Democratic Underground:

[Occam Bandage]

[MadBadger]

1. Its the same place, just different arguments.

[redqueen]

4. +1

[NoPasaran]

2. Say what you will about Teen Beat, it's a successful business model

[Occam Bandage]

7. The one thing that most irritates me about "teen beat" threads

is that Teen Beat is a defunct copycat of Tiger Beat. It would be like claiming something is like Cracked Magazine and not Mad Magazine.

[NoPasaran]

14. Ironic, when you consider that teens have greater disposable incomes than do tigers

[On the Road]

8. ROFL

:rofl:

[omega minimo]

35. Kevin's the cute one

[grantcart]

3. fast becoming a place where . .

"fast becoming threads" are locked in 2 seconds.


Although this one actually has a purpose.

[Pirate Smile]

5. How frequently do these spurts of "it's not the same as the good old halcyon days of DU"come around?

Every 6 months? 1 Year? 3 months?

Plus - how shocking would it be that DU has to evolve now that we have a Democratic President when it has never been around during a Dem presidency in the past?

[noiretextatique]

6. change is inevitable: it's the one certainty of life

death is the other.
change is simple: either you manage it, or it manages you.

[CJCRANE]

9. Same as it ever was...

:silly:

[denbot]

10. The only difference is I don't feel the need to flame Naderites.

Ah, the good old days.

[Political Tiger]

11. I think it's becoming too impatient.

To quote Nancy W, who summed it up perfectly in my view - "after 8 years of Bush, (DU) has Political PTSD (PPTSD): after being lied to and manipulated and betrayed so much, it doesn’t take much for us to be distrustful."

[Occam Bandage]

18. Haven't we always been?

We were attacking Democrats for not pushing through all of their agenda in '07, even though they had what I believed was a high level of success despite a then-record number of filibusters and vetoes/veto threats. I posted countless times that we only had 51 Democrats (including Lieberman) in the Senate, we needed 60 votes to defeat a filibuster, and we'd need 67 to override a veto or to convict in an impeachment trial. It was still the same chorus of "betrayal, betrayal, they haven't done everything we want yet." Hell, people here blamed the Dems for failing to reinstate habeas corpus, even though that vote was strictly party line.

Impatience is part of DU's makeup. So is a general distrust of Democrats among some, and so is a willingness to defend Democrats among some.

[tridim]

12. I think this recent schism is just a result of DU existing for the first time..

while the Democrats are in power. I don't think anyone knew how DU would react.

That said, there are also more trolls here than ever. Again, not surprising.

IMO DU will be back to "normal" within 6 months.

[CJCRANE]

15. ...and in 6 months there will be a new schism! nt

[rucky]

13. Has always been fast becoming a different kind of place.

as the needs of the users change.

[TwilightZone]

16. The tone really hasn't changed much.

The '08 primaries were very similar to the '04 ones, and we seem to be in kind of an extended-primary battle even though Obama is no longer Candidate Obama.

For a while, I thought that '08 was more brutal, but then I looked back through some old threads from the '04 primaries and realized that the same vitriol existed then. The funny thing is that some of the sources were exactly the same.

[beachmom]

17. I thought it was going to be:

"Great liberal Site" or "Greatest liberal site".

[TreasonousBastard]

19. No real change in attitude, just the players...

seems like as fast as the dumbfuck wing gets cleaned out with the trolls there are new ones to take their places.

That wouldn't be so bad if the brighter posters with good research skills and the ability to make rational arguments who leave were replaced as fast as the assholes are.

[ecstatic]

20. dupe

dupe

[ecstatic]

21. DU changed during the run up to the election in '04

(Dean vs. Clark vs. Kerry vs. Edwards etc) and hasn't changed since. That was the first time the divisions became evident.

[Occam Bandage]

23. I wasn't present. But was that a change,

or was it preexisting divisions becoming, as you say, evident for the first time?

[ecstatic]

25. Probably the latter, but civility declined

drastically... Previously, there was no reason to lash out that hard at other members. My memory is kind of fuzzy though.

[TwilightZone]

26. I'd agree with that, though it also might have been the first time that the focus here was on Dems.

And not the Bush Administration.

[JitterbugPerfume]

22. it has always been

evolving into a different place . New people show up , older posters quit posting . It isn't better or worse, it is just different .

[MADem]

24. It's much less fun, I think. Much less commonality of purpose.

Way too many hurt feelings.

A lot of griping over small things, as well as going all foolishly googly over small things.

The big issues? Hard to discuss, here. Too much advocacy and anger, not enough pragmatism, or discussions of strategy or tactics. IMO. It's "I want it NOW. End of discussion." If one tries to discuss the path to "it" being longer than one might wish, one is derided as a collaborator, Republican, troll, what-have-you.

Seeing things realistically isn't an asset here. It's a reason to sic the dawgs on ya!

[TwilightZone]

27. Yes, being a realist...

is rather frowned upon around here.

Though, that's not really a new development, either.

[MADem]

29. I know. It's not like it popped up yesterday--it just seems more intense, lately.

What's a bit of a bummer, too, is being accused of "not caring" or being on the opposite side of an issue than you actually are, just becaue you won't pipe dream and declare the impossible or difficult to be inevitable in the near-term.

I spent a career anticipating pitfalls, and doing a decent job predicting and avoiding them. It's in my nature to look downstream. I never caught so much shit for it as I do here, though! Even when I was stomping all over a pet project!

[TwilightZone]

31. More intense - very possible.

Expectations are (from my point of view as a political realist) simply out of the ball park in many instances, and I think that's part of it. I think that some people honestly thought that all of our problems would be solved simply by electing a Democratic president. When life didn't change overnight, expectations become demands, and many of the demands being made aren't realistic and/or don't take political realities into consideration.

That is not to say that Obama has not made mistakes or taken stances that were unexpected and/or disappointing. He has and will, no doubt, continue to do so. However, expecting him to quickly fulfill every one of his campaign promises (or fill them at all, for that matter) isn't realistic, either. Campaign promises meet reality after every single election the minute that they meet the world of compromise known as Washington, DC.

What I don't really understand is the all-or-nothing approach that some take with their demands. Health care reform is a good example. Some people are ready to declare any attempt at health care reform a total and complete failure if anything less than single-payer health care and the complete destruction of the insurance companies is not passed immediately.

There is little argument that huge changes are needed in the health care system, but the expectation that all of those changes can be made in one swipe of a pen simply isn't realistic. Health care reform is going to be an ongoing process. I'd much rather we take a systematic approach that makes continual, significant improvements than make one overreaching attempt that is doomed to failure and kills the entire reform movement.

To many, that seems like unacceptable pessimism, but the debate over "Hillary Care" largely killed the health care reform prospects for most of 15 years. The political climate has changed, of course, but not as significantly as many might want to believe and certainly not enough to convince Congress and Obama to eliminate an entire industry.

[MADem]

32. That's it, exactly. And your health care example is a good illustration of the

jungle to be hacked through to get anything done. I agree that an incremental approach is best in that regard--they'll see us coming otherwise, and lobby like hell to stop us!! It's easier to pick away at the edges, bit by bit, to come up with something that serves us all, and with any luck we'll be able to do it right, tweaking and fixing as we go, if we take a little time at it.

[TwilightZone]

34. Yep. This comment is often met with intense derision, but...

sometimes, patience really is the key. We'd love to have everything overnight, but with an issue as enormous and complicated as health care, I think it's more important to be persistent and to have a strategy than to make snap decisions that we'll later regret.

[MADem]

36. If I ruled the world, every day would be the first day of Spring!!!

Until I realized, after a while, that my subjects were starving to death...because you need seasons to grow crops!

Then, I'd change my mind, and go for seasons of brilliant, appropriate weather, to include precipitation, with not too many temperature extremes or dangerous conditions!

It ain't always smart to be hasty. Can't dither, but nothing wrong with thinking things through, or changing your mind if you've tried out what was thought to be a good idea, but in fact in practice isn't working.

[TwilightZone]

37. Nice one.

Maybe that's why I always wanted to live in San Diego - it's the same weather all the time! (Ok, not really...but often.)

I know that this is kind of a divergent comment from the topic at hand, but I tend to return to the thought that Obama has inherited a situation that is very serious, ridiculously complex, and for which there are few quick solutions. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt until I have reason to do otherwise, as opposed to assuming the worst from the start.

[MADem]

38. It's related to the subject, and I agree with you.

I have to laugh when I'm placed in the "bot" camp, or the "uncritical worshipper" crew, when I say similar things, because he sure as hell wasn't my favorite, and I wasn't happy at all when he got the nom. I wasn't even enthusiastic about his inaugural, very much. Sure, it was history, but I wasn't "Ooooh/Ahhhh/Boohoo/Oh Happy Day" feeling it. I'd be lying if I said I was.

That said, I believe in giving people a fair shot, and he's done very well thus far, particularly considering the heaping helping of shit he's had to deal with. I give him very good marks, overall, and I'm glad that he's doing well, too, because I like annoying the GOP. Once he got the job, I got behind the guy--I sure wasn't going to hope for his failure like some seem to do--the stakes are just too high.

I also have to say that his personal staff have, for the most part (those lame gifts to the Browns excepted--they'd have been better off just running over to the Smithsonian gift shop) done a very good job as well. The discipline, the focus, and what seems to be a deliberate effort to avoid cockiness is a good thing. I hope they stay on that track.

[Captain Hilts]

39. Well stated, as usual. nt

[ZombieHorde]

28. I voted "Still the same kind of place it has been."

Though the primaries may have been a little rougher.

[Robyn66]

30. Its a lot less fun

I have noticed there is little to no tolerance for discussion of differing ideas. I usually lurk because I enjoy civil debate instead of the attacks I have seen around here lately

[Phoonzang]

33. Is just the flip side of Free Republic.

With a bit more intellectual content and a much better-looking interface. Still has the same amount of raving fanatics and purists with no connection to reality.

[iamthebandfanman]

40. OTHER:

I LIKE BANANAS!@#

[JuniperLea]

41. Same as it ever was... same as it ever was...

Letting the days go by, letting the water pull me down...

It's always been just like this. People come and people go, but the mix is always exactly the same.

[iamthebandfanman]

42. i agree with the comin' and goin'

but i dunno if the mix has been the same necessarily...

bush brought out the 'activist' in a lot of people new to politics.. for better or worst. lol

p.s.
like the song reference ;)

[JuniperLea]

43. Maybe that's part of the problem...

The "better or worst" bit... after 8 years of activism against a solid cause, people seem to be making junk up to appease their addiction.

:shrug:


P.S.

Some days all I can do is speak in lyrics and song titles... it's a curse:)

[struggle4progress]

44. The same as always, but different!

I'm practicing in case I ever decide to run for office

[billyoc]

45. Underground, my ass.

No reflection on DU, really, it's just hard to be the "underground" when you're in charge of everthing. :eyes: