Is Barack Obama an atheist?

[The Night Owl]

Christopher Hitchens seems to think so...

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bu1pUk5tyQ

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paBhBbyaj9o

[valerief]

1. I imagine he is, but it doesn't matter, so long as he doesn't impose

his theism or atheism on us.

[Political Heretic]

98. Why would you imagine he is?

Given his active participation in organized religion and his many, passionate references to his own faith?

[cbc5g]

2. I think so

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. I hope so.

[rationalcalgarian]

102. Let's all hope so

The current situation is too important and urgent. Perhaps another time, when all is well and happy, we can indulge in fantasies and delusions, but for the time being a reasonable rational mind at the helm is what's needed.

[CreekDog]

111. I don't know why you hope so because that would make him a rather flagrant liar

:eyes:

[rationalcalgarian]

132. To a degree...

...but only insofar as he is maintaining a long tradition in politics by pretending to be "faithful". Anyone who has ever run for public office knows that the religious dog and pony show has to be played out to placate the rubes during the campaign. What I mean by "I hope so" is that in a time of crisis I would want a leader who can grasp the situation and deal with it instead of falling to his knees in the Oval Office and wasting precious time praying or telling people whose city has just been flooded to "pray harder".
I also hope he is an atheist so the agendae of the Dominionists and End-Timers that infested the White House during the Bush years will be tossed into the trash and some realistic solutions for the problems facing us developed without concern for whose invisible sky daddy might be offended. As an atheist, he will not see violent, damaging weather as a manifestation of some god's displeasure with human sexual practices and will, instead, take steps to improve emergency services and warning systems. Nor will an atheist president ignore or dismiss scientific discoveries because they conflict with his belief system, one that originated 2000 to 6000 years ago in a desert on the other side of the world when the Earth was flat and at the center of the universe and men walked with dinosuars and insects had four legs and the way to deal with impudent children was to kill them. An atheist president would know better.
That's all I meant by agreeing with the first poster's "I hope so". As for being a liar, show me a politician that isn't. Besides, it's only religion. I think that's pretty minor and when compared to the lies that spewed out of the Bush administration for eight years, practically invisible.

But I do get your point.

[burning rain]

151. My favorite religion-&-politics story...

-- and it's true -- concerns Dwight Eisenhower. When he was getting into presidential politics, he went to Billy Graham and said that although he'd never cared about religion, he didn't think Americans would follow someone who wasn't a member of a church. So personally irreligious was Ike that Graham was reduced to asking about his family's church affiliation, so as to have some ground to work on. Ike replied that his parents had been River Brethren. Graham pondered, then decided they were close enough to Presbyterian, and recommended two Presbyterian churches in the DC area whose pastors favored the GOP.

Like Bertrand Russell, I have a hard time believing that many pols really believe the baloney. The sincere ones (e.g. Palin) tend to be among the worst.

[MrMickeysMom]

4. Honest to God, Christopher can't make up his mind

Is he on the right, or left of the far right? He thinks he knows the true America, based on who was "here first" but I think he's an assuming large ass who needs lots and lots of attention.

[Danger Mouse]

5. No, he's a Muslin.

[tridim]

33. LOL!

:rofl:

[skeewee08]

U mean Moozlin:-)

[progressoid]

123. Either way, he's going to burn in hell, but not after he's destroyed America!! Aieeee!!!

I read it in an email so it must be true.

[spanone]

6. is hitchens a human?

[FrenchieCat]

7. Is Christopher Hitchens an alcoholic?

I think so!

[Chan790]

10. Some things are simply facts.

As such, they require little or no thought. Hitchens, like most of my family, has never met a bottle of hooch that didn't have his name on it. It'd be sad if he wasn't such a boor.

[usregimechange]

8. Of course, he believes religion ought to inform reason and not annihilate it

[Solomon]

58. Very well said.

:thumbsup: That's a great way of putting it.

[camera obscura]

9. With no proof. That's just as stupid as people who think he's a Muslim with no proof.

[BlooInBloo]

17. +1

[cbc5g]

96. -1

[damonm]

110. +googolplex - so there!

:P

[liberalmuse]

11. I think he is, but...

he seems to respect religion and be a spiritual or at least more enlightened person than the average Joe, who perhaps enjoys the community of church.

On edit: I'm atheist and likely projecting. If I were Catholic, perhaps I'd think he was Catholic.

[The Night Owl]

16. Like you, I am excited by the prospect of an atheist president but...

...all things considered I suspect that Barack Obama is, like most believers these days, someone who identifies as a believer but who is closer to being an agnostic... basically someone full of doubt about religious claims... which is a good thing.

[Political Heretic]

100. Are you people fucking high?

How about you think what he SAYS about himself. When he says he is a Christian, is a regular church attender, speaks and writes (read his books?) about his own spiritual walk with god - and does so very passionately...

...then we've got people who are still like "I think he's an atheist" just because you like the guy? Wow, talk about the hidden assumptions in that statement.

[CreekDog]

112. not to mention it would make him a liar

:eyes:

[mopinko]

12. he says that he was, but

he isn't now. it's in his book.

[Hutzpa]

13. Is Christopher Hitchens an asshole(?)

:shrug:

[Colobo]

14. I hope he actually is.

[Robeson]

15. Works for me.

[fadedrose]

18. He is so well educated that he'd have to be an athiest...

When I used to go to church and was having problems believing some of the Gospel stories, I talked to the minister about it.

He told me that he didn't believe them either, in fact, none of the graduating ministers where he attended school believed them either, but in order to be hired by a rich church, they had to more or less act like they believed everything to get a "good" church.

The more I studied church and bible origins the less I believed. But I also believe it is not up to me to try to destroy someone else's faith.

Believe their historical accuracy or not, I think a person could do worse than follow the advice of Jesus. I like to think that President Obama feels the same way.

[BlooInBloo]

20. LOL!

[The Night Owl]

22. I suppose one can do much worse than to follow the advice of Mr. O'Nazereth but...

...many of his teachings are madness. Even the devout C.S. Lewis thought so.

[fadedrose]

25. C. S. Lewis used to be my hero

I loved him because we both smoked. I think they are rewriting his bio to hide that fact...

[fadedrose]

26. I should have said "follow SOME of this teachings."

I agree with you. But according to the Jesus Seminar, a lot of the madness was added later.

[napoleon_in_rags]

37. I disagree with your premise.

a) You have to believe the president is lying rather than presenting himself at face value: He says he's a Christian.
b) You have to believe that all educated people are atheists, which just isn't true. You can bet he's not a fundamentalist, doesn't literally believe in things that go against science. But to hold a reverence for spiritual matters or have a heart felt connection with something bigger than himself, whatever he calls it, doesn't make him an uneducated fool. And that's what I think he has, a belief in something bigger than himself that doesn't need subsidizing through the federal government, doesn't need aid imposing itself on people, it just stands on its own. And I don't think that's foolish at all.

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Except

they are subsidizing religion throught the federal gov, they are imposing theology on others. Faith Based office is working out how they can legaly discriminate while still taking that fed money. Obama himself says he opposes equality for all minorities because of his religion. So I have to disagee with your assesment. If he really didn't subsidize, and really did not impose his faith on my house, that would be great. But it is simply not true. According to him, it is not true. He says his faith is the whole of why he opposes equal rights for my house, and that says it all.

[napoleon_in_rags]

134. But there's a difference between his personal feelings and his legislation.

I think Obama will do what he can to separate church and state, including ceasing the state interference in religious practice, such as state defined marriage, and let religious (and secular) groups practice freely as the constitution allows. To be frank, I basically think this guy is humble: he believes what he believes, but he doesn't have the arrogance to stand up and speak on behalf of God through legislation or anything else, and that's all I care about.

[Phoonzang]

48. You don't have to be an atheist to not believe all that stuff.

As an agnostic I could choose (though I don't) to see atheists the same way I see theists. They both are sure that a deity, the supernatural, whatever does or doesn't exist. Who are humans, that they could be so utterly sure about the nature of the universe.

[PassingFair]

84. An erroneous definition, at best.

Atheists and Agnostics DO NOT BELIEVE IN "A DEITY".

Not the same thing as being "sure that a deity, the supernatural, whatever, does or doesn't exist."


Agnostics and atheists are actually indistinguishable from each other, IN FACT,
the rest is mere semantics.

[Alcibiades]

52. They all do that

The Bible scholarship studied in the seminaries by the various reverends, pastors and fathers, at least the Protestant ones, shows rather irrefutably that there is not a single author of the Bible, traces the historical development of the books of the Bible, and shows that the doctrine we have today is not the result of godly inspiration handing down a universally true doctrine, but is rather the result of a process of historical development. The various anecdotes of the Bible are well-known by biblical scholars to be just that--sometimes fables and oral tradition passed along until they were finally written down (and then edited and reedited), and sometimes allegories and fantasies made up out of whole cloth.

And then they have to go to their congregations every Sunday and pretend it is all true in every detail, because that's what the common folk believe, and that's what they have to believe for them to believe any of it.

[cali]

90. ridiculous. William Sloan Coffin, Thomas Merton and scores of others

were well educated and highly intelligent believers.

[Political Heretic]

101. Have you read his books? So he's just a pandering liar then?

His passionate language about god and his own faith is just bullshit then... ?

Do you know how totally offended you'd be if Obama publicly identified himself as an atheist and then a bunch of people on DU were like "I think he's really a Christian?"

[AlCzervik]

19. don't know and i don't care.

[Cha]

21. Best answer..my guess, though, is

that he's not but that's his biz.

[Clio the Leo]

24. Cha, I love ya but it's NOT his business....

... because he chose to make it OUR business by writing about his Christianity extensively in his book.

Am I gonna have to call every last one of you all and read the whole thing to you over the phone! 'Cause I'll do it! lol :)

[Cha]

106. I guess if you look at it that way, Clio,

and I know you are.. I was thinking more in terms of separation of Church and State.

Prez Obama likes to let it all hang out, though, and that's one reason I love him so much.

I'm so looking forward to his gig on Leno tonight.

[Clio the Leo]

23. "we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of Americans"

Blows my mind how many of us haven't read the book.

Ok, so if you cant bring the Mohamed to the mountain......

More fundamentally, the discomfort of some progressives with any hint of religiosity has often inhibited us from effectively addressing issues in moral terms. Some of the problem is rhetorical: Scrub language of all religious content and we forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice. Imagine Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address without reference to "the judgments of the Lord," or King's "I Have a Dream" speech without reference to "all of God's children." Their summoning of a higher truth helped inspire what had seemed impossible and move the nation to embrace a common destiny. Of course organized religion doesn't have a monopoly on virtue, and one not need be religious to make moral claims or appeal to a common good. But we should not avoid making such claims or appeals—or abandon any reference to our rich religious traditions—in order to avoid giving offense.

Our failure as progressives to tap into the moral underpinnings of the nation is not just rhetorical, though. Our fear of getting "preachy" may also lead us to discount the role that values and culture play in addressing some of our most urgent social problems. After all, the problems of poverty and racism, the uninsured and the unemployed, are not simply technical problems in search of the perfect 10-point plan. They are also rooted in societal indifference and individual callousness—the desire among those at the top of the social ladder to maintain their wealth and status whatever the cost, as well as the despair and self-destructiveness among those at the bottom.

I am not suggesting that every progressive suddenly latch on to religious terminology. I am suggesting that perhaps if we progressives shed some of our own biases, we might recognize the values that both religious and secular people share when it comes to the moral and material direction of our country. We need to take faith seriously not simply to block the religious right but to engage all persons of faith in the larger project of American renewal. Some of this is already beginning to happen. Megachurch pastors like Rick Warren and T. D. Jakes are wielding their enormous influence to confront AIDS, Third World debt relief, and the genocide in Darfur. Self-described "progressive evangelicals" like Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo are lifting up the biblical injunction to help the poor as a means of mobilizing Christians against budget cuts to social programs and growing inequality. And across the country, individual churches like my own are sponsoring day-care programs, building senior centers, and helping ex-offenders reclaim their lives.

But to build on these still tentative partnerships between the religious and secular worlds, more work will need to be done. The first and most difficult step for some evangelical Christians is to acknowledge the critical role that the establishment clause has played not only in the development of our democracy but also in the robustness of our religious practice. Not only has America avoided the sorts of religious strife that plague the globe, but religious institutions have continued to thrive—a phenomenon that some observers attribute directly to the absence of a state-sponsored church.

~ Barack H Obama, "The Audacity of Hope"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

I submit that the way we simply let the right have faith voters by default is largely responsible for our losses in the '00 and '04 elections. The Democratic party is the one that best embodies the tennants of Christianity (and I'm singeling out Christians because there are more of us than anyone else.) We have failed our own party by allowing the GOP to dance away with them.

[damonm]

29. Best book I ever saw on that subject...

Was God's Politics:Why the Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get it

He goes on to excoriate the Right for hijacking Christianity, and the Left for letting them, and he seems to think the Left is actually closer to what Christ taught.

[Clio the Leo]

30. Oh without question.

If I felt otherwise, I'd be posting in Freeptopia right now. :)

And the first century Christians were a bunch of commie socialists, but that's a matter for another time. lol

[mitchum]

34. But that line is further testimony to Obama's skill as a writer...

"we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of Americans"
It could be an acknowledgement that it is crucial to remember the power of superstition. Not that the superstition is based on anything real. If you want to get anywhere with children, you certainly don't talk smack about Santa Claus.

[Clio the Leo]

36. lol, oh, well my Church of Christ preacher father will tell you that...

... he set me straight at about age 2 when it came to Santa.

Santa Clause ... and here's a shocker .... CHRISTMAS ... have nothing to do with Christianity.

Jesus is NOT the reason for the season. ;)

ETA: In reareading your post I'm realizing I misunderstood you. But I like what I wrote, so I'ma leave it. lol

[pipi_k]

59. This is why their manufactured war on people

who "make war on Christmas" is so hilarious.

Or pathetic.

Or frustrating.

depending on various factors...


Because they're getting their panties all in a twist about defending a holiday that really has nothing to do with Christianity.



PS...

I'm a mixed Atheist/Agnostic, and for a while I would feel guilty "celebrating" Christmas, but now that I see it through different eyes (The Season of Light) I don't feel so much like a hypocrite anymore... :)

[elleng]

27. Who cares.

Cheney, on the other hand . . .

[Lilith Velkor]

28. Barack Obama is a Christian.

Christopher Hitchens is a drunken fool.

[LittleBlue]

31. I read his earlier book, and from my reading he seems to have used religion

as a platform to begin on the political scene. I really don't think he believes any of it- it's just a way for him to springboard into politics while playing a part in the community.

But I'm an atheist, so this might be biased.

[AllentownJake]

66. That would make him a horrible person

and no better than Bush in that regards...so I hope you are wrong.

[Beetwasher]

74. No, It Would Make Him A Pragmatist

Who would he be hurting by going through the motions of religion so he can get elected and do good things (if in fact this were the case?)

[AllentownJake]

75. I think dishonesty about something as big as your faith or lack of faith

is appalling. Barack Obama says he is a Christian and takes Communion. I'm not going to doubt that he is one.

[The Night Owl]

78. Would you say that German Jews who hid their faith...

...from the SS were wrong to do so? I hope not.

[AllentownJake]

82. Please explain to me when in Barack's life

the question of him being a Christian or not would result in him being sent to a concentration camp, tortured and killed.

[The Night Owl]

91. I'm just trying to show you that deception isn't necessarily wrong and in some cases...

...it's noble.

[AllentownJake]

93. I'd have died

one way or another in that situation I'd be dead...that's just me though. If someone wants to kill me for what I believe, than in my belief, its time for me to go.

Not judging those who don't die.

Besides I think Barack has accounted for the risk of dying for his beliefs in the current occupation he's chosen given the track record for liberals who try to change things.

[Beetwasher]

80. Pffft! He's A Politician, It's WAY More Appalling That In Order To Be Elected In This Country

You MUST be a believer.

I don't doubt he's a xtian either, but I couldn't give a shit if he's pretending. He's not hurting anyone if he is, in fact, just the opposite. If it helped him get elected so he can do good things, I'm all for his "dishonesty" about his religiosity.

The fact that you MUST be a believer in order to be elected to public office in this country is damn shame and it's a hell of a lot more appalling than someone being dishonest about their religion in order to be elected.

[AllentownJake]

83. Sorry you hate the American voting public

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

85. LOL! Hate? Nahh, People Who Vote Based On Religion Are Just Stupid And Childish

I feel sorry for people who are so insecure that they need an invisible sky daddy to threaten them w/ punishment so they do the right thing. But hate them? It's the idiotic believers who feel threatened by atheists who do the hating.

Next!

[AllentownJake]

86. I'm not at all afraid of Atheist

I could care less what you personally believe. I just find it funny how alot of atheist are as nasty and high and mighty about their personal beliefs as the Christians they profess are so terrible and nasty and wrong.

Proving my inate belief. People are People.

BTW your little rant about the invisible sky daddy...makes you one of those atheist.

[Beetwasher]

87. I Didn't Say YOU Were, Einstein

But you sure are defensive! The hallmark of someone who feels threatened.

"BTW your little rant about the invisible sky daddy...makes you one of those atheist."

Why don't you pray for me? :rofl:

[AllentownJake]

92. Ad Hoc attack against an entire group over some of its members

If someone says they follow a religion, than I don't know why Atheist feel the need to justify their own beliefs by grabbing onto that popular figure as a secret Atheist. It's kind of disturbing.

[Beetwasher]

95. Christopher Hitchens Is A Douchebag

And I never said Obama was a secret atheist or supported his argument. I said I believe Obama about his religion but I don't give a shit if he's feigning it either, it makes no difference to me and it would not be harmful in any way if he was.

You're the jeenyus who thinks he would be such a horrible person if he's feigning his religion. It think that's a stupid, ad hoc, knee-jerk, immature position.

Judgemental a bit are we? What was it Jesus said about casting stones?

[AllentownJake]

99. Good Question.

I'm sorry if you are lying about your belief in a God, feigning membership in a Religous group to the point of taking their most sacred sacrements, than yes you are a horrible person. I would never take in the sacrements of another religion which is only open to adherents of that faith to get my political point accross.

I never read Jesus or his disciples giving creedence to the Roman Gods to get their point accross.

[Beetwasher]

104. Yes, Because It Is Oh So Serious And Holy!

How dare someone pretend! Why, they might be mocking you! :rofl:

"I never read Jesus or his disciples giving creedence to the Roman Gods to get their point accross."

Whatever the fuck that means. :shrug:

Oh, wait! Are you dissing the Roman Gods???!! Gasp! My, how disrespectful of you!

[AllentownJake]

107. It's called respect

If the pastor/priest/church leader asks that only believers take part in a sacrement than only believers should.

If someone is that disrespectful of another person's beliefs that they are willing to engage in a ceremony only meant for believers for political purposes than that is someone I would chose not to associate myself with.

[Beetwasher]

108. That's Your Perogative

My! How judgemental you are! Tsk tsk.

Now, if only there were some way to tell who all the fakers are! Then we could banish and shun them! Or perhaps you have another punishment in mind? Boilig oil? Crucifiction?

[AllentownJake]

114. No I just would rather vote for an out atheist than

someone pretending to be of my faith to score cheap political points. I expect a politian to be honest enough to tell me who he is and trust me to make my decision.

[Beetwasher]

118. Sure You Would

The atheist will get your vote every time, huh? How do I know your not lying? :rofl:

[AllentownJake]

120. Because my father was an atheist and I wrote his name

in everytime I didn't like either candidate...still do. My Dad got a vote for State rep this year.

[Beetwasher]

121. Well Then!

I stand corrected! :shrug:

My father was actually my mother...it's a long story.

[Hello_Kitty]

142. There are 7 states where it is illegal for an atheist to hold public office.

Which could conceivably mean that an atheist presidential candidate couldn't get on the ballot in them.

[LittleBlue]

143. Why would that make him a horrible person? Many people attend church

for the sense of community rather than religion.

Are you calling atheists who attend church out of respect for their grandmothers "horrible people"? Maybe he just doesn't want the stigma that us atheists experience on a daily basis. It's still (apparently) quite proper to mock atheists openly. You know how many times we get asked, "you don't believe in God/heaven???" accompanied by an incredulous look, as if we're madmen?

[cbc5g]

97. +1 I've figured that too and there's nothing wrong with that

The ends justify the means

[LittleBlue]

144. Precisely. If it saves a few hundred thousand in Iraq

more power to him. He's doing what they call the "Lord's work" anyway, so why should they complain?

[Bryn]

32. Einstein: Bible Is 'Primitive, Pretty Childish'

at least Obama isn't 'primitive, childish' :)

Einstein said that "the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."


"For me," he added, "the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."


In later life, he expressed a sense of wonder at the universe and its mysteries — what he called a "cosmic religious feeling" — and famously said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

But, he also said: "I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws."

Einstein believed that "there is some kind of intelligence working its way through nature. But it is certainly not a conventional Christian or Judaic religious view."

Einstein's most famous legacy is the special theory of relativity, which makes the point that a large amount of energy could be released from a tiny amount of matter, as expressed in the equation E=MC2 (energy equals mass times the speed of light squared).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355323,00.html

This is what I agree with...what Einstein says.

[DesertRat]

35. Obama says he's Christian

Why would he lie?

[mitchum]

38. Occupational hazard?

[last_texas_dem]

39. For the same reason that any American desiring a successful political career would.

Note: I'm not saying Obama in particular *is* an atheist. But I do think that, taking into consideration the levels of education, socioeconomic status, etc., of elected officials, there is a fair chance that many professing to be religious are actually atheist or agnostic.

[DesertRat]

42. I prefer to take him at his word. n/t

[Juche]

41. He also said he supported single payer healthcare and gay marriage

There are videos and articles showing him supporting these things before he ran for president.

He also used pot in college, but publically says he is opposed to decriminalization.



He lies because he is a politician. A good one, but still a politician. Some things are politically damaging, even if they aren't true.

[dascientist]

45. to get elected

[Juche]

40. Probably, as a guess

Maybe an agnostic. Obama seems too intellectually curious to be a firm believer in western judeo christian faith since intellectual curiousity will lead to ideas that attack that belief system.

[Politicalboi]

43. I've thought about him

Not being so religious. I thought it was too good to be true if it is.

[dascientist]

44. To me he's humanist/atheist, and that is positive to me, it's to bad that.....

he has to hide the fact in order to be accepted into the position he is in, in government.

[DesertRat]

60. If you read Audacity of Hope he details his Christian faith

So you must also believe that he's a calculated liar.

[dascientist]

135. yes, I do see him having that ability to get what matters done

[Jennicut]

46. Should it matter? I am a Christian and really don't care either way.

Unfortunately to get elected most politicians feel they have to really be out there with their religion but to me its a private thing. I guess when you become President the American public really feels like they own you and need to know EVERYTHING.

[Mass]

47. Obama says he is Christian and believer. Why not take him at his word?

Otherwise, why are we going after the birthers who say he is a Muslim (or a muslin)?

Sorry, I believe him when he says and writes he is a Christian (and I would not mind if Hitchens was right, but I do not think he has any reason to believe so, except his wide imagination).

[AllentownJake]

65. Because there is an atheist coalition on here

That as soon as someone mentions the word faith acts as bad as evangelicals act when someone mentions the word atheist.

[Bobbie Jo]

77. Bingo.

Nailed it.

[Beetwasher]

113. Excuse Me! That's "Cabal" NOT Coalition!

Get it right! :rofl:

And for the record we ARE plotting against you and we all have rubber chickens.

(Oh shit! I forgot, I wasn't supposed to say anything about the chickens! Sorry fellow cabalists!)

[AllentownJake]

115. Seriously man,

You got a fight going with me on one post here do you have to make it two?

Obsess much

[Beetwasher]

119. Just Having Fun!

Lighten up Chester! This ain't fighting!

Aren't you curious about the Rubber Chicken(TM)?

[Goblinmonger]

136. Yawn

The spouting of right wing talking points in regard to atheists gets a little boring on DU after a while.

[cherish44]

49. I don't think a person who was openly atheist could be elected in this country

At least not as president anyway...So if he is, he's keeping it under wraps.

[leftofthedial]

50. well he is a communist

that much we know for sure

and aren't all communists godless?

[Marrah_G]

51. people are way to obsessed with his religion or lack there of.

I don't care if he believes in Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Freya or the giant spagetti monster, just so long as he does a good job governing.

[treestar]

53. No, he's a Christian

Why undermine him by casting doubt on that? He got past the idea he's a Muslin, gee, let's create a new one.

[JamesA1102]

54. Hitchens is drunk half the time and hung over the other half

But he is a right wing shill all of the time.

[southpaw]

67. No

Dismissing Hitchens as a drunk is facile. It has nothing to do with the arguments he makes.

William Faulkner was a heavy drinker. Does that mean his writing should be seen as the incoherent babbling of a drunk?


Neither are Hitchens' positions consistently 'right wing.' In fact, he is primarily right-leaning only as regards the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hitchens sees terrorism as being rooted in apocalyptic religion and, therefore, not open to reason.

I differ from Hitchens far more than I agree with him, but I do not write him off nor mis characterize him for the sake of convenience.

[WeDidIt]

55. Barack Obama is an atheist, but only when Christopher Hitchens is sober.

which is to say, Barack Obama is not an atheist.

[Lars39]

56. I think he is....he just takes the best out of the religion he has chosen/married into...

using it as a vehicle for good works. Do I view this as hypocritical....no. You work with what gives you the most traction. :)

[pipi_k]

61. I don't either

See it as hypocritical, I mean.


Taking the best from something and using it to help others is way better than taking the worst of something and using it to hurt others.


:)

[indimuse]

62. omg..

bored much??

[southpaw]

63. I've long suspected as much

No surprise that he has to play the xtian game here in gawd-blessed America, but he strikes me as a non-believer.

[AllentownJake]

64. Sorry Atheist

He's one of us evil Christians. Stop questioning his faith. It's disgusting.

[harun]

68. It is something only God and Obama can know for sure.

[southpaw]

69. So only Obama knows

[Kajsa]

70. No,

he's Christian, along the lines of Christian Humanism.

[WI_DEM]

71. how many atheists go to church?

[The Night Owl]

72. I'm guessing that thousands of atheists who are married to believers attend churches. {EOM}

[kwassa]

76. I think you are guessing very wrong

There are many where only one half of the couple attends church, in my experience.

[AllentownJake]

73. or get have their children go under baptism?

or take communion?

[WI_DEM]

103. But Obama himself has been a member of a church

I don't know why people want to make it out as if Obama were an atheist. He hasn't given any indication of that. He also doesn't flaunt his Christianity. Which is a good thing.

[AllentownJake]

116. Because some on here find it hard to respect an intelligent man

who has come to a different conclusion on the God thing than themselves.

[kwassa]

79. "Obama Raises Profile Of Prayer"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/09/AR2009030903043_pf.html

Obama Raises Profile Of Prayer
Experts Weigh In As His Events Often Include It

By Michelle Boorstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 10, 2009; A04

Prayer has become more common at presidential appearances under the Obama administration, including at nonreligious events such as stimulus rallies. The White House is acting in a deliberately inclusive, interfaith way that seems to limit opposition.

.............................................

People who helped plan public events for former presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton say they did not routinely organize prayers before non-religious events. Historians note that there is no clear record of prayers before presidential appearances, but they could not remember prayers being said as routinely as they are now.

The policy, first reported in U.S. News & World Report, appears to continue a new White House approach to religion: invite piety and spirituality at every opportunity, but with a new emphasis on interfaith participants and atheists. Obama mentioned "non-believers" in his inauguration speech and, even as he unveiled his faith-based office to religious conservatives at the National Prayer Breakfast, he noted that he did not consider faith-based social service programs inherently superior to secular ones.

[Arugula Latte]

81. I like to think he's an atheist.

He's an intelligent man. I can't imagine him taking literally the mythology about Jesus coming back from the dead and all that nonsense.

[cali]

88. I prefer to think he's not a liar

and the evidence is that he's a Christian. Atheists generally don't attend church for 20 years.

[mvd]

94. Good point

If he was an atheist, I don't mind. From my post, I'm closer to a new age spiritualist myself. But the evidence suggests he's a believer.

[Arugula Latte]

109. It wouldn't bother me if he lied about religion.

You have to profess belief in the invisible omnipotent string puller in order to seek high office in this irrational thought-embracing country of ours.

[cherokeeprogressive]

127. A person or candidate who will lie about SOMEthing will lie about ANYthing. n/t

[The Night Owl]

128. Bizzare reasoning. {EOM}

[cherokeeprogressive]

130. Liars are Liars. Period. No liar limits him/herself to lies about only certain things.

After the first lie gets the desired result, subsequent lies become easier and easier to rationalize.

Once a liar, always a liar. Liars lie.

My reply was to the notion that some lies are okay and others are not. Lies told to get elected are not okay in my book. Not even when they help get good men like Barack Obama elected to the presidency.

It doesn't bother me that you think my reasoning bizarre. If we agreed on everything, all the time, there would never be a reason to discuss.

[Beetwasher]

138. So, You've Never Told A Lie?

:shrug:

If you tell me you have, then you are admittedly a liar and therefore potentially lie about everything and can't be trusted. Period.

If you tell me you've never told a lie, I'll know you're lying because that's pretty much completely unbelievable. You are therefore completely untrustworthy.

I would say that pretty much means everyone on the planet falls under this category and we can never trust anyone ever again because there isn't a person alive who has never lied about something.

See how idiotic your position is?

[cherokeeprogressive]

146. Never said that. Nope. I did not ever say that.

I have told lies. I have told lies that hurt the people I love and lies that were intended to get me out of messes I myself created. I've told lies when I thought it might help me get ahead. That said, I can honestly say that I never told a lie I was proud of. At the moment, I cannot think of a lie I told that didn't come back to bite me in the ass sooner or later. The problem is that one lie begets another lie that begets another lie and sooner or later it's a snowball that's too big to avoid as it comes hurtling down the hill toward you.

Happily, I have outgrown the type of thinking that would allow me to tell a lie in order to gain something I otherwise wouldn't deserve. I strive with every ounce of my being to be the kind of person that doesn't HAVE to lie. And, I'm pretty fucking proud of myself for living up to that goal at present. I don't lie to get what I want, I ask for it and if the answer is no I find an honest way to gain it.

I was an realtor in So. Cal. when my Century 21 broker started coaching us on how to lie to prospective buyers about Adjustable Rate and No Doc mortgages, as well as the interest only bullshit. I couldn't look people in the eye like that and lie through my teeth to get what I wanted, which was a comfy commission. So I went independent, and found out poste haste that every broker in So. Cal was knee deep in roping buyers into sub-prime loans. I simply walked away from 100k+ because it became too stressful for me to lie in order to line my pockets.

My post was inspired by the very cynical notion posted on this thread that made it okay to lie about your religious beliefs in order to fool someone into voting for you. The notion that lying about your faith was okay if it achieved the desired result.

Hundreds of posters here (myself included) have used the phrase "Bush lied us into war" and for that we want to see him prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Bush lied, that's a given. IF President Obama lied about his faith (and I don't think he did, by the way) wouldn't that mean that "President Obama lied himself into office"? Personally, if it were the case, I would be hard pressed to see the difference.

I can forgive lies. That doesn't mean I have to condone them. It would seem that some here think it's perfectly okay to lie to people of faith in order to be elected to high office by convincing them to vote for you. That, I neither condone, nor forgive. Call me idiotic if you like, but that's how I feel.

Yes I have lied.

[Beetwasher]

147. Ok, So Then You Must Be Untrustworthy About Everything!

Got it!

If someone is voting for someone merely because of their profession of "faith", then they are an idiot and deserve to be lied to. And if a politician goes through the motions of religious beliefs because he HAS to to get elected in this country, well, who's to know? And it doesn't matter and it's totally harmless. What the fuck does his religious beliefs have to do w/ his competency for office??? And how does that make him any less trustworthy than any other person who lies about any number of other things??? It doesn't.

Personally, I believe Obama about his religious views, but I base my votes on my judgement of his competence to do the job, which has NOTHING to do w/ his religion or lack of it.

That's how I feel.

[cherokeeprogressive]

148. Oh come now... NO one "deserves" to be lied to. Do you really believe that?

Where did I ever say that his religious beliefs had anything to do with his competency? My point was that in my simple way of viewing the world, lying to earn votes and achieve high office isn't okay.

I didn't vote for him because he professed faith in any God. I'd bet that I voted for him for the same reasons you did.

So you think me untrustworthy about everything. It's all good. Seeing as how you don't warm my bed on chilly nights nor buy my groceries, I am only mildly concerned about your opinion of me as a person. That's not to say I don't care at all, just that in the Grand Scheme of Things, it's not going to affect me one way or another. Trust me on that.

[Beetwasher]

149. Uh, No, YOU Think You're Untrustworthy About Everything

" Liars are Liars. Period. No liar limits him/herself to lies about only certain things.

After the first lie gets the desired result, subsequent lies become easier and easier to rationalize.

Once a liar, always a liar. Liars lie."

Since EVERYONE has told lies at one point or another, the above idiocy must (according to you) apply to everyone, right?

People lie about stuff all the time, big and small. You have to take them in context. There can be "good" lies (necessary to prevent pain/hurt etc.), "bad" lies (harmful/vindictive/damaging) and even irrelevant "neutral" (meaningless) or pragmatic lies. The world isn't black and white. And frankly, it's idiotic that politicians can't get elected (for the most part) unless they profess their faith. So IMO, for a politician to go through religious motions is pretty much par for the course and irrelevant (unless of course they start trying to ram their faux religion down everyone's throat and pass legislation based on it and use it as a political club). It's a meaningless lie that harms no one, and in fact, probably helps people if it's a GOOD politician who wants to do GOOD things, but wouldn't be elected if he said that he was an atheist.

Who the fuck cares about someone's religion? It should be no one's business anyway and irrelevant to voting. But because of the fucked up nature of this country it's unacceptable for a politician to be godless. That's more fucked up IMO than a politician who may lie about being religious for pragmatic purposes.

[Reterr]

157. Bizarre black and white thinking

I can see a lot of people, including myself, regarding lying about something this trivial (sorry-for a lot of people religion is trivial) as a white lie.

I think it is absurd that we place so much value on such superstitious nonsense in this country, that we only elect "people of faith" into higher office. That worked out really great with the holy son the last 8 years.

[Goblinmonger]

137. Really?

Then you have no clue what it is like to be an atheist in this society.

[Reterr]

158. Same here

I can see how he may be what can vaguely be described as "spiritual", but I have a hard time believing that any educated and reasonably intelligent person can REALLY buy into any rigid religious mythology.

[mvd]

89. No, I don't think so

Does he believe everything Christians believe? Like me, he might not. I believe in God and an afterlife, but I see God as more likely a force than a man. I believe in Jesus's life and resurrection, but I don't believe you have to believe in him to go to heaven. Also not sure about the virgin birth. If there is a hell, I think it's more of an isolation from God. Finally, I don't rule out reincarnation in some cases to perfect the soul.

[cbc5g]

105. I knew he was atheist or a skeptic when he used that "A light will shine down on you and you will

vote Barack". Only someone faking it would say that because it signifies that you know how stupid most religious people are.

If he has to lie to change America than so be it, the ends justify the means. We are fools if we believe all the politicians we respect don't lie to us for political purposes.

[AllentownJake]

117. That was a response to Hillary

or don't you remember her angry speech in Rhode Island against Obama supporters...

[amborin]

122. i hope so, i certainly am...

[beam me up scottie]

124. If he is, we should disown him.

No True Atheist would do that much Jesus-humping just to gain political power.

[Sebastian Doyle]

125. HES A MUSLIN AYRAB!!!!111!!!!

I TELL YA, HE'S A SCARY SCARY AYRAB!!1!!!!11!1 :crazy:

[Lyric]

126. I think he is probably a Deist.

I know a LOT of brilliant people, and oddly enough, I have never met a single brilliant person who was as religious as Obama appears to be. Spiritual, yes--religious, no. I think the religion part is just because anybody who DOESN'T kiss the ass of Traditional American Christianity has basically no chance of getting elected and doing Good.

It doesn't bother me that politicians lie about religion. Bill Clinton's blowjob lie didn't bother me, either. I consider questions about religion and consensual sex to be None of Our Damned Business, and thus fair game for whatever stories said politicians want to make up in order to maintain their privacy.

Besides, let's face it--it's not like he's never compromised his religious priorities for the sake of his career. He got away from Rev. Wright fast enough when he thought he'd lose the election over it, even though we ALL know that much of what Rev. Wright was saying was actually true, and that they'd been friends for 20-odd years. I don't blame him for it a bit, either. Practicality is a GOOD trait, and sometimes the stakes are worth a bit of personal sacrifice.

That being said, I don't think he's an Atheist, either. Hell, *I* am not an Atheist in the strictest sense. I think God is irrelevant to humanity, but I do think that there are bigger/more evolved/more advanced beings than us out there, and they/it probably had something to do with the universe being what it is. However, I think that this thing doesn't even know we *exist*. We're like protons inside of a single atom in this thing's fingernail. We're like the Whos that Horton heard, except our Horton is a million times bigger than an elephant, and we're a million times smaller than a grain of dust. Therefore, God = Irrelevant. But it/they probably do exist in some way, and it wouldn't surprise me if Barack thinks that way, too. He has the brain of a Thomas Jefferson, not a George W. Bush.

:hi:

[Dappleganger]

129. I think he's a pragmatic christian.

[Iggo]

131. I certainly hope so.

[tbyg52]

133. I'm an atheist, and I don't care whether he is or not, or *what* he is, because:

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust"

I agree with most of his ideas regarding our government, and he seems to be an honest and well-meaning person. I could care less about anything else.

[LanternWaste]

139. I'm sure his faith...

I'm sure one's perception of his his faith (or lack thereof) in any one religion is entirely dependent on what that one particular individuals wishes it to be...



If one wishes him to be Christian, evidence will be selected to better reinforce that hope.

If one wishes him to be Muslim, evidence will be selected to better reinforce that hope.

If one wishes him to be atheist, evidence will be selected to better reinforce that hope.

etc.

[shrike]

141. Smart soul that you are, you get it

I know there's a clinical term for this, and any psychologist on DU likely knows it.

A psychologist I once knew used to tell this story: there are three men on a couch and each is asked for their opinion of you. The first really likes you, and says you are wonderful. The second doesn't like you at all, and the third has little opinion of you whatsoever. So what are you: are you good, bad or unmemorable? None of the above really; their opinions have more to do with them and who they are than with you.

We project ourselves onto other people; we see them according to who we are. It's a very human thing to do.

[Hello_Kitty]

140. Speaking of Hitchens, he's an ass but God Is Not Great is an awesome book!

Very entertaining and well-researched. Not that I needed any further persuading that religion is a crock (that's the problem with books like this - they "preach to the converted") but he laid out compelling historical evidence and skewered the illogic and inconsistency of every major religion.

[chrisa]

145. I don't think so. nt

[and-justice-for-all]

150. If he is, thats GREAT....but,

I highly doubt it, if anything he would be better described as a Jefferson Believer(aka Deist) and not an Atheist. If he is, he has to demonstrate it and moreover, who gives a fuck?

[burning rain]

152. I'd say at most...

Barack Obama apprehends the power of religion in American society and politics. I have far too much respect for this very intelligent man than to imagine that he actually believes in talking snakes or resurrection or an afterlife.

[firefox28]

153. No American President has displayed Christian values

No American President has displayed Christian values. No foreign leader has.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

155. Au contraire!

In a war mongering nation it's far more likely that EVERY American President has displayed Christian values!
Chomsky was right though had he deleted "post-war" he would have been even more right.
--------------------------------------------------------

"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." - Noam Chomsky

[ebbie15644]

154. If he is

WHO CARES!!!

[Christa]

156. Who really cares?

I sincerely hope he is. A well educated and obviously intelligent man, I will not be surprised.

[gauguin57]

159. God only knows.

And I'd prefer it stays that way.

[JayMusgrove]

160. The more important question: Is Christopher H. ...

a human being, or just robot that likes to hear itself talk?

I think Hitchens needs to find a real job, his opinions are worthless to America.