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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:32 AM
Original message
The secret white world, according to some minorities
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 11:35 AM by Honeycombe8
The Gates incident has reminded me of a skit that Eddie Murphy did once on SNL. He is made up as a white person, and goes through his day, to show the audience the "secret" world of the white person. Like any Eddie Murphy skit, it was pretty funny. He goes to the store, and when he reaches into his pocket to pay, the other customer in the store leaves, and the white clerk signals to him that he doesn't have to pay for the item. The white clerk indicates '''' you know, between us....you don't pay. Then Murphy goes on to do other things, and when no one else is looking, he gets favored treatment all along because he is white.

Sometimes I think that some minorities think something not too far from that skit. The skit was funny because it was so not reality, but maybe a tad close to how some may envision reality for white people.

It is true that minorities are hassled by cops every day. But it is also true that thousands of whites are hassled by cops every day...because of how they're dressed, who they are, where they live, or who they aren't (Harvard professors or wealthy people, for instance). I'm a white woman, but I've had cops be really mean to me just giving me a speeding ticket. You'd have thought I'd just run over some kid intentionally. Despite my being respectful and cooperative, too.

Having white skin doesn't mean we float through life without difficulty or hassles or enjoying some regal status. Despite all past Presidents being white, that hasn't seemed to have helped any of us regular, white people get paid more or have better parents or get a better education. If we're rude to policemen, we can expect to be treated accordingly. Here in Texas, you'd be arrested if you yelled at a cop. I don't know if the charge would stick, but they'd slap handcuffs on you for that.

Ava Gabor, another rich person who thought she could treat a lowly working officer disrespectfully by slapping him, found herself arrested. As did Mel Gibson, Robert Downey Jr., Sean Penn, and a whole host of rich white people.

Every day, thousands of white people land in the slammer, and are stopped and given traffic tickets or scrutinized through secret cameras in stores if they dawdle too long on one aisle. I can imagine that the minority person may be scrutinized a bit longer and harder, but they would scrutinize all of us. There's no white ticket out of being watched, scrutinized, hassled, and having to comply with rules and requests by the authorities.

Every day, minorities are hassled even more than white people are. I get it. But the Gates incident was not one of those occasions. It does a disservice to the real incidents to try to compare the Gates incident to the others. Gates....a wealthy Harvard professor, is not a young black man dressed in hip hop fashion who is hassled daily by the police. Not even close. Gates just flew off the handle, and the way I see it, thought he was too important to have to comply with a working person's request, and of course, he no doubt has some trauma from his experiences as a young man, that he revisited on this new person who was doing nothing more than his job. Older folks can be like that. That's why older folks are slow to accept gay marriage, mormons as Presidents, women as equals. It's just hard for them to move into a new century.

I will admit, though, that women in general, of any color, probably get gentler treatment from authorities, as long as they're respectful or act reasonably. But maybe it's because we women are more likely to behave reasonably with figures of authority than men?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. the last line of your post triggers all kinds of shit for me.
you may want to really think about what you just said.

:shrug:


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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. You may want to watch some science documentaries about testosterone...
and how it affects behavior.

It is not opinion so much, as an effect of the hormones in one's body. Women have both testosterone and estrogen, but not much testosterone, which accounts for their tendency to be less violent than men.

It's interesting stuff.

There are also documentaries about the two genders as school kids, and their behavior, and how often teachers call on them because of their gender, etc.

Very intersting stuff.

Education is a good thing. The Discovery Channel and The Learning Channel are two good sources of documentaries.
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Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. The irony of you lecturing someone on the importance of education; that's rich. nt
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
101. for most people submission is a learned behaviour-
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 10:48 PM by Bluerthanblue
testosterone and estrogen aside.

Don't mess with a mother bear, or get between a mother the babies of most animals.

You may think women 'get off easier' than men. That ain't necessarily so. Think about it for a while.

Ask yourself why?

And if women "get off" when we've really done something wrong, is that really doing us a favor? Or could it be teaching us to count on our ability to manipulate men to avoid being held accountable???

As a woman, I disagree with your opinion on many levels. But your last sentence of your OP just ....:nuke:...

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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
148. Well, when women are accused of being "bitchy" or "evil" during
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 03:34 PM by Kalyke
"that time of the month," the fact is that our estrogen levels decrease and our testosterone levels increase, effectively meaning that we're acting like men.

So, men... that behavior... well, it's how you act ALL THE TIME, so give us a week of slack.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Women just get hassled by authority - cops, car repair facilities, etc. in different ways. nt
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
12.  Two weeks ago I got a ticket for going through a YELLOW light by a male cop.
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 12:00 PM by no_hypocrisy
Yeah, we all know it's not illegal unless a cop is colorblind (ophthalmologically). At least he was gender neutral. Anyone could have received my ticket.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. In VA you get ticketed for going through a yellow light. nt
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. You don't read very well do you? n/t
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I was an English major. What do YOU think? nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
These Eyes Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. …
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I really don't think I can take much more of this. The headline alone made me lightheaded. The apologists just will not let this go! And they just keep digging a deeper hole for themselves.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. Even Bob Jones University offers an English Major.
Having a degree means you have an acquaintance with the written word in English. Doesn't make you enlightened.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
105. definititely not, then.
that settles that.
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. you are exactly right
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
95. Believe me when I tell you that everyone here is shocked (SHOCKED!) that you agree with the OP
:eyes:
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. You have got to be kidding!
Unrecommended
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. The concept of institutional prejudice doesn't seem to be as universally understood here
as I thought it was.

There is a real problem when the person with privilege (in this case, white privilege) defines what is "reasonable". The fact that some white people get arrested doesn't make life even in this country for minorities.

You may not be aware of what advantages you (and I) benefit from everyday, because we've always had them. It's like water to a fish. If you took the fish out of water, he would see abruptly what is missing. A support he has always taken for granted.


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Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Your white denial makes you feel better, I'm sure, but
as a "white" person who has made it a point to educate myself on the experience of the victims of racism in this country, you embarrass me. "Life is hard for white people, too" is such a dismissive, "Get over it" attitude to have and frankly, it makes me angry. My impression is you think you know everything, don't have a thing to be sorry about and haven't even tried to understand.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Clearly you didn't read the OP carefully.
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 12:19 PM by burning rain
The overcompensating "I'm the most ferocious white critic of whites" routine is tedious and pitiful.
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Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Oh, I read it carefully enough. You're right, tedious and pitiful describes the OP perfectly. nt
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Silly attempt at spinning my reponse.
~
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Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Oh, and I never claimed to be the most ferocious of white critics, but my point
is that without making the effort to educate ourselves, as white people, one can never hope to understand.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Now, *that's* a good point.
Good job walking it back, as they say.
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Leo The Cleo Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. BINGO
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
96. Leo, I've been meaning to tell you that your posts lately have been ON POINT
Many have noticed and you have gotten serious props by alot of folks here.

Too bad you don't have a donor star or I'd be sending you one of my "Please come hang out in AAIG! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=258" invitations! :)
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #96
116. Not too many people hang out there, but I love that site. I check in
occasionally, the site is very informative.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
115. You now have a gold star. Welcome to DU
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #115
120. What a sweet thing to do! How lovely of you to donate for Leo
:toast:
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Good post, and I thought of that SNL skit just looking at your headline.
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 11:56 AM by burning rain
Just don't expect any plaudits from the "hastier than thou to condemn any white as racist, even with no evidence" crowd.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. LOL--I did the exact same thing!
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 12:18 PM by rocktivity
I thought of the Eddie Murphy skit, too--after he got a free paper, he got on a bus full of white people, and a party broke out!

:party:
rocktivity
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
132. You actually agree with the OP?
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 10:26 AM by spiritual_gunfighter
I am always surprised (even though I shouldn't be by now) at the amount of people on DU who have lived their lives in the shelter of their own being, not able to see the world around them.

I lived half of my life in the deepest south where racism was a way of life instilled in every white child at a very early age, then in my early 20's moved to one of the most racially diverse areas of the Chicago inner city. I have seen what the spectre of racism can do and I marvel at people like the OPer and you basically agreeing with it.

I suggest taking a look outside your own existance and seeing the world as it really is, not as what you perceive it to be. Institutionalized racism is as real as can be, and anyone who thinks "white people suffer from the same slings and arrows as blacks and hispanics" just isn't paying attention.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #132
142. There are degrees and kinds of "agree."
I thought the OP had, besides the humor, some insight that Americans, whatever their skin color, have more of a common base of experience than many (especially at DU) seem to think. The OP explicitly recognizes that on balance minorities get it rougher from police than whites. It doesn't address institutional discrimination; but that can be done in another post. Good day to you, my pious little friend. I hope you've enjoyed patting yourself on the back for being better than an imagined shit-thick provincial bigot.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Reread my post n/t
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's kind of like how Canadians think about United Statesians. They see a design
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 11:52 AM by Captain Hilts
and unity of purpose that really is not there. It's a case of overwhelming numbers that creates an advantage that is so pervasive we don't even know it's there.

"We just think of you all as being like Texas or Detroit."

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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
13. Crowley flew off the handle, too--why can't anyone in the media admit that?
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 12:20 PM by rocktivity
Once Gates showed his ID and proof of address, Crowley should have gone on his way. Instead, he ordered Gates outside to punish him for "flying off the handle" with a phony disorderly conduct bust. So what if the charges were dropped--the real aim was to "remind" Gates who has the "real" power. Not ethical, not professional, not good community relations. Obama's remarks were unfortunate only in the sense that it provided Crowley and the media with a weapon of mass diversion.

:headbang:
rocktivity
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think most people agree on that. After seeing the i.d. he should have left and should have
given his i.d. when asked by Gates.

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Officer Crowley said his name
several times, but Professor Gates was too busy yelling and accusing to hear him....As far as his badge numbe goes...it is right there, ON HIS BADGE, for anyone to see. He was in full uniform at that house.

And see my post a little above. The officer did turn around and began to leave. Professor Gates followed him outside continuing to yell and accuse him of racism the whole way.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. There is no evidence whatsoever that Crowley did that.
He has business cards in his pocket. Why didn't he just hand one to Dr. Gates? Because he since he first got to the house, he was trying to get Gates outside where he could arrest him.

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
86. And you were where in the house?
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 07:54 PM by polmaven
You seem to know EXACTLY what happened every moment, so I assume you must have been there...oh, and you know exactly what weas in everybody's minds too...so maybe you weren't actuall there...just psychic!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. So you have no real rebuttal, do you?
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. It isn't really possible
to rebut absurdity.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. That's what I thought. Nada.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. That's right!
There is just no way I can answer made up s**t in a rational way, so I will not eve try.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. There is no evidence whatsoever that Crowley identified himself.
You're doing a good job of going with made up shit as long as you agree with it.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #98
131. there is evidence that he tried to- but
only after being asked, and even then, Crowley's own report (which is the evidence) cites reasons why Prof.Gates probably didn't hear what was being said.- so even Crowley is admitting in a round-about way that Gates didn't know who he was.

I don't know why it's so important to defend Crowley...???- He very clearly did NOT handle the situation as well as he could have, as evidenced by the fact that the incident ended up with his making an arrest that didn't need to happen, and which couldn't have stood up in a court of law.- so???

The need some folks on here have to make this incident acceptable, makes me sad.

:hi:
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #131
135. It is important to defend Crowley
because even on DU there are people that are more apt to believe the white police officer than the black professor. Some of the most staunch liberals are as racist as can be and many times not knowingly.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #135
137. I guess I'd
need to accept the sad, ugly truth of that.

And work towards change.

It isn't going to change on it's own.
Thanks for your reply.
:hi:
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #131
144. No one is trying to make the incident acceptable
that's just spin. The problem with this whole situation is reading something into it that it is not.

Yes, both Crowley and Gates were acting like fools. Yes, both should have backed off. Yes, the incident should have been handled differently. But, the arguments are not about the incident, it's about what was in the minds of those involved.

We have absolutely no proof that racism was involved on "either" side. And yet, racism has been shouted to the rooftops, that THIS is the cause of the incident. Again, there is no proof. Crowley did not prod Gates into anger because Gates was black, and Gates did not prod Crowley to anger so he could become a spokesman for the black man.

It was a stupid incident that happens all too often, but is never reported in the news. The only reason it was reported is because Gates was a black Harvard professor and Crowley was a white cop. I can guarantee you, that if it had been any other combination, it would have never made the news.

Live in a poor, racially diverse, area like I do, and you will see that cops (and they come in all colors and genders) don't treat you any different than the next person. You disrespect them, and they are more than likely disrespect you. We all tend to forget that cops are people too, and sometimes they have a bad day. Make it hard for them to do their job, and you might get handcuffed.

zalinda
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #93
103. why is it so important to you to try and prove that Crowley didn't
fuck this up???

What dog do you have in this fight?


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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #103
121. Probably because I think
the knee jerk reaction to calling him a racist because he responded to a 911 call of a possible break in is outrageous.

And because the preponderance of the evidence says he is not just a rogue cop on a witch hunt for African American men to arrest.

And because the inference that anyone who even HINTS that Professor Gates may have had some blame in this is also being called racist...if not outright, by implication.

THAT is the "dog" I have in this fight.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #121
128. you'd be a LOT more believable if you didn't exaggerate and
over-react. Your defense of Crowley (to me) seems as dis-proportionate to the situation as Gates' response to being thought to be a criminal in his own home. :shrug: No one with any credibility has accused Crowley to be on a 'witch hunt' for AA men to arrest. As for denying that Gates' behaviour was perfect, I've consistently agreed that Prof. Gates didn't act well in this incident- as did PRES OBAMA - I don't feel that makes me a 'racist' and anyone who labeled me as such wouldn't bother me at all. Because I know that it is a totally baseless claim.

That's a big part of the point of all this. If Sgt.Crowley was so upset and troubled to be called a racist- (but knows himself not to be one,) where is the real offense? People get upset when the are 'called out'- about an aspect of themselves that they don't feel comfortable with, or try to hide or deny. If you read the report, and really pay attention to what is being said, it was more the lack of submission that really got Crowley's panties in a twist. And sadly, he didn't react well to that himself- A conciliatory, calming response might very well have diffused the incident quickly. But for his own reasons, that isn't what the Sgt. was able or willing to offer.

As for being backed up by fellow officers- well that is simply SOP. The blue wall is just that. Listen to the remarks of the AA Officer who lists reasons as to why Gates responded as he did, even while saying that he supports his fellow Officer- (you stick together publicly regardless) Had Sgt. Lashley been the responding Officer, I sincerely doubt that this situation would ever have gotten to the point it did.

My interest in this incident is very personal. I've experienced racism....it isn't easy something to be dismissed lightly- denied- ignored or excused. It's not a thing of the past- it's still here, it's real, and it is a cancer on our society and our world.

peace~
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #86
133. No
but you are stating that YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AT EVERY MOMENT. The truth is none of us do, only the people that were there. Crowley and Gates' stories are completely different. So before you malign someone for claiming they don't know what really happened, admit that neither do you.
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dogtag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. Oh no, polmaven,


haven't you heard a million times that Professor Gates was lured outside? Sgt. Crowley whipped out some catnip and the rest is history.

As a life long liberal, I try to be fair and not spout off until I hear some facts. If my President calls Sgt. Crowley a nice guy, I'll withhold judgment.

I don't know the Professor, but I know people who do. As much as his work is admired, he apparently has an ego as big as all outdoors. A few years ago, he was pissed off because people in France didn't recognize him. (Sorry, I don't have a link)

At this point, I don't feel that this incident had anything to do with race and I'm not sure how the teachable moment can be framed. I trust my president to make lemonade. If anyone, he can. Yes, he can.

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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
67. You've decided to side with Crowley, but it's not the story Gates tells.
I suspect the truth is somewhere in between the two versions.

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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
97. Even Crowley's police report doesn't say what you're trying to say here
What's the purpose of this kind of revisionism?
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. If you will READ the accounts
carefully, after seeing, finally, the proper ID with photo AND address, and after finally realizing that he was not going to be able to calm the professor down, Office Crowley turned and began to leave. Professor gates FOLLOWED HIM OUT THE DOOR.

The professor FOLLOWED HIM!!!! He was not, at that point, or at ANY point, actually, ORDERED out side. Get your facts straight, please before continuing to make false accusations of racism against people!
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I've said that Gates clearly over-reacted. He did. You don't return 'attitude' given you by a cop.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
78. I was agreeing with you....
except on the point about him not leaving. - Like President Obama, though, maybe I could have said it more clearly. :hi:
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. I have read both Gates' public statement and Crowley's police report
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 01:49 PM by rocktivity
and decided that the Gates' version of the story has more in common with common sense. Gates followed Crowley outside because Crowley did not respond to Gates' request to provide his name and badge number. Unless a cop is legally obligated to provide his name and badge number when asked for it, Crowley should have just kept going--unless he WANTED Gates to react negatively by ignoring him, and thus "justifying" the disorderly conduct bust.

:headbang:
rocktivity
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
81. So how does
"Gates followed Crowley outside because Crowley did not respond to Gates' request to provide his name and badge number." turn into "Instead, he ordered Gates outside to punish him for "flying off the handle" with a phony disorderly conduct bust"

I mean...those two claims have exact opposite meanings.

And, Crowley DID state his name, but Gates was yelling so loudly, he didn't hear it. I another post, I pointed out that, since Crowley was in full uniform, his badge number was right there ON HIS BADGE. All Gates had to do was LOOK at it, while they were both in the house.

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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Gates probably could have copied Crowely's name and badge number
if Crowley had stood still long enough. And it most likely would have diffused the situation.

:headbang:
rocktivy
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. And you were where in that house
to know HOW long Crowly stood still? He may have been able to hear the name and read the badge number if he had shut up long enough.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #81
122. Have you ever, even one time, personally asked a cop
to remain still so you could read his badge number and name? Have you done that? Have you ever written down a single badge number without telling the cop you were doing so?
Do you have any expreience at all in recording badge numbers of officers of the law?
I offer that if you have not done these things, it is not in your realm to talk about the ease with which it is done.
When you say you want a badge number, the cops often see that as aggression. They are supposed to comply, but they do not always do so, and they rarely do so without high blown attitude. Most of them see asking for their id as a gauntlet being thrown at them.
The opinions of those who watch Law and Order for training are to me irrelevant. Just saying. Now, how many badge numbers have you recorded?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
72. even if Prof. Gates did as you claim- why didn't Crowley keep walking?
Why didn't he get his ass back in his car an LEAVE???

The University police were there- they had jurisdiction- Crowley had NO NEED, or reason to stick around and keep the situation blazing.

It's clear there was friction between the two men- There was at least one other officer with Crowley, and he and Gates weren't having a shouting match- Crowley should have DEFUSED the situation by removing himself from it.

HE was the "authority figure"- he WENT BACK UP ONTO GATES' PORCH after warning/(THREATENING) Gates with arrest, to instead for keeping his cool, and letting Gates blow off steam. EPIC FAIL as far as being able to manage a volitile situation-

you cannot state with ANY actual factual PROOF that Crowley's actions had no racist motivation.

:shrug:
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. And you cannot state
with ANY factual proof otherwise.

The University police were on the scene, but this was not ON CAMPUS, so no, they did NOT have jurisdiction. They were called because Cambridge police thought they probably knwo Gates, and may be able to help.

From where are you seeing that Crowley "WENT BACK UP ONTO GATES' PORCH"?

None of us know just what Gates was yelling. All of the officers seem to agree that he was, indeed, causing a disturbance.

BOTH parties have some blame here.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. Yes they did have jurisdiction, they were called by CROWLEY
and they had arrived- read the police report. That is where I got the info that Crowley was out of Gates' house.

Read it yourself-

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17581906/CPDIncidentReport9005127

Crowley was descending the stairs- and when you read this, bear in mind that Off. Crowley KNOWS he has to make his actions appear as good as possible, and Gates' as BAD as possible- That's reality.

I'm not saying that Prof. Gates didn't lose his cool and didn't over-react. He wasn't the person performing "his job" - he was a civilian, who was having an altercation with a police officer in his own residence, after returning home from a trip.

There ARE people who know what Gates was yelling- and even if the other Officers agree that Gates was causing a disturbance, there are those who have spoken out saying the "both parties" didn't handle it as they should have.

Gates wouldn't have any chance of prevailing in a case against Crowley if Crowley hadn't escalated things HIMSELF- by hand-cuffing and arresting a tired, distraught man, on his own property, because he had the audacity to commit "Contempt of Cop".
If calling someone a 'racist' is so offensive to Sgt.Crowley, maybe he needs to do some more work before he goes around 'training' fellow officers about "Racial Profiling"-

:shrug:
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #100
127. Simply because they were called to the scene
does not mean thay had jurisdiction. THIS DID NOT TAKE PLACE ON CAMPUS. Crowley called them because he thought they would know the professor, and may be able to assist in calming him down.

That does NOT give them JURISDICTION. Their ONLY jurisdiction is on the Harvard CAMPUS.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #127
141. you may want to read this-
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yes, everyone has been treated badly. But white people don't experience..
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 12:14 PM by Jade Fox
anything "like" racism.

It's not a matter of quantity of experiences. Racism is a whole other experience, one we white people have never had and never will.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Not true...
I grew up on the windward side of Oahu before the tunnels went in; if that doesn't bring any images to mind ask and I'll explain. I was one of 32 haole kids in my junior high school and the only one not from a military family. I certainly experienced racism directed at me and I have the scars (both mental and physical) to prove it. The difference was that I had a way to escape the effects of that racism, where racism in the bigger world is much harder to escape and in the mainstream US culture is probably inescapable.

To suggest that no white person has ever or will ever experience racism in any context misses the overall reality of racism.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
53. You could escape though, you had a way out and knew it as a child
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
91. Actually, I didn't know that I had a way out
I was a child, I didn't understand what was going on. All I new was that a majority of folks (who didn't look like me) were beating me up, stealing from me and excluding me from the majority culture, and that there didn't seem to be a damm thing about it that was my fault. Now that I look back at it it's clear that I did have a way out and that I benefited that when my parents moved to the mainland. At the time I all I knew was that things were tough on white kids who weren't part of a gang.

The fact that I was able to escape from the experience doesn't mean I didn't have the experience.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
56. You experienced racism because you were in the minority...
I was referring to the usual situation in the US where whites are the majority. Had I thought of it, I would have made that clear.

An essential part of racism is being a member of a disliked (currently or in the past) minority.

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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Missed it by *that* much..."
As a fellow English Major, I thought you'd appreciate a quote...

Here's another... and the point where I think your piece "went off the rails"
Every day, minorities are hassled even more than white people are. I get it. But the Gates incident was not one of those occasions. It does a disservice to the real incidents to try to compare the Gates incident to the others. Gates....a wealthy Harvard professor, is not a young black man dressed in hip hop fashion who is hassled daily by the police. Not even close. Gates just flew off the handle, and the way I see it, thought he was too important to have to comply with a working person's request, and of course, he no doubt has some trauma from his experiences as a young man, that he revisited on this new person who was doing nothing more than his job.


Specifically, the "Gates....a wealthy Harvard professor, is not a young black man dressed in hip hop fashion who is hassled daily by the police." sentence suggests the "template" of the minorities that "are hassled even more than white people are"... which you apparently "get"... as in acknowledge the truth of.
However, as you go on in the paragraph, you juxtapose this "template" with Dr. Gates... "the way I see it, thought he was too important to have to comply with a working person's request". I can't help but notice the adjectives you chose "he thought he was too important", and "a working person's request". I'm sure you realize that those choices of adjectives load your statement with implications... and create a classist opposition, which is liable to falsely, in my opinion, lure those who "self identify" as "not wealthy" into feeling obligated to side with Crowley against the "rich oppressor" Dr. Gates.

If you are going to try to reframe the whole incident in a "class warfare" frame, the least you could do is honestly and explicitly construct and point out the frame. The way that you have done it in this piece, on the other hand, suggests an insincerity of motive on your part which leads me to suspect that, for whatever underlying reason, your whole OP is actually a rather artfully constructed rationalization to justify a distaste you have for black people being wealthy.
Contrast your choice of adjectives to describe Dr. Gates with your descriptions of rich white people:
Ava Gabor, another rich person who thought she could treat a lowly working officer disrespectfully by slapping him, found herself arrested. As did Mel Gibson, Robert Downey Jr., Sean Penn, and a whole host of rich white people.

I notice that, while you do use the "treat a lowly working officer disrespectfully" set of adjectives to describe Ava Gabor's behavior, you don't actually go so far as to also assert that she thought she "was too important to have to comply", and as for the rest of them, there's nary a single word to disparage their uprightness of character.

Seeing all that, I think you might want to re-consider what it is about the furor over the arrest of Dr. Gates that is really bothering you...
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. As a woman, and a white, your post makes me very very sad...
sad that you haven't read enough history or have friends of color that you would understand what happens differently for them in the work place, shopping, vacationing, being in the world. I hope that you continue your search for understanding this deeply divisive and socially destructive issue. Our society has moved a LONG way from the riots and marches of the 60s, and our President is African-American. HOWEVER, we are not there yet.

As a middle-aged woman, I have seen all sorts of disparities in the work place for woman and people of color - involving salaries, who is included in important meetings, who gets the promotion as opposed to who deserves it... it's just become more subtle but the racism/misogynicism is still there and active.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. +1
Many white liberals get it, or at least try to understand.

The self imposed obtuseness of some is very depressing.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. +2
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
48. And she turns around and BLAMES Dr. Gates for his arrest
because in addition to knowing zip about him, she believes the white cop.

Holy cow. What a piece of work.
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Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
73. Rosesaylavee, I love you. n/t
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. That was nice!
:hug:
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
136. The OP is one of the saddest post I have read on DU
Not only does the OP believe that racism is the equivalent of whites having a bad day. She ends the post with saying that women usually get away with things men cant because they are women. Tell that to Lily Ledbetter.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #136
145. This post here may help you feel a bit more hopeful...
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thank you. recommended.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. What you're missing about being white
is that white people's thought don't immediately run to their own skin color when they are pulled over by a cop. We think: "crap, was I speeding?" or "did he see my cellphone?"

We don't immediately worry about whether the officer approaching us, with the gun holstered to his/her belt, might hate us solely for our skin color.

We have the privilege, as the majority race in this country and as the group which still institutionally holds power and wealth, NOT to worry about who we ARE in relation to the run-in with authority we are about to experience.

Sure, people of all races and ethnic origins get hassled by cops every day.

But white people don't have to spend the entire time they are engaging the authorities wondering whether that person is profiling them or not.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
30. That's a lot of verbal diarrhea to call Prof. Gates "uppity" n/t
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
34. Ava Gabor? LOL! n/t
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khal02 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. Epic Fail
There is too much "wounded White woman" fail in this post for me to even begin to address it all. When you have to reference an Eddie Murphy skit from the 1980s to support your theory, you know you have a weak argument. This whole episode has just proven to me that the vast majority of white people, including well meaning so called progressives, live in a truly alternative universe in which they don't have to and don't want to face the truths that blacks and latinos have to face on a daily basis.
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newinnm Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. "Epic Fail" What are you 12?
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 01:32 PM by newinnm
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khal02 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. No
I'm a 25 year old black woman who thought epic fail would be better than channeling my inner Joan Walsh and saying "that's mighty white of you." At what point in this entire situation do white people take a look around a realize that black people are having the same intense disgusted reaction to this situation and think maybe there's something they don't know and don't understand at play so it would be better to STFU instead of posting verbal diarrhea like this. I love how so many times when white people discuss race they say "i don't understand but" when there should be a period after "i don't understand." A visit to the black blogosphere would be really enlightening to a lot of people on this board because I'm convinced there are maybe 4 black people that post here and I won't be one for much longer.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. I prefer mighty white of you. The OP sucks. Please don't hold back.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. So do I. I've been known to use in unabashedly. n/t
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Seven posts in & completely disillusioned.
Alackaday! We hardly knew ye!
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
99. Khal, it only FEELS like four black people post here
And mainly that's because so many of us are so goddamned sick of the cluelessness and stupidity rampant in OPs such as this one that many have left this site altogether or take three aspirin and come to the site every 2 months for their Racial Cluelessness Fix.

No, there aren't very many of us but most that are here post in this forum - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=258. It has become (for me) an oasis in the sea of foolishness that is DU sometimes.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #50
138. What I got from the OP is
"White people have bad days too"=racism. Oh and women get away with things because they are women and everybody loves women. Quite possibly the saddest OP I have ever read on DU and I have read a lot of misguided posts. Racism is as real as can be in 2009, I grew up in central Louisiana where racism is a way of life, I now live in Chicago's inner city and it is here too. The OP is disgusting on so many levels and what is even more disgusting are the white liberals that agree with her.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
83. You will find that phrase
is used OFTEN here. I find it rather childish as well.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #83
139. PWNAGE n/t
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
104. FAILTACULAR
.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. bottom line is
that policeman fucked with the wrong black man.

end of story.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thank you for your assessment.....and please know this.....
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 02:11 PM by FrenchieCat
In the secret White world you describe, you are incorrect in how you describe how it works, because in reality, no one in it has to say anything.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8554298&mesg_id=8554298
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Leo The Cleo Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
43. Judging racism is best left in the hands of White People.
I suppose this is the intent of this post. I'll just leave the entire topic and interpretation of racism to white people. I guess you all have it under control.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
64. She can lecture me after she's been followed around a few
stores with two and three shopping bags in her hand FROM THE SAME STORE in which she's being followed. After her car has been illegally searched, stopped by police for bullshit like an air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror while 'other' folks have anything from dream catchers to chandeliers hanging from their mirrors, to name a few minor inconveniences.
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Leo The Cleo Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. We don't know what we've experienced
It's obvious that we are not aware of the experiences we have as black people. Our experiences with what we consider racism must be akin to seeing ghost. It's obvious we'd rather see these things than actually see what's happening. So, I'm going to just allow white people to tell me what my experiences are because I can't trust my own judgement. And who am I going to believe them or my our eyes? Of course the answer is "them."
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
46. There are no secret worlds
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 02:03 PM by Blasphemer
Racism and the disparity of experiences based on race is completely out in the open. After reading the first article about this incident, it did sound to me as though Professor Gates overreacted some and I was not immediately prepared to label it a racial incident. It was not until hearing Sgt. Crowley's statement about Gates's tone of voice that I concluded that race played a part in what happened - not the only part but I can't take race out of the mix in this incident. I do think it very unlikely that Crowley would have responded in the same way to a white professor's "tone" in the same situation. That does not mean that I think life for white america is a bed of roses. The intersection of race, class and gender makes very few truly privileged. However, I do know that if I changed nothing about myself aside from my race, my experiences would be significantly different. Being scrutinized for dawdling in a store is not the same as being followed by employees the entire time you shop from the moment you step in the door (even if those employees are also ethnic minorities). There are very real differences and acknowledging that and being angry about that doesn't mean that one is making unrealistic assumptions about what life is like for those who don't walk in their shoes. I've never had negative dealings with the police but my brother has to deal with it all the time when not doing anything wrong or being remotely belligerent. It's not wrong for him to assume that life is easier (not easy, easier) for me in some respects. It doesn't mean that he can't acknowledge that being a woman brings all sorts of other problems for me but it's understandable if he sees a disparity of treatment, under certain circumstances, based on gender. Just as I can see a disparity of treatment based on race and gender in my every day life.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
47. You can't be serious.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
54. Nope
I have been in stores where I didn't have to pay. Ive been in other stores where I had to pay a higher price based on gender/race. You are lucky to be able to be so naive.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
55. One more suggestion that may help your POV...
From what I can gather from your OP, your point of view has been developed from your own personal experience (white woman) and from watching SNL and a few documentaries on television. May I suggest you turn off the television and do some volunteering in a mixed community or for services that benefit a mixed community. I think you would start to understand why your post has upset so many here.
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Tutankhamun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
57. I am white with blonde hair. The police leave me alone.
I know it's because of the way I look. I aso know it's unfair.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. I love me the fail post feature!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Discrimination is all in the heads of colored people. Martin was wrong!
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
62. I know you've convinced yourself that what you wrote is
true and/or factual but your op is an epic fail. The mere fact that white celebrities bring it upon themselves to assault an officer with no fear of reprisal is indicative of a privileged mentality and not necessarily due to race but class.

As one poster on this thread alluded, you have no idea how you sail through life because you have no alternate frame of reference.
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
63. Black people know a lot more about the "white world" and white culture than vice versa
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 04:26 PM by Cali_Democrat
That's what happens when one group is a MINORITY.

The "white world" is no secret to blacks, however, the reverse is not true in many cases.

It's shocking how ignorant people are on DU.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. .... ah yep
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
65. What makes you *so* certain that what's going on here isn't at all inflected by race
It is no credit to acknowledge that racism, racial profiling, discrimination, etc. exist in general if every time a specific example comes up one's immediate response is to argue that people of color are simply wrong in identifying that as an example.

"Every day, minorities are hassled even more than white people are. I get it. But the Gates incident was not one of those occasions."

So what makes you so certain that what happened with Gates is "not one of those occasions"? Is it because Gates was dressed in slacks and a shirt rather than "hip hop fashion"? Because if that's the reason, then I believe you have a very shallow and limited understanding of the reality that minorities face in terms of harassment and discrimination. The clothes one wears do not provide immunity from harassment or discrimination.

Is it because Gates is financially successful? Because, again, I think that demonstrates a short-sighted view of what institutional racism is. The size of one's bank account does not provide immunity from harassment or discrimination.

Is it because Gates is well-educated and well-known, with a prominent position in the community? Again, short-sighted. Fame, education, and social prominence do not provide immunity.

Is it because (as I've seen a few other posters suggest), Gates studies African-American history, so he has a warped view of race relations? Because that's not just short-sighted, it's stupid beyond words.

Is it because the initial news reports all suggested that Gates was belligerent, etc.? Is it because the police report (from which those early news stories were drawn) said that Gates was tumultuous and suggests there was no reason for him to be so? Because if so, that demonstrates a lack of understanding of what police reports are, who writes them, etc.

Perhaps it's because, while you give lip service to believing in the existence of racism and discrimination in general, the idea of someone like Gates being subject to it in the specific makes you a bit too uncomfortable about the reality of race in America today.

Whatever the cause, it is exactly how significant numbers of DUers have reacted to damn near every topic that has come up with respect to racism over the years, from Michael Richards shouting the n-word at people in his audience and then talking about lynching, to the Jena Six, to last month's fiasco at a Philadelphia pool: "Sure, racism still exists, but this isn't really a good example of it."

It seems to me such posters are willing to admit that racism is real as long as everyone else promises to never, ever talk about it. In reality, it's just another way to get out of confronting the real problem.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Great post, fishwax.
:thumbsup:

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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. +1
:thumbsup:

Well said!
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #65
87. Excellent post! n/t
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
88. +1
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #65
114. +1
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #65
134. Wow- this should be a post of it's own-
very well said FishWax!

:hi:
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #65
149. Good post !
:thumbsup:
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
66. Channeling Harriet Christian? Prof. Gates is just another "inadequate black male" for you?
What's interesting is that I could have written the names of the DU'ers who agree with you, before you even wrote the o.p. It's the same bunch that constantly attack the president. My, my...DU has it's very own racists. Who woulda thunk it?

EPIC FAIL

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surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
74. I doubt that being "more likely to behave reasonably" ...
... has anything to do with women being treated differently than men. It's likely more a matter of being generally smaller and weaker, thus less of a physical threat.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. The Chinese Canadian loophole.
It's OK for you to call Obama an Uncle Tom because you are Wanxia Liao, a Chinese in Canada. Sounds like your complaint is that you haven't been able to acquire "House Servant" status for yourself. Thanks for sharing your unique blend of bitterness and bigotry.
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wanxialiao Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
94. Why my post deleted?
I wouldn't got into this mess had I ever admired Uncle Tom.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
79. That last sentence makes me go "WTF?"
Puhleeeese. I wonder how many women are RAPED by police officers?
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
102. this is the stupidest shit EVAR.
.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
106. Douglas Zeigler wasn't a young black man dressed in hip-hop fashion, either:
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/2008/05/10/2008-05-10_plainclothes_officers_in_trouble__didnt_.html

So even the NYPD's highest-ranking black officer can't catch a break.

As for the rest of your OP, I can't decide which is more evident -- your insensitivity or your ignorance.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
107. Thanks for your honest post. I think it will be very difficult for you
to understand what a person of color goes through in the Americas (not only in the US), but I do get your point and is valid to a certain extent- there are many common experiences between regular white folks and people of color who live in the same societies, and those experiences are the common ground we all should use as a basis to unite as fellow citizens and Americans.
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R. P. McMurphy Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #107
126. +1 n/t
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tinkerbell41 Donating Member (722 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
108. Read the whole post.
The last line really did it for me. Are you kidding??? I have absolutely NO desire to have any contact with the police. I am a White Woman. I am so distrusting, and frightened by their abuse of authority. I have done u-turns on highways doing 55 when spotting a checkpoint a mile or so ahead.
I have NO respect, haven't been pulled over for anything for 20+ yrs but I know I would be seething with rage, I would like nothing more than to kick in the teeth of any of the numerous authority figures I have dealt with in my 40 yrs on earth. They always find something wrong, talk down to you, make you seem stupid. The only reason I "behave" is because I don't want to deal with them and I'm not giving anyone my money. Bail, tickets whatever. I also call bullshit on Whites not enjoying some regal status. WE DO!! Complete and utter bullshit.
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
109. Epic!
Fail.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
110. I guess we can set up a Board of Official Racism
with insightful white people like Unka Pat to tell us what is actually bigotry.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. Yep. Only white folks can be trusted with such weighty duty.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
111. it always shocks me to hear of work-related racial incidents
I can honestly say in my entire career I've never worked anywhere where such behavior would be tolerted for one second - you'd be walked out the door
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
112. Yah! Damn oversensitive negroes!
:rofl:

Ya gotta love DUers.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
117. Is this a hit and run post? You need to defend your post!
Big Fail!!
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. Why? I don't need to listen to any more of her shit; it's utterly offensive. n/t
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 04:25 AM by vaberella
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #119
150. Vaberalla, what I meant was if a person has a crazy OP, he/she
should at least defend their point of view. I agree with you, her crap is very offensive.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
118. Are you channeling Buchanan?! What the FUCK do you know about Minorities?! Fuckin' Seriously?!
Jesus Christ! You have no clue to assume what we think....and by your statements above you have no fuckin' idea what we think!!! You're summarizing the mindset of minorities to a bloody Eddie Murphy SNL skit!!! Are you out your mind?!

Don't belittle our experience, don't marginalize our attitudes and don't bloody come on here and assume to "know us" so ridiculously that you can make these views seem like some sort of reality. Oh My God!! I think I'm too bloody pissed that I could spit. Shit!!

You have no idea what we go through and to say what you think we think and know. I'm 5'2", female, Black, and I look about 16 although I'm 29 and I have been treated like a pariah in many instances. You're in a way saying that when a White male fool about 65 came up to me and said, "I speak well," It was not an insult and when he further went on to ask me, "Where did I learn?" I shouldn't be insulted because really that's not racism. Since there are many Whites who probably have suffered the same thing. When a group has already been marginalized to speaking the language of apes and/or told in the past they don't "speak proper" English for decades in this society where our "language" so to speak is stigmatized and when I speak or sound a certain way----it's in a way a step up to be deemed "speaking well" there is a bloody call to be fuckin' pissed off.

Don't come on here and assume to think you have some damned clue...and you are actually doing what I think a lot of White people do----they think they know when they don't have a damned clue. They think they assume a "skit", a couple of well read books, and maybe a few talks with close Black friends says it all for them. Fuck your way of thinking and your entire statement. And as for the treatment of women in general----then you are most definitely NOT a BLACK, HISPANIC, or ASIAN (East/West) woman.
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #118
124. B.but it's Eddie Murphy!
She's not worth the anger. 'There is none so blind as he who will not see' as a not so clever individual told me a couple of days ago. The OP don't get it and she never will. I'm actually waiting for someone to bring up skits from Dave Chappelle.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. At the Chris Rock ones then at that point I'll leave the site.
Chris Rock has pissed me off at his allowance of the denigration of Black people in the public/entertainment realm.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
123. Your OP is filled with bullshit
Let us begin with the purely made up facts. Robert Downey Jr never assaulted a cop. He was never charged with any such thing. That is, no violent crime against anyone, at anytime.
Sean Penn has been arrested for assault on a photographer, and also for domestic assault when married to Maddona. As despicable as domestic violence is, factually it is not assault on a cop.
Gibson was drunk and disorderly and spouted all manner of racism and elitism. I can not stand him, but he also did not assault an officer.
Gabor slapped that guy, so that is one out of four you called corectly. The rest is stuff you made up. Stuff you made up. But why? To make a point that is fabricated, using grafted on celebrity arrest stories.
Even the checkable basic facts about living human beings are incorrect in your OP. That shows exactly how honest you are being with yourself and with others.
I can tell you this. More than one of the 'celebrities' you invoke would not take kindly to being lied about to make the point you are trying to make. This I know to be a fact. So it is wrong of you to do so. It is slander.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
129. Pat Buchanan is that you? n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
130. I agree, that is why it is stupid for the average white man to vote Repuke
Especially blue collar ones. The elite at the top has no intention of letting them in - they just use their race and gender to hint that they have a fair shot - and think they have an advantage over women and minorities, which they really do not have.

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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
140. Worst post ever n/t
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
146. What the hell? Seriously did you really say this?
"Despite all past Presidents being white, that hasn't seemed to have helped any of us regular, white people"

Seriously WTF did you just say? regular, white people????? As I read that, it sounds to me(a white person) as if you are implying that white people are regular people, and minorites are not. Are you really trying to say that minorities are irregular?

WTF?? Well that was my first WTF moment in your post. Are you also really suggesting that a minority will be treated differently if they dress differently?

"It does a disservice to the real incidents to try to compare the Gates incident to the others. Gates....a wealthy Harvard professor, is not a young black man dressed in hip hop fashion who is hassled daily by the police"

WTF, WTF
oh and WTF.


:puke:
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RepublicanElephant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
147. if someone has a terrible headache, i tend to believe them...
...without assuming that they're too sensitive.
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