If it's a FORGERY, whoever did it has the ORIGINAL.

[TruthIsAll]

And wanted to make Rather look like a fool.

If it's authentic, it's proof that Bush defied the TANG.

It's very simple.

Which is it, Repukes? You can't have it both ways.
Either way, you are exposed.

The Turd Blossom is FOS.

End of story.

[yardwork]

1. There's a third possibility

The secretary suggested that somebody retyped the originals, changing a few phrases here and there to hide their own identity.

That means the originals are out there, and they say the same thing.

[rocktivity]

2. There's a fourth possibility

Killian wrote the memos on someone else's typewriter, kept them in a top secret CYA file that someone has come in posession of, and never mentioned it to his secretary.

:headbang:
rocknation

[CornField]

4. How about a fifth?

The person who recreated these document is someone who viewed the originals, but couldn't take possession of them. (i.e., the person was working from memory -- got the gist of the documents, but made errors in the details)

The big issue now is no longer one of forgery. The person(s) who made these documents did, at some point, have access to the originals. They are recreations, verified by Knox.

What I'm curious about is how long has CBS/Rather known about Knox. We're not talking about journalists right out of the starting gate and looking to make a name for themselves. They would not have run with these documents, I don't think, without vetting them out. Did CBS/Rather know prior to their first broadcast that these were recreations of original documents? If so, why use the documents at all? Why not just bring Knox and Barnes together for a segment?

You also have to wonder at the speed in which our friend Punkhead proclaimed the documents forgeries. Given allowance for time zones, he was able to pick these documents apart within 19 minutes. I don't think CBS had even placed them upon their site at that point. This means that this attorney from Georgia would have to know enough about typefaces and print production from the 1970s to have made this declaration after a few short seconds of viewing on a television screen. I can tell you that before starting my own business (graphic design & layout) that I worked in the printing industry for over 10 years. Those documents were not on the screen long enough for me to notice a superscript 'th' -- and even if they had been, I would not have made the connection that quickly.

Also, I believe the copies released by CBS had the address blacked out -- Punkhead's did not. Punkhead got the documents -- or at least talking points on the documents -- well ahead of time.

Stir the pot some more... the folks who discussed the documents on 60 Minutes have already stated that they didn't see the actual papers, that the text was read to them over the phone. Others have stated that they only verified the signature, implying that they also did not have copies of the documents in question in their hands.

Who then, besides CBS, would have had the full documents given to them prior to the broadcast? The White House. CBS would have been dismiss if they had not provided copies of the documents to the White House so they could answer the charges made.

Now, considering that the information contained in these documents is true (based on Knox's interview), how exactly would the White House know for a fact that they were recreated and not the original documents? This happened 30+ years ago ... how would they remember the format of the documents and the exact wording of the documents? I can only think of two ways: 1) The White House has the originals and compared them; or 2) Someone associated with the White House is the recreator.

[rocktivity]

6. It's Knox's THEORY--not a fact--that the memos are recreations.

There's no reason not to believe that Killian typed them himself on another typewriter (or had Burkett type them), signed them, and either left them with Burkett or filed them someplace Knox didn't know about.

As for Punkhead, he declared to high heaven that there was no possible way the memos could have been typed in the Seventies. That was picked apart within 19 SECONDS, LOL!

:headbang:
rocknation

[cthrumatrix]

9. why not worry about content vs. blame ?

RW media nd Rove is inetrested in one thing...slamming CBS/Dems & Kerry ...this was a "hit".


The papers got into CBS's hands...period. The fact is ...they are content correct. That is the only 100% thing that can be said.

Everything else is a "witch hunt"

[dumpster_baby]

14. Burkett re-created them to avoid legal trouble for himself

He took the memos out of the trash years ago, and has kept them. But if he hands them over to the media, he knows he might be face criminal charges, so he re-created the memos, knowing that the content is correct.

Our best hope right now lies with Marian Carr Knox. She makes a GREAT interview. If she goes on a mass media interviewing tour, it will knock down Bush real quick. She is our best hope right now.

An interviewing spree with her will put the focus on Bush's behavior.

[dumpster_baby]

3. my thoughts, from another thread

Burkett MUST have the originals
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 10:32 PM by dumpster_baby


The memos were signed by Killian, and the signature did fool his son, at least initially. Look at this quote:
"Mr. Killian died in 1984; his widow and son have said that they did not find any memorandums among the private effects they cleared from his office after his death. Mr. Killian's son, Gary, who also served at the squadron and who initially thought that the signatures on the documents matched his father's, has come to believe they are fakes, and said he doubted Mrs. Knox's account, though he recalled her fondly."
from http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/15/politics/campaign/15g...

Now that tells me that Burkett must have had access to Killian's signature. So, he likely has the originals, which he probably pulled out of the trashcan. And, as Marian Knox pointed out on 60 mins tonight, the docs appear to have been changed slightly so as to ensure that the person who gave them to CBS would not get in trouble by giving out Military records to the press without permission. THat is why Burkett copied over the originals: to somehow avoid possible legal consequences.

Now, we know from other reports tonight, that the white house is now planning to release other heretofore unreleased TANG docs from Bush's record. They are probably doing this in order to get out in front of any possible release of new records by Burkett.

I sure hope this all works out OK, but it just might not, and if it does not, then Bush will likely win. I think Burkett and Rather just might both go down on this.

The best possible scenario is that this is going to force Bush to release other docs from his record that are going to do him more damage.






A NOTE OF APPRECIATION FROM THE RICH --> http://www.namebase.org/richnote.html

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Proud2BAmurkin (860 posts) Wed Sep-15-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The only effect this will have on the election is exposing AWOL



the cloak and dagger stuff will have about as much effect as the debate tapes in 2000

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NRK (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-15-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. What if Killian typed them himself?



That would explain why they differ from Knox's memos in format but not details or content. If the documents are "CYA", I know I would want backups in a secure location...away from my office.

It's certainly the simplest explanation for how a genuine signature appeared on a document typed and copied in the early 70's, containing accurate details and in the writing style and sentiments of Jerry Killian.

Bush Flip-Flops

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dumpster_baby (991 posts) Wed Sep-15-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. But what about the Army type language used in the Docs?



As Killian's secretary pointed out, the Army-style language was probably put in there to change the docs from the original.

Burkett probably forged the sigs. He probably got advice from his atty on this matter. He probably knew that as long as he did not copy the docs directly or copy them for money, he would be ok legally. But Dan Rather goes down on this. THe docs are forged, very likely. ANd Burkett did it to burn Bush, while keeping himself in the clear. But Dan Rather gets burned.

Hopefully this interesting story will catch on in the news. The best case scenario is that other tv outlets start interviewing the secretary. If she gets a lot of interviews, and there is not much other news (ie., hurricane news dies down, etc), her interviews alone could scrape a few points off of Bush's lead, in combination with Kitty Kelley.

[TruthIsAll]

5. I don't buy it. Burkett is not stupid. He would not lie to Rather.

If he sent them, the docs are real.

If Rove did, they're forged.

It's that simple.

[rocktivity]

8. Originally posted by TruthIsAll

If (Burkett) sent them, the docs are real. If Rove did, they're forged. It's that simple.
And the best part is, Dan Rather wins either way.

If Burkett sent them, he can say he was setting up the Bush White House and the mainstream media in order to expose them as the right-wing shills that they are. If they're forged, he can say he knew it all along and was setting up the Bush White House to show the depths to which they'd sink to protect Bush and keep him in office.

I knew Dan had something up his sleeve--the mainstream media was too hysterical, and he was taking it much too calmly!

:headbang:
rocknation

[cthrumatrix]

7. you sound like a repug troll who doesn't care about content

[dumpster_baby]

13. grrr

you are the troll

[Killarney]

10. This has Rove written all over it based on his past behavior

While working a campaign in Texas, Rove's guy was running neck in neck. Then Rove found a bug in his office and said it must be from the Democrat's campaign. The backlash came against the Democrats and Rove's candidate won. The thing is... Rove put the bug there himself.

This is how he works.

Now CBS and Dan Rather (Bush 41's nemesis) happen to have documents that almost immediately after their release people start to find fault with and CBS's witnesses are starting to change their mind and sing a different tune. And yesterday, right on time, the White House says Kerry's campaign did it. And the backlash has already begun.

This was the October surprise.

Not only kill the Kerry campaign, but take down that damn librul network with it.

It's Rove's wet dream. He is all over this. He did it.

But instead of losing like the poor Democrat in Texas who was blamed for the bug in Rove's office we need to STEP THE FUCK UP and PROVE that the REPUBLICANS did this. And we need to do it now.

Last night, 60 Minutes really started to back off from the "they are real" line. I think 60 Minutes might start to think now that they were screwed with. But they're not going to lie down and take it.

[cthrumatrix]

11. trolls on DU and RW media want a smear vs CBS & dems..it's simple

they don't want issues discussed... the Rovian ploy is in scramble mode.

[Killarney]

12. Right! It kills all the birds with one stone!

The Kerry campaign
CBS
Dan Rather
The issue (and the TRUTH) about Bush's not-so-much Guard service

(even though the truth about his service still stands, it won't be discussed now... all that will be discussed is the stupid memos)

and
all the other issues!

The war, the economy, N. Korea, Iran, etc are all at the bottom of the news pile now.

Just like Rove/Bush wants it.

This just fucking sucks.

I really hope CBS levels these fuckers. Destroys them.