Please Mr. Charlie, We're So Sorry We Complained About Driving While Black.

[Solomon]

This new "home while black" thing is so much worse. Can we go back to just driving while black? We didn't realize how good we had it.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Come on. Yes, the cops messed up. But, calling them there was basically legit.

[goddess40]

3. It's pretty sad the neighbors didn't recognize him

I'm not convinced they didn't call for nasty reasons. I hope I'm wrong but cops aren't the only racist people in the world.

[Buzz Clik]

6. I don't think this cop was racist. The neighbor was simply afraid and probably ignorant.

I agree that she should have recognized her neighbor; it's a sad testament to her that she thought that a 50-something professor and a driver in a suit and tie were a couple of garden variety thieves.

Is the cop a racist? Maybe, but not necessarily. He actions were wrong and motivated by a chip on his shoulder. Arresting Gates was way beyond reasonable. The cop should have left the second Gates produced his identification.

[mkultra]

35. it wasnt a neighbor

It was someone driving through.

[Cha]

66. REally?..'Cause I hadn't heard that and

it makes much more sense why someone would call.

[Buzz Clik]

94. Ditto. I heard conversation with Gates's lawyer, and he implied it was a neighbor.

A passerby would make sense and would give me more faith in Gates's neighbors.

[Raineyb]

11. The problem is what happened after the ID was shown

That was the police officer's cue to leave. If Professor Gates was white they would have apologized for disturbing him, explained why they'd come and returned to their car and went about their business. They did not and decided to use the bullshit "disorderly conduct" charge to spite Professor Gates because they didn't like what he was saying after he'd established that he lived in the house.

Why should this behavior be considered acceptable?

[Cha]

70. I think the cop had a big

freakin' ego problem and it was the perfect storm for it to be on full display..already said he wasn't going to "apologize" even though the charges were DROPPED.

[kestrel91316]

103. Correct. But arresting the good professor because he got legitimately

upset at his treatment was completely unwarranted.

[sui generis]

2. so. let me see if I understand this correctly.

A person was at the residence who opened the door, was NOT cooperative and initially refused to identify themselves to the police, investigating a possible burglary.

If that happened at my house, and the person at the door was not me, I would ask the cop to please beat the living shit out of the person, arrest them, taser them and then read them their rights, because that person, regardless of skin color, was indeed probably robbing my house!!!!

It was almost farcical. I don't agree with the arrest, following identification, nor the charges, but the situation could have been averted altogether if Professor Harvard didn't open the door, take the chip off shoulder and throw it at the cops who were there to protect his property.

What the hell.

[CBGLuthier]

4. You understand nothing.

and explaining it to you is impossible.

"chip on shoulder"?

A lifetime of being treated as black men are treated in this country summed up as "chip on shoulder"

Priceless.

[Solomon]

5. They will never get it.

They're too busy trying to find fault with Gates. Let me see, does he have free speech in his own home? I used to think so. Number two, did the cop have a right to arrest him? No.

Sad to say, if the cop had beat the shit out of Gates, we would be hearing the same thing. He would have deserved it, and the above poster goes to far as to say this.

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[sui generis]

28. also you putting words in my mouth IS changing the facts

What is your agenda?

If the harvard professor had been gay would you be having your shit fit?

I thought not.

[ellacott]

31. You don't know that's a fact

That what police officer claimed. Also, you don't know how the police officer approached Prof. Gates. Once he showed his ID that should have been the end of it. Did the officer apologize to Gates? If Prof. Gates said something to make the officer mad is not a reason to arrest anyone. "Yes, judge he said mean things to me"

If what Gates said was so bad why did the officer have to lure him outside of his house so he could arrest him?

No one is saying the cop was wrong to come to his house but the cop could have done a better job to defuse the situation. Good thing he's not an hostage negotiator.

[sui generis]

33. the whole incident makes me sad

for everyone involved. It should not have happened - either way.

But for the record, I think if cops were running around like white boogeymen luring black people out of their houses to arrest them for being black it would happen to more black professors more often regardless of harvard pedigree.

I think maybe my creepiness with this whole thread is the "see I told you white people cops are all evil and this proves it" ethos that's developing. It's not constructive.

[ellacott]

42. I don't see that at all

Even Prof. Gates said that he's glaad that police came and if his house is being broken into he wants someone to call 911.

If anyone knows Prof. Gates or watched any of his documentaries would know that the police report is so out of character.

I don't believe the police report. I believe something set him off. Sometimes the police swoops in with a heavy hand when it's not needed.

[sui generis]

45. at last, I agree.

Thanks for the sane response - I'm starting to feel ultra evil just by even questioning. What is in the air today?

[hughee99]

78. As I understand it, after eventually showing the officer his ID

Gates followed the officer outside, NOT at the officers request, but so he could give him a piece of his mind.

[mkultra]

36. the FACT is he did show ID

This is undisputed. He was arrested after showing ID.

[sui generis]

40. sigh

yes he did. Nobody's disputing that. How long did it take to show his ID? It's really weird that some days here, just questioning anything is met with transference of antipathy.

Really? Can't even think about this rationally? cops are always bad, there was no provocation other than Gates was black. Does that really make sense?

That's all I'm saying. Not that the cops were right or that Gates was to blame, just that a sequence of events escalated for reasons that the prima faciae story do not fit.

[mkultra]

55. again, "how long" doesnt make a damn difference legally.

When he showed his ID and proved it was his house, the cops legal duties ceased.

We all know that the event was probably heated, we just don't give a damn.

[sui generis]

62. I get it

you're taking out your anger on me, instead of the cops you want to give a piece of your mind to. I've offended your indentity by not swallowing either side of the story hook line and sinker. I am the bad guy. :eyes: or at least the one you can spout off at.

alrighty then. moving on.

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[Hello_Kitty]

84. I've gotten into it with this person before

It was on a thread where he was, I kid you not, defending rich people hiding money in Swiss bank accounts. He proudly proclaimed himself to be a plutocrat at that time. Seriously. :wow: Real plutocrats don't even identify themselves as such as it would be rather unseemly, but this wannabe has no such restraint.

[mkultra]

88. i think i made my point

I have no desire to continue pummeling him.

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[fishwax]

43. How do you know he initially refused?

That was in the original police report, but (unless I'm mistaken) that's not how Gates tells it. He said he identified himself as living in the house and being a Harvard Professor, the cop asked him if he could show proof of the latter, and he complied.

[sui generis]

okay, I think we're all getting closer to the middle

finally.

we don't know either way. The heavy handed cop crap was uncalled for, but cops aren't usually heavy handed just out of the blue, and especially not in a decent neighborhood regardless of who answers the door. Occams razor says that cops deal with black people every single day, uh, some cops are black, and most cops are decent people or they wouldn't be cops.

I'm just not comfortable with the claim that it's only due to the professor's skin color, and no other reason, because that does not make sense. Cops are not two penny villains, usually, until you challenge their authority, and that has NOTHING to do with what color you or the cops are.

[fishwax]

56. of course, the middle isn't always right, but here goes

The heavy handed cop crap was uncalled for, but cops aren't usually heavy handed just out of the blue, and especially not in a decent neighborhood regardless of who answers the door.

Plenty of people have experience that would testify otherwise. And occasionally having to deal with cops who are heavy handed without good reason seems to be a pretty basic part of the American experience for people of color.

I'm just not comfortable with the claim that it's only due to the professor's skin color, and no other reason, because that does not make sense.

Are you comfortable with the claim that the professor's skin color had anything to do with it at all? I ask sincerely, because your initial post in this thread, in which you accused Gates of "open(ing) the door, tak(ing) the chip off his shoulder and throw(ing) it at the cops" doesn't seem to leave much space for that.

[sui generis]

60. "please Mr. Charlie"

the OP title says it all.

[fishwax]

68. What do you mean?

I don't think that has anything to do with what I asked.

[sui generis]

73. background?

I heard a digest of this story at 4:00 a.m. today getting ready for the day. I heard two slightly different versions, one on CNN, and one on ABC, so I'm triangulating what I heard. What I did hear in common was that there was some time and number of words that happened before ID was produced and that the words were, quite frankly, kind of defensive.

The real thing nobody is asking here is why a cop would claim that a black man was giving a speech about being victimized instead of producing ID while they were investigating a possible burglary? That's the part that just doesn't make complete sense, but I guess it could also be read either way.

I don't know. But not reading between the lines I think something happened that got everyone defensive all the way around. Then I see this thread title and it kind of got under my skin. I'm all for being fair, but you can tell from this thread that fairness is really not wanted on this particular topic, because it means that bad police procedure is at fault instead of this notion that white cops just hang out in neighborhoods looking for black professors to mistreat. It justifies our view that life is unfair that white people are mostly to blame.

I hate that! Anyway, I've long accepted that I'm the fall guy for this thread so there you have it. The roles have been cast.

[ellacott]

71. Have you seen a movie called Amos n Andrew?

It's one of my favorite movies. Samuel L. Jackson is an author who bought a home in a New England resort island. The neighbors see Samuel L Jackson and assume he's a criminal and they call the police. The police overreact and surround his home. When the cops realize their mistake they get a drifter, played by Nicolas Cage, to pose as theif so the cops can have a legitimate reason for being there. Things go from bad to worse in this comedy.

I thought of this movie as soon as I heard about this story. I think this is a good teachable moment. People see this differently according to their perspective. I am an African American female who has been the victim of heavy handed tactics by the police when I was innocent of any wrong doing. This is not an uncommon occurence of many people in my community. Many times the police act first in a heavy handed manner until the situation proves itself to be otherwise.

This is not to say that all cops are bad and react in this manner. I have many friends who are cops.

Based on what I know of Prof. Gates I don't see him reacted the way he did if he was not provoked.

[sui generis]

76. thank you

I like that you view it as a teachable moment! Kudos - and thanks for the constructive insight.

[ellacott]

79. You're welcome

The big problem I have with this incident is that the officer got him to come outside on his porch so he could arrest him. The officer knew he didn't have any grounds to arrest him in his home. To me that was calculated and it causes me to doubt the other things this officer said.

[Name removed]

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[sui generis]

63. a lie is something people tell when they know the truth

and want to dissemble from it. I'm not saying I know the truth. I'm repeating what was written about the story and questioning it. I'm not lying, I'm questioning. That is allowed, no matter what you think.

[Raschel]

81. Well it's quite obvious that Gates was "arrogant".......

:eyes:

[sui generis]

17. chip meet shoulder

I don't need your shit explained.

Read what I said, and please everyone who is not black is not a villain. God damn it - the guy behaved irresponsibly and I don't give a flying multicolored fuck what his skin color is.

[Buzz Clik]

7. So... after the id was produced, shouldn't the cop have left?

The incident was over. Arresting Gates was dead wrong.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. Gates was disturbing the officers right to order shiftless n*gg**s around

With his fancy professor talk and all those fucking n*gg** books on the wall!

:sarcasm:

[Buzz Clik]

10. sigh... There are other possibilities. Cops can be pricks without being racists.

[Solomon]

15. Right. This is the game always played. Let's search

for reasons why racist behavior is not really racist.

Let's start with blaming the victim and all sorts of things.

[sui generis]

21. nobody is blaming the victim

Just suggesting there is accountability. Had Mr. Gates produced ID with no further fuss or soapbox moments, there might have been a different outcome.

The cops were still doubtless out of line arresting him after FINALLY seeing the ID, but Gates has some accountability here for helping to escalate the situation by not cooperating initially.

Be fair.

[Raineyb]

22. You do realize you just blamed the victim in a post where you denied blaming the victim right? n/t

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[mkultra]

37. cops do not have a right to knock on doors and demand ID of inhabitants

If they do decide to show ID as gates did, they then do not have a right to arrest.

[sui generis]

41. if they are responding to a burglary call they sure as hell do.

absolutely.

[mkultra]

47. You sound really confident. Are you sure?

As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

some states have laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. these are called "stop-and-identify" statutes and they allow police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

Mass does not have a SaI law.

None the less, Gates did show his ID and proved he was a Harvard employee. He was arrested anyway.

[sui generis]

50. okay now we're going in circles

I've said every possible nuance I can make on this point.

I agree he shouldn't have been arrested after showing his ID. I also don't think cops just run around arresting people for shits and giggles.

So between the two events, something clearly happened with the result being an escalation of poor judgment. I certainly hope it turns out that the cops are racists and evil and dismissed from the force if it can be proven.

I also hope that whatever the less cartoonish truth is, that it will come to light. It does not require pre-judgment, although chewing through the events with a discussion should be allowed.

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[Hello_Kitty]

87. Dude, since you're all into speculating what happened based on what little you know

How about trying a little inductive reasoning here. What burglar would ANSWER THE DOOR for anyone, let alone cops?

[sui generis]

107. hey this happened to me

m'kay?

They wanted to be sure that I was the homeowner and could identify myself.

Inductive reasoning. Hon, your horse is about a day late to this race.

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[fishwax]

38. Had Gates cooperated initially he probably would have been arrested immediately

The first thing the cop did was ask him to step outside, where Gates could have been arrested without a warrant on suspicion of breaking and entering. So Gates was wise in not cooperating with that request.

[sui generis]

44. more crystal balls

I've been called out on the porch and asked for ID (for chasing off animal control officer using my property to attempt to trap an animal).

I was not arrested. I'm sure though you have a picture of what everyone's skin color in that exchange was using your clairvoyance.. :eyes:

[fishwax]

46. lol

I didn't say he would with certainty. Of course, as it turns out, he *was* arrested right after stepping outside, but still.

When a police officer asks you to do something, it is not necessarily in your best interests to do so. Cooperating is *not* always the right option, particularly when it involves surrendering certain protections.

Your comment about clairvoyance is bizarre and misdirected. I wasn't using any crystal ball, just countering your assertion that Gates is responsible because he didn't immediately cooperate.

[mkultra]

48. if you complied, you did so by choice

You could have exorcised your rights and just walked back inside and shut the door.

[sui generis]

52. you do know we're actually on the same side right?

this is supposed to be a discussion not a pissing contest about who is more villainous.

come on guys.

[mkultra]

53. i cant tell what side your on.

[Raineyb]

91. Neither can I. n/t

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[Buzz Clik]

95. That is unfair. I have left open the possibility of racism from the beginning.

It remains a possibility and not a fact.

[sui generis]

19. yes I AGREE

reading is fundamental.

It's not all black or white. All I'm saying is that Gates started down the path by being confrontational to begin with, and black or white or pink, that's not a smart thing to do when someone is investigating a potential burglary.

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[Buzz Clik]

98. You don't come across as being particularly neutral here.

My impression is that you find more fault with Gates than the cop. Gates may not be blameless, and the cop may not be a racist. Right now, the evidence points to Gates being justifiably pissed off and the cop looking for an opportunity to get retribution. Racial motivation is unclear, and it is unclear that Gates should receive any blame for the unwarranted accusations.

Quick story with a similar thread: A young black woman was conferring with a colleague of mine at a mid-sized Midwestern college. The young woman was the first African-American to pursue a graduate degree in the College of Engineering at this university (founded in the 1870s). My colleague was helping the student with some paperwork and had to go to the main office for a form. While she was gone, another member of the faculty walked past my friend's office and saw the young woman sitting there; he stopped dead in his tracks, strode into the office, and demanded, "What are you doing here?" The young woman was explaining when my colleague returned to defuse the situation. My friend has students in and out of her office all day, and she often left them there alone for a minute or two. This was the one and only instance of another faculty member demanding an explanation for the student being in her office alone. The young woman's response was one of irritation and resolve: "If I had been male, he would have accused me of being a thief." Sound familiar?

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[Raineyb]

12. What the hell?

The man answered his own door and identified himself as the person who lived there! What the hell else did the police need?

What are you frothing on about?

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[fishwax]

14. wow

:wow:

[sui generis]

65. oy.

how did this happen? I really did not intend to start a war. I guess critical thinking is not allowed on certain topics where the conclusions are foregone.

I do appreciate your less incendiary responses -

thanks

[OwnedByFerrets]

34. That was a really stupid post.

[sui generis]

39. really? why?

Let me just be clear, I can't stand cops and I hate authority.

BUT, I'm happy to think that if a neighbor calls the cops because they think my house is being burglarized that they'll show up and do something, however lame and retarded.

I do NOT think that they would give a crap what my skin color is if I did anything that looked like I was delaying showing them identification.

And FOR THE RECORD, I have been called outside my house for failing to show identification, so of all the stupid people here I can probably speak to this situation from direct experience.

I'm sorry - I didn't get why you thought my post was stupid.

[Hard_Work]

77. so. let ME see if I understand YOU correctly.

Did you miss this part of your post "A person was at the residence who opened the door,..."

How many robbers have you heard of who open the door of the house they're robbing when the police knock?

All I can do is shake my head at the idiotic lengths some people are willing to go to in order to justify mistreatment of Blacks.

[CatWoman]

9. Hi Solomon

:hi:

:)

I heard this woman caller on Washington Journal this morning going on about how blacks have no one to fault but themselves, and need to "clean up their acts" -- major asshole criminals that we are.

Sadly, I've seen posters here say pretty much the same thing.

*sigh*

[Raineyb]

13. There are a lot of people who are no better than freepers when it comes to race around here

And yet get annoyed when you point that out.

You'd think on a board of so called progressives we wouldn't have to put up with nearly as much of that attitude as we do on this board.

[sui generis]

32. well, make your point

using facts please.

I've got all day for you to clearly prove your point. What's annoying is when somebody like you accuses a fellow progressive of being freeper and the runs away.

Bring it.

Edited to add the sound of teeny little crickets making teeny little cricket noises.

[Raineyb]

100. Every time there's an incident that involves race there are always the apologists who come out and

make excuses for the racists. Not some times. Every time. You can use the search button look it up. Hell look up the other Gates threads you'll find all you want there. These excuses are exactly the same argument that freepers would use so as I said, there are some on this board who have the same attitudes about race as freepers. If you don't like that change your worldview so it doesn't coincide with freepers. Getting mad at me for pointing out the bloody obvious doesn't change the revolting nature of the argument these people make.

BTW, I do not exist for your bloody amusement. I will get to things if and when I bloody well get to it. I don't owe you shit and I don't live to sit in front of my computer all goddamened day. Apparently the concept of having other things to do is a concept with which you have trouble. That's not my problem.

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[Solomon]

16. What gets my goat is if Gates had stepped out as

the cop asked him, he would not have been able to prove he lived there.

If they had beat the shit out of him, you would be getting these same arguments. It was all Gate's fault.

[sui generis]

30. magnificent crystal ball

You should focus on lotto instead of politics, you'll be happier.

:eyes:

Realistically, if he had stepped out on the porch he could have said my ID is in my wallet on the kitchen counter if you would accompany me into the kitchen. They would not have been tasering him and beating him up and torturing his kittens or whatever other vision your immaculate clairvoyance tells you that cops just hang out and do.

[sui generis]

29. this has gone off the rails

if I am the poster you are referring to that is not even remotely what I'm saying.

I'm not referring to skin color. I'm referring to being initially uncooperative as the starting point for the escalation of testosterone. I'm not saying he deserved what happened either, or that the cops were justified in continuing with the arrest.

sigh. Can nobody have a slightly different opinion on this or should we all just hold hands and sing kumbaya?

[Solomon]

67. Yeah Let's just agree like the Supreme Court once

said that a black man has no rights that a white man is bound to respect. That would end every racial controversy wouldn't it.

[sui generis]

69. yeah, and states rights for gay marriage

we're all victims.

[Cha]

75. Were there any good callers to

counteract her dumb stupid assholeness?

[Solomon]

80. I've been peeking in on the radio and it's the standard

Obama haters calling in blaming Gates for the thing. Same old shit. Gate's fault for thinking he had rights in his house.

One radio host even premised his whole show on the "fact" that Gates was the racist here, and this is what happens to white males, the most oppressed group in America today.

[Cha]

83. They must be racists then because

I don't think they would like being arrested in their own house.


The charges were dropped so somebody with Authority thought the cop charges were bogus..maybe it was the cop's ego that got the best of him?

[Hello_Kitty]

92. It's such bullshit

I don't recall anyone making general statements about white people when Zsa Zsa Gabor assualted that cop. Mel Gibson's drunken asshat behavior toward the cops wasn't considered a reflection on white people.

[TheKentuckian]

82. Why is Mr Gates NOT "allowed" to be a douchebag?

The cop is a fucking public servant that is charged with the mission to "protect and serve". Why is the emphasis not on doing what Mr Gates and his community pay him for and moving along.

Cops need to learn THEIR motherfucking place and that ain't happening with the population falling over themselves to excuse misbehavior and often criminal behavior every time they cross the line.
Cops should be more concerned about "losing authority" by having to turn in their badge and sidearm rather than being questioned by their employers.

Everyone knows good and well that the officer's job and AUTHORITY was fucking over when he was shown ID but there are still people trying to excuse a clearly bogus arrest.
Cops need to reigned in across this country and made to work FOR the citizenry rather than against them. Stop defending these fucks, this is the path to a police state. Something should have been done nationally to break cops of this above the citizen attitude a hundred years ago.

[cleveramerican]

85. if a cop investigating a 911 call asks you for ID

and you go off on an "do you know who I am?" rant instead, your going to jail.
Even if you then have a change of heart after you realize your going to jail and decide to cooperate.

[Hello_Kitty]

90. Gates showed the cop his ID well before the arrest.

That was the cue for the officer to say "I'm sorry, sir" and be on his way.

[TheKentuckian]

97. and hopefully the force will get hammered on improper arrest

but probably not with numbnuts on the jury whose first concern is always to protect authority.

[Raschel]

86. Exactly! Justifying what police do to minorities has emboldened cops to move on to the White

population. Now people who denied this behavior by cops for so long are seeing it happen to their own families.

[BlooInBloo]

93. Because he's black...

This has been another episode of Simple Answers To Simple Questions.

[TheKentuckian]

96. Whites (in general terms) apparently want to be harrassed and for police to be above the law rather

than enforcing it.

[CBGLuthier]

99. My Burglarly story, absolutely true

Years ago got robbed. I even saw the guy.

First thing the cop asked me wasif it was a "colored guy"?

I told him no.

What I wanted to say was, "No, he was a white asshole like you"

That, according to some here, would be reason for the cop to arrest me. Being defensive.Taking offense at a wrong.

Really, race doesn't even matter. It's the abuse of authority. Too many bad cops on power trips. Need to be fired.