How comfortable are you voting for a candidate who supported Reagan?

[Padraig18]

Assume this candidate also voted for Nixon and Bush 41. Please vote.

[JohnKleeb]

1. I thought you liked Clark

:) :hi:
My concerns that I do have with Clark arent about that.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

48. He's Transferring His Anger at Me To Clark

At least my anger with DEAN is the root cause of my actions. :-) Because the other thing doesn't make any sense at all to me. But I guess it's diff'rent strokes and all that.

DTH

[Padraig18]

114. Wrong again.

My anger with you is a separate issue.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

148. You Already Admitted as Much to Me, Padraig

That the reason you're mad at Clark is because you're mad at me and his supporters.

But you should of course feel free to tell everyone otherwise, if it makes you feel better. It is a free country, after all.

DTH

[Dookus]

2. Would you vote for a candidate

who believed Bush was doing a "fine job" on the war on terrorism? Evidently you would.

This a dumb thread, padraig.

[Padraig18]

3. It's quite relevant, actually.

Some folks are gonna learn that civility is NOT a one-way street.

[Dookus]

30. nobody ever expected that it was

After all the baseless attacks on Clark, I decided on January 2nd to fight back.

But I do it with articles, links, news and facts. Not this kind of crap.

[Padraig18]

41. It's not crap.

It's actually VERY revealing. Read the numbers...

[Jerseycoa]

46. It's crap unless you edit

Voted for Clinton-Gore 1992; 1996
Voted for Gore 2000

If you don't, it will be VERY revealing.

[Padraig18]

50. No edit neccessary.

It's in the record, right from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

[Jerseycoa]

64. It is incomplete and you know it nt

[Padraig18]

67. Don't tell me what I know.

It's complete, whether you like it or not.

[Jerseycoa]

68. So you're not talking about Clark, is that it? nt

[Padraig18]

72. Whatever gave you that idea? n/t

[Jerseycoa]

74. Nighty-night, Padraig

Carry on with whatever the hell you think you are doing. :hi:

[Padraig18]

80. Hint:

I'm demonstarting that civility isn't a "Kick Me!" sign pinned to the back of the Dean campaign's shirt. :hi:

Sweet dreams.

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. i don't believe it

there is no proof noe can there be. he's a pig in a poke with no verifiable history

[wyldwolf]

7. ...or one who thinks Cheney is an ideal vice president...

... or has an A+ Rating from the NRA... has sealed records that may have "embarassing" things in them...

[killbotfactory]

10. Like Clark?

Who had kind things to say about the Bush administration even after they stole the election?

[wyldwolf]

16. Like Dean who had kind things to say about the Bush admin...

...after they stole the election.

[killbotfactory]

27. Did Dean do it while at a republican fundraiser?

[CTLawGuy]

54. or who has zero governing experience?

[killbotfactory]

9. Like Clark?

Who had kind things to say about Bush on the subject in January of 2002?

[wyldwolf]

17. Like Dean who had kind things to say about Bush as well

[BootinUp]

4. Had to answer yes because

otherwise I would have disown myself.

[jfiling]

5. Had I been able to vote back then...

and looking at the matchups, I'd have voted for Nixon both times, Reagan both times, and Bush 41 the first time. Clark's voting record is one of the few things on which I completely agree with him.

[Lone Pawn]

8. I'd have voted

Nixon both, Reagan first time, and no Bush 41 at all. But I do agree that Clark's record shows integrity rather than a sheer party-line.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

21. Bush 41 bothers me the most

Most people I know who were old enough to vote back in those days voted for Nixon and Reagan - why, I have no idea.

Bush 41 is very, very troublesome. But then again, the alternative was the "moderate, centrist" Dukakis, so...

Did Clark vote for Bush 41?

[BootinUp]

32. It only took one term of Regan

To turn me hard core Democrat.

[jfiling]

38. Well...

Let's see. First of all, I guess going back far enough ( which the original post didn't ) I better specify I'd probably have ( wrongly ) voted for Kennedy over Nixon in 1960.

Now then, I qualified my post by saying that considering the matchups, those are the people I'd have voted for. No way I could have EVER voted for Humphrey or McGovern against Nixon ( who, whether you like it or not, did successfully get us out of Vietnam, and he can't be blamed for losing LBJ's war ). Likewise, it'd be a cold day in hell before Mondale or Dukakis even got a second look on my ballot. And Carter ( "I have commited adultery in my heart" ), the sole incumbent ran against in this mythical poll, was a complete failure his first term, and has been a complete failure as an ex-president.

Bush 41 was the same failure, which is why I would not have re-elected him. And even though it's not part of this, Bob Dole was a joke, which is why I supported Clinton's re-election.

[LTR]

127. Let's face it, Dukakis sucked

He was a joke and ran a horrible campaign. I can't blame anyone for voting for Bush then (although I voted for Dukakis).

Same with Mondale. The 80s were not a great time to be a Democrat.

Elections are decided my the MIDDLE. Not the extreme sides. THAT is where the nominee must eventually target. The undecideds are the ones that can tilt the election to one side or the other.

And I would venture to guess that the majority of the country is in the middle.

So what we have in Clark is one of us - someone that was non-partisan and middle of the road.

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

14. RayGun was pretty damn clear from the outset

Remember what the first thing Reagan did? He fired striking Air Traffic Controllers and let it be known that Labor was gonna get fucked. Well, he lived up to those promises and I will NEVER support anybody that thought Reagan was good for America.

Labor suffered more damage under Reagan than the entire 50 years prior to his election. We haven't recovered from the damage he did and probably never will.

[BootinUp]

37. I basically agree

It was a mistake of youth in my case. As far as Clark goes, he was in the military, its a different environment, your going to support candidates that will support your dept. Plus, he probably wasn't very tuned in to domestic policy. I forgive him.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

53. yes, Reagan started a whole new offensive in the class war

I was a kid at the time, but it seems there were quite a bit of "labor activity" duing the 1970s and Reagan really attacked organized labor more than anyone had for years.

I should specify that most people I know who were old enough to vote for Reagan have apologized for it, and don't like to admit it in public.

Mondale didn't seem bad to me, after watching the debates on the League of Women's Voters website. Why Dukakis? Jesse Jackson would have been so much better!

[deminflorida]

6. Very Comfortable....

n/t

[Printer70]

11. On an "entirely separate" matter, I have a problem with the DLC...

...interfering with our primary and giving the general public virtually no choice in the general election.

[LuminousX]

12. My Dad voted for Reagan, My Mom Anderson

I can't fault people for being suckered.

Clark was a sucker, he is only human.

[ClarkGraham2004]

13. I'm comfortable as hell with it.

[killbotfactory]

15. How about one who praises Reagan to this day?

Like Clark, who said he was a great leader and helped end communism.

[wyldwolf]

How about one who praises Bush to this day...

...saying he's done a fine job in the war on terrorism and who loves Cheney so much said he was an ideal VP and even had secret energy meeting just like Cheney!

[LuminousX]

22. Ah, far better to put that into context

But I guess that would defeat the purpose of trying to slam Dean. My bad.

[killbotfactory]

24. Do you even know why Dean said that about Cheney?

[lurk_no_more]

104. Isn't that what

"Incredibly Competent" VP models are for, to lead by example.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[LuminousX]

18. I wonder if Clark thinks Reagan should supplant Roosevelt on the dime?

Or should have another school/highway/airport named after him.

The only thing Reagan should have named after him is a landfill.

[wyldwolf]

20. I wonder how much money the NRA is giving the Dean campaign?

[LuminousX]

23. Hopefully a hell of a lot

[ClarkGraham2004]

28. I wonder how much money the Republican Party is giving the Dean campaign?

[LuminousX]

34. Hopefully all they have

[Padraig18]

36. None.

I wonder how much they're giving to the Clark campaign?

[wyldwolf]

35. Here is what you want to associate with Howard Dean RE: NRA

http://www.nramadness.com/

[LuminousX]

40. the NRA is a non issue to me, so don't even bother bringing it up

in response to me.

[wyldwolf]

43. Not that I give a rat's butt what is a non-issue to you, but...

Dean is connected with one of the GOP's biggest donors. United in purpose?

But if it is a non-issue to you, well, I guess you have no opinon one way or another.

[LuminousX]

45. The fact you brought up the NRA in response to one of my posts

implies that you think that I would respond to it.

The NRA has only given Dean positive marks... oh god, this has been discussed too many times. If you are really this clueless, just put me on ignore.

[wyldwolf]

49. Sorry, posters like you provide comedic relief... so don't use ignore

[Andromeda]

75. I'm glad you are so easily amused but that's...

not what Luminous said---he was suggesting that YOU put him on ignore if you don't like his answers.

[Hawkeye-X]

84. Its a non issue.

Do you see NRA donating money to Dean? Even if they could, they can't since they are broke.

[Lone Pawn]

33. Say what you like about Reagan...

He may have been a crappy president, but he =was= good at leading people around. That's probably what Clark meant ;)

[Andromeda]

79. Reagan was very good at manipulating people...

I think it must have been that "gipper" thing.

[BootinUp]

42. Seems like

he qualified that praise. He has also said that he will say praise a job well done, even if they are a Republican. Thats called Leadership and the ability to unify the country.

[blm]

19. You're right, Dean supported Reagan and Bush WAY too much for my comfort.

It is downright creepy that he had "mixed feelings" about the illegal wars in Central America...part of IranContra, fer chrissakes.

And what's with his longheld support for DEREGULATING ELECTRICITY?

[wyldwolf]

25. To Dean supporters, Republican actions mean less than kind words for them

...so if you act like one, no big deal. Play nice with them and you're baaaaaaad.

[Padraig18]

26. No more one-way street on the civility issue kick

[Tummler]

29. Just as comfy as I would be in voting for Hillary Clinton

...the former Goldwater supporter:

The delight is palpable in her voice as she recounts her suburban childhood in a home that embraced both her father's conservative-and-proud-of-it Republicanism and her mother's quiet-yet-stubborn Democratic stance. Clinton is equally interesting in her reflections on her own transformation from a Goldwater Girl-yes, Goldwater Girl-during her college years at Wellesley to a Democrat during the turbulent 1960s.

[GOPFighter]

31. Hey. I supported Goldwater in '64

Should that disqualify me from being a liberal Democrat and posting on DU? People change. Now, can we all just get back to our number 1 goal of beating Bush in '04? I'm sick of this back-stabbing!!

:mad:

[BootinUp]

39. We welcome Goldwater supporters!

Hear hear!

[texasmom]

69. So did my parents.

And they are good liberal Democrats today! They broke away from Republicans after Nixon and have never looked back.
I don't hold a person's past votes against them.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

44. I'm wondering about the Bush 41 part.

Have a link?

Because I was under the impression that the candidate in question has admitted to voting for Nixon and Reagan, but also voted for Gore and TWICE for Clinton.

It seems to me that supporters of another candidate have started to add in the part about Bush 41 - because "if you say it enough, that makes it true." I hope you can prove me wrong - it would reflect badly on these supporters otherwise.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't post a poll asking something along the lines of "How comfortable are you voting for a candidate who proclaims to want the votes of southerners who own confederate flags? Assume this candidate also eats kittens." :D

[w13rd0]

55. Bush 41 did win his first term...

...just letting you know. So one could have voted for 41 once, and Clinton twice...

[Jackhammer Jesus]

61. Right.

But as far as I know, there's no information about the person in question voting for Bush 41.

I ask because I used to often see the "Clark voted for Nixon and Reagan" argument posted here at DU, and it suddenly transformed itself into "Clark voted for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush 41."

I'm wondering whether some people are unknowingly spreading a baseless rumor, or if there's some substance behind it.

[w13rd0]

77. Clark says he "started voting Democrat"...

...with Clinton. So in 1988, he either voted for Bush, or maybe he voted third-party. Who was running third party in 1988? Was Browne running that time?

[wyldwolf]

47. These anti-Clark polls always turn out different than the poster hoped

Like this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=570195

[Padraig18]

51. What makes you think it's anti-Clark?

It's just a simple question that fully 30% of the respondents have answered by indicating they are NOT comfortable with it...

[zulchzulu]

91. What a load of bovine excretement...and you know it

It's an anti-Clark poll.

It won't get locked for flamebait on DU though...hmmmm....yeah, that seems fair.

[Padraig18]

131. As Judge Judy says, ....

..."I didn't pick him, you did."

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

56. One-way streets on civility are nasty, too.

And I'm tired of being looked at like asphalt. There is no "Drive Here" sign on my candidate.

[JVS]

98. Yeah!

[w13rd0]

57. Thing is...

...you just made that shit up. Some people were praising Bush and lobbying the White House up until weeks before they decided they wanted to run for the Democratic nomination.

[Lone Pawn]

59. Yeah, I did make that up.

I never said I didn't, nor did I ever mention Dean.

But aren't push polls nasty when they're turned on you?

[Lone Pawn]

76. Could someone tell me what rule I broke?

I'm just curious. I can't figure out which one it was.

[MidwestMomma]

Man, you guys are good...

My head is spinning!

This thread contains the swiftest, most condensed exchange of barbs between the Clark and Dean folks I've seen on this board. And you all managed to hit most of the major sticking points between the 2 camps. I'm going to bookmark it because it is a great summary and I got to say, quite impressive.

Now let's script this baby, get some backers and take it on the road...I smell a hit! :D

[paulk]

58. One of the basic tenets of the Dean campaign

is that he has evolved. At least that argument has been presented to me several times over the last few months by various Dean supporters to explain away some of his more conservative positions as Governor of Vermont.

If you accept Dean's evolution from conservative centrist to liberal populist then you have to accept Clark's "evolution" from Republican to Democrat.

Don't you?

[ozone_man]

65. A centrist Democrat in Vermont is a liberal nationally.

While someone who voted for Reagan (especially a second time), who should have been tried for treason, shows poor judgement and is not fit to run as a Democrat.

[Padraig18]

60. Hmmm, 1/3 are not comfortable...

Sounds like that could make for some very high negatives for a candidate, especially with the party base... :think:

[Lone Pawn]

62. One third

Of the most extreme liberal, dedicated Democrats (you can't deny that DU is slanted left even among Democrats), one-third wouldn't have voted for Reagan.

Of course, being a moderate is an advantage everywhere else in America. You do realize you need *more* than the party base to win, right?

[Padraig18]

63. Obviously I do. n/t

[DancingBear]

66. What good is this?

This is designed to inflame, not inform.

Nothing to see here, really.

Every once in a while, it's OK to take a break from this madhouse. :)

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

70. Clark analogy

Ok, I voted for Bush Jr. I also voted for Bush Sr., Reagan and Nixon. However, I've learned my lesson and would now like to be the Chief DU Moderator. The fact that I have only been posting on DU for a few weeks shouldn't be an issue. Please, trust me on this. I'm sorry and I promise I can do a better job.

Kinda sums up Clark's credentials.

[Padraig18]

73. hehe.

:P

[goobergunch]

78. LMAO! (n/t)

[Bucky]

81. This would be a good point if...

This would be a good point if Clark were only running for leader of the Democrats. It doesn't surprise me that a Dean supporter would think of this analogy, because that seems to be all that Dean aspires to be--leader of the Democrats--based on the reckless way he's comporting himself. He's turning off a lot of swing voters and hoping that his shoot from the lip style will, by some miracle, not motivate Republicans to turn out their base in just as big numbers as he is expanding the Democratic base.

This is a rather flawed strategy. By tossing new red meat to feed the fundies, he's not just stirring up the left, he's stirring up the right. But worse, he's doing it in a way that will turn off the center.

Clark on the other hand is running to be president, everybody's president. He's trying to be moderator not of "D-U" but of USA-U"--that is, moderator of a board in which Democrats, Republicans, and independents will all vote. Of course president of the US is also head of his party. But if he can only get that job and not get the White House, then he's useless to us. I already have a useless president; I don't need a useless head of party to run against him.

[kodi]

71. its's not where you come from, but where you're going that counts most

.

[Bread and Circus]

82. As of right now, the "No %" Nearly mirrors Dean's % on DU polls...

funny that.

[BootinUp]

92. fine analysis doc :)

I concur.

[Bread and Circus]

83. Wait, what candidate are you talking about....

hmmm.....Sharpton...no....Gep....I don't think so....man,
this is so tough....who could it be...

[Bread and Circus]

85. Actually Padraig, this is the first low class thing I have ever seen U do.

Dude, you were a pinnacle of fortitude on DU.

This poll is really low.

[Bucky]

86. This thread is fair. (I'm pro-Clark). Think about human psychology

We all have concerns about candidates. These are men and women we've never met for the most part. It's not just Clark--we don't really know much about any of them. Voting someone to have the power over our lives that a president has is a HUGE act of trust in human nature.

So here comes a guy, a general when our Democratic culture is largely shaped by opposing war (Vietnam in the 60s, the Freeze movement and Nicaragua in the 80s, Iraq in the 90s, Panama in the 90s, Iraq in the Nothings), and this general is saying he's one of us, tho he voted for THEM as recently as 1988, and he wants to be our leader.

Mistrust isn't just rational... it's healthy. Not a belief that he's a bad person (though it's often expressed that way by some of our more close-minded fellow Democrats), but an absense of blind trust that such a man could be a credible leader for us. We must, as a party, ask these questions and vent these fears before we can allay them.

Although Clark is a warrior, I am fully confident that, as people come to learn more about him, they'll come to accept and finally to support him. But I'm willing to be patient. People will learn to accept on their own time schedules. Democracy is not just chaotic, it's also time consuming. Dean, being who he is, could reclaim full party loyalty by sweeping into the nomination in a perfect storm. Clark needs to have the validation of a well fought and honestly argued campaign across several states. Democrats must see their friends and neighbors learning to trust and work for this man before we can fully grant him the mantle of nominee.

So these kinds of questions are not unfair. They're actually necessary. When I first heard of Clark, I was a little skeptical too. As I listened and read and watched, I learned to trust him. Others will join us in their time, just as I'm learning to trust Dean knows what he's doing. The arguments seem hot right now, but in the long run they're going to make us stronger.

Please be patient, Family Doctor. This will all work out for the best.

[AntiCoup2K4]

87. Voting for Nixon in 72 or Reagan in 80 really doesn't concern me that much

There were a lot of democrats who did vote for those guys. Hell, my dad was one of them. (But he never voted for either Bush! :) )

I'm far more concerned with the statements Clark has made with the current unelected fascist Fraudministration. Calling them "a great team" and insisting that "we need them there". Add to that the comment that "I would have been a Republican if Karl Rove returned my phone calls".

These are not statements to be proud of.

Clark is talking completely different these days of course, but is it likely that someone can completely change their positions, and sincerely mean it, in such a short time.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

89. It's the '84 vote that I don't understand.

By then, it was pretty easy to tell if the emperor wore clothes or not. For the life of me, I can't understand how someone of Clark's obvious intelligence could have voted to reelect that empty suit. But it's not a deal breaker for me, I like what Clark has to say and he is a strong candidate who could beat Bush. If Kerry doesn't make it I could wholeheartedly support him.

[zulchzulu]

88. Is this poll flamebait?

I had a poll very similar to this that asked about whether it was good to back a candidate who had a previous past with dealing with Enron while in an elected office. Of course, the candidate in question was the Enron-bashing Dean. Hence, not a good light on him...

The thread got locked.

Shouldn't this poll be treated the same, or is it because it's basically an anti-Clark poll, it's considered OK...

[JVS]

90. Why has he not renounced Reagan?

[BootinUp]

93. What would be the point

Is he running on a Reganesque platform?

[JVS]

94. The point is that Reagan is deified by the right and Democrats should...

oppose this, and not endorse him by saying that they once voted for him without adding a renunciation. Support for Reagan from a Democratic candidate demands explanation.

[BootinUp]

96. every stump speach he makes

he explains how he became a Democrat and the whole story. You think they don't know his history in NH?

[JVS]

97. What is this story? I'm not in NH

[BootinUp]

99. In Clarks words

My name is Wes Clark and I'm running for President.

And before I say another word, I want to make one thing clear: I'm pro-choice, I'm pro-affirmative action, I'm pro-environment, pro-health care, and pro-labor.

And if that ain't a Democrat, then I must be at the wrong meeting. Looks like I found the right meeting! thank you Terry, Lottie, Alice!

I'm in this campaign because I love this country. I spent thirty-four years in uniform defending it. and for the last three, I've watched as everything I fought for, everything I cherish, has been unraveling Before our eyes. I've watched as people have lost their jobs. I've watched as we've lost the respect of The world community. I've watched as we lost our sense of security -- our faith in government. I've Watched as the shadow of fear descended over the United States of America.

And that's why I'm here today. That's why I've campaigned for Democrats, given money to Democrats, and Voted for Democrats, including Al Gore in 2000. And I'm proud that his campaign was a winning campaign.

In the United States Armed Forces, we simply served our country. We obeyed the orders of the commander in Chief and the officers appointed over us. But when I left the army, I looked at both parties, and the Differences couldn't have been more clear.

more
http://clark04.com/speeches/003/

[JVS]

101. And yet he still won't renounce Reagan?

[kayleybeth]

100. Denounce Reagan?

as he's dying of Alzheimer's disease? Yeah, that'd be a smart political move.

I voted for Reagan in 84, GHW Bush in 88, and Democratic ever since. So no, it does not bother me at all that Clark voted for Republicans many years ago. I'm just glad he's on our side NOW.

[BootinUp]

102. heh, good point :)

[JVS]

105. RENOUNCE it is not the same word

[Hippo_Tron]

95. I went from giving the stupid answer in the last poll like this...

To say I am quite comfortable.

[lurk_no_more]

103. It's the ones that will vote for

whats his name that I'm not comfortable with, I'm voting Clark.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Clark Campaigner]

106. I think it is GREAT that Clark has supported these Presidents

It shows he is diverse and open-minded.

[Piperay]

107. Not a problem

I voted for Nixon, so I can't condemn anyone else. We aren't all born knowing who is the best to vote for, it takes some of us longer to wise up but the important thing is that a person eventually does.

[Clark4VotingRights]

108. Now I see why you told us to take a deep breath and relax about attacks

Padraig18. You're busy attacking.
How very...versatile of you.

[Padraig18]

109. Not quite.

GD-P2004 is absolutely TOXIC with Dean slams and smears that the moderators can hardly lock fast enough; if anyone assumed that I would somehow NOT defend my candidate, that person was sadly mistaken. Like Gov. Dean himself, when I get pushed, I push back.

[retread]

110. I'm puzzled by the assumption that support for Raygun means

votes for Nixon and Bush41. Any evidence??

[RandomUser]

111. Padraig, this push poll is beneath you

I'm on record as stating you've conducted yourself admirable prior to this, and I've praised you more than once. I even defended you when you were attacked on a thread once. But this is a push poll, because you've chosen to present information selectively.

Clark may not be your candidate, and you may not like him. And if you choose to be critical of him and express that criticism in a fair manner, I have no objection. But you leave out the fact that Clark also voted for Clinton and Gore, and has campaigned for other democrats. If this post of yours asked if someone would be comfortable voting from a candidate who voted for Nixon, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, and Gore, then it would fair. But you've been selectively biased in presenting your information.

This is a poll aimed at influencing people's opinions and shaping results by presenting the facts in an incomplete and selectively biased manner. I respect your right to criticism, but this is not fair criticism. I am disappointed in you, Paidrag.

[Padraig18]

112. I'm disappointed in the DEAFENING SILENCE....

...of some Clark supporters who, in the past, have publicly proclaimed their intent to 'call down' their fellow supporters who post flame bait; I have consistently done so with fellow Dean supporters who do this, but apparently 'civility' has been interpreted to mean a one-way street with a huge "Kick Me!" sign on the back of the Dean campaign.

Like my candidate, I push back when I'm pushed; if any of you would prefer to not see postings like this in the future, then I would suggest some aggressive, pro-active measures to reign in certain over-the-top supporters of YOUR preferred candidate which are commensurate with my own.

Have a nice day.

[RandomUser]

115. So then you decided to do a push poll and join in the nastiness?

I try to stay out of threads bashing other candidates. That has been my policy for a very long while now, and I try to adhere to it. As a matter of fact, your previous positive behavior encouraged me to adopt that policy and not start or contribute to Dean bashing threads or give them kicks or replies. Judging from this thread, evidently, policies change....

Note, I am not taking issue with your posting a thread critical of Clark. We should all be allowed to criticize candidates if we wish. If you choose to change your policy and go the negative route, that is your prerogative. I am taking issue with the fact that the you've decided to do a push poll based on deliberately incomplete information. You may wish to defend Dean, and that is all well and good. But there is a difference between defending and attacking, and yet a further difference between honest criticism and a push-poll based on incomplete information to mislead the voters.

If you have an point of contention with Clark supporters who have stated they will "call down" their fellows, I suggest you PM them.

Have a nice day.

[Padraig18]

116. PM's have been ignored, or resulted in equivocation.

A little public reminder that 2 can play the game seems called for.

[RandomUser]

118. Questions for you

1) Are these people still with DU? Are they regular and frequent posters still? People do drift in and out of DU.

2) Have these people started doing smear threads and push polls on DU as you have? There is a difference between 1) "calling down" fellow supporters, 2) abstaining from those threads, 3) posting honest criticisms of another candidate, 4) posting a push poll or smear based on incomplete and/or misleading information.

3) And what of those of us who have followed your positive example and abstained from candidate bashing threads? Should we follow your example now and escalate the nastiness?

If you believe those you have PM'ed need a reminder, perhaps you should consider this a reminder that there are those of us who have abstained from Dean bash threads who could just as easily contributed to them.

[Padraig18]

122. Answers:

1.) Yes, and the ranks have even swelled.

2.) Yes, they have, something even a casual examination of GD-P2004 would reveal.

3.) War is hell; I'm tired of my fellow supporters being the ONLY ones 'civility' seems to be expected from. When I see some visible proof of public denunciation of certain over-the-top Clark supporters comensurate with my own public denunciations of certain over-the-top Dean supporters, I'll return to my previous posture. To date, I can think of exactly *O-N-E* Clark supporter who does so consistently, and he is laughed at, savaged and flamed by HIS fellow supporters, which is sad beyond belief.

This 'one-way civility' stuff is over, until I see some evidence that MY efforts to 'call down' bad behavior by Dean supporters are being reciprocated.

Have a nice day.

[RandomUser]

128. Note

There is a difference between not "calling down" fellow supporters and going out and doing smears. The specific individuals who have promised you this have posted smears, as you have? And the ranks of those who promise you this, and then post smears, have swelled?

As I stated before,

There is a difference between 1) "calling down" fellow supporters, 2) abstaining from those threads, 3) posting honest criticisms of another candidate, 4) posting a push poll or smear based on incomplete and/or misleading information.


So you are saying people have gone from (1) to (4)? And that is your justification for doing so? I have no trouble with you going from (1) to (3). It's the (4) I take issue with.

Should everyone who is not in (4) now follow you and migrate to (4), simply because you dislike the fact that they're not (1)?

And your fellow supporters are hardly the only ones being "civil." Saying Dean supporters are the only civil ones on DU would be greeted with laughter and disbelief from the supporters of the other candidates (Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards, Clark, et al). And if you can't see the problem in making such a statement, I'm not sure I can help. I would say that all groups have their civil and less than civil people, this is true of every candidate's supporters on this board.

Have a nice day.

[Padraig18]

130. You misunderstand.

I never said my fellow supporters were the only ones BEING civil; what I said was that my fellow supporters seem to be the only ones civility is expected from. BIG difference.

Secondly, this is not a push poll; it is a legitimate question with a completely FACTUAL basis. I'm sorry that some people are uncomfortable with that, but that's how life is: you pays your money and you takes your chances.

The leap from 1 to 4 is nothing more than a very public recognition of the hypocrisy that has bloomed here in the last month; there were 19 (not literally) threads here yesterday calling on Gov. Dean to 'renounce' this or that which were literally wedged in between two pieces of flame bait aimed squarely at Gov. Dean, one above and another below. Oddly enough, none of the flame-baits contained a single word of even modest disapproval from any but ONE--- ONE--- Clark supporter, an individual I have come to admire.

Want to help make threads like this one go away? You can, and I've said repeatedly how to accomplish that objective.

Have a nice day.

[RandomUser]

135. It is a push poll

because it asks for a vote after presenting partial information (emphasis on partial) that influences the voter towards a specific choice. If you had added the fact that Clark had also voted for Clinton and Gore, then it would be an honest poll.

And I said before that I try to stay out of threads bashing other candidates, and I don't intend to enter one any time soon. I refuse to be a part of such a thread. I'll also note that Clark bashing threads do not have lots of righteous Dean supporters "calling down" their fellow supporters either.

If you feel your efforts at "calling down" fellow supporters are not reciprocated, perhaps you should stay out of threads bashing other candidates, just as I do. Don't even click on them, like I try not to because I prefer not to smear other candidates or contribute to those discussions.

Or take a break from DU, like I periodically do, to get away when it gets too intense.

[NV1962]

119. Kick

me, if you want, Padraig.

I saw that one, and was deliberating whether to respond or not.

In the end, I thought it was an expression of disappointment in another person - a personal opinion about another person. Not in my court, I thought. My apologies for not jumping in.

I think it's also fair to acknowledge that the premise of your poll is, um, interesting, considering the number of Democratic candidates that fit the question, and certainly noting the absence of a clarification as to the current affiliation of that, um, hypothetical candidate. Unless of course you espouse the intention of exploring opinions among progressives concerning George W Bush. Not directly plausible, but then again 90+ votes for option #1 hint at a conservative invasion, right?

All that circumstance may well have played a part when I first saw this poll, and thought "hmmmm, not playing nice" and winced and went on, without posting that opinion.

On the other hand, things are heating up a tad in here, on DU. Bad vibes.

Let's knock it off. I don't think you "played nice" with the poll, and I don't think expression of "disappointment" (whether false, phony or simply rhetoric - hehe) consistitutes "an attack."

Honest, I like much of your other stuff much better.

And now I'm off to bed. Good night, Padraig.

[wyldwolf]

117. Clark's rise in national and primary polls... Clark's rise at DU!

Clark eases to second place in New Hampshire...

but.... Clark voted for Reagan....

Clark gains nationally...

but... Clark .... spoke at a Republican fundraiser!

Clark continues to lead in DU polls. Anti-Clark polls continue to disappoint he/she who created the polls....

But here's a picture of Clark in Ratko Mladic's hat!

Dean had secret energy meetings like Cheney did...

But ... but... Clark's a WAR CRIMINAL! Milosevic says so!

Dean and supporters get busted for dirty campaign tricks...

But... But... Clark ... (sniff) Clark voted for Reagan!

You've already said that!

So? I'm saying it again!

Dean's handlers reign in his "shoot from the hip" style in so they don't have to keep surgically removing his foot from his mouth...

But.. hey... did you see this picture of Clark wearing Ratko Mladic's hat?

Yeah, the first 50 times you posted it...

Dean wanted to make Vermont a corporate htax haven for corporations

...but... did I already say Clark voted for Reagan? uhhh... I don't care that Dean said Cheney is a model VP. I don't care that I side with Milosevik against Bill Clinton and Wesely Clark and the Hague. I don't care if Dean thinks Bush is doing a fine job on terrorism. I don't care Dean had secret energy meetings like Cheney and sealed his records like Bush. I don't care that he is A+ rated by the NRA and had a lousy environmental record in Vermont! All these polls are WRONG! You can't trust them! Clark isn't really popular! The media is pushing Clark. The media hates Dean! DU has been inflitrated by Clark supporters and their 1000+ post count is a ruse! It's ROVE I tell ya! ROVE! I'm going to show everyone OVER AND OVER what kind of man Clark REALLY is... blah blah blah...

[webkev]

120. brilliant

Dean supporters are very hypocritical
maybe we should go crying to Terry Mcauliffe?
and a few days later start handing out slime pamphlets?

It gets harder and harder each day to envisage Dean winning

[NV1962]

121. Funny

really, I chuckled.

But Padraig isn't part of the more insidious Clark-bashing crowd you suggest - not according to my observation, at least.

[Padraig18]

123. You're right, I'm not.

The fact that I did post this should send up a red flag to any objective observer here; the question posed in the poll is irrelevant, frankly, but why I felt the need to post it should have some REAL alarm bells going 'Ding, ding, ding!' in some folks' brains.

[WI_DEM]

124. if it comes down to Bush and another GOP lite

and certainly someone who voted for Reagan and Nixon and only became a Democrat last year--I might have to hold my nose and vote for the GOP-lite, but then again I might just see how the campaign turns out and if it is a campaign between Dumb (Bush) and Dee (Clark) may vote Green. I'm not 100% sure what I would do.

[LTR]

125. Hell, I preferred Reagan over Mondale

Didn't vote for him, since I was only 16.

My first presidential vote was for Dukakis over Bush I. Not proud of that at the time, since I thought Dukakis was a flake. But I saw him as the lesser of two evils. That and the the Horton ad, among other tactics, offended me.

If the Republicans can welcome former Dems like Reagan, Norm Coleman and Ben Nighthorse Campbell to their party with open arms, why can't we? Would you rather drive them to the other side, or bring them over?

I really don't like this elitist attitude that permeates the Democratic party. If any Repug crosses over to our side, I say 'Welcome to the paty!'

[edzontar]

129. Tell us why, please. I was PROUD to support Mondale

Against that monster.

[LTR]

134. I thought he was obnoxious

And a little flaky.

Keep in mind, I was 16 at the time. Things change.

Does that make me a bad Democrat?

[edzontar]

126. I Voted AGAINST Reagan TWICE..so i have a problem...

The election of Reagan in 1980 was the beginning of a terrible phase in our history which has continued to impact the decline of this nation to the present day.

Clark is older than me and was certainly more experienced.

Yet he voted for that right-wing, minority-scapegoating, war-mongering piece of garbage.

NOTED: Many newcomer Clark supporters have indicated above that they have "no problem" with Clark's voting pattern of supporting despicable Repukes.

This makes me question the extent and depth of his supporters' commitment to the Democratic party, to progressive values, and to the defeat of Bush.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

132. That was 20 years ago. 60% of the population voted for him.

Including me pre-conversion to the Democratic Party. If I could take it back - I would.

[edzontar]

133. Some us figured it out a lot earlier...

And I think that DOES make a difference when it comes to presidential politics.

[Kolesar]

144. 60% of the Voters, not necessarily 60% of the population

[CivilRightsNow]

136. No, and with all his flip flopping on dem votes...

Ill never trust that he actually did vote dem in the cases of Clinton and Gore.

Sometimes he says he didnt get around to voting.. sometimes he says he thinks he may have voted for x... yadda yadda.. of course, till he realized he couldnt have voted all rethug and been kosher with the amount of actual democrats he is gonna need to get the nomination.

Im ashamed that so many of my party have been bowled over by this crap. I am saddened that this is truly a republican lite party if he gets the nomination.. and Ive applied for Visa in 5 other countries incase it happens. I will not be a part of his war machine nor let the people I love go down with the stupidity of the herd currently of voting age.

Unjust war? You aint seen nothing yet. Mark my words. This man knows nothing but war.

[Padraig18]

137. A final observation:

I hope that certain folks will see the results of this poll and realize that the candidate that they support has a substantial vulnerability, and perhaps recognize the truth in the old adage that 'people who live in glass houses should not throw stones'.

We now return to our regularly-scheduled programming.

[youngred]

138. and don't forget CLINTON twice

and Al Gore if I'm not mistaken. past is past, please note that as of 92 his voting schema changed to Democratic.

One is entitled to make changes in their political opinion

[Padraig18]

139. True, but one is NOT entitled to escape scrutiny of one's FULL record.

Just ask a Dean supporter, if you doubt that that's true.

[youngred]

142. This is true

but consider that many prominant members of this site, commited dems who have served as moderators here voted for reagan or supported him.

I know that the full record ought to be scrutinized and will be endlessly torn apart (unless your name is Bush) in the media and among your rival's supporters, but Clark seems to have legitimately made a change of opinion about how he wishes the world would work.

There are many issues I have of johnny-come-lately-ness out of clark but I don't necessarily think this is it though.

[Padraig18]

143. His voting record doesn't actually bother me much.

It should be pretty clear at this point, after the number of nice things I've said about Gen. Clark and the number of times I've risen to his defense here, that i don't personally think this is a 'big deal'. My entire point, frankly, was to deflate some of the self-righteous, hypocritical gas bags who insist on attacking Governor dean over the most petty, unrelated garbage and yet cry 'foul' when legitimate factual issues about THEIR candidate are raised.

You see, blatant hypocrisy just sticks in my throat, for some odd reason...

:)

[youngred]

145. fair enough in my book

I try and keep my criticism's positive and relevant to strategy not the character assassination of the pukes.

cheers and may the bes man or woman win

[Padraig18]

146. Absotively!

As I said earlier in one thread, we now return to our reghularly scheduled programming. *grin* :)

[Lurking Dem]

140. Hell, I SLEEP with a Dem who voted for Reagan.

I'll have no trouble voting for one. There were LOTS of them, after all.

[edzontar]

141. Kicking because this is so REVEALING

nt

[Snivi Yllom]

147. i dont know what to make of this

good or bad?

[phillybri]

149. You realize Reagan was a Democrat early in his career, don't you?

:shrug: