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JudyInTheHeartland Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:53 PM
Original message
Chicago Tribune: Obama lets CIA keep controversial renditions tool
WASHINGTON — The CIA's secret prisons are being shuttered. Harsh interrogation techniques are off-limits. And Guantanamo Bay will eventually go back to being a wind-swept naval base on the southeastern corner of Cuba.

But even while dismantling these discredited programs, President Barack Obama left an equally controversial counterterrorism tool intact.

Under executive orders issued by Obama last week, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, or the secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the U.S.

"Obviously you need to preserve some tools, you still have to go after the bad guys," said an Obama administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity when discussing legal reasoning behind the decision. "The legal advisers working on this looked at rendition. It is controversial in some circles and kicked up a big storm in Europe. But if done within certain parameters, it is an acceptable practice."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-renditions_31jan31,0,2998929.story
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've been asking about this for weeks.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. And people have been answering it for weeks, not that you'd bother listening. nt
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not acceptable. America does not torture
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Welcome to Better Managed American Imperialism
"within certain parameters"

:eyes:
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snowsman Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. With John Brennan as his advisor, I'm not surprised
As the Washington Post noted the day Brennan was picked as the President's advisor in intelligence matters:

Brennan also has attracted personal criticism from human rights experts for defending the CIA's long-standing practice of forced renditions, or transfers, of terrorism suspects for interrogations, a position that forced the withdrawal in late November of his candidacy to head the CIA.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010804108_pf.html

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. This claim is bogus. The LA Times is also pushing this bogus claim.
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 08:12 PM by ProSense
If the LA Times is right to claim that the Obama administration has left open the possibility of extraordinary renditions, that would be a huge problem. However, I don't think it is. Here it helps to have spent some time reading the actual orders. The order called "Ensuring Lawful Interrogations" contains the following passage:

"Sec. 6. Construction with Other Laws. Nothing in this order shall be construed to affect the obligations of officers, employees, and other agents of the United States Government to comply with all pertinent laws and treaties of the United States governing detention and interrogation, including but not limited to: the Fifth and Eighth Amendments to the United States Constitution; the Federal torture statute, 18 U.S.C. 2340 2340A; the War Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. 2441; the Federal assault statute, 18 U.S.C. 113; the Federal maiming statute, 18 U.S.C. 114; the Federal "stalking" statute, 18 U.S.C. 2261A; articles 93, 124, 128, and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 893, 924, 928, and 934; section 1003 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, 42 U.S.C. 2000dd; section 6(c) of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, Public Law 109 366; the Geneva Conventions; and the Convention Against Torture. Nothing in this order shall be construed to diminish any rights that any individual may have under these or other laws and treaties."

Part 1, Article 3 of the Convention Against Torture states:

"1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights."

Obama orders people to comply with the Convention Against Torture, and that Convention states that we cannot return people to states where there are substantial grounds to believe that they will be tortured. And nothing the Obama administration has done to date suggests to me that they would engage in the kinds of creative reading of legal documents that would allow them, say, to disregard Egypt's long record of torture in making this determination.

Moreover, Obama's Executive Order also establishes a commission one of whose goals is:

"to study and evaluate the practices of transferring individuals to other nations in order to ensure that such practices comply with the domestic laws, international obligations, and policies of the United States and do not result in the transfer of individuals to other nations to face torture or otherwise for the purpose, or with the effect, of undermining or circumventing the commitments or obligations of the United States to ensure the humane treatment of individuals in its custody or control."

So in addition to announcing that the administration will obey the Convention Against Torture, the administration will also study not whether to send detainees off to be tortured, but how to ensure that our policies are not intended to result in their torture, and will not result in their torture. This seems to me like a very clear renunciation of the policy of sending people to third countries to be tortured. His executive order also precludes any kind of secret detention of prisoners, and thus "secret abductions and transfers of prisoners":

"All departments and agencies of the Federal Government shall provide the International Committee of the Red Cross with notification of, and timely access to, any individual detained in any armed conflict in the custody or under the effective control of an officer, employee, or other agent of the United States Government or detained within a facility owned, operated, or controlled by a department or agency of the United States Government, consistent with Department of Defense regulations and policies."

Note that this has no exceptions for short-term detainees whom we quickly hand off to someone else.

<...>

The author of the Times article, however, defines "rendition" as "secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the United States." It's not clear whether he knows that rendition includes perfectly normal things like extradition. It's also not clear that he knows that extraordinary rendition includes not just cases in which we transfer a detainee to another country, but cases in which we capture someone abroad and take them to this country to be tried.

What is clear, however, is that Obama's executive order prohibits sending people off to other countries where there are substantial grounds to think that they will be tortured, and commits his administration not just to hoping that this will not happen, but to trying to figure out how to keep it from happening. I will continue to watch what the Obama administration does. If they backtrack on their commitment not to engage in extraordinary rendition, I will call them on it. But I don't think that this article provides evidence that they will.

link


Standing Behind a Ban on Torture by General James P Cullen





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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So many times it pays not to take
the corporatemedia at face value.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Rachel was talking tonight about a possible Bush mole buried in this administration leaking this
to try to bolster the case for Junior's policies, but Rachel also interviewed a couple reliable sources that say the rendition referred to is not extraordinary rendition nor anywhere in the ballpark. They think it's a ploy by embedded Bushies to claim Obama is continuing their illegal, immoral policies, and it appears the leak was misleading at best.

The shit is flying at him from all kinds of places.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. And you can tell who would rather fling RW shit than actually bother finding out the facts.
OMG OBAMA HAS BRETRAYED US ALL.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. It's predictable though.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 12:41 AM by AtomicKitten
There are people on both sides of the aisle anxious to trip him up.
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. When I see/hear/read something completely antithetical to what I
know has been the consistent ideas and beliefs that I, personally voted for - I get skeptical. It seems to be a useful practice. So far, I've been pleasantly un-surprised...

Makes me think of an oft' used cliche, but sort of in reverse:

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's unlikely that claims saying the duck has suddenly become an earthworm should be immediately considered accurate. (Or something like that).

: )
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Yes, it is and I'm thinking
they'll be learning on the job how to deal with it the most effectively.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Time for another DU Ignorance On Display thread, fueled by sloppy right-wing journalism.
Edited on Mon Feb-02-09 11:46 PM by Occam Bandage
This is not extraordinary rendition. Unless people are planning on going against Obama's orders, they aren't secret in the same way, and there isn't torture (or necessarily any interrogation whatsoever) involved, nor is indefinite imprisonment involved. "Rendition" simply means transfer. Obama is going to allow the CIA to transfer captured criminals to foreign countries (usually the ones who would have jurisdiction usually) for trial and imprisonment under the law, which in my book beats the hell out of having to deal with them ourselves.
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Are they using the exact wording/definition of the executive order regarding
this matter? There may be a need for the transfer of prisoners while things are sorted out - but is "secret abductions" a formal legal part of the measure? If so, what is meant by that?

For some reason this term sounded like it may be more sensational than whatever it is that is really going on or in the actual order. Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that it may be something like that or there is something else missing.

I have never seen or heard or read anything from Obama, ever, that tells me he is not trying to do the right thing as far as this country's treatment of international/wartime issues such as prisoners and their treatment under varied circumstances and our adherence to them.

This just doesn't fit with that. I would be shocked to find that Obama's consistency was dishonest, but I wouldn't be surprised if media interpretation might be inaccurate or incomplete...

Just a thought...
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You would be interested in this thread.
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. You're right. Thank you.... : ) n/t
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. Renditions are different from extraordinary renditions and torture.
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 04:27 PM by ClarkUSA
And the Chicago Tribune is a conservative newspaper who supported BushCo for eight years. They're trying to smear
President Obama using their own ignorance and that of others as a club.




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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. Whats wrong with Rendition? Its not the illegal practices of rendition
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