about doing the right thing.

[harun]

13. Yah, will only work with moral Republicans. Most are hypocrites.

Would work on the truly religious humanitarian ones though. Which is maybe 5% of them.

[RepublicanElephant]

27. bingo! that's why neo-con wingnuts are immune to the true christian argument. nt

[wryter2000]

5. What are you talking about?

Jesus never healed anyone without verifying their health insurance coverage.

:sarcasm:

[PretzelWarrior]

6. lol. good point. He accepted Galilee HMO I believe.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

9. "... wiiiith the Blue Cross of Jeee-susss, March-ing Onnnn Beforrrre"

[demwing]

34. Roman Cross/Roman Shield

but you know, they wont accept patients with previous conditions

[Touchdown]

10. I've been thinking the same thing for months.

It is not only immoral, but highly EVIL that someone should pocket cash on the physical suffering of others.

[RC]

35. Be careful. That line could be used to keep the pay of health care professionals down.

Driving good, competent people out

[postulater]

11. Insure thy neighbor as thyself!

[PretzelWarrior]

12. exactly!

[Clio the Leo]

14. My father did this very thing from the pulpit Sunday.....

... he talked about those verses in Acts that talked about the first Christians "having all things in common" (property) and he said, "kinda sounds like socialism, doesn't it?"

While I dont know for a fact, I'd be willing to bet we have some gen-u-wine birthers in our midst ..... and I had to put my hand over my mouth to keep from laughing too loudly. I got in an "Amen" though. lol

[PretzelWarrior]

15. yep. I love those parts. it kinda puts a dent in prosperity theology

the suburban megachurches love to preach.

[FatDave]

17. Aren't there like a thousand verses...

...where Jesus talks about helping the poor? Like almost every time He opened His mouth?

Not that it matters though. They'll just say that it's not the government's place to help the poor, it's only the individual's place. If there's one thing fundamentalists love, it's a good loophole.

[PretzelWarrior]

21. that's why Catholics invented dispensations.

however, there are quite a few God loving people who are sincere and will be swayed by this line of reasoning. Look at the Governor (former?) of ALabama. He wanted laws that focused on poverty reduction as a "values vote" type of thing. He was Republican.

[mudplanet]

20. It's too easy to assume, when talking to the right,

that you are talking to someone that is basically a good person but that doesn't understand the issue.

Unfortunately, you will often be wrong in your assumption.

Because, many on the right are essentially "bad" people, that is, they oppose progressive change because:

they don't care if other people are tortured, or they like it when others are tortured,

they don't care if other people have access to health care, or they don't want others (usually, specifically, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and anyone that looks different) to have access to health,

they oppose democracy, because they feel that they have things in their favor now, and they don't care whether others are fairly represented in government (or don't want them to be).

So, being a fair minded person, you naturally assume that the person you are talking with is a decent human being and shares some fundamental values with you, and you can get pretty puzzled and frustrated when they don't appear to respond to reason. It's because they are responding to reason, but what you perceive as gross injustice (torture, violations of the Constitution, killing hundreds of thousands of people on a made up pretext to cover your true motivation of making your war profiteer friends rich, the list goes on) is, from their perspective, a good thing.

Just because a person looks, talks, and acts normally doesn't mean that he is a decent person. America is full of people that live in ordinary neighborhoods, go to ordinary, middle-class jobs, drive ordinary cars, belong to some church and consider themselves to be "Christian." They look like you, and you may make some simple assumptions about them, but in many cases they are, in fact, no-good-chickenshit-motherfuckers.

If a person can't take a stand against torture, can't at least voice an opinion against unnecessary war, can't be bothered to say something when those around him are talking like bigots, and won't be bothered to support access to health care for all because he's-got-his-what-does-he-care, then he is a bad person.

[PretzelWarrior]

23. nice rant. while I agree it applies to a large group of those conservatives in religion

I don't think it remotely comes close to applying to all of them. Let the disengenuous, evil fucks continue to watch their numbers dwindle. As we take the mantle of good citizenship and educate people, many will come along.

[CrispyQ]

26. This cartoon breaks my heart.

It is exactly the attitude that we are up against but most people aren't so honest.

[PretzelWarrior]

28. good point. and there's grannies who would rather their grandkids suffer

than they see even an iota of reform to Medicare.

[depakid]

31. Completely wrong

The majority of Americans don't care one iota about their fellows if it comes down to paying something called taxes- though they're strongly motivated by envy and resentment.

So- $10,000 put of pocket (or via businesses they have a stake in or might own) is far less of a concern than $5,000 that they'd pay otherwise- becuse it ensures that some brown person or piece of white trash doesn't get "something that they don't deserve."

This is also why- in the converse- that Americans have built the world's largest and most expensive prison system.

Want to see meaningful heath care reform passed?

Turn that resentment around and aim it at the insurance companies-

[holiday]

32. i have thought same thing

I am Christian. It's a moral issue to me. Can't believe the so called pro-lifers are okay with people dying without med. insurance/medical care.

As a Christian and a far leftie, I noticed long time ago republicans only quote the Bible and morality when it comes to social issues. Once your talking about money they back away from the Bible so fast! The Bible is very socialistic.

I can't believe some people worry more about paying a few extra dollars in taxes than people's lives!

[DailyGrind51]

33. Do people who believe in pre-emptive invasions and the death penalty really care?