SO: Nobody watched the CNN presser just now??? the one where the Prez

[cliffordu]

said it'll be up to the AG to decide to prosecute those who crafted the torture memos???

Maybe a nice "I was wrong" from the more hysterical viewers out there would be in order at this juncture.

[babylonsister]

1. Good luck with that. That was a wonderful presser! I'm ecstatic! nt

[FrenchieCat]

72. That's our President......

Some of us know him,
and some of us are just getting to know him.

I'm estatic that some of us were correct in my assessment....

Not to float the boat, but some of us seem pretty prescient thus far. :)

[cliffordu]

74. Yes......Yes we are....

:hi:

[Beetwasher]

78. It's Amazing To See Shit I've Been Posting About FOR WEEKS Finally Being Understood

here on DU.

How long have I been posting about the independence of DOJ in these investigations and how Obama had to keep his distance and stay above the fray???

CAN I GET A WITNESS????

:hi:

[cliffordu]

81. AMEN!!!!!!

[Beetwasher]

83. Thanks Bro!

I feel somewhat vindicated!

[Kaleko]

96. You did explain the legal situation in countless posts,

and I've learned a lot from these discussions since I'm not a legal scholar.

Let's face it, very few comments here can qualify as expert legal opinions.

I've thanked you before and will gladly do it a dozen times more.

[Beetwasher]

99. Thanks!

:hi:

[EmilyAnne]

101. Love you, Beetwasher! I've learned so much from you, Frenchie and Clifford.

President Obama deserves an optimistic appraisal.
Its not "blind allegiance."
Its taking a little bit of time to examine the "why" behind some of his words and actions and adding some good old common sense.

[Beetwasher]

106. Awww!

Thanks! :loveya:

[cliffordu]

119. aw, shucks,

Thanks!!!

:fistbump:

[Mopar151]

107. Amen, brotha!

Your posts were the best explanation I read anywhere regarding the legal obligations that have to be followed.

[Beetwasher]

110. Thanks Man!

:toast:

[mkultra]

141. i saw you beet. Many props to you.

[Beetwasher]

2. Oh Ye Of Little Faith!

:thumbsup:

[Soylent Brice]

3. saw it. now time for the test we always fail on, follow through.

but i am ecstatic at the thought. fingers crossed...

C'MON Holder!!!!!!!

[stray cat]

4. I always prefer a legal process to "witch hunt" or scapegoating

[cliffordu]

6. I'm real fond of the rule of law, too.

I notice the usual haters aren't chiming in on this thread. I wonder why.

[havocmom]

70. Rule of Law, Seperation of Powers, A.G. & DOJ working for the nation, not a party...

Wow, this is some good shit! :smoke:

[cliffordu]

73. I'm a little weepy, actually, feels like America.

sheeit.

[havocmom]

79. Understand.

Can't get my coffee down. There seems to be a huge lump in my throat. It's as big as, well, as hope for our beloved country. Damn, it does feel good, though.

That old English drinking tune, with those alternate lyrics, is playing in my head. It is the Fourth of July in my mind, and the colors are flying in bright light.

[CTyankee]

86. I say give 'em a fair trial and then hang 'em.

Just kidding!!

[AtomicKitten]

5. Hell yes. Never doubted it for a minute.

:thumbsup:

[cliffordu]

10. Me neither.

Crickets from the haters, though.

[Egnever]

18. Huge godzilla sized crickets!

and me neither!

[AtomicKitten]

56. President Obama called it ILLEGAL in his speech before the CIA.

I KNEW then there was no way in hell he could with good conscience let it slide. The Department of Justice is now obligated to investigate and prosecute.

On edit: I will add that Holder intervening in the Stevens prosecution set him up to be a fair and just arbiter.

:bounce:

[rockymountaindem]

7. He's still no better than Goering!

:sarcasm:

[eleny]

8. Just watched and am glad I held my powder

This chess game isn't over yet.

[Adelante]

9. Shit! I missed it nt

[cliffordu]

12. I'm sure that Keith and Rachel wil be all over it tonight.

[Peacetrain]

11. Missed it , but I got the good news in another thread

:)

[Cali_Democrat]

13. WOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

:applause:

[Egnever]

14. The usual suspects are conspicuously absent today it seems.

[cliffordu]

19. Hmm...Maybe Tuesday is Medicine Day.

or a staff meeting or something.

Maybe the talking points are late.

[Solomon]

Oh they'll be here. Just wait.

That's just one issue. They'll find another one to blow up again.

[mkultra]

142. Its probably free pony day at freeper land.

[high density]

15. This won't be enough for them

They want the actual people who performed the torture to be prosecuted.

[Luminous Animal]

21. Yes. Yes I do.

I also want those who ordered the torture to be prosecuted.

[Alcibiades]

98. and the doctors

should not be able to practice medicine anywhere. Period.

[cliffordu]

121. Really. Fucking disgusting...."first, do no harm. ....." ha.

Is there NO moral stance that the right wing won't destroy???

[bigjohn16]

117. Actually I think most of us want the people who broke the law to be prosecuted.

I'm glad President Obama clarified his administrations position.

[Luminous Animal]

16. It also should be up to the AG

to prosecute everyone else involved.

I'm not happy with this "just the lawyers" option.

[cliffordu]

22. I don't care about the foot soldiers. I want blood from the architects.

ALL the architects

[Luminous Animal]

29. That is all fine and dandy...

but the lawyers were not the architects, they were the tools to legitimize the torture. The memos were cover for a program that was already in existence both on paper and in practice.

[Thrill]

25. Holder already said No to CIA agents

[Luminous Animal]

31. Yes, I know.

[PopSixSquish]

17. You Mean the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the United States Government Decides This?

The devil you say...

The office of Attorney General was established by Congress by the Judiciary Act of 1789. The original duties of this officer were "to prosecute and conduct all suits in the Supreme Court in which the United States shall be concerned, and to give his advice and opinion upon questions of law when required by the President of the United States, or when requested by the heads of any of the departments."

Sic 'em Eric!

[cliffordu]

26. I believe Eric Holder is the person for the job.

[PopSixSquish]

36. It Was Always Going to Be Up to the AG

President Obama's statements as well as those from Rahm and Axelrod were political statements. If Mr. Holder decides to prosecute, then that will be a legal proceeding as well it should be. I would say that I'm surprised more people don't get this, but I'm not. Darth Cheney isn't out there on the television because he's lonely, he's out there because he's scared. Anything the GOP can do to make this seem like political payback, they will.

Legal proceedings are a completely different matter...

[Beetwasher]

85. Cheney Is Doing The ONLY Thing He Knows How To Do: ATTACKING

He's being backed into a corner. His activity can now be fully understood. I'm sure he knew before we did that this was coming, so he was trying to get out in front by ATTACKING.

Yup, prosecutions are coming. He knows it, that's why he crawled out of his hole and started attacking.

[Supersedeas]

109. As well as it ought to have been the whole time--the political statements were out of line.

[spartan61]

20. A great presser! Now I have a question:

Can we, the American people, call, write, e-mail, etc. Attorney General Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate those who ordered the torture or would that be considered partisan and, thus, ignored. I'm ready to do all I can to see those criminals in the previous admin exposed and charged and arrested and tried and convicted.

[ieoeja]

93. I see no need for a special prosecutor.

As Ken Starr demonstrated, a special prosecutor is just as likely to politicize the process as any other. More likely, in fact, given that Ken Starr being one among few probably means the percentage of politicized prosecutions by special prosecutors is higher than that among regular Federal prosecutors.

[monmouth]

23. I'm thinking this was the script from the beginning, I really do. Remember

chess vs. checkers. Obama makes his move(s), weeks later the back doors open for others to complete the move. Cheney not allowed to play in this game, he's out.

[Egnever]

42. I agree

Inflame the public make them demand investigations then walk in and open the flood gates. His statement at the release of the memos was very precise. He knew what he was doing.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. I'm more than glad to hear that- he's a good man.

not a god- not the messiah, not perfect-
gotta say-
I'm glad he's President!
:hi:

[Zen Democrat]

27. Finally. I've been trying to reassure family members that the Justice Dept. has the only say in this

If the White House dictates who is or isn't prosecuted, that's unethical and probably illegal. It's Bush/Cheney operating procedure.

Obama really has his hands full and doesn't especially want to add to his woes -- but it's not his call.

[MarjorieG]

28. Loved every bit of the presser, especially the nuance of the problem, his challenges to keep us safe

We must distinguish between our professed call for justice and (more real, I think) sense of revenge, because highly unlikely we bring down the real culprits in the Bush admin.

Precedent for one, what they did in name of unusual terror threat (they'll argue), and legal defense of the lower level getting direct okay from lawmakers.

[cascadiance]

30. Now more than ever, champion "DO THE RIGHT THING OBAMA!"

message, so that he knows he has our support if he goes ahead and appoints this prosecutor and gets the official investigation ball rolling...

We should not:

1) continue to attack him without acknowledging that he's coming half way on this...

or

2) step back and do nothing and act like the problem is now resolved.

Now is the time to channel our energy to ensure he and the justice department follow through and do the right thing.

We need to make sure he's aware that his best path to "move forward" without distractions for other priorities, is to make sure that investigations move forward and prosecutions come soon afterward. Make him aware that by ignoring the torture problem, his goal of "moving forward" to other priorities will be even harder to achieve, not easier...

[jenmito]

32. There are at least two other threads about it. We ARE talking about it!

:hi:

[cliffordu]

34. Yo!!

:hi:

[Egnever]

37. Cant be enough of them for me!

this is sweet news. Not that I didnt expect it.

[vaberella]

33. they won't say it...leave it alone...n/t

[olegramps]

35. There is no apology warranted.

It is absolutely clear that President Obama has just done his first significant FLIP-FLOP.

[Egnever]

38. LOL

wow do your arms hurt from all the reaching you are doing?

[EmilyAnne]

103. I don't think he's feeling any pain, if you know what I mean.

:crazy:

[cliffordu]

41. Yep. That's it. A john Kerry Flip flop....

:rofl:


And, for the idjits,

:sarcasm:

[emulatorloo]

49. What is the term I am looking for? Oh yeah -- EPIC FAIL!

Obama isn't "flip-flopping" -- you obviously paid no attention to his masterful handling of McCain during the campaign.

As to the idiotic concept of "Flip-Flop" so favored by Republican SpinMeisters, remember this quote:


"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"

[Cali_Democrat]

51. LOL.....I knew Obama would get attacked if he remained open to prosecutions

You've proven my point.

You people are too easy. And yes, I said you people!!!

:rofl:

[Baltoman991]

88. Flip-Flop?

Hardly. Near as I can tell Obama himself never made a statement himself. It was alwasy through a spokesperson. And last I heard Rahm might have jumped the gun Sunday with his statement.

So honestly, where is the flip-flop you speak of?

[politicasista]

102. **crickets** n/t

[ecstatic]

128. you are so lame! nt

[vaberella]

129. What?! Where? n/t

[w4rma]

39. He's handled the torture issue extremely well from the very start, imho.

He's doing very poorly on the bailout issue, however. Notice how the people he hired in each area affect Obama's effectiveness in each area?

[yourguide]

40. LMAO...Excellent

Cheney is now probably pooping his pants after all his bluster about releasing memos.

[Voice for Peace]

43. I was wrong to jump to conclusions... but I didn't get hysterical or become a hater

in all fairness there has been an awful lot of information about "moving forward" statements and it's easy to get confused here on DU. All the facts, stuff like that.

[Egnever]

46. The noise can get quite loud here

you get kudos from me for this post!

[meli224]

48. I think President Obama wants to keep this as far away from

him as possible. He needs to get big things done for this country, and by putting himself in the middle of this process it will destroy any chance he has. That is why he is pushing it to Holder. This was probably planned all along.

[cliffordu]

52. I know there's been a LOT of conclusions drawn,

Hell, I've drawn a few bad ones myself. What I've learned about Obama is to wait. His timing is what is important to him, not ours.

I fully expect Holder to wait till the rape/murder pictures and other evidence at Abu graib gets out before he starts convening a grand jury or appoints a SP.

The public outcry has to come from across the board before this gets painted as anything other than 'witch hunt'

by the MSM.


And I was talking about the haters that spend all their time on here denigrading the President and everything he does.

[DevonRex]

65. And a lot of misinformation and cherry picking by those who want to confuse

people.

You are to be commended for not getting hysterical in the face of all that. :hi:

[emulatorloo]

44. Thanks for posting this. . .pretty much what I thought was coming given

the reporting about Holder considering his options on how to go about this. Newsweek article, Mike Isikoff, he was on Rachel talking about it last night.

[polmaven]

45. Wow...ANOTHER

Obama Press Conference.....I LOVE that! This President has had more of them in his first 93 days than Bush had in all his 8 years....Now THAT is transparency, and THAT is change we can believe in!

[cliffordu]

53. Sarcasm tag??

I don't know how to read that.

Odd.

[EmilyAnne]

105. I think that poster was being sincere. Everything about the press conferences is true!

He is talking to the American people, informing us all along the way.
Bush kept secrets, told lies when he spoke to us and went on vacation ignoring important memos.
They are like polar opposites, thank god.

Now, let's imagine a President John McCain releasing torture memos or having a conference like this one today!

:scared:

[polmaven]

114. What's odd about it?

Do you think that just because I have a Hillary avatar I cannot fully appretiate what this president is an will be doing? Most of us got over the primaries a very long time ago.

[cliffordu]

122. NO NO NO.....

I've seen criticism of Obama for the number of press conferences and was confused for a bit -


I meant the question as an earnest question at the time....Thanks for clarifying.

:hi:

[ClarkUSA]

123. Yup.

[CBR]

47. I am curious about where the bar will shift next.

Chess not checkers...

[cliffordu]

54. Nice try.

be sure to play our home game,

[CBR]

57. Huh? To be clear, I am making fun of people who always

claim Obama will not follow through and does, just not in the way they demand.

[cliffordu]

59. Sorry, Not enough coffee - No harm no foul.

:hi:

[CBR]

60. No problem. It wasn't that clear but I am loving the game he is

playing.

[mkultra]

143. well, Its the black bar, so even here it will be set higher than usual.

[cliffordu]

148. Yes it will.

[Teaser]

50. PRESIDENT HITLER CYANIDE McCANCER CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO FOLLOW THROUGH

.

[cliffordu]

55. You forgot socialist fascist.

[Teaser]

61. YES. AND ALSO

cocks.

(obligatory internet meme segue)

[cliffordu]

67. Nice. YOu need a modifier of some sort, though...

Like "Huge" or "Thick" or "throbbing"

you know, jazz it up a little.

[Teaser]

76. nah, "also, cocks" has a long and storied history

and I would not wish to sully it with modifiers

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=also%2C%20cocks

[Egnever]

68. Sarah!

Hows trig! and also!:rofl:

[Egnever]

58. wow

That was....a little on the crazy side. check your meds please.

[Teaser]

62. DEFENDERS OF PRESIDENT HITLER CYANIDE McCANCER ARE CONSTITUTION RAPISTS

.

[cliffordu]

64. Cheney, Izzat you????

:rofl:

[Egnever]

66. Weee!

guess you are going for a flame out? Or maybe you are one of the people being lined up for prosecution?

Either way I seriously suggest you check those meds. Did you remember to take them?

[Teaser]

71. psst...dude...read my other posts...

you never read this

[cliffordu]

75. Not to worry about teaser -

Solid to the core.



caps lock notwithstanding.

:rofl:

[90-percent]

63. Barack

The dude is a three dimensional chess player.

however, it is my obligation as a citizen of a democracy to criticize my government when I feel it's heading in the wrong direction.

And nothing has felt more wrong to me than Obama's stand on the Bush White house complicity in TREASON, STARTING ILLEGAL WARS, directing TORTURE methods from the White House, and all the other general lawlessness that was Bush.

And I go eyeball to eyeball with my Congressman about these issues REPEATEDLY.

This is a nation of laws, not men! My citizenship obligations force me to do my part to KEEP IT SO.

-90% Jimmy

[cliffordu]

69. Ever time i've been ready to give up he shows himself to be a master at

message control, which is all this is, really. He knows exactly when to play which card.

Which is why the Right is completely flummoxed. He doesn't operate at the rate of conventional wisdom, his timing is completely his own - and that prevents the talking pointers from getting really organized against him.



Chess.

[havocmom]

77. Our obligation is to question power. Obama seems to know that and use it well

He speaks, we respond, we raise a clamor, we do his bidding of forcing the issue. Gee, We The People are involved again and DOJ is not a branch of a political party.

That is change I can believe in. And I believed the steps back to this place called democracy have been carefully planned out. WE have to step up to the tasks to fix the nation. Obama seems to be guiding us, like a good parent, to strive toward our potentials.

I like it very much. Maybe people will stop whining that 'somebody HAS to do something about...' and start rolling up their sleeves! The 'somebody' in a democracy is us!

[cliffordu]

80. Great post!

[HopeOverFear]

89. Excellent points

[Willo]

108. Agreed.

Yes We Can. Simple words with deep and deeper meanings every day.

It's like he's saying "I will not let you give up. If you want it, fight for it."

[90-percent]

140. thanks havocmom!

"The somebody that has to do something is us."

Seems pretty clear to me!

Let's get to work, my fellow concerned Patriotic Americans!

-90% jimmy

[Avalux]

82. I'm at work and couldn't watch. Thanks for posting the good news!

I expected this would happen but not so soon. Fantastic! :applause:

[mmonk]

84. Of course it is up to the AG.

And what branch is he from? There is no off the hook as far as responsibility goes until justice moves forward.

[mkultra]

144. is is from the autonomous non political branch called the attorneys general office.

Never has so much passion for right be infused with so much stupidity.

[grantcart]

87. No one needs to admit they were wrong. The administration was ambiguous at the begining.

Obama deserves very high marks for releasing the memos but kind of let the country hanging on what should be done about it.


BTW. The President's shift on policy = I am guessing this is one of those instances where his blackberry was ringing and he was able to step outside the White House bubble.

[cliffordu]

91. Awwwwww....

Come on, grantcart, don't ruin my fun with the 'extremely dissatisfied'

PLEEEEZE!!!!

I won't bait them with any more nasty names, I promise!!!

[grantcart]

104. If you think that I am going to fall for your same old trick and help

kick your thread to the top forget it.


Not going to do it.

[cliffordu]

124. YOU redefine the meaning of the phrase

"Cheap date"

:rofl:

[mkultra]

145. lol..

fyi. policy didn't change.

[NYC_SKP]

90. BWAAHAAHAHA!

Hold your breath, go ahead, hold it.

No body is gonna fess up and say they were wrong... they'll move on to the next faux drama.

Asshats.

:toast:

[cliffordu]

92. Yes, you are absolutely correct.

They are asshats.

:rofl:

[mkultra]

146. Giant peacock feathered 10 gallon asshats.

[mzmolly]

94. Yes, an "I was wrong" discussion area is definitely in order.

;)

[Wednesdays]

95. Well, I'll be danged...I've gotta stock up on popcorn now

:popcorn:

[lunatica]

97. Maybe the national reaction impressed Obama

Every single activist group I subscribe to like MoveOn, Democracy Now, Code Pink, etc., have been sending emails asking to sign petitions regarding an investigation on the torture. Maybe President Obama saw that and decided not to stand in the way. I'm sure they've gotten a tsunami of emails.

Maybe President Obama was even waiting for this...

[Kaleko]

111. Yes, and MAYBE Obama himself is smart enough to plan his moves strategically

beforehand. Maybe he spent sleepless nights during the campaign thinking about how to deal with the BushCo crimes without jeopardizing his own administration's success once he won the presidency.

[Egnever]

112. Thats just crazy talk

this guy clearly just jumps in with both feet. The idea that he plans anything is ludicrous.

[Kaleko]

115. Yarr, I'm one of those crazed conspiracy theorists

who thinks that Obama plotted every major move far in advance together with a bunch of deviants who relentlessly conspired to seize power. And not only in this country but to gain influence over the entire world.

There's a song for nutters like us, check it out at Vimeo where the sound quality is better than YouTube.

http://www.vimeo.com/1389610

[cliffordu]

125. Oh, NO!!!! That could NEVER be!!!!!!!

:sarcasm:

Fucking guy doesn't do ANYTHING without planning it. Kind of exhilarating and scary all at the same time.

[Number23]

137. Exactly! The cries of "the people's clamour made him change his mind!1!" ring hollow

Obama's popularity is absurdly high right now. Who were all of the unhappy people who flooded his office with cries to prosecute??

And somehow I'm supposed to believe that with the economy in the hideous situation it's in right now, THAT many Americans contacted Obama to make him "change his mind" on torture prosecutions?? That scenario doesn't hold a bit of water, and not only because Obama never said that he was against prosecutions.

It will be hard for anyone to convince me that with people losing their jobs and homes right and left, that prosecuting Bush Co. for war crimes was THE issue that caused them to contact the President. Maybe in two years, but no way in hell is that Issue #1 for the majority of the country right now.

[mkultra]

147. yes, mass bitching FTW. lol, good luck with that going forward

they where marginalized then and they remain so.

[EmilyAnne]

100. I am so happy, but I'm not surprised! THIS is the person I wanted in the White House. nt

[GeorgeGist]

113. A nice "I was wrong" from Obama WOULD be in order.

Did he say such?

[lunatica]

116. Some people are just never satisfied....

:nopity:

[cliffordu]

126. Wrong about what??

[Usrename]

134. Wrong about shielding torturers from prosecution.

These were civilians, they were never under any military orders to torture anyone. They could have easily just said no, like most of the professional interrogators did. They need to go to jail.

How do you square this travesty? Obama says they will not be prosecuted.

Over 25 people were tortured to death, and Obama says that he does not want anyone who actually committed any of these murders with their own hands to be in any fear at all that any justice will ever be meted out for these particular crimes. In a sense, he has given them amnesty.

I wonder if you would want justice if a member of your family was tortured to death.

Or would you think that we should all just move on in order to bring about political harmony? Really? Move on?

[cliffordu]

135. In the real world we really do have to change the things we can,

accept the things we cannot and be wise enough to know the difference.

It's a tough shit kind of world. I'll be eternally grateful if the authors of the memos are tried.

I fully expect NO ONE to serve one day of prison time.

Getting all this in front of the public and keeping it there might be the only justice there is.

I don't like it, but that's Corporation America.

And the President never said a word, NOT ONE FUCKING WORD about murder, which is a different crime altogether.

You should be ashamed of yourself for not knowing the difference.

Or, more correctly, for knowing it and sliming the Prez with the idea he would excuse murder.

[Usrename]

149. Excuse me!

I guess they were all just interrogated to death using enhanced techniques.

:eyes:

That can't be murder, can it?

edit to add>

Medical Investigations of Homicides of Prisoners of War: How Many Detainees Died of Homicide by Torture?


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_3

[cliffordu]

150. Murder is murder, the method is secondary.

[Usrename]

151. Murder is murder.

Medical Investigations of Homicides of Prisoners of War: How Many Detainees Died of Homicide by Torture?


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_3

[vaberella]

131. Where was he wrong? Give me a quote where O said that higher ups

could not be prosecuted if there was sufficient evidence?! Point me to where, please. I beg of you.

[yoyossarian]

118. I'm afraid this could be the end of an era...

How I'll miss the good ol' days...







Great gift tee shirts, mugs and other cool stuff featuring neat images such as these at
Laugh City!


President Evil Online has risen from the grave!

[lunatica]

120. Or the End of an Error...

The Bush Error

[yoyossarian]

127. Indeed! In fact,

I wrote a palindrome describing the entire turn-of-the-century Bush era:

Epic Error Recipe!

...which turned out to be totally right! Palindromes are MAGIC!


Great gift tee shirts, mugs, buttons and other cool stuff at


Laugh City!


President Evil Online has risen from the grave!

[quickesst]

130. Maybe some will admit to .....

..jumping the gun, which in this case should be jumping the CANNON. I'm sure the reasoning offered for sticking to their guns will be varied, interesting, and at times entertaining. Some will be convincing, but I will still disagree, as I have heard all of the convincing arguments, and they still do not outweigh the argument for supporting this president. Still, time will tell. Thanks.
quickesst

[vaberella]

132. They won't. n/t

[Uzybone]

133. K&R, The President does the right thing again

he ain't perfect, he never said he was, but he is gonna do his best to work for us.

[LittleBlue]

136. So he reversed his policy? I was right

to bitch and complain about his previously wrong policy of "looking forward".

That's assuming Holder actually decides to prosecute, which isn't even necessarily probable.

[cliffordu]

138. He didn't reverse anything. Try to keep up.

:eyes:

[and-justice-for-all]

139. Send those fuckers to PRISON!!!! nt