Can someone please help educate me about the New Haven firefighter case?

[OneGrassRoot]

This article is the best article I've found thus far, explaining the details.

http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/04/city_case_revea.php


However -- and please forgive me if I'm being ignorant -- but I cannot understand the part in bold (my emphasis) below:

"It dates to 2003, when the New Haven Fire Department hired a consultant to write and administer a written exam for would-be lieutenants and captains. The idea was to construct a test that would measure important technical knowledge, and that would not unfairly tilt against racial minorities. The New Haven 20 say the city made painstaking efforts to assure that the test was job-relevant and fair. The city, without directly rebutting that notion, paints a picture of a sloppy test-creation process, with the consultant omitting crucial steps (and, implicitly, the city failing to correct those deficiencies).

In December 2003, the results came in with a startling racial divide: Black test-takers’ pass rate was about half that of the white applicants’. No black firefighters were among the top scorers who would immediately qualify for promotion.

So instead of asking the Civil Service Board to certify the test results, City Hall advised setting them aside. The city’s then-corporation counsel told the board that the stark racial disparity was, on its face, evidence that the exam might have violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964."


I know the right-wingers are going to talk nonstop about this and get themselves even more riled up than they already are (a few "moderate" friends are trending in this direction). People need a focus for their anger -- they're pissed and people like Rush make it easier to narrow the focus as to what, or who, to be pissed about.

Can someone please tell me how one constructs a technical test that favors or discriminates against any race?

I know I must be missing something obvious, but I can't wrap my brain around this.

These are all people who have presumably lived in the U.S., and in that region, for a decent amount of time. WHAT type of racial aspects to a test could they be talking about that would affect the test results?

Color me clueless.




:shrug:

[tularetom]

1. Did the city's attorney review this test before it was given?

Or was this test devised by a good ol boy clique within the fire department to ensure that only their buds passed?

I agree that it would be hard to skew a test consisting of technical fact based questions, but it wouldn't hard to make the questions excessively difficult and then leak the answers to a few selected candidates (who all happened to be white).

From years of experience with civil service hiring policies and practices, I can assure you that it's almost impossible to remove all subjectivity from the selection process.

[OneGrassRoot]

2. See, THAT would make sense....

and I recall reading that somewhere...that it was a good ole boy network and the questions were leaked.

But that statement, that "the idea was to construct a test that would measure important technical knowledge, and that would not unfairly tilt against racial minorities."

I'm just stunned that a test of this sort would even have that as a criterion, and the whole thing smells.

And you mean subjectivity based on personnel and the process, not the testing itself, right?

And this, on edit: "...because it feared that the test violated civil rights law."

How on earth CAN a test such as this violate civil rights law?

That's what I'm desperately trying to understand. There's an awful lot of insinuation being thrown out by the Faux crowd; we know what they're gonna say before they say it.

But I am just trying to understand HOW a test such as this one COULD violate civil rights law.

[amandabeech]

8. I read today that the test was created by an outside contractor that specilized

in writing non-discriminatory employment tests.

It is not an easy thing to write, I understand.

I also seem to recall that the city produced a different test contractor at trial who claimed that the first test writer did a bad job.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Wikipedia link

Not very helpful--It doesn't describe the test, not links to the questions for example.

But, it does give interesting background to the case, brought by white and hispanic applicants who wanted the test results upheld in the hiring decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano

[OneGrassRoot]

4. Thanks! :) n/t

[NYC_SKP]

5. Another informative article here:

More descriptive of the test:

First a little history: Back in 2003, 118 firefighters took tests for promotion to captain and lieutenant. The city paid $100,000 to I/O Solutions, a testing company from Illinois, which observed and interviewed New Haven firefighters — two-thirds of whom were white — to see which parts of their jobs were relevant and important.

I/O Solutions then created a 100-question test and a detailed study guide. The city offered firefighters a three-month study period. During those three months, Frank Ricci, who's dyslexic, paid $1,000 for the study materials to be read on tape because he learns better by listening. Greg Boivin resigned from part-time jobs to devote more time to studying. Ban Vargas took leave from his part-time job to study. Christopher Parker studied in the hospital while waiting for his wife to give birth.

Promotion exams are a big deal because they're offered so infrequently — sometimes only once a decade.

The test was divided into a written exam, worth 60 percent of the total score and an oral exam worth 40 percent. For the oral part, I/O Solutions brought in assessors from across the country, two-thirds of whom were minorities, to listen to and judge the firefighters' answers. To pass the test, candidates needed to score 70 percent or above. Those with the top scores were eligible for promotion. But when the results came in, nearly all the leading scores belonged to whites.

http://www.fairfieldweekly.com/article.cfm?aid=12736

:patriot:

[OneGrassRoot]

6. That is a good one. Thank you.

I know absolutely nothing about this subject matter, so I hesitate to comment about any aspect of it.

At this point, I'm surprised by the process that was undertaken. I would have thought there would be a standard procedure for such tests? Doesn't seem so....

Thanks again. :)

[Moosepoop]

54. I'm amazed at the cost of the consultant's services.

$100,000 to design and administer a test for 118 people to take?

A 100-question test at a cost of almost $85,000 per applicant??

I don't have the foggiest notion what these kinds of tests should cost -- does anyone know if this is the norm?

[elleng]

7. Just jumping into this,

so this is my momentary recollection:

I think the trial court's decision, that the 2d Circuit was asked to review, essentially stated that there had been a good-faith effort to test fairly, and they would not/could not/should not impose their own or any new standards/requirements. The Court of Appeals upheld that decision, with Judge Sotomayor agreeing to that result.

EDIT: Having read something:

'She was part of a three-judge panel that upheld New Haven, Conn.'s decision to throw out a firefighter promotion test because no African Americans scored high enough for advancement.

White firefighters sued, saying their constitutional right to equal protection had been breached. Sotomayor and two other judges said the circuit's precedents showed the city was within its rights to scuttle the test, because its use might have led to a lawsuit from minority firefighters under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, which forbids use of tests with such disparate effects.'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/26/AR2009052600889_2.html?hpid=artslot&sid=ST2009052600912

SO, I DREAMED my original recollection!!!!

[Jennicut]

9. This case is fascinating to me for many reasons. I grew up a few towns away from New Haven.

The test can be skewed simply because of the different education systems that exist in this country and for that reason, it was probably unfair.

[JohnnyBoots]

10. Wouldn't the test be on the properties of fire, method and theory

of fire fighting, firehouse operations and stuff like that. Not things that you would learn in high school. I'll give you that you do learn how to study and think a certain way in grade school and there could be disparity there. To me that seems like another issue to be addressed in another forum, not a fire fighting exam and its results. It would seem that the test would be very job specific and that you would have to study your ass off and learn from years of experience on the job. I don't see how a test like that would be racially biased if the questions were based on job specific stuff and not like, please write an essay on who was the better Bruin's defenseman Ray Bourque or Bobby Orr. It seems like they threw out the test to avoid potential law suits from people who didn't make the grade. Which to me smells like bullshit. I would love to see a copy of that test.

[OneGrassRoot]

12. You voiced my thoughts perfectly. Thanks. n/t

[JohnnyBoots]

13. It is unfortunate that this case will be used as a molitov cocktail by the Right. It is pretty

complicated, but easily distorted to get people fired up. I still think she will get through confirmation.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. I just posted more thoughts about this in a Rush thread...

He and the other asswipes will seize on this issue and distort and inflame like there's no tomorrow.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8434824&mesg_id=8434939

[JohnnyBoots]

15. It is interesting that they threw out the test because of too many whites and not enough

minorities would be in the group. Should Sotomayor be disqualified because she is Catholic? Should they throw out her body of work since she would only add to the majority? Won't she make too many Catholics on the Supreme Court if we want real diversity? What's good for the New Haven FD should be good enough for the Supreme Court of the United States.....Playing Devil's Advocate. If you juxtapose the two it makes for an interesting comparison.

[fugop]

19. Literacy tests

I don't know enough to comment on specifics of the case, but it's not as if our country hasn't had its share of tests that unfairly targeted minorities. How about those literacy tests that were used to keep minorities from voting, which were still allowed until mid-'60s? And many standardized tests wind up putting poorer test-takers at a disadvantage - after all, how many people living in poverty can afford to throw money at tutors and score-boosting classes? I don't know the specifics of the New Haven test, but if it was indeed an all-test-based promotion, with no experience or ability allowed to account for scoring, I can see why the city was nervous about accepting results that knocked out every applicant from a single group.

It's amazing to me that the media is allowing the GOP to turn this into a whites-vs.-blacks issue, when it was the white applicants vs. the city itself. But hey, why should the "journalists" let facts get in the way of spin?

[JohnnyBoots]

20. Didn't a dyslexic firefighter do well? It seems if special arrangements

needed to be made they were. Also, if literacy was such a large component for the job, why shouldn't the best readers and writers be promoted?

They should have had the test takers names removed and replaced with a number and then graded by an outside party.

[fugop]

22. Yes

Yes, but that, in my opinion, is actually evidence that putting everything on one test can't be subjective. What happens to the other dyslexic applicants who don't happen to have the $1,000 needed to pay for help? Or the firefighters who didn't have the ability to take off work or quit jobs to study full time? I'm not saying all playing fields need to be leveled, but it's the same concern I've always had with the SAT. What happens when I can't afford to pay for my child to take an expensive test-prep course to boost his or her scores? I"m not saying the decision here was right or wrong, because I haven't read enough about it. But I feel very comfortable in saying I don't believe applicants can ever be on a completely level playing field when it comes to an all-or-nothing test situation like this. It's inevitable for some test-takers to have an advantage. So when results come in and show that one race alone has been eliminated for promotion due to a test, there's certainly a possibility that an unfair advantage came into play. Even if the intention wasn't there - as it was with voting literacy tests - it's worth exploring.

I don't know that the test should have been thrown out, but certainly such a discrepancy in results is worth researching.

[JohnnyBoots]

24. Do a little more research on the case. You will see local politics had a pretty heavy hand in the

case being thrown out.

[Blue_Roses]

30. He paid $1000 to study for it though...

and besides, there's more to firefighting than a written exam. I would love to see the test also. I teach Special Ed and everyone DOES INDEED learn differently.

[Raineyb]

33. It is my understanding that in the previous test there was a black firefighter who

scored 3rd or 4th on the list who now scored 13th or so and that troubling results such as that made them think there was something wrong with the test and thus ought to be thrown out.

[CTyankee]

16. The test is "under seal" by the court, in the first place.

Secondly, as I live in New Haven my perspective is a bit different. I am no expert on this case but a lot of this goes to Mayor John DeStefano's longtime relationship with the Rev. Boise Kimber, a quasi leader in the black community. DeStefano has long been apologist for Kimber who is not a very gooe example of a "leader." Kimber once was given some cash for safekeeping by an elderly black woman who had scrimped and saved for her own burial expenses to spare her kids the expense. That very day Kimber paid his daughter's tuition payment at Hopkins Country Day School here in New Haven IN CASH, a kinda strange thing for a parent to do at this exclusive school. Nothing has been really proven, of course, but a LOT of people had problems with it. It is widely suspected that Kimber was threatening to organize a huge backlash in the black community against DeStefano in this year's mayoralty campaign if the test was not thrown out.

I supported John DeStefano in his bids for mayor and in 06 for governor, which he lost. Recently, he has tried to "privatize" the janitors working for the city by demanding that AFSCME take them out of the union in return for saving 27 jobs of AFSCME members at City Hall. The union rightfully refused and 27 people lost their jobs, mainly in areas such as Elderly Services, Family Services, homeless and other Community Services -- in other words, taking away support systems coordination and maintenance for the poorest, youngest and most politically vulnerable segments of our city's population. God only knows what DeStefano would have done to the janitors if he was successful in getting rid of their union protections.

I can no longer support DeStefano and will vote for the only candidate to oppose him, the Green Party candidate (Republicans won't even show up for this one).

I hold DeStefano responsible for this test situation. He did not do due diligence in getting a test that had been used elsewhere with racially balanced results.

What may be forgotten in all this is that the test they used did not serve the white firefighters either. I have no doubt that they studied hard, but if the test had some flaws in it that would work against the black firefighters then there was the possibility that the test results were doomed. So they would be set up for a no win situation. However, since we cannot see the test, how do we know?

[OneGrassRoot]

17. Thanks for that insight, CTyankee!!!

another piece to the puzzle.

:)

[JohnnyBoots]

18. What kind of 'Flaws' working against black firefighters are you talking

about? Can you list any examples that you think may have been present? I have been trying to think of examples, and can't think of any biased questions that deal questions about a job that blacks, whites, latinos, and asians (everybody) do in the same fire department.

Did they seal the test to cover their ass you think?

[CTyankee]

21. I say "flaws" because I can't understand how it can be that no black firefighter

could make the cut. These weren't inexperienced firefighters. All had been tested and were working firefighters at the time; this was a test for promotion not for hiring in the first place. I have heard the argument from the black firefighters association that a more valid test would have included simulation as well as oral and written tests. The association asserts that there are such tests being used successfully in cities now.

I don't know whether the test being under seal was a "covering their ass" situation or not...

But let me ask you this: don't you find it odd that no black firefighter could score as well as the white firefighters did? Do we just assume that the black firefighters didn't study hard? Are black firefighters just "lazy" and/or not as intelligent as white firefighters?

[JohnnyBoots]

23. I agree the test was outdated and I

whole heartedly think that a simulation part should be added, especially for a job like that. It should be noted that one of the 20 suing is Hispanic, so it not entirely an all white pool.

"But let me ask you this: don't you find it odd that no black firefighter could score as well as the white firefighters did? Do we just assume that the black firefighters didn't study hard? Are black firefighters just "lazy" and/or not as intelligent as white firefighters?"

If you want to assume that, you could also assume that most of the firefighters taking this test are from broadly the same geographic area, you could assume that most come from a blue collar background and are not college educated. I would like to see the demographics of the different neighborhoods and corresponding high schools with graduation rates (assuming you need to be a HS grad to join the fire academy). Pertaining to percentages of where the applicant pool came from.

Are we to assume that all of the white firefighters who did well on the test drive in from Greenwich, where they graduated prep school and where tutored on firefighting method and theory by underclassmen at Yale? Is that why the white firefighters did so well? One good broad brush straw man deserves another.

[CTyankee]

25. Public schools in New Haven are NOT the greatest.

You don't have to make that reach to Greenwich and Yale to understand that the public schools serve a great majority of New Haven black students. Greater New Haven's many parochial schools, on the other hand, serve many white working class students. I really don't know if there may that discrepancy with regard to the firefighters. It would be an interesting question. You could also look to surrounding towns such as Hamden, East Haven, West Haven and North Haven where some of the white firefighters might have gone to school before moving to New Haven to gain eligibility to work for the City.

[DatManFromNawlins]

48. There were black firefighters who passed the test

Just not enough. Also, it wasn't just white firefighters who passed in greater number. Latino firefighters also passed with a higher percentage.

[CTyankee]

59. The scores of the black firefighters were lower than the whites so the top scorers

were all white and one hispanic. It wasn't pass/fail.

[jberryhill]

11. The Case Illustrates That She Is Not An Activist Judge

She - and two other judges - let the lower court decision stand. Big deal.

If she disagreed, it would have been 2-1, and the result would still stand.

[izzybeans]

26. Any organization who uses such a test would do the same as the city of New Haven,

if they find that 100% of a particular group did not pass a test. The idea that this case is reverse discrimination is Orwellian in the extreme. Something like that does not happen by chance. Basing the promotions on this test would have opened them up to lawsuits with actual legal merit. Any honest person would question the validity of such a test. And any honest person would stop proceedings until a full review had been done. The city is being punished for doing their due diligence.

There was no disparate impact on the plaintiffs to even bring such a suit. The outcome was the same for all candidates.

This is what the case is about: from the Scotus Wiki: http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=Ricci%2C_et_al._v._DeStefano%2C_et_al.

"They include whether an employer’s actions to prevent disparate impact violates Title VII’s prohibition on disparate treatment and whether an employer’s failure to “certify the result of” an employment test, for fear of disparate impact, violates the Equal Protection Clause. The Court’s answers have the potential to fundamentally alter workplace civil rights protections."

Translating this it means that when an employer identifies the potential of a disparate impact they can not act on it. This is an attempt to hamstring the Civil Rights Act and gut it of any power to coerce employers to take corrective action. Nothing more, nothing less. It's the right's attempt to "make policy" from the bench.

[CTyankee]

31. Well, due diligence would have required the mayor to find a test that had been used before

with racially mixed results in cities like New Haven. The black firefighters association as much as said this. There ARE tests out there that they could have found and used. Some research could have revealed this. It is called "best practices." For the mayor to go ahead with a test that had no track record at all is not what I call doing due diligence, and if the result is a SCOTUS opinion that weakens affirmative action for the rest of the country, well, thank you very much Mayor DeStefano...

[izzybeans]

34. You are asking to correct something that has no bearing on the legal aspect of the case and has the

benefit of hindsight.

Sure that's a mistake, but its one that has nothing to do with the frivolous nature of the case. The question is, we have this test, we now know it has severe problems, or suspect we know...if we go forward with it, we could be acting in a prejudicial manor.

Do you honestly want to handcuff an employer so it is illegal for them to take corrective action if they suspect that they themselves have made a mistake and are in the wrong? How will we hold employers accountable who are discriminating against potential hirees and/or promotion candidates? And then are we really going to claim that the corrective action itself is discriminatory and reverse discrimination...?

Because that's what the case is about.

[CTyankee]

35. You misunderstand my argument. I am blaming the mayor for the mess to begin with.

And I am taking issue with your saying that due diligence was done. Due diligence starts a lot earlier than "Oops, looks like we didn't have a great test." With the stakes so high, would it have killed him to go for a tried and true test, rather than a new test that had NEVER been used before. You've got to think harder than that. And that's what my complaint is all about. It should never have happened in the first place and it has put affirmative action in jeopardy. Not a good thing, don't you agree?

And don't even think for one minute that his "corrective action" wasn't based,in large part, on threats to his upcoming campaign by a corrupt wheeler dealer in New Haven.

I am VERY hopeful that SCOTUS has looked at the test and has found the severe problems you refer to. If they find them, why couldn't the mayor and his staff of Einsteins? They are all Democrats, too, so it is not as if they were prejudiced against blacks. I certainly don't believe they were.

I am totally with you on the merits. I'm just furious that my own mayor may have presided over a huge disaster for affirmative action in our country. I want to be proven wrong, tho, in the long run.

[izzybeans]

68. I love when I argue with someone I agree with.

Makes me realize I need to read more carefully. :)

[TimesSquareCowboy]

27. The way questions are asked can make assumptions about common experiences that are not valid.

Someone once used the example of using an analogy to a sailboat in a question.

[CTyankee]

32. Some tests use simulation. This one did not.

Since all the test takers were seasoned firefighters, a test involving quick thinking, wisdom and leadership skills in hypothetical but realistic situations would make a lot of sense IMO. I would prefer the leadership of my FD to have those attributes rather than essay writing skills any day...

[TimesSquareCowboy]

28. And the context of fire departments should not be ignored.

They are by far the whitest departments in any city. Here in NYC, the Fire Dept wanted to build a new firehouse that would include firefighters and EMTs. EMTs are a racially diverse group. The fire union opposed it tooth and nail, claiming that unspecified 'cultural' differences between firefighters and EMTs made it a bad idea to mix them.

[OneGrassRoot]

29. Seriously? In NYC?

Unbelievable. :(

[sniffa]

36. Reverse racism

doesn't exist.

[rvablue]

37. I just wish I could see the test and make up my own mind on what I think of it.

Does anyone know if it will ever be unsealed?

And why is sealed in the first place? I understand that matters of "personnel" are usually confidential, but if someone sued for harrassment or ageism or some other "personnel" matter wouldn't part of their work records then be public record?

I have no idea? :shrug:

[JohnnyBoots]

55. My money is on that it is sealed because the Mayor is covering his ass.

[boppers]

38. "how one constructs a technical test that favors or discriminates against any race"

Two examples:
-----
a) There is a fire at a golf clubhouse. The are three hydrants on the course at the 5th, 9th, and 18th holes. Which are the closest two hydrants? Explain your reasoning.

b) A boat has a starboard fire, and the boat is listing starboard, how do you direct the streams so as to not capsize the boat? Provide several arguments for the different options.
-----

A biased test can be constructed quite easily. It's much *harder* to construct tests that are free of cultural, linguistic, and social bias. In addition, there were written/oral tests, which not only test technical knowledge and ability, but also test a person's reading, writing, listening, and speaking abilities.

These are firefighters, not professional writers or orators, so essay and oral testing is eyebrow raising (to say the least).

If you want to get *really* deep into the subject of race and merit testing, the topic has many starting points, with one of the more hotly contested subjects here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

[OneGrassRoot]

39. Thanks for that! :) n/t

[seaglass]

40. There was no evidence presented that the test was biased,

I'm not sure that was even the question before the court. I believe the question was whether the city had the right to throw the test results out.

[boppers]

42. Well, there was the court's decision, and how the decision is now being framed.

Since she's a minority, she must have been a racist to allow the city to throw the test out. :sarcasm:

This wouldn't even be a question if she was a "white male".

That being said, I think the city's decision made sense, because even if there was no evidence of bias in the test, or even if there was no evidence to be found and the unexpected test results were simply random, the appearance of bias is still there.

Media Matters weighs in:
http://mediamatters.org/research/200905270036

[seaglass]

44. Sorry, I wasn't looking at this case in the context of the SCOTUS

nomination, I was interested in this when I first heard of it before the SCOTUS took it up because my husband's a firefighter and I know a bit about civil service exams.

I'll read your MediaMatters links

If you're interested here is a link to the Firebirds page (the NH Black Firefighter's org) and the briefs on the case.

http://www.diversityisamatterofnationalsecurity.com/

[boppers]

50. Interesting link!

My little (heh, he's gotten quite big, actually) brother is a Firefighter/EMT, and has interesting stories about the "cultures" in his chosen profession(s). I don't know how it is in NH, but in AZ, there are only so many viable explanations possible for the racial/ethnic composition of the departments.

[OneGrassRoot]

52. Thank you! n/t

[MellowDem]

45. How do you know...

that the white firefighters would know more about golf and boats? Doesn't seem like they're necessarily rich or anything, going to the country club and the yacht club :eyes:
And if they do fight boat fires, how is it culturally biased to have a test about boats? I guess you would have to know something about boats to fight boat fires.

And even the golf course question would be impossible because that would depend on the layout of the course, which no one can guess.

Basically, it's pretty darn hard to make a discriminatory test along racial lines. Socio-economic lines? Maybe not as much.

[boppers]

47. Well, I know you're not a golfer.

Two kinds of rounds: 9 holes, and 18 holes. The first/front nine and back nine. The first nine tees off, and ends, by the clubhouse, as does the back nine, so the tee-off for 1 and 10 are by the clubhouse, as are the holes for 9 and 18. It's a little piece of knowledge that is more likely to be found in cultures that golf regularly.

As far as boat fires, what the heck do "port" and "starboard" have to do with boat fires, vs. boat culture, and culture that considers boating a leisure activity to aspire to, or alternately, grew up in a fishing family? I grew up in Arizona, and totally failed a math test question on tacking a boat...(tacking? Huh?)... I suppose one might ask the same question about "whether or not firefighters who don't golf should fight fires on golf courses", because it helps to think about one's own biases, ones own culture, and how others may not necessarily understand culturally valued terms.

As far as culturally/socially/"race" focused tests, my point was that different skewing can be produced by focusing the questions in different ways. Different groups tend to carry different norms for hobbies, different social values for things to learn about and aspire to, different things that are important. Not that this is universally applicable (Tiger Woods, for example, would do fine on the golf question, regardless of his other background influences), but by focusing on specific elements that a culture favors, results can be skewed.

Oh, and if it's written/oral, and there are varying local dialects used by different "races", it's easy to use that to boost/depress results as well.


edit: missing "("

[MellowDem]

56. About the golf course...

What would stop the 5th hole being right next to the 9th? Just the design of the course.

I still think it is very hard to make a test that will benefit one race over another consistently. After all, if the test takers are all from the same general region, economic background, etc., that leaves you with very little to go off of to create a racially biased test.

As someone else said earlier, I think it has a lot to do with the differences in education going back as early as elementary school. Not a good thing per se, but the test isn't the problem, the disparity in education is.

[Empowerer]

57. Shoe on the other foot test: Imagine it were the other way around . . .

Imagine that, instead of being white, the overwhelming number of those passing the test were black and it was the white firefighters who failed in disproportionate numbers.

Do you think that Pat Buchanan and his crowd would have complained that the test was thrown out? Of course not. They would have DEMANDED that the test be redone since any test that resulted in white being at the bottom of the totem pole must, by its very nature, be biased against them, right?

[MellowDem]

58. Well, if that had been the case...

I'm sure the hypocrites on the right would have been in arms. But in all honesty, if the test isn't biased, then they should let it stand. Racial gaps in test scores can be attested to a lot of other stuff than just the test being biased. Year after year after year blacks score marginally lower than all other races on the SAT and ACT. The gap is predictably the same every time. It's not the test, it's the society. Economics, the culture of education at home, the home and school environment, etc. etc. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can fix the problem.

[Empowerer]

60. Do you really believe

that the black firefighters who took this particular test - who have excelled as firefighters to the point of being eligible for promotion - did less well than the whites because of "the culture of education at home, the home and school environment, etc. etc.?"

I doubt you meant to imply this, but it sounds as if you're saying that blacks tend to do less well on such tests because we are intellectually inferior to whites, for whatever reason. That's just not true.

My point was not just about hypocrisy, but about perspective. I have no doubt that if white firefighters were failing this test in droves, it would never be assumed that this was because those people were intellectually inferior to the blacks who passed. Instead, the results would be seen as evidence that there was something wrong with the test.

But even if you are correct that the "culture" of the black firefighters' lives (assuming that they all came from the same backgrounds) was the reason for their low pass rate, that is further evidence of the need to correct the test since a test that allows such a factor to influence its outcome when it has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to perform as a senior firefighting official is per se problematic.

[MellowDem]

61. I was talking generally

about k-12 education. I was not implying blacks are intellectually inferior. But the kind of education you get k-12 does matter even later in life. It effects your study skills and the approach you take to testing and education for the rest of your life.

I think your analogy would be better if we assumed that white firefighters were a minority on the force in the first place. Even if every racial group was represented exactly how much they should be by their numbers in the firefighter force, there would only be a few blacks who would have been promoted. The fact that none made the score isn't incredibly surprising given the numbers and the fact that these sorts of tests aren't going to automatically break down along racial lines proportionally.

As it stands, if this test isn't biased, there is nothing that can be done to change the test for blacks to make it more likely for them to pass and not other members. It would not fix anything and in fact would just allow local governments to ignore more endemic problems in their population if they can just shift who they promote at will to reflect racial proportions in the community.

[Empowerer]

62. "The fact that none made the the score isn't surprising given the numbers . . . "

I think you're missing my point, but you are illustrating the problem I am noting.

Why should it make any difference whether there were fewer blacks in the pool? If blacks failed the test in disproportionate numbers, it is an indication of a problem with the test - just as the fact that white test takers failed in numbers disproportionate to their numbers in the population would be an indication of a similar problem.

Unfortunately, whenever blacks are represented in lower numbers than their proportion in the population, it is shrugged off by many, as you have done, as no big deal, as proof that the whites were just better qualiied than the blacks. Yet whenever whites are represented in lower numbers than THEIR proportion, it is seen as a problem, as proof that the persons of color were given some type of unfair preference that resulted in the white people being harmed.

In this instance, it wasn't a small number of black firefighters who failed the test. NO black firefighters made the cut. That is an indication that there is a problem with the test. If it were the other way around and NO white firefighters passed, people would not treat it as no big deal. In fact, even if some white white firefighters passed but in numbers below their proportion in the population, I doubt that anyone would say, "it isn't incredibly surprising given that these sorts tests aren't going to automatically break down alon racial lines proportionally."

In other words, in our society, it is still all too common for people to assume that success by whites is the norm and, in fact, is an entitlement and it is perfectly acceptable for whites to be overrepresented in a variety of coveted areas. But the minute it appears that blacks are overrepresented in those areas, red flags go right up and questions are raised about fairness, "reverse discrimination," etc.

I am quite certain, based on my experience and study in this field, that the reason some people are upset about the test being thrown out is that it upended an advantage that some whites have come to expect and believe to be their due This isn't about having something unfairly taken away - it's about having to share a pie that traditionally belonged only to them. In other words, some people have grown so comfortable with a sense of natural entitlement to compete within an artificially exclusive arena that the thought of having to actually compete with a broader pool of other qualified people provokes anger and resentment.

[MellowDem]

67. I disagree

I rarely hear about whites being underrepresented and have never heard about a test being biased towards them. I don't say that because blacks aren't represented exactly proportionally it should be shrugged off. But the numbers from this test alone are too few to be able to automatically conclude anything. This just isn't a big enough sample period to be able to say anything with certainty is all. Much less to just throw out the test.

The reason some people are upset is because the test was thrown out because of purported bias, but a lot of people disagree it was biased. So the whole argument is over the fairness of the test, which hasn't been released. The argument that a test is automatically to blame when the people who take it don't succeed exactly proportionally along racial lines is ridiculous. There are a lot of other factors out there that are being readily ignored.

Like I said earlier, SAT and ACT results year after year show racial gaps that are fairly predictable. If the tests were biased, the results would vary wildly from year to year as it is pretty hard to make a biased test just along racial lines, much less make the the same amount of bias year after year. What the results show is not a problem with the test, it is a problem with our society. It reflects the fact that minorities live disproportionally in poverty, a huge indicator of school success and therefore standardized test scores. And that's just one factor. Ignoring or refusing to acknowledge that these tests are given in an unfair world, not the other way around with unfair tests being given in a fair world, is damaging and counterproductive.

[Rwalsh]

46. Those are not racially bias questions

They are class bias questions.

They discriminate against lower class black and white people.

This issue is more about class than race.

[boppers]

49. That really depends on one's ideas about class, and race.

In a racist society, class is used to maintain, and perpetuate, racism.

With regards to "race", until fairly recently, AA's weren't allowed into boating clubs, or golf courses, no matter how much money they had, or even if they had a wealthy family member or friend willing to pay their way in. Thus, there are many less (by proportion) families with a long history, and knowledge of, recreational boating and golfing.

[Thothmes]

65. So the only people that can pass this test is

A. being white, or B. being Tiger Woods or J. Paul Reason.

[Feron]

41. The firefighters have a website:

http://www.newhaven20.com/

[babylonsister]

43. Here's an article I came across today that might help...

http://washingtonindependent.com/44462/gop-support-for-no-child-left-behind-conflicts-with-attacks-on-sotomayor

[babylonsister]

51. Here's another...

By: Hilzoy

The Ricci Case
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_05/018369.php

[OneGrassRoot]

53. Thanks for all this, babylonsister. :) n/t

[Puzzler]

63. The GOP hate-machine tries to give you the impression...

... that this case is "typical". However, you can be sure that they have gone through her many hundreds (or thousands) of cases over her entire career... and this is the "best" they can find.

[wiggs]

64. Isn't all this beside the point? By not agreeing to hear the case, the appellate court

indicates that the lower court effectively and appropriately handled the case, right? That's all.

At issue was whether or not the City has the power to set aside the test it administered and whether or not it followed policies appropriately. It's probably not as complex as it seems...likely no need for Sotomayor's panel to analyze the test, deeply consider the process, etc. They likely just needed to know whether or not the lower court itself conducted an appropriate process and that no outstanding or unresolved or incongruous issues remain.

[CTyankee]

66. I agree with you but the other side would say "Why didn't she vote to overturn and

assert the rights of the white firefighters?" It's a simple as that for these people. Also, with no written opinion they claim that she was trying to slip something in unnoticed.

I live in New Haven and hear lots of this stuff nowadays...