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In my opinion, President Obama has no choice but to set a military precedent off Africa Horn

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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:20 PM
Original message
In my opinion, President Obama has no choice but to set a military precedent off Africa Horn
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 05:31 PM by RollWithIt
First off, I believe that up until now President Obama's response to the recent hijacking drama 300 miles off the coast of Somalia has been correct. There is a lot that we aren't seeing right now. Essentially, what is happening right now mirrors how local and federal officials handle bank robberies. They surround the facility and negotiate with the hostage takers.

Unfortunately these individuals are in fact terrorist criminals. They are well organized. They are well financed. They operate a highly lucrative hostage taking business on the open seas of the coast of Africa. There is no government policing in such activities in their home country (Somalia). They have no qualms about who they hijack. This hijacking problem exists in both large commercial vessels and extremely small pleasure vessels. It simply is not safe to be on a boat, even hundreds of miles offshore, off the Horn of Africa (Somalia). If the problem is allowed to continue then the problem will only grow larger over time. More hijacking, more death and mayhem.

The main problem is how to deal with it.

NO ONE wants to send troops to Somalia. Personally, I think that is a mistake as the systemic breakdown of society in NE and Midcentral NE Africa will never be solved without invasion and a subsequent generational policing action. When I said no one, I meant no one, and the reality is that the African Union has to do something as a collective whole. No, the United States isn't going to provide an invasionary force, but southern African nations certainly should. Does everyone turn a blind eye to the madness and just hope it goes away? That doesn't mean that I believe we should have sent troops to Iraq. Completely different issue.

In the short-term, my conclusion is that the hijackers cannot simply be bought off and the problem will just go away. The French have learned this lesson. When you pay them off that means they have more boats, more guns, and more people willing to risk their lives to do it.

A Somalia male, in his twenties or thirties, on one of those hijacking boats, carrying weapons and willing to kill someone, and stands to make more money for his family in a few days then he would have made in YEARS or DECADES.

What do you think happens?

In the end, we simply cannot let these hostage takers transfer a US citizen from a hostage taking emergency raft to a large ship and be transferred to Somalia mainland. We also cannot just hand them money and expect them never to never do it again.

I believe President Obama must send heavy naval reinforcement into this region. That includes several Destroyers, Cruisers, and at least one aircraft carrier. For the most part, our navy only operates as an aircraft launching platform. Well, all of a sudden we actually need Ocean based policing again. We've spent billions and billions and billions on Destroyers, Cruisers, etc that really have no use other than sitting off a coast and lobbing in rounds. 99% of the time they sit around and twiddle their thumbs. We start parking some of this equipment off the Horn and make it clear that if you hijack a vehicle you will either die or spend the rest of your life in lockup that money those hijackers enjoyed over the last 10 years won't look so enticing.



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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. When BOXER gets to the scene and the Seal team gets there. Look out. nt
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Barbra Boxer?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. I suggest smerfs.
Surround 'em with smerfs.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. well, the lincoln could probably be there in a day
but the reagan is probably near japan and more than a week away.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. If I was a Naval Commander I'd do the following
Move USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20) from Italy to the combat region. Not doing much parked off the coast of Italy. Could be there in 2-3 days. Station it off the coast with supply ships for at least six months. It's a command cruiser with awesome technological capability. Particularly tracking.

A strong LCM amphibious assalt group, it's not identified as a ship or unit publicly but essentially you're talking about a hardcore Navy Seals unit. At least 100 guys backed up with another 1000 managers. The toughest of the tough.

There are 49 active US destroyers at the moment. I'm thinking next 12 months so a week or two doesn't really matter. Regardless of the outcome we have to have really strong naval presence in the region. Big guns. It is a deterent actually, historically strong naval presence prevents piracy. This is going back millenia kind of history.

As for the aircraft carrier, in my opinion, roll the USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77) out there. It will take 4-7 weeks to set up the command structue and roll out the security profile. The French will gladly contribute a strong force (they've spent hundreds of millions already on the problem).

And in the end, we shut down the piracy and we don't have to go to ground.






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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. the bush is in norfolk right now
its probably there for a reason. the Reagan is out of the question as well.

http://www.gonavy.jp/CVLocation.html
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Could roll the Bush out there in 90 days?
You think it's being repaired?
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. it just returned from sea trials
so i would imagine they are hammering out the kinks.
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. The pirates are becoming more brazen
If they are not stopped now, the situation will just get worse. This may have started over a protest over fishing rights, but now they see that it's pretty easy money.

And what happens if this starts going on in other parts of the world?
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Oh, For The Love of Pete's Sake
Turn off cable news which makes EVERYTHING into a crisis, everything except real crisises like health care, poverty, and our educational system.

Look, this is an INTERNATIONAL problem, not just a U.S. problem, and there are several ways to deal with it, such as an international blockade off of Somali shores, decoy ships, etc.

I'm so sick and tired of people getting all worked up into a frenzy because cable news told them to do so.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I don't watch Cable News, I read periodic journals
Don't put that label on this. If you have issue with my specific points, address them and I will respond.
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Don't you think we should address the man-eating shark problem first?
It's very very important.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. sorry, i dont have a TV
and im ready for some pirate attack.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
39. I don't give a fuck about the M$M. This was an American flagged ship with an American Captain
and crew. If the pirates THOUGHT there would be any kind of retribution for hijacking a US flagged ship, their actions shirley didn't give any evidence of worry. Two centuries have passed since the last time a ship of American registry, carrying American passengers or crew was hijacked. I think there might have been a reason for that.

Now they know that they can add ships of American registry to their list of hijackable ships, simply because they know we'll do nothing more than watch at a distance while an American Citizen (most likely more next time) languishes in their hospitality.

I fully expect it to happen again, this hijacking of US flagged ships, and I fully expect the response to be more of the same... "Let's watch and see what the pirates do, and then formulate a plan, and if the plan fails, well we should have a backup plan so let's put our original plan on hold until a contingency can be formulated and focus group tested. Then let's go KICK SOME PIRATE ASS. Wait, that wouldn't be prudent. Let's go keep our eyes on some pirates! We just can't go being rude and angry because some poor poor alleged pirates hijacked a ship carrying our country's flag and it's citizens. We're sure they have their reasons. Maybe there is common ground between us. I'm sure the Captain of an American flagged vessel won't mind enjoying their hospitality for a few more days at sea while we explore our differences." I expect no more passioned response to the taking of Americans as hostages on the high seas than that. Precedent has been set.

An American Citizen is being held hostage on the high seas by cowardly pirates. He is being held hostage after his American flagged ship was attacked by cowards who are not afraid of retribution coming from the US government in response to their cowardly acts. The United States government has proven that some lightly armed, poorly fed pirates are perfectly capable of holding it's citizens hostage on the high seas, and that it will see no urgency in bringing a quick and decisive end to the situation. His being taken hostage will be held up as being akin to David taking on Goliath. Look for more Davids in the future.

Now some of us DU'ers are being called war-mongers because we do not seek "common ground" with cowardly pirates. I don't advocate war with Somalis over this problem. I don't want any innocent land-lubber killed because a cowardly pirate hid in their neighborhood and a cruise missile destroyed it. Deal with this problem at sea. Deal with simply and effectively. Kill pirates. Kill them at sea. The pirates have already proven time and again that taking a life isn't as important to them than achieving their short-sighted goal. They should be given a taste of their own medicine and be shown that ours is a long-term goal, that of ridding the seas and oceans of piracy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. Over react much? Your post is idiotic as it is childish.
The billions of dollars invested for the US Navy is not what is going to stop a ragtag outfit of "pirates". Simple police efforts would suffice for what is going on. Also, why just Somalia. Piracy happens all over the world, even off the US.
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. Pff.

"In the end, we simply cannot let these hostage takers transfer a US citizen from a hostage taking emergency raft to a large ship and be transferred to Somalia mainland. We also cannot just hand them money and expect them never to never do it again."

Given that's probably the safest route for the guy to get home to his family, I bet you wouldn't think so if it were your ass on the line.

"I believe President Obama must send heavy naval reinforcement into this region. That includes several Destroyers, Cruisers, and at least one aircraft carrier. For the most part, our navy only operates as an aircraft launching platform. Well, all of a sudden we actually need Ocean based policing again. We've spent billions and billions and billions on Destroyers, Cruisers, etc that really have no use other than sitting off a coast and lobbing in rounds. 99% of the time they sit around and twiddle their thumbs. We start parking some of this equipment off the Horn and make it clear that if you hijack a vehicle you will either die or spend the rest of your life in lockup that money those hijackers enjoyed over the last 10 years won't look so enticing."

Plan on enlisting, Rambo?
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. US Army, 101st Airborne, 4 years, Honorable Discharge
Also a proud Democrat. Man, this forum is fucked up sometimes.
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Bionic commando, 541st stormtrooper battalion, B-wing squadron.
"Man, this forum is fucked up sometimes."

You mean because we don't act irrationally over tabloid stories?

What should Obama do about Bat Boy? I'm very concerned.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. No
Because you don't know ANYTHING about the US Military. You don't really know anything about World Affairs besides some half baked articles. You don't go to a library to read periodicals. You've probably never held a gun while talking to a person and been worried about his family. Hoping you could help them. Then you go online and bash someone who tries to explain REAL LIFE to you. The ignorance is amazing, kind of bums me out because if you and I sat down in a coffee house we'd agree on 90% of everything.

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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Please ignore
don't let that get to you, an interesting perspective all the same.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
35. Screwed up there, didn't you?
Your little snarky attempt to salvage didn't work, just so you know. We all saw you being an asshole with the "Rambo" comment, and we all saw you get it stuffed right back into your snivelly little teeth.

How embarrassing.

:hi:
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
40. I love it when a twit asks a Vet with an Opinion if he/she's going to enlist
and ends the question with something like "Rambo".

You were rude and insulting to a Veteran who holds a different view than you do. You ridiculed a Veteran who sacrificed warmth, good food, and family, for what you probably think is a fucked up notion: He wanted to serve his country.

As a one of RWI's fellow Veterans, I think you're a piece of shit for doing that.
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Oh well.
He still ain't gonna reenlist, is he?
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. He's Airborne. He doesn't need a Sailor to defend him. I suppose that if he wanted to reenlist,
he would be welcomed by all. I also suppose that based on his previous contribution to the cause, they'd be better off for having him. That's for him to say though.

He doesn't need to reenlist. He's already served. Honorably.
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. It doesn't matter.
Veteran status isn't a blank check for bullshit.

Assuming he's even telling the truth.
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Top Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Thanks for your service and es this forum is fucked up sometimes
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. It sure is.
But I suspect we have very different reasons for coming to that conclusion.

Regards
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. "no choice" - BWAHAAHAHAAHAAAA!!!! Thank fucking gawd Obama is smarter than you.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I know he is, I just want us to be successful
I'm allowed to offer a serious opinion. I think President Obama respects that too. Actually, I know he does. You however, don't seem to. Sad really.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. No, you just wanna blow people up, like most keyboard kommandos.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I "just want to blow people up"
Where in anything I typed have I said I just wanted to "blow people up." There is a long held successful dogma of "strength is deterrence" within the US Navy. You put a big ship with a big gun in the middle of a bunch of pirates they suddenly stop murdering and stealing. Not a new concept.

And btw, since you're such a smart ass, can you tell me how many people have been MURDERED & RAPED IN SOMALIA OVER THE LAST DECADE? And I didn't even call for a US invasion, I just said the AU had to take responsibility. See, that's LOGIC. Not Assholery.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Isn't that usually the first thing that comes to mind when dealing with
certain parts of the world?

:shrug:

Regards
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. :) It makes one wonder if those certain parts of the world have something in common, eh?
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Indeed. ;) Hmmm. I wonder what that may be?
Anyone? Bueller?

Regards
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. i know i know
lawlessness.


The result of which will always be death if they try to take Americans hostage. I have zero sympathy for them. They cast their own die.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. I think your ideas are pretty good
I don't know what the current laws are, but the penalty should be pretty stiff in terms of doing what these people are doing. The death penalty or life in prison would be a good start (though personally I waiver back and forth on the death penalty). The problem with giving people life in prison is that it would have to be in a neutural country (like The Netherlands) so they simply wouldn't be pardoned 5 minutes after they were sentenced.

The other problem is the cost of patroling the high seas is expensive. The British once did this and it cost a pretty penny.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. I think Obama and co are pretty much doing this already.
They are sending in bigger ships to intimidate the pirates. Several times I heard on CNN yesterday that the Navy does not want the pirates to get into an actual boat (from the other pirates in the area) and make landfall in Somalia. I doubt they would actually try to do anything as the French tried it not too recently and one hostage died. There may be negotiations while still having a threatening presence of big ships there.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. So we should allow the pirate
freedom to keep killing innocent people without no jurisdiction.

Nice!!!

Welcome to DU by the way, enjoy your stay while at it....

:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. This incident happened 350 miles out
....far into international waters.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Deleted message
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. Every crisis is an opportunity....
shock and awe!!! I can't wait!


Somalia: Another CIA-Backed Coup Blows Up
by Mike Whitney
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/42/Somalia_Another_CIAbacked_coup_blows_up.html

Up until a month ago, no one in the Bush administration showed the least bit of interest in the incidents of piracy off the coast of Somalia. Now that's all changed and there's talk of sending in the Navy to patrol the waters off the Horn of Africa and clean up the pirates hideouts. Why the sudden about-face? Could it have something to do with the fact that the Ethiopian army is planning to withdrawal all of its troops from Mogadishu by the end of the year, thus, ending the failed two year US-backed occupation of Somalia?
The United States has lost the ground war in Somalia, but that doesn't mean its geopolitical objectives have changed one iota. The US intends to stay in the region for years to come and use its naval power to control the critical shipping lanes from the Gulf of Aden. The growing strength of the Somali national resistance is a set-back, but it doesn't change the basic game-plan. The pirates are actually a blessing in disguise. They provide an excuse for the administration to beef up it's military presence and put down roots. Every crisis is an opportunity.


America's interests in Somalia:
Four major U.S. oil companies are sitting on a prospective fortune in exclusive concessions
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/Somalia_US_OilCorp_Fortune.html

The Long and Hidden History of the U.S in Somalia
by Stephen Zunes
AlterNet, January 21, 2002
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/Hx_US_Somalia.html


Somalia: Hidden Catastrophe, Hidden Agenda
by Media Lens
www.dissidentvoice.org/, May 14th, 2008
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/Somalia_Hidden_Agenda.html

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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
32. I think the solution of "heavy naval reinforcement" is bigger than the problem. I think
it would be infinitely simpler, and infinitely cheaper, to waive the restrictions that forbid shipping companies from arming merchant ships. I'd be willing to bet shipping companies would me more than willing to pay to equip their vessels with a few of these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykb3Is3Dsmw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVjn7aj9pxI&feature=related

and hire personnel to man them. What do you think one of these things would do to one of those pirate motorboats?

They could simply be leased for use on merchant vessels for an indefinite period of time—namely, for the duration of the piracy crisis—after which the restrictions on arming the ships would be reinstated and the weapons would simply be returned to wherever they came from.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
36. Some of your presumptions are wrong, eg, "breakdown of society... be solved without invasion"
Actually, the breakdown of government (not necessarily society) will be solved mostly be leaving them alone and letting the African Union support negotiations toward a new order. In fact, the problem in Somalia can be described as the triumph of "society" over "government" -- society in the form of indigenous forms of order, such as the clan, over an artificially imposed post colonial government. This is the problem in many parts of Africa.

Over the last decade and a half, Somalia has been slowly rebuilding governing structures from the "society" level up. African countries that have done that have been very successful, the most now prominent example being Botswana, which fortunately is being featured for western audiences in the series, "Ladies No. 1 Detective Agency." In many ways Botswana is a Somalia that solved it's clan problems 150 years ago.

Colonial government structures had little connection to Africa society. You can read a detailed explanation of why in the introduction to Goran Hyden's book, "Beyond Ujaama in Tanzania," but the basic idea is that the existing structures don't link up to national government in any meaninful way, as our local political parties, civic organizations, police forces, town councils, etc., link up with state and local government.

Somalia spent a decade slowly negotiating a new government order (the Islamic Courts Movement), but Bush didn't like it and encouraged Ethiopia to invade and depose it, leading Somalia back to chaos and anarchy.

Invasion would be the worst thing to solve the problem of breakdown in government in the region.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Deleted message
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cwcwmack Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
46. thank you...
well said, well thought out.

And fuck all that have flamed you.
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