This economic situation is not a hicup or a recession

[AllentownJake]

What we are dealing with is a very clear warning that we need to change our ways. I have been critical of the administration on economic policies.

What we are dealing with is 30 years of suspending the inevitable. We need a transition to a new economy. The administration pays good lip service to this, however I do question whether they are serious with actually implementing it. The present monetary policy, economic stimulus, and budget say something different.

What we need is a transition to a new leaner and meaner economy, that also means Americans spending less money on crap from overseas. I look around my own house and I see tons of crap we don't need.

We need a green manufacturing base with alternative energy. Getting there will not be easy. However, everything great this nation has ever done has come at a cost.

Larry Summers and Tim Geithner are not the two to lead us into this new economy. This has been obvious since their appointments. These are two men that are so in love with the old bubble to bust way of doing things that it is impossible to expect change.

I am confident that our current President is the type of politician like Ronald Raygun that is guaranteed re-election. The question is what does President Obama do with it?

I believe President Obama is onboard, however I question his cabinet and the US Congress.

[Tansy_Gold]

1. Robert Reich is saying the same thing. But those of us who

regularly post in the Stock Market Watch and Week-End Economists threads have been saying it for months, maybe even years.

And as always, I post this not only as a direct reply to the OP but for the lurkers, bless their little hearts.

One other thing -- there was a whole movement back in the 70s to get away from the consumer-based economy. Call it back to the land, less is more, whatever -- that movement tried to make a difference. I think it succeeded on some level but not on a wholesale cultural level. And I also think those of us who tried it then and continue to practice the philosophy to whatever extent we're able are those who are best situated to deal with the inevitable in this economy.


Tansy Gold

[bvar22]

6. Old Hippies Here.

We ARE doing what we learned in the 60's.
What we can't make or grow ourselves, be buy or barter 2nd hand or salvage directly from the previous owner when possible.
We are no longer good American consumers.
Next year, we will "consume" even less.

[Tansy_Gold]

7. Exactly. And we tend to do without, too.

There seems to be far less need to acquire stuff, or to seek our identity in our stuff.

A friend's daughter in law recently said to me, "I don't know how anyone can live on $20K a year. I spend that much on clothes!" I replied, "I don't. That's how I can live on $20K a year. In fact, I can live on a lot less."


TG

[Undercurrent]

20. Kudos!

Im's another old hippie, and I concur.

After a very brief flirtation with the debt based all American lifestyle decades ago, I went back to a sane and simple lifestyle. No credit cards, no debt. Own my land, and hand made studio house outright. Grow veggies, have fruit trees, cut my own firewood, do my own wiring, and plumbing. Just remodeled my kitchen doing all the work myself, using recycled lumber. I'm a self employed silversmith.

Actually I live pretty much like I did as a kid in the 50's. My parents didn't buy things like clothes, a TV, or such on credit. They saved up for things they wanted. I do the same thing. It's incredibly liberating.

It's is like the American people are waking up from a fat and happy dream. Getting hit in the face with the reality they tried so hard to ignore. They are realizing that all the things they "own", they don't own. It's owned by the banks, and the other financial entities (leaches).

[AllentownJake]

22. Hippie

Is such a loaded term.

I'm a child from the 80s when we hear hippie we think people who don't shower and smoke a lot of weed.

The conservation part of that movement isn't as well known. Probably because for every one of you, there is a Norm Coleman out there who did the opposite of what you did.

[Undercurrent]

24. "loaded term" might be a... well, a loaded term. hehe

Seriously, I think you are correct about the conservation movement not being the first thing that pops into people's minds when they hear the word "hippie". A better self descriptor might be "an old fashioned, country woman". Although there are probably some connotations in that term that I am not tuned into as well.

Yeah, old Norm defiantly went a different direction! Right into Crazytown.

[AllentownJake]

25. Around here I call it PA Dutch lol

My grandparents were conservationist in the sense that nothing ever went to waste. They raised 4 kids, had a substantial garden, and even raised chihuahuas and other small dogs to sell. Clothes were all hand me downs and my grandmother had no problem patching a garment.

[bvar22]

28. !

No debt. No Credit Cards.
Own our own land. Grow a lot of our own food.
Raise Free Range chickens and keep HoneyBees (just took off 2 gallons of pure Honey).
Our water comes from an underground spring (cold, clear, abundant)
Our cabin is still unfinished, but habitable. We do all the work ourselves.
What we don't know how to do, we learn.
We are surrounded by extensive National Forest and there is plenty of game available if that becomes necessary.

We went BIG on Beans and Berries this year, so we ere delighted to see this thread on DU yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6044888

We sill buy milk (local dairy, glass bottles),flour, oats, coffee, rice, butter, cooking oil, chocolate, health & hygiene stuff, and a few other commodities, in bulk where possible. We also are on the rural power grid, and buy some gasoline, but not near as much as when we lived in the city.

Our Winter heat is by wood stove, and we cut and split the wood ourselves.
We burn Oak and Hickory which is plentiful here.

We realize we are very fortunate to be able to do this.
We are both healthy, strong, adaptive, have a wide and complimentary set of skills, and have no dependent children or other obligations.

We don't consider ourselves "survivalists". We did this because we are attracted to this lifestyle, and it was our way to say "No Thank You" to the nightmare of American Consumerism and a political system that represents only the rich and powerful.
Our taxable income is now near poverty level, so we won't be paying for more Wars, Bombs, or Wall Street Bailouts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=268x2601

[sandnsea]

2. A green manufacturing base with alternative energy, hmmm,

Something that would include some alternative energy investment such as is being discussed in the energy bill - and job training like this:

http://blog.careertech.org/?p=316

Online classes: “According to the draft materials from the administration, the program would support the development of 20-25 “high quality” courses a year, with a mix of high school and community college courses. Initial preference would go to “career oriented” courses. The courses would be owned by the government and would be free for anyone to take. Courses would be selected competitively, through peer review, for support.”
National Skills College: “Under the plan, the government would also support a “National Skills College” at a community college that would, among other things, work to develop examinations that could be given at the end of the courses so that colleges, employers and students could judge how much learning had taken place. Course developers would be asked to consult with colleges on standards, so that the offerings could be created with the goal of having credit transferred to many institutions.”

Job Training Programs: “The discussion draft for the job training program calls for spending $500 million a year in the first five years of the program, during which grants would be awarded competitively to community colleges, and $1.3 billion after that, at which point 50 percent of funds would be awarded by formula to states, 25 percent awarded to those states showing high performance programs, and 25 percent to community colleges, awarded competitively. To be eligible, community colleges would need to agree to track and report on student outcomes, and to set targets for graduation rates and “employment-related outcomes,” while also serving “high need populations.”

Loan Fund for Facilities: “The loan fund for community college facilities would receive $10 billion under the plan. The loans would be for 10 years for repairs and renovations and 25 years for construction, and the plan calls for the loans to be “zero or low interest.” The funds would first be distributed to states, which would have to pledge that these funds would not cause states to cut funds for the colleges. States would distribute funds based on “demonstrated need,” with an emphasis on expanding capacity in programs that “meet employer needs in the areas of health care, green jobs, science, engineering and technology.”

[girl gone mad]

3. Green energy won't save us.

It's pure fantasy to believe we can recreate the bubbles of the past with green technology. The market simply is not large or competitive enough. Right now much of the industry is wholly dependent on government subsidies, a situation which is unsustainable in this economic climate.

From reading your link, it appears as if the real goal of this particular government spending is to expand the education bubble. With limited jobs available upon graduation, that's also going to be a difficult bubble to maintain.

[sandnsea]

4. Who said anything about creating another bubble? n/t

[AllentownJake]

21. "Save us"

Depends on what you mean by "save us"

If you mean by "save us" return to the roaring 90s where people could afford to pay extra money for the "privilege" to wear clothes that had a particular manufacturer's logo, no we are not going to be saved.

If you mean "save us" by establishing a culture that conserves more, throws away less, etc

than we can be "saved"

I'm 30. I can remember my mother patching my jeans as a 5 year old instead of just going to wal-mart and buying a new pair.

:shrug:

[taught_me_patience]

9. Green energy ain't gonna do anything

sorry to burst your bubble.

[sandnsea]

14. Tell the OP

He's the one bitching that there's no green manufacturing. Of course, if I'd agreed with his whining, then you wouldn't have bothered to say a word. Too obvious.

[AllentownJake]

16. It isn't just Green Energy

Its going green all around.

Public Transportation is green technology. Convincing people to abandon the throw away culture we have is green technology. Returning to local farms and plowing over some of the exburbs and suburbs is green technology.

Some green technology is old technology and old principles.

[whyverne]

5. Interesting propositions.

The problem is that 70 percent of our economy is based on that crap we don't need.

[AllentownJake]

15. The movie Idocracy

Was set 500 years in the future...in reality it was a commentary on today.

[invictus]

8. .

[Odin2005]

10. Dupe

[Odin2005]

11. Obama right now is like FDR in 1933, trying to fix things and to to go BACK to pre-crisis normality.

It wasn't until FDRs second term that everyone, including FDR himself, started to realize that there was no going back. Such is the nature of the eras of crisis that have occurred every 80 years in American history, The Revolution, the Civil War, The Depression and WW2, and now the current crisis. There is no going back to the Culture War Era, just as there was no going back to the Roaring 20s, the Missouri Compromise, and benign neglect of the American Colonies.

Oh, and don't forget about Nanotechnology. If the very interesting stuff I've heard about there being decentralized, local nano-manufacturing of everyday goods very soon is right the corporatists are gonna find themselves screwed.

[AllentownJake]

18. Agree

Thankfully the President is a popular guy and has a good image and our opponents on the right are flaying right now.

However, there were two directions this country could have gone in, in 1932 and 1936.

We went in the correct direction, Germany and Italy went in the wrong direction.

[Honeycombe8]

12. Too late? I wanted to buy dog treats NOT made in China.

I read the labels of countless bags of treats and rawhides that were appropriate for my dogs & that I thought they'd like (and would be healthy).

There none made in America. None. Almost all of them came from China.

I saw a documentary on China farming and mining. It's disgusting. No wonder people are dying and getting sick here from food and treat products from China. China has little (if any) lead regulation or oversight. What regulations they have, their oversight is poor. Some small company grows lettuce in soil that is laced with mining residue from the nearby mine, and they just tell the govt that, yeah, it's okay, no lead or anything. Corruption is throughout their business dealings.

So our dogs got sick and died from contaminated food and treats. Our children got sick from contaminated peanut butter (which is in more products, I found out, than I'd care to think about). And even health nuts died from contaminated lettuce.

Buy American? Yeah, sure. First we have to HAVE American on the shelves.

[AllentownJake]

19. There is little we can do about China

They own a very large share in our debt, and they use it as a negotiating tool with trade.

Have you tried your local butcher shops? I don't have a dog anymore but I do recall that rawhide bones etc being sold by my local butcher when I was a kid.

That is if you still have a local butcher....

[Pharlo]

29. It can be VERY difficult to find dog treats made in the US.

I agree with that statement, but it is getting a bit easier. But, you are going to pay for them. The foreign treats are a lot cheaper.

I'm also wary about the 'manufactured by/distributed by' game the companies play. They'll make the 'distributed by' information a bit bigger and bolder than the 'manufactured by' place and also put it in a different location. Sometimes, the only one you can find is the 'distributed by' that is because if the product is manufactured in the US or a US territory, they are not legally required to print the origin of the product. I found this out when I e-mailed 'Milk Bone' to find out where they manufactured their product. I e-mailed them back that if it didn't specifically state on the package 'manufactured in US/Canada/ or Europe', my dogs were not getting them.

Another thing to watch for is 'manufactured in US with some contents from' and then typically lists China or a South American country.

But, it is getting easier to find dog treat products 'made in the US'. Hell, I can even find them in Wal-Mart now. Two years ago, I couldn't.

[DCBob]

13. I agree with much of what you are saying but you are talking long term..

Summers and Geithner were brought in to help with the short term to keep us from sinking into a depression.

[AllentownJake]

17. That is impossible

What most people don't realize is that we have been avoiding a depression since 1980 when Reagan took office.

Carter was trying for long-term solutions. Raygun said hey are you better off now than you were 4 years ago.

Carter's policies in the short term caused pain but in the long term led to a better future.

[leftofthedial]

23. we are at the beginning of a paradigm shift

in the way civilization operates.

the current administration appears not to know this.

[Prism]

26. Yes, exactly

The economy is like a chronic heart patient, each subsequent shock to the system weakening the muscles further and further. We can survive only so many shocks, endure so much medicine before an intervention is needed to stave off the inevitable. All signs point to the weakest recovery yet, with no guarantee that it will eventually sink even further after a temporary period of scrappish growth.

I find the President's current policy frustrating, especially given his background as a community organizer. Organizers don't push or dictate from on high. They gather up the ragged ends of movement and guide it where it's inclined to go. He is given this opportunity and it has been in his past nature and character to take these things when they come.

He needs to do what his instincts are probably telling him rather than what the cautious, conservative, status quo Wall Street advisors would have him do. Their instincts are probably much worse than where I think his would naturally be.

[kenny blankenship]

27. The warnings came in 1998 and 2000

But the warnings were ignored. This is not a warning.

You'll know Obama is onboard when he fires Larry Summers. He came into office believing his situation was like 1993, when in truth it was much more like 1933. He came into office believing all the old lies. He will have to learn the truth the hard way.

[Hawaii Hiker]

30. The one paragraph:

"I am confident that our current President is the type of politician like Ronald Raygun that is guaranteed re-election".

"guaranteed re-election"

I sure hope so!..
:woohoo: