The Taliban are Nazis and the women of Afghanistan are the concentration camp victims

[Peacetrain]

As one who was trying to get the message out about the women of Afghanistan long before 9/11, this group is a nightmare unleashed.

There was one hospital in all of the country that women were allowed to go to including having children. The death rate for women in childbirth was off the charts. The hospital was the most dilapidated thing you could imagine.

Animals are treated better under the Taliban then women are. They are covered head to toe, and can be beaten or even killed for laughing.

There is nothing worth saving in the Taliban. They embrace a bastardization of Islam in the same way that the KKK uses Christian symbols.

The Bush administration tried to make a deal with them in May of 2001. Offering them money.

The Taliban should never have the ability to take over a country again.

[lunatica]

1. Another Bush Fail...

And to remember how the Bush administration exploited this about the horrible treatment Afghani women must bear and how Laura supposedly made Bush promise to always take care of the women is sickening. They never had any intention of doing a thing for Afghanistan. All it had was an oil pipe. Their real goal was the oil in Iraq.

[Peacetrain]

5. That is so true.. with that run into Iraq the Tali's made for

the border of Pakistan and went into the mountain towns, where they terrorize the locals into joining their ranks.

Most people tend to forget in Nazi Germany only 10% of the people were party members, the rest went along out of fear. To not give the Nazi salute would have cost you your life.

Oil men first patriots second in the case of the neo cons and their hangers on.

[avaistheone1]

243. Women are killed, abused and mutilated around much of the

world. It is totally wrong. However, I don't think we should lead an effort in Afghanistan. I think other Middle Eastern countries should go in. They understand the people and the terrain better. We are viewed as total Western invaders and outsiders. We are going to be targets of the Afghans as well as of the Taliban.

I think it would be best if we stuck our nose in our own business and get our own country back on track, as the USA is on the verge of collapse.

[ieoeja]

259. Afghanistan is not in the Middle East.

In fact, non-Taliban Afghans largely resented the foreign influence (Al Qaeda) within the Taliban.

[avaistheone1]

275. When did Afghanistan move? lol

Look. I checked and Afghanistan is still in the Middle East. Damn. It is smack in the middle of the Middle East.



Afghanistan
Afghanistan's evolution from its origins as a crossroads in the Middle East to the Soviet invasion of 1979; the rise and fall of the Taliban, its use as a sanctuary by Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, and its current struggles in the war on terror.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/me.htm

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/mecaps.htm

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/meriv.htm

http://middleeast.about.com/od/afghanistan/Afghanistan.htm

http://middleeastdesk.org/article.php?list=type&type=5

http://www.coedu.usf.edu/culture/Afghanistan.htm

http://www.unops.org/english/whatwedo/Locations/MiddleEast/Pages/AfghanistanOperationsCentre.aspx

[BunkerHill24]

2. Maybe we can replace the falling bombs with health care and infrastructures

that's start, no?

[cali]

6. the problem with that is that the Taliban

would make it completely impossible to deliver aid or infrastructure.

[Marrah_G]

9. That is absolutely a start

The biggest thing is to wipe out every poppy field and provide other crop opportunities while at the same time guarding those farmers from reprisals and ensure they have necessities.

Poppies =money=guns to the Taliban.

They control through fear and intimidation.

We need to do two things at once: rebuild infrastructure AND put down the Taliban.

Afghani people are a beautiful, brilliant, and colorful culture, but they need help to get out from under the control of those who have the guns.

[cali]

18. The problem is that one can't do those things without

the military. It's impossible.

[avaistheone1]

216. Actually the Afghans have run off the Taliban themselves in villages where infrastructure has been

established.

Evidently the Afghans are motivated to fight off the Talban when the Afghans have their own infrastructure in-place. Interesting how that works.

[Vincardog]

22. Why do you think those fields are there? Because the Taliban lends them money for seeds. The BCF

cames its' money on the drug trade.

[Marrah_G]

24. That's my point- the farmers are made through either money or intimidation to grow the poppies.

[Vincardog]

277. Farmers grow crops for money. The Taliban are the only ones who will loan the farmers money to buy

seed as long as that seed if for poppies.
If we spend some of the hundreds of billions helping create markets and farms we would not see so many drug farms.

[Joe Chi Minh]

85. Well, I wondered if the Russians offered to help us to wipe out the

poppy fields was some kind of malicious joke at the expense of our covert-operations funding. Or is it untrue that the black ops departments of our secret services rely on drug-trafficking for their funding?

[ShortnFiery]

155. That Heroin money helps keep the "Military Industrial Complex" oiled ... it's Necessary to KEEP

us "thinning the herd."

WAR IS A RACKET!

The powers that be within OUR Military Industrial Complex NEEDS CONFLICT AND WARS to be ongoing in order to keep producing those God Almighty Armaments that lines their pockets.

This must END with "the people" saying ... NO MORE AMERICAN EMPIRE!

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[dbmk]

141. And that is what is taking place in large parts

I am pretty confident that will be a major part of Holbrooks approach too.

The fighting is not going on all over. But where it is taking place, it is much more intense than the news would lead you to believe.

[SKKY]

193. What? You mean rebuild infrastructures instead of demolishing them???

Are you perhaps suggesting that our military, of which I'm a member, could be better served building and protecting new infrastructure projects instead of wiping them off the face of the earth? Man, you're just off your rocker! :sarcasm:

[Marrah_G]

3. The taliban add not one good thing to any community

They bring death and misery wherever they go.

I agree- They should never be allowed to take over any community or country.

They are monsters and they have no place in society.

Many people do not understand just how horrific it is to be a woman in a Taliban controlled area.

Here are some of the restrictions imposed by Taliban on women in Afghanistan

The following list offers only an abbreviated glimpse of the hellish lives Afghan women are forced to lead under the Taliban, and can not begin to reflect the depth of female deprivations and sufferings. Taliban treat women worse than they treat animals. In fact, even as Taliban declare the keeping of caged birds and animals illegal, they imprison Afghan women within the four walls of their own houses. Women have no importance in Taliban eyes unless they are occupied producing children, satisfying male sexual needs or attending to the drudgery of daily housework. Jehadi fundamentalists such as Gulbaddin, Rabbani, Masood, Sayyaf, Khalili, Akbari, Mazari and their co-criminal Dostum have committed the most treacherous and filthy crimes against Afghan women. And as more areas come under Taliban control, even if the number of rapes and murders perpetrated against women falls, Taliban restrictions --comparable to those from the middle ages-- will continue to kill the spirit of our people while depriving them of a humane existence. We consider Taliban more treacherous and ignorant than Jehadis. According to our people, "Jehadis were killing us with guns and swords but Taliban are killing us with cotton."

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the:

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

And so on...



Many of the anti-women rules that Taliban practiced were first of all the rules formulated and practiced by Rabbani-Massoud government after they came to power in 1992, but no one talk about them and it is painful that today even they are called the champaions of women's rights!!

ON November 8, 1994 the UN Secretary-General presented the interim report on the situation of human rights in Afghanistan prepared by Mr. Felix Ermacora, Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights, in accordance with Commission on Human Rights resolution 1994/84 of 9 March 1994, and Economic and Social Council decision 1994/268 of 25 July 1994.

Parts of the report about women's rights sitaution says:


The Special Rapporteur's attention has been drawn to the Ordinance on the Women's Veil, which is reported to have been issued by a nine-member professional committee of the High Court of the Islamic State of Afghanistan and which reads as follows:

"A denier of veil is an infidel and an unveiled woman is lewd".

"Conditions of wearing veil:

1. The veil must cover the whole body.
2. Women's clothes must not be thin.
3. Women's clothes must not be decorated and colourful.
4. Women's clothes must not be narrow and tight to prevent the seditious limbs from being noticed. The veil must not be thin.
5. Women must not perfume themselves. If a perfumed woman passes by a crowd of men, she is considered to be an adulteress.
6. Women's clothes must not resemble men's clothes.

"In addition,

1. They must not perfume themselves.
2. They must not wear adorning clothes.
3. They must not wear thin clothes.
4. They must not wear narrow and tight clothes.
5. They must cover their entire bodies.
6. Their clothes must not resemble men's clothes.
7. Muslim women's clothes must not resemble non-Muslim women's clothes.
8. Their foot ornaments must not produce sound.
9. They must not wear sound-producing garments.
10. They must not walk in the middle of streets.
11. They must not go out of their houses without their husband's permission.
12. They must not talk to strange men.
13. If it is necessary to talk, they must talk in a low voice and without laughter.
14. They must not look at strangers.
15. They must not mix with strangers."

We cannot leave the women of Afghanistan to this fate AGAIN.

[Peacetrain]

10. No we can't Marrah.. we just can't

I am all for the people of Afghanistan having a decent life, they have been in continual war, but to give the reins of power back to those monsters is just unthinkable.

EDIT...thank you for putting up that list..maybe people have forgotten what a nightmare they were.

[Marrah_G]

13. The thought of us pulling out of there and handing it back to the taliban I agree, is unthinkable.

If that happens, every single woman in the country should be taken to a private room ALONE with their children and offered safe passage to America, no questions asked. Even with every safety precaution in place many would be afraid to accept the offer. Battered woman syndrome x1000000

[JeffreyWilliamson]

14. I've happily rec'd this thread.

That this first time I've ever done that. Not sure why I haven't before, but this one certainly deserves it.

That list is just devastating, Marrah. How can we abandon these people?

[Marrah_G]

17. I don't think Obama is going to pull ot of there.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

19. I agree, he's not going to pull out of there.

No way he'd abandon people to that fate.

[bain_sidhe]

27. Oh, those poor Taliban men!

That they could be so weak minded and suggestible that the mere sound of a woman's laugh or the click of her high heels might make them so totally lose their minds and/or the principles of their faith. Think of their horrifying existence... always cringing in fear that something, somewhere, might inspire the mere *thought* of a woman!

We must do something for these poor wretches! I think we should confine them to safe, comforting, padded cells for the rest of their days. (And, of course, served only by men.) Only then may they set their poor, weak minds at rest, secure in the knowledge that they will not be assaulted by evidence, no matter how subtle or distant, that women exist.

(I'm sure it's not needed, but... :sarcasm: )

[Posteritatis]

32. For the non-conscript Taliban? I could probably get behind that

It'd get the misogynistic little fuckers out of the way, at least.

(I get a faint kick, incidentally, out of the fact that so many conservative Muslim males - almost always males - seem so doggedly convinced that only women are capable of being attractive, nevermind shut-the-higher-brain-fuctions-down levels thereof.)

[TheWraith]

56. You may be sarcastic, but the Taliban was no joke for men, either.

Anything from shaving to smiling at a woman you liked, listening to music or giving the wrong cheer at a soccer game, could result in punishment ranging from beatings on up to death by torture.

[Peacetrain]

58. That is very true.. the taliban holds many men in its ranks through sheer fear of torture

and attacks on their families

[ShortnFiery]

146. Do you honestly believe that "The American Empire" that influences Obama gives a rat's ass about ...

the plight of women and children within the NARCO state of Afghanistan?!?

Do you REALLY think even Obama truly cares about making their lives better?!?

Think again because there are other places in the world (China? :wtf:) where women (not within the ruling class-covert) are seen as 2nd class citizens and forced into hard choices (1 child).

We need to get our EMPIRE out of the Middle East completely.

THE WOMEN of Afghanistan do not want an OCCUPYING FORCE (USA Invaders) in their country.

http://www.rawa.org/events/sevenyear_e.htm

As we have declared many times, the US government has no and will not have any genuine concern for the condition of freedom, democracy and women’s rights in Afghanistan. It is ready to accept a more corrupt, destructive and anti-democratic government than the one in power now, provided that its stooges are the rulers. Therefore today, some top criminals are being consistently freed from the prison. This clearly shows that “democracy” and “freedom of women” do not hold even an iota of value for the US administration and its allies in Afghanistan. They are planning to install a government made up of Talib and Gulbuddini criminals; Khalqi and Parchami Quislings; lackeys of the blood thirsty Iranian regime from the “National Front”; and some other reactionary and treasonous elements related to the intelligence services of the West, so that even without direct military presence they would be able to control the country and save the country from becoming Iraq where the people rose against the US forces and its allies. If the US argues that it has not committed treachery, with the establishment of a government woven of the dirtiest enemies in the history of Afghanistan, they have committed the biggest possible treason against the Afghan nation, and they will not be able to justify this with any kinds of fabrications and cheatings.

-------------

At least if we were NOT bombing their buildings to "kibbles and bits and bits" more of the Afghani WOMEN'S children would be alive today. They could gather more strength within their system and we could encourage CHANGE though public works projects vice bombing the shit out of the populace and thus creating more terrorists.



--------------

Oh, and BTW what about the POOR OPPRESSED WOMEN (and CITIZENS in general) of Saudia Arabia?!?

[Still Sensible]

4. Absolutely

This more than anything is why President Obama is right to try and "win" in Afghanistan. And if our efforts can bring Al Queda and Bin Laden to justice or their just deaths, all the better.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

7. Thank you for this!

The posts on here advocating just pulling out and leaving the Taliban to their whims are incredible.

These people cannot be allowed to continue this torture of their own people.

Afghanistan has to be stabilized long enough the build up their infrastructure, inprove the peoples' quality of life, and offer them the chance for an education. These people have to be given some kind of hope. Only then will we be able to start to see a decrease in terrorism.

[Marrah_G]

11. I believe that is because people do not understand the extent the Taliban go to.

They do not understand what monsters they are and how the women are slaves, treated far worse then most realize. Less then human, less then even an animal. I would rather be born a goat in Afghanistan then a female.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

12. I worry that people have allowed Bush's lies and war in Iraq...

To convince them that anything he touched must be evil, and that includes taking out the Taliban.

These people are absolutely brutal. BRUTAL.

It would almost be a crime against humanity itself to NOT stop them.

[Marrah_G]

16. I agree with you completely

Most people need to read the list I posted above and then stop to think how that would effect every aspect of the womens life and also realize that if the woman has no mahram or no husband the rules are not set aside. They can rely on neighbors for help or die of starvation in their homes.

[Every Man A King]

116. Saddam wasn't brutal?

WTF this thread is nuts.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

127. Saddam was brutal...

But he didn't attack us, or shelter those who did.

He killed many thousands of his own people, with weapons we sold him during our proxy war with the Soviets. Read up on your history...

When we went in, we helped off about 100,000 more on our own, even higher by some estimates. We were coaxed into going by lies, for revenge, and for oil.

The Taliban in Afghanistan gave shelter and resources to those who attacked us. We knew they were horrible human rights violators before we went in, but went in when they helped attack us. We were wrong not to help the people there before that, but at least when we did finally go we saved the people that were there.

Saved, versus killed.

Death by dictator over a long period of time, versus substantial deaths by us over a shorter period.

Destabilizing an entire region, versus ensuring the safety of a region.

War based upon lies and cover ups, versus war for justice.

Why can't anyone see that the two wars are two different things? I hated George W. Bush when he stole the office from Gore, but even I knew that going to Afghanistan after September 11th was our only option. I protested the Iraq war and was harassed, but I never became so disillusioned because of it that I forgot what the Taliban did to the people in Afghanistan.

Why can't people see the two as different things? I credit it to George Bush himself, the traitor. His very touching of Afghanistan colored it in too many eyes. In that sense, he is yet again, a miserable failure...

[Every Man A King]

132. You have now parted with the OP viewpoint tho

Haven't you? The OP says we need to stay in Afghanistan to make it a better place to live, not to capture Bin Laden. I agree that politially we can't leave until we get Bin Laden, but i think the OP is saying something else entirely.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

135. Touche. You've got me there.

I guess I have left the confines of the original post. And we would both agree that we can't leave until we get bin Laden.

I do think that we should be there to help the Afghanistan population, regardless of bin Laden, just as I think we should be in Darfur. But you've caught me in my own argument here.

I'll give you the score on this one.

[Peacetrain]

251. Show me one place I said in my op or any post on this thread

we need to stay in Afghanistan to make it a better place? I am for UN involvement

[lordcommander]

8. I completely agree with you peacetrain

The Taleban makes our religious right look humane and tolerant. The Taleban must be defeated in Afghanistan, at the same time we must eliminate the nacro-state there and put more emphasis on infrastructure, building schools for BOTH boys and girls and make sure civilian casualties go way down fast by building a better relationship between the civilians and our military.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. I know you meant "narco-state" but just the same, judging by

your name.... I wouldn't surprised if you had put "necro-state".... heh! Come to think of it, it sounds as if the Taliban pretty much have the same mindset as "LordCommander".

[lordcommander]

76. Probably my spell check isnt good lol

thanks for clarifying it
:hi:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

80. Just saw a way to make a play on your name... welcome to

DU Lordcommander :)

[lordcommander]

87. Thanks HysteryDiagnosis

:hi:

[cali]

15. The Taliban scare the hell out of me.

An excellent book about them is Ahmed Rashid's, "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia".

The thought of women in Afghanistan having to return to being under the thumb of the Taliban is just awful.

[HereSince1628]

20. Yes, the Saudis should make sure that the Taliban never takes over a country again.

And I suggest its either theirs or China's turn to burn through a trillion dollars.

[Peacetrain]

21. I hope to God we are about more than money that we would let

half the Afghani population be subjected to beatings, beheadings and burnings for looking the wrong way.

We have got to get the United Nations in there, because the monsters are growing again.

[HereSince1628]

41. We have no leverage left in the UN.

Our leverage was based on US economic and military hegemony. Our economic situation is in ruins. Our conventional ground forces are in a shambles from overuse.

Foreign entanglements is what Jefferson, the father of our party, called it. He warned of our ability for self-destructive foreign entanglements.

Trying to prop up a puppet has the same high probability of ending as our puppeteering did in the Republic of Vietnam.

Let the UIF fight against its enemy. Let us bring our assets home.

[Peacetrain]

44. There is a moral responsiblity here.. little girls getting acid thrown in their faces

some things are worth spending political capital on.. some things are worth going to the United Nations and shaming them into action.

Some things are worth the effort..

[HereSince1628]

84. Yes, there is. But it is not a moral obligation that demands US military force

It is an AFGAN problem. The United States has supported both sides: the Taliban and the UIF/Northern Alliance. We have NO credibility in this. Moreover, as a NATION, we have nothing as a nation to gain. Let the forces that have something to gain take an active, even militaristic, role in achieveing THEIR goals.

The DLC/NeoCon/Trotskyite notion of solution by military intervention is simply the insanity of trying to impose the morality/sanity defined by an outside culture onto a people who don't believe it.

WHY, oh why would someone from a different culture accept the view of outsiders as superior to their own? Because it is enforced by microwave radiation weapons, phosphorus bombs, cluster ammunitions, helicopter borne chainguns? Do you REALLY think THAT works?

To free themselves of gender-based violence, the Afghans must see gender based violence as wrong from their own perspective.

That perspective is not a gift to be bestowed upon Muslims. It is a perspective that must become clear from their own position.

United States forces ONLY interest in Afghanistan was capturing and bringing to justice the individuals associated with 9/11. As it seems, our quarry has moved outside of Afghanistan and is beyond the useful intervention of conventional forces. Consequently, it is time to bring our conventional forces home.

If Obama and Congress want to provide the UIF/Northern Alliance/Karzai government with money to fight the Pushtan/Taliban/Kandahar they can make their claims in public and incurr accontability from voters.

Personally, I am opposed. We have NOTHING to gain by a fight there.

Women and children saved by Americans killing Taliban will only be viewed as Americans who killed Afghanis. This is a NO WIN situation.

Defending moral highground that is actually shallow water in a swamp is worthless.

[Every Man A King]

117. They are growing because we are occupying their country

and Taliban has become to mean any Pashtun.

[cali]

23. kick

The Taliban, women and Afghanistan are an important topic.

[Posteritatis]

25. Psych situation, too - there's one 40-bed mental hospital for the whole country

And the Afghan's own government estimates at this point that two thirds of the population need at least some kind of help in that department. Ugh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7838270.stm

(Ed. - Forgot the source.)

[Warren Stupidity]

26. How many Aghanis should we kill to prevent the Taliban from taking over?

[Peacetrain]

31. How many Afghani women being burned, beheaded and brutialized

are we willing to accept? The Taliban are not the Afghani people. The Taliban are basically the KKK of the Islamic religion.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. The Taliban are largely afghani.

I don't like them either, but I want to know, and you can't seem to answer, how many Afghanis we ought to kill in order to make sure the Taliban do not come back into power. And as a follow up, do the Afghani people have any say in this matter?
Do they get to say 'no, go home' to our policies?

[Peacetrain]

48. See post 44

[Warren Stupidity]

49. That simply does not address the question.

Are you willing to kill all the Pashtun men, for example, if that is what it takes to prevent the Taliban from coming back into power?

Are you willing to kill far more women and children than the Taliban have killed, or will kill over the same period of time, if that is what it takes?

Do the people of Afghanistan have any say in your policy?

[Peacetrain]

53. So you just will leave half the Afghani population to be brutalized?

Are you not willing to take their plight to the UN?

[Warren Stupidity]

66. Take their plight to the UN?

Oh sure I'm all for that. What I'm not all for is imposing our will on Afghanistan by killing lots of people.

[Peacetrain]

55. Let me add this.. I have no idea what battle you are fighting here

but my posts on the Taliban stand, and I have been fighting this battle long before 9/11. I will not stand in a corner and shut up, while these brutalities go on.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. I want to know to what extents you will go to impose your beliefs on others

It seems a very simply question. Will you slaughter the people of Afghanistan endlessly in order to prevent an outcome you consider unacceptable?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

74. The Taliban's record of brutality is not a "belief"...

...that we can simply feel our beliefs are superior to. This isn't a cultural difference that we just don't understand because we haven't experienced it. It's pure and simple brutality.

This isn't an issue of what peacetrain or anyone else considers unacceptable, it's what we should all feel is unacceptable as human beings with any kind of conscience. We aren't talking about people who practice ritual canabalism as a funeral rite, as some tribes in the Amazon basin do. This isn't about what people find distasteful.

We are talking about skull-bashing, setting people on fire, hangings, stonings, beheadings, torture, acid-throwing, raping, slavery of women and children, and otherwise murdering whole swaths of the population just for simply existing and having some kind of life.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. Yes and again: how many will you kill to prevent this?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

114. It's not a question of kill, it's a question of defend...

If you were walking down the street with an African American friend, or a gay friend, and a group of five thugs came up, and noticed your friend's skin color or mannerisms, and decided that they would bash their skull in for it, would you stand by and say, "well, not my problem, I mean, I have an ethical issue with beating up the five to save the one."?

[Warren Stupidity]

145. No it is a question of killing.

When the village up the road is occupied by the Taliban the response is to bomb and assault the village and the result is that a few Taliban get killed and lots of women and children get killed.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

163. I don't agree with those tactics, personally.

I get tired of reading about that kind of stuff on the Pak border.

It would be nice if the Pakistani military would take a little time to do its job.

Good morning. :hangover:

[Peacetrain]

81. Who has said anything about slaughtering the Afgani people but you?

Quite the opposite, I do not want to see people maimed killed by any group..

As I have said more than once and referred you to more than once, we have to move as a nation to press the United Nation, shame them if we must to step in and protect the women of Afghanistan.

EDIT: letting my emotions get the better of me..not good for anyone

[Warren Stupidity]

94. you argument is now deceitful

the entire thread is littered with demands that we continue to occupy Afghanistan. Your own words undermine your assertion that you do not intend to kill Afghanis to prevent the return of the Taliban. "we have to move as a nation to press the United Nation, shame them if we must to step in and protect the women of Afghanistan". How exactly do you propose to step in (and we are already there) without violence?

And the question remains unanswered: how many people are you willing to kill to keep the Taliban out of power?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

118. peacetrain is not being deceitful...

But you are. This thread is not "littered with demands that we continue to occupy Afghanistan". This thread is littered with people trying to explain that human beings are being murdered and tortured in Afghanistan, and that sometimes the most powerful of peoples have an obligation to stand up and protect them when no one else will.

I've been a strong advocate in this thread of our intervention in Afghanistan. But in nearly every one of peactrain's post, it has been advocated that we use our bully pulpit to engage the UN in order to help protect Afghani women and children. That's no demand for continued occupation, that's a realistic plea for humanity.

If you want to take out your occupation fantasies on someone, take them out on me, not peacetrain. I DO MOST CERTAINLY advocate our intervention in Afghanistan, to save them, even if no one else will help. Sometimes people have to stand against the bullies in the world. And yes, I know that it's not our "job". But sometimes it's "right" all the same, (see: Nazis, Europe, Jews). Peacetrain is advocating worldwide involvement for humanities' sake.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. How exactly is the UN going to do that?

at least be honest. You admit that you are for continued military action, so you are being honest. The OP is not. The OP is dishonestly pretending that 'going to the UN' will magically cause the Taliban to cease and desist, but also admits that some other ill-defined action may be necessary. We already have an international (NATO) military effort in Afghanistan, putting the UN flag on that operation is not going to change anything.

So, how many Afghani women and children are you willing to kill in order to save them from the Taliban?

[leftynyc]

168. Maybe others are not able to say it

But I am. I would kill every man who considers himself a Talib. I would go further and make sure that every woman is armed. They don't respect human life and I feel the same about them. And to make it clear - women are not taliban - only men.

[Every Man A King]

110. All progressive forces were destroyed

by the US supported rebels fighting the Soviets. That is the truth that no one wants to admit.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

257. Yup, the dirty secret that few Americans acknowledge, along with the fact

that the CIA actually SUPPORTED the Taliban after the Russians left, because they felt that only the Taliban were disciplined enough to control the country.

[ShortnFiery]

150. This reminds me of The Vietnam War. If we kill enough of the amorphous "THEM" everything will be...

sweetness and light.

Truth is, there's thousands of years of culture that represses women. Only lifting these tribal areas out of ABJECT POVERTY will genuinely increase the quality of life for women.

WE, the occupying force, do not FIX anything.

Truth be told, the women would rather be oppressed by their NATIVES than be ruled by an OCCUPYING FORCE.

It's POVERTY, not "the Taliban" in and of itself, that lowers the standing of WOMEN.

[Zynx]

258. Afghanistan never democratically put the Taliban in there. Who knows what popular opinion was?

It seems from everything I understand that the Taliban is tremendously unpopular among everyone in Afghanistan except the crazy fundies. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

[Every Man A King]

121. This is an outright lie

The Taliban were Afghani from the start.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

131. peacetrain is making a differentiation from what the Afghani's are, and what the Talibani are...

Yes, members of the Taliban are from Afghanistan, as well as Pakistan, and I'm sure other regions. Peacetrain is attempting to differentiate between the Afghani people, who want to just live, and the Taliban, who want to brutally oversee them.

Do you believe that the Phelps clan are "regular Americans"?

[cali]

36. we are not inflicting large casualties on the Afghan population

and we are preventing women there from living in the purest hell. but, hey, they're only women. who gives a flying fuck, right?

[Warren Stupidity]

46. so how many civilian casualties are acceptable?

"Afghan President Hamid Karzai has criticised a US military operation which killed at least 16 people in eastern Afghanistan.
Mr Karzai said most of those killed were civilians, adding that such deadly incidents strengthened Taleban rebels and weakened Afghanistan's government. Women and children were among those killed, Mr Karzai said."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7850146.stm

But they are only women and children, who gives a flying fuck, right?

[LittleBlue]

69. Sub-Saharran African women arguably suffer just as much

Why don't we just rescue all women of the world? And since you're probably not sexist, why not all the places where men are suffering?

It's not possible, and it's not our jobs to be the morality police.

[Every Man A King]

137. Maybe we should just kill all the men? n/t

[JeffreyWilliamson]

138. The poster was using sarcasm...

But you knew that. The point was that we are not killing all Afghani people. We are trying to kill the Taliban that will not leave the Afghani people alone.

Look, this is kind of a war, and no one is trying to excuse the fact that in a wartime situation, people get wounded or killed. You will find that most of us, regardless of our opinion on this subject, are sick to our stomachs every time we read an article citing an innocent person's death because of something we have done. It is, unfortunately, a sad fact, that people die in wars.

Were we to leave, and the Taliban to take over, a good many more people would be made to suffer. For some of us, as hard as it is to hear about death, we find it just as deplorable to abandon those that are innocent.

[Warren Stupidity]

147. "we are not killing all Afghani people."

Of course we are. Every week another military atrocity, another oops we blew up a bunch of civilians event occurs. Kharzi, the elected ruler of Kabul issues another outraged request that we stop, that this is not helping, and we ignore him.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

164. No we aren't.

We are not attempting to exterminate all Afghani people.

[ieoeja]

263. An Afghani is not a person.

I don't care how many Afghanis we have to destroy. They have no feelings. We could build huge furnances and throw all the Afghanis into them for all I care.




























It was so tempting just to end my post at that point. But before I cause your head to explode, I suppose I should mention the following:

- Afghan: a citizen of Afghanistan
- Afghani: the currency of Afghanistan

[Uzybone]

29. Thier reign of terror is only spreading, fuck the Taliban.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/asia/25swat.html?hp

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Every night around 8 o’clock, the terrified residents of Swat, a lush and picturesque valley a hundred miles from three of Pakistan’s most important cities, crowd around their radios. They know that failure to listen and learn might lead to a lashing — or a beheading.

Using a portable radio transmitter, a local Taliban leader, Shah Doran, on most nights outlines newly proscribed “un-Islamic” activities in Swat, like selling DVDs, watching cable television, singing and dancing, criticizing the Taliban, shaving beards and allowing girls to attend school. He also reveals names of people the Taliban have recently killed for violating their decrees — and those they plan to kill.

With the increasing consolidation of their power, the Taliban have taken a sizable bite out of the nation. And they are enforcing a strict interpretation of Islam with cruelty, bringing public beheadings, assassinations, social and cultural repression and persecution of women to what was once an independent, relatively secular region, dotted with ski resorts and fruit orchards and known for its dancing girls.

Last year, 70 police officers were beheaded, shot or otherwise slain in Swat, and 150 wounded, said Malik Naveed Khan, the police inspector general for the North-West Frontier Province.

[leftstreet]

30. I cannot fucking believe the pro-war fever pitch on DU

:puke: :puke: :puke:

Does anyone honestly believe Americans will let Obama slide on more war? The anti-war movement tanked under the Bush administration because we all came to believe the War Dogs wouldn't listen, didn't care, and couldn't be stopped.

Obama will not be able to enjoy that same resignation by the citizenry.

[Peacetrain]

33. This is not pro war.. this is not letting the Taliban

loose on the Afghani women again and brutalizing them. That means UN intervention and us not just walking out the door and leaving them to be burned or beheaded

[JeffreyWilliamson]

35. Exactly.

Was it pro-war to free the concentration camps? Or was it pro-humanity?

[Every Man A King]

134. The same argument was made about Iraq

Saddam brutalized Shia and Kurd, are you denying that? Your viewpoint is the right of Bush 41.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

136. The prime argument about Iraq was that they had WMD's...

And that they were a direct threat to us. Anyone with an internet connection, and five minutes of time, could have read the UN reports and realized that this claim was bullshit.

[TayTay]

223. The UN is in Afghanistan

There is a dishonest argument going on in this thread.

The original argument is that women are being abused in Afghanistan under the fundamentalist Taliban rule. True.
The second argument is that America may not be able to achieve a "victory" and roust the Taliban from Afghanistan and, now Pakistan. True.
Third, the UN should do something. Ah, the UN is already in Afghanistan. They have troops there from 41 different nations. They have monitors who are observing humanitarian conditions and are already sounding alarms about the treatment of the people under this regime.

http://www.nato.int/issues/isaf/index.html">This link goes to the UN summary of it's forces in Afghanistan. (NATO forces are operating under a UN mandate. Those are the UN troops.)

The UN is aware of what is going on. There are continuing resolutions issued by the UN that are in effect. http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=82502">Monitoring is going on. There are 55,100 NATO troops there under a UN mandate and in support of UN resolutions.

The problem is that this may not be enough to affect the outcome. America can "surge" 30,000 more troops. The question is whether this amount of troops in the mountainous terrain of the border region with Pakistan (and into Pakistan) can do enough to prevent the Taliban from keeping control.

Everyone wants to rid the world of evil. The question is how do you do it? Or, in some cases, can you do it? The successes in Afghanistan after the initial invasion in 2001 have eroded. The country is basically a narco-state now.

Many posts in this thread are dishonest. People who question the effectiveness of the war are not against the rights of women. People who support the rights of women can also question the strategy and wisdom of the current military actions in Afghanistan (and Pakistan.) Sometimes all options are bad. Sometimes you have to choice among the least immoral thing. Sometimes life only offers pain and problems. This may be one of those cases.

[Peacetrain]

250. Actually UN involvement is minimal at best

The UN's role in the country includes an election operation that is working with Afghan authorities to register voters and organize elections for 2009 and 2010. Other efforts include promoting of good governance and the rule of law, training of police, and the like. But in a land torn by violence, warlordism, drug production and intense suspicion of foreigners, these programs seem unreal and very unlikely to succeed. Until Afghanistan achieves a lasting and stable peace designed and supported by Afghanis, there can be no prospect of progress, electoral or otherwise.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/afgindx.htm

[TayTay]

253. Exactly the point

The UN has been involved in Afghanistan for years. They have been ineffective and are highly unlikely to be anything else.

What exactly do you think the UN is capable of doing that they haven't already done? Where is the international commitment to this or do you think this should be another instance of the US policing the world and accepting all the fiscal responsibility and military responsibility?

This is not going to work. We have to substantially rethink what we (NATO allies and UN alike) are doing in Afghanistan and whether or not it is actually accomplishing anything. What are we doing that isn't just breeding more back and forth war without accomplishing anything, let alone the goal of advancing the cause of women.

What concrete actions do you see the world community doing there? The UN has not done much of anything and I don't think it can do much of anything without a stronger commitment from member nations, which is not going to be forthcoming for an endless war without a plan, and exit strategy or any idea of what to do. (Please tell me what countries you see jumping in to help women or anyone else under those conditions.)

[Peacetrain]

34. What I can't understand is the lack of concern for half the Afghani people

[leftstreet]

40. Because that particular Talking Point won't fly anymore

America is not a comfortable middle class culture where strife and oppression happen in far away places, and citizens at home can "feel good" and patriotic about maintaining American imperialism.

This country is experiencing an economic SHITSTORM and if the Dems were successful in one thing during the 2006 midterms, it was convincing voters that war is pointless, EXPENSIVE, and wrong.

[MadBadger]

43. No, they convinced people that the IRAQ war was pointless, expensive and wrong.

What is with people confusing the Anti-War movement with the Anti-Iraq War movement?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

50. I've been wondering that myself all day.

I clearly remember people saying in 2006 that Iraq was a mistake that had diverted our attention from where we should have been--Afghanistan.

[Peacetrain]

45. See post 44

[cali]

51. it's not about talking points just because YOU say it is

and it's not even about American imperialism. And sorry, you're clearly wrong in how you interpret the last two elections. It was about the Iraq War being wrong. Voters did not vote to get out of Afghanistan.

[Every Man A King]

115. We cannot afford to be an empire anymore

Our economy is falling apart and you are calling for endless war.

[cali]

38. this is not pro-war. duh.

I want Afghanis to have a fucking chance. You've made it clear you don't give a shit. fine

[Odin2005]

182. I cannot fucking beleive that you Naive Pacifists are defending the Taliban.

:puke:

[leftstreet]

231. LOL 'Pacifist' as a pejorative is sooooo retro

You all need to get some updated Talking Points

[Odin2005]

276. Pacificism's fatal flaw is that you can't have a rational discussion with people that prefer...

...shooting you rather then being convinced by you. Which is why I call people that think they can reason with such people naive.

[leftstreet]

278. No doubt this is the theory behind Resistance to American Imperialism n/t

[rockymountaindem]

37. For once, an apt Holocaust analogy

Normally they're dumb and insulting, but this one is right on. There can be absolutely no compromise with the likes of the Taliban. Unfortunately, our chances of promoting peaceful change away from their rule are small or nil, as they clearly rule through terror and violence, and provide some advantage to membership in their organization (the chance to wield power, I suppose). On the other hand, getting rid of them will undoubtedly bring harm to some of those we are seeking to help. It's a no-win, for sure.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

39. That's about it in a nutshell. n/t

[anonymous171]

42. I'm an isolationist, so I don't really care about that.

What I do care about is the fact that the Taliban were harboring a certain Islamic Extremist group that had taken responsibility for 9/11. If we are attacked it is our responsibility to attack back.

[tekisui]

52. Thanks for posting.

The Taliban need to be taken down and prevented from gaining more power in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I just wonder what the most effective approach is. I would rather see the poppy production destroyed, cutting off their funding, while Afghanistan is rebuilt. But, I don't think their is a military solution to the problem of the Taliban. They have the mountains that they can wait out, rebuild and return for years if needs-be.

[Peacetrain]

57. It is a horrific situation.. This is where the UN needs to be..

The taliban like the KKK and the nazi groups will never go away, but we can keep them boxed in and hopefully never let them take over a country again...We need to shame the UN into action on behalf of the Afghani women children and men who are too scared to fight against the taliban. I

[rollin74]

54. K&R

great post.

What a tragedy it would be if the Taliban were ever allowed to regain control of Afghanistan.

I keep thinking of an interview I saw recently with some of the girls who were victims of the acid attack on their school. They were attacked because they are female and are attending school. The girls are so brave and defiant. They are determined to keep going to school regardless of what the Taliban thinks about it. They were willing to face further attacks and even death rather than quit school and back down to the Taliban bastards that attacked them.

[leftynyc]

169. We need to protect the backs

of these incredibly brave women and children.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

59. I just want to say again that this is an excellent, excellent thread...

People really need to see the Taliban for who they are and what they do to their own people--especially the women and girls.

No child, anywhere, should have their curiosity about the world around them rewarded with acid thrown on their face.

[Peacetrain]

62. There is so much going on that many have forgotten

how horrible the Taliban were..

[alwysdrunk]

60. So that means we have to kill or imprison most or all of these guys

And the OP posts the reasons. I wonder what the anti-war movement stance is on the Taliban? To mean the war in Afghanistan is a totally separate issue from Iraq. Is there a real movement the Afghan war?

[Peacetrain]

61. I would imprison in a heartbeat any Taliban who committed those atrocities

but with the help of the international community and then the Islamic communities we can box the bastards in just like we do with our own KKK and Aryan Nations types.. We need to let the women and men in the tribal territories know it is going to be okay because we will not let the Taliban take over the country again. Does not mean they will instantly go away, cockroaches like that never do..

[alwysdrunk]

63. You said it, the Islamic communities.

They would have never helped Bush for any reason. Will they help Obama? It remains to be seen. It seems to me though the only consensus between the West and the Islamic world when is comes to Afghanistan is that it may be time to start working with the Taliban, like we started working with Al-Sistani in Iraq.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

68. Unfortunately the Taliban is not a group we can compromise with...

Allowing them any compromise at all means we will be complicit in what they do as a result. And nothing they do will be good.

[Every Man A King]

129. Why would you behead them

instead of imprison for life?

[Peacetrain]

199. What kind of question is that? Behead? Prison for those who have

killed yes, life yes.

[Hippo_Tron]

64. To play devil's advocate, do you think we should invade Saudi Arabia?

Because their treatment of women is certainly pretty damn close to the Taliban.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

70. We are already in Afghanistan...

We are not already in Saudi Arabia. And we didn't go in to Afghanistan to help the people, although it certainly was a side benefit of having done it. We went because they were supportive of the organization that killed 3000 of our people on our own soil.

The question isn't about going in, it's about the result of leaving. If we leave, the Taliban will completely take over all of it, and that cannot be allowed to happen. We can be absolutely sure of what they will do to the Afghani people once we leave.

[Every Man A King]

122. So after we kill all the Taliban

we can invade Saudi Arabia right??? right???

[JeffreyWilliamson]

139. I never advocated killing all the Taliban...

I only advocate pushing them back and helping the Afghani's build a future for themselves.

I strongly believe, that when people are given opportunity, a chance to better themselves, and hope for the future, that religious fundamentalism has less chance to grab hold of the population. Witness northern Europe, where prosperity and quality of life is not rivaled, and in those same nations religious belief is at its lowest. The terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan hold sway over the population by manipulating their religious beliefs. There is a reason for this. Increase education, increase quality of life, give hope, and animosity towards outsiders falls away.

And, once again, at this point, it's a question of what happens when we leave, not a question of whether or not we should go in.

[leftynyc]

171. First I'd try diplomacy

I'd let Hillary have a crack at them. That's one of the reasons I was so in favor of her as SOS. She'll put womens rights on the table every day.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

89. Benefits to women's rights similar or slightly lower, costs much higher, so no.

Regime change in Saudi Arabia would be a good thing. Not quite as good as getting rid of the Taliban, but - if the incoming regime were better, which of course it wouldn't be - still a very good thing.

The costs in terms of civilian casualties, international destabilisation etc would be far higher than in Afghanistan, though. And the chance of setting up a decent state in Afghanistan, while slim, is less negligable than in Saudi Arabia.

So the cost/benefit calculation is very different.

[ieoeja]

268. The answer to that lies in another question.

Why was the Taliban executing tens of thousands of women a year, but Saudi Arabia and Iran a few dozen at most?


Saudi Arabia doesn't execute young girls for disobeying Sharia. They don't even execute or mutilate adult women for every minor violations. The adult women of that country have been raised in that culture and have an infrastructure to support them within the limits imposed upon them by those laws.


Conversely, for decades a young female lawyer with no family might get off work, change into a mini-skirt and run off to the disco with her friends hoping to find some man she'd like to make lucky for the evening. Then an Islamic theocracy took power.

One of her girlfriends was executed for disobeying a law she didn't know existed.

Another of her girlfriends was executed for sneaking outside by herself. She knew the law, but she had no male family members in Kabul and had run out of food. The Taliban made no allowances for this circumstance.

Finally, she herself is executed because, after a lifetime of freedom, she just - could - not - live like this.

[Hippo_Tron]

279. I'm not entirely sure the situation in Afghanistan is like that

While the Taliban only came to power in the late 90's but much of the period before that was warring factions, kind of like what is going on right now. Women might have had rights in some areas but probably not in many.

Iran would seem to be a place where your scenario might have been more likely to play out because they have a long tradition of secular government. The problem, though, is that the population is very young and the vast majority weren't alive before 1979. I think the same is true of Afghanistan and most of the population did not live during the PDPA era.

Iraq is actually probably where your scenario fits best. Women did have rights under Saddam. Now their rights depend on the regional warlord.

[ieoeja]

283. I might have overdid it a bit. But I got the gist of it right.

You are correct that it was a regional thing. In Kabul they had a lot of freedoms. In Kandahar, not so much.

http://www.afghan-web.com/woman/afghanwomenhistory.html

Basically, from 1901 until the Taliban took over their rights were increased steadily (except 1929 through 1933). Some pre-Communist highlights:

. 1941: First secondary female school was established in Kabul.
. 1959: Women were allowed to unveil, and the wives of the ruling family, and senior government officials appeared unveiled at public functions, and soon others followed. No revolts in Kabul occurred over this, however, a revolt did occur in Kandahar, and roughly 60 people were killed as a result. The revolt was eventually suppressed by the government.
. 1964: The constitution gave women the right to vote, and allowed them to enter politics.
. 1965: The Democratic Organization of Afghan Women (DOAW) was formed. DOAW worked against illiteracy, forced marriages and bride prices.
. 1968 (April 20th): Queen Soraya passed away in exile in Rome, Italy.
. 1972: Zohra Yusuf Daoud was crowned as the first Miss Afghanistan. There was no swimsuit competition, however, there was an evening gown competition.

[Hippo_Tron]

284. I think that's basically the case

The Taliban probably drastically changed life for women in Kabul but not so much in other places. But as I said the problem now is that the population is very young and don't remember life before the warlord period.

[LittleBlue]

67. You're telling us why they're terrible. We know that.

The Viet Cong did terrible things, also.

There are groups just as terrible that exist in the world; Mugabe's ZANU-PF, for example.

But we do not have the moral authority to impose our own government on the world. It is up to those people to overthrow their oppressors. The Taliban, for instance, enjoys popular support in the south. Are we to brainwash them? This is an utter waste of resources in the pursuit of nothing.

[Number23]

71. That's a good point. And the Taliban is just one problem in Afghanistan

The warlords are an even bigger threat as they are comfortably ensconced in just about every power structure in Afghanistan, including the government.

I personally believe that the Taliban should be thoroughly eliminated, but I agree that the U.S. and its allies are not the police of the entire world. Much work has been done in Afghanistan with NGO's and other groups to try to build a grassroots effort to improve education and women's rights there. There's even work being done there to try to get farmers growing poppies for opium to convert those crops to "legal" drugs such as morphine.

[cali]

72. The Viet Cong did not do anything like what the Taliban did

it's absurd to compare the two. And we have an obligation to Afghanistan that we simply don't have to Zimbabwe. I'm not saying we should do it ourselves, but we need to help rebuild Afghanistan. And no, the Taliban does not enjoy popular support.

[LittleBlue]

73. Yes, they did

"Upon taking control of the bomb-ravaged country, the Vietnamese communists banned all other political parties, arrested public servants and military personnel of the Republic of Vietnam and sent them to reeducation camps."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Vietnam

When the war was over, the VC became the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. Around 1 million people were sent to reeducation camps.

[Peacetrain]

77. That comparison does not work.. The Viet Cong were a political group..

They did harsh things, but the comparison would be the Nazis.. Now if you can show me where the VC blinded children with acid in their faces because they found it against their "bastridized" version of a religion by just trying to go to school..or and entire sex, the women are burned or beaten beheaded for laughing at the wrong time or talking too loud.. your rationalization does not work

[backscatter712]

78. I'd say the Taliban are up there with the Khmer Rouge.

The Khmer Rouge made the VC look like Mother Teresa. They killed anyone wearing eyeglasses for the crime of being "intellectual".

[Peacetrain]

83. Khmer Rouge .. yep

[Joe Chi Minh]

88. And the West thought it best to let him die in his bed. A free man to the last.

Strange, after such torrents of tears - crocodile tears, as it turned out.

Do you think perhaps your prison gulag in the US suggests a harsh regime? Ruining lives, families, children's family security, often on grotequely trivial convictions? Then economically persecuting them on their release. Usually the very people who can least afford to suffer economic persecution. Paying for their own psychological assessments, parole monitoring, what have you? And evidently, all to the profit of private companies, their directors and shareholders. Do you not consider that inquitous.

[Every Man A King]

109. Ironically enough who stopped the Khmer Rouge?

Socialist Vietnam.

[cali]

82. you really need to read some history other than wiki - and even

what you posted does NOT make your case. The Viet Cong were a resistance group. Not true of the Taliban who are religious fundamentalists. The Viet Cong fought for the liberation of their country. Again not true of the Taliban.

It's about as lousy a comparison as you could have come up with.

[LittleBlue]

86. One man's liberation is another man's fundamentalism

It just so happens that in this part of the world, much of the population is fanatically religious. That is why your policy has been a failure, and that is why it will ultimately fail.

Do you really think building schools is going to change their religious beliefs? If we're going to wait for that, we'll be here 50 years waiting for the old guard to die so that the people who attend our schools can grow up and rule.

[cali]

91. oh codswallop

conflating the worst of religious fundamentalism with people who formed a political opposition to an invading force, is absurd.

And no one is talking about changing the religious beliefs of Afghans. The Taliban do NOT represent the beliefs of the vast majority of Afghan. They ruled by terror and force.

[Every Man A King]

108. Re-educatin camps are temporary

and no one is killed. We have them in Iraq, but we put 13 year olds in them too.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

90. Strongly disagree.

If you can help people overthrow their oppressors at a cost lower than the benefit, you should do so. Getting rid of a bad regime and replacing it with a better one is not (necessarily - obviously it can be) imposing your own government on people.

External intervention to overthrow the ZANU-PF would be a good thing if it could work at an acceptable cost in terms of lives, money, destabilisation etc (I don't think military intervention can, but I'm hopeful political pressure from/via Africa may).

[Zynx]

260. Sometimes it is very difficult for a population to overthrow their oppressors.

I don't buy the argument that because a dictatorship is in power that the people have implicitly chosen it. That's ridiculous and certainly not a liberal position.

[backscatter712]

75. I've been very anti-war with regards to Iraq, but with Afghanistan, I'm pro-war.

We can't work the Taliban - they drank their religious Kool-Aid and are totally and violently irrational.

We have to kill them.

Use bombs, use drones, use missiles. use boots on the ground with rifles. Do whatever it takes to kill those barbaric bastards.

War is hell, but contrary to popular belief, there are a few things in this world that are actually worse than war. The Taliban are among them.

Kill them, and don't be the least bit sorry about it.

[leftstreet]

79. OMG OMG OMG "We have to kill them."

DU is just on steroids today!

[Zhade]

93. Ever heard of a fair trial?

NT!

[Posteritatis]

140. Heaven knows the Taliban haven't (nt)

[ShortnFiery]

100. Many of the Taliban ARE the people of Afghanistan - it's up to THEM not US to weed them out of

their society.

"Kill them, and don't be the least bit sorry about it."

What? Do you mean "bomb them into The Stone Age" like we did (KILL) to 2 million Vietnamese without success?!?

That's unequivocally the most VILE and IGNORANT statement I have ever read here on DU.

Yeah, that'll work for the babies, children and women of Afghanistan. :eyes:

[gaspee]

92. I think if I were

born an Afghani woman, I would become a serial killer and kill every single man I could.

I wonder what gender the people saying leave Afghanistan to the Taliban are? Hmmm... I wonder.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. I'm all for the people of Afghanistan killing the Taliban as much as they want.

And I understand that the Taliban are totally fucked in the head. However, they seem to have broad support within the Pashtun regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan and I don't think that trying to eliminate them is going to result in fewer dead women and children, instead it will result in far more dead women and children. You and others here are proposing saving the Pashtun women of the region from the horrors of Taliban rule by killing the Pashtun women in larger numbers than the Taliban could manage to do. Of course you don't see it that way, you all think there is some way to use military force to keep the Taliban out without killing large numbers of civilians, most of whom will be women and children. I have no idea why you all are suffering under this delusion, but I suggest you go find a recent similar war, where the majority of casualties were not civilians. I'll wait.

So I am suggesting that perhaps we should find another way to deal with this issue, one that does not require a foreign occupying army killing brown people for not obeying orders and not behaving the way we think is proper.

[Every Man A King]

130. How do you think you would feel if you were born

in the Gaza Strip?

[gaspee]

285. I'd most likely

Be a member of Hamas.

I have a very strong personality. I used to beat up bullies when I was a child. I stick up for myself. If I were born somewhere where I was expected to allow myself to be treated badly, I don't think I would take it quietly.

[Danger Mouse]

97. I agree that the Taliban cannot be allowed to control Afghanistan.

So what do we do?

[ShortnFiery]

98. "The Women" in Afghanistan think of the USA are POURING salt in their wounds.

http://www.rawa.org/index.php

Neither the US nor Jehadies and Taliban: Long Live the Struggle of Independent and Democratic Forces of Afghanistan!

As we have declared many times, the US government has no and will not have any genuine concern for the condition of freedom, democracy and women’s rights in Afghanistan. It is ready to accept a more corrupt, destructive and anti-democratic government than the one in power now, provided that its stooges are the rulers. Therefore today, some top criminals are being consistently freed from the prison. This clearly shows that “democracy” and “freedom of women” do not hold even an iota of value for the US administration and its allies in Afghanistan. They are planning to install a government made up of Talib and Gulbuddini criminals; Khalqi and Parchami Quislings; lackeys of the blood thirsty Iranian regime from the “National Front”; and some other reactionary and treasonous elements related to the intelligence services of the West, so that even without direct military presence they would be able to control the country and save the country from becoming Iraq where the people rose against the US forces and its allies. If the US argues that it has not committed treachery, with the establishment of a government woven of the dirtiest enemies in the history of Afghanistan, they have committed the biggest possible treason against the Afghan nation, and they will not be able to justify this with any kinds of fabrications and cheatings.

Forgetting their foremost duty of giving awareness, a portion of the intellectuals of our country are engaged in shameful deeds of creating and igniting the ethnic, religious and linguistic differences among people on which the occupations are pouring fuel too. Some have taken this to such a level of disgrace that they believe the Taliban to be the rescuing forces; and the band of the murderers and agents of the “National Front”, and the groups attached to the US and NATO to be the sources of prosperity.

snip

RAWA strongly believes that there should be no expectation of either the US or any other country to present us with democracy, peace and prosperity. Our freedom is only achievable at the hands of our people. It is the duty of all the intellectuals, all the democratic forces and progressive and independence-seeking people to rise in a constant and decisive struggle for independence and democracy by taking the support of our wounded people as the independent force, against the presence of the US and its allies and the domination of Jehadi and Taliban criminals. Combating against the armed and alien forces in the country without being loud-mouthed against the Talibi and Jehadi enemies would mean welcoming the misfortunes of fascism and religious mafia. Also, struggling against this enemy without fighting the military presence of the US, its allies and its puppet government would mean falling before foreign agents. The path of the freedom-fighters of our country without doubt, will be very complex, difficult and bloody; but if our demand is to be freed from the chains of the slavery of foreigners and their Talib and Jehadi lackeys, we should not fear trial or death to become triumphant.

[Skip Intro]

99. I have no doubt as to what you say, but I wonder

where is oppression the greatest in the world, is it the middle east, or are we just focused on that region of the world because, well because, that is where our attention has been directed by those in power who have other priorities?

yes, we should rescue, liberate, the women of Afghanistan, because we have a moral obligation to do so

but that is not why we are there, no more than we went into Iraq to liberate the people there

I'm sorry for using your important and valuable thread to ask such questions, but I feel such questions should be asked

If liberating the oppressed is our motivation, then surely there are other people in as much need of liberating

don't ask me who they are, I just find it hard to justify one of bush's wars simply because power in the US has changed hands

there must be a better route to such change than dropping bombs on the people we should be liberating

[ShortnFiery]

101. The Military Industrial Complex will HAVE it's areas to set off bombs. They will have constant ...

Conflict.

This is all being ginned up by some very powerful entities within our Corporate controlled Military Industrial Complex.

They MUST continue to produce those bombs and pretty weapons.

They'll use ANY RATIONALE to continue the KILLING. :nuke:

[Skip Intro]

102. Question for you.

What do you think Israel's influence/leadership is in the effort you speak of?

[ShortnFiery]

103. That's a loaded (pun not intended) question.

;) To be serious, I don't wish to venture a guess. Suffice to say that "The Weapons Industry" is VERY LUCRATIVE VENTURE for both USA and Israeli Corporations.

[Skip Intro]

104. yeah

it was a loaded question, one shies away from asking and one shies away from answering

yet I think the complete picture cannot be seen without it

it can't be as simple, and obscene, as dollars/pofit can it?

My God.

What is really going on?

[zulchzulu]

105. Any group of people who behead those who don't follow them are simply human vermin

Those that are so caught up in their religious views that they feel they can torture, behead and kill innocent people who don't follow their bastardized set of rules are vermin. Like rats or any type of pestilence that might endanger the rest of humanity, they are merely to be exterminated, disposed of and made an example of to anyone that thinks they are "the answer".

A Taliban follower would want to be behead someone like me. I like music, I'm not religious, I like to dance, I like to drink, I like to eat pork, I like to have fun... for that, I am their enemy. And for that reason, I would want to stop them in their tracks before they try to stop me. It's that simple.

The Taliban are human filth. Filth is to be disposed of. Period.

If they want to stay in their country and kill each other off, I gladly wish that. If they want to train to kill and try to kill innocent people, then the sharp sword of justice slashing their throats and destruction of their existence from this planet is the only solution.

[BzaDem]

106. Edit

wrong thread

[Every Man A King]

111. OMG we created the Taliban to fight the Soviets

Do any of the psedo Neo-cons on this thread know anything about history. The choice to support these forces duirng Soviet occupation led directly to Taliban rule.

[BzaDem]

112. And what exactly does this have to do with what we should do now?

[Every Man A King]

125. My point is History matters

The decision to empower and train Islamic fundies had repercussions that cannot be undone by drones and bombs.

[BzaDem]

126. Care to explain why? Or are you just going to continue to make empty pronouncements?

I mean, thank you very much for letting me know that "history matters," I actually thought history didn't matter. :crazy:

[Skip Intro]

128. shhhh! nt

[JeffreyWilliamson]

133. You could just as easily make the argument that we should clean up after our mistake. N/T

[alwysdrunk]

143. That isn't really true. We created the Mujahadeen, a different group

The Taliban came later. There main goal is a hyper conservative Islamic state, not a fight against a foreign power.

[Every Man A King]

107. So you are basically a Neo-Con n/t

[BzaDem]

113. So you are basically the opposite of a Neo-Con

except that you probably wouldn't consider yourself a follower of Ron Paul, who in foreign policy, is essentially the opposite of what you probably consider to be a Neo-Con.

Just showing you how your naive argument-by-labels is self-defeating and stupid.

[Warren Stupidity]

149. Ron Paul's foreign policy position and mine are very similar.

Our military should be used to defend our borders, and in cooperation with other peaceful nations, defend the planet's trade routes. We need give up our empire.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

120. No, neocons advocate reshaping the world for America's interests alone...

Humanitarian's view bettering others' lives because they realize that all people have a greater chance to succeed when they are not living under oppression, poverty, torture, and abuse. And when those people have a greater chance to succeed, humanity itself has a greater chance to succeed.

Neocon = We protect our own interests at all costs.

Humanitarian = We are only as great as the least of us.

[ShortnFiery]

151. What is humanitarian about bombing the countryside to kibbles and bits and bits and bits? ...

How does that help the standing of women? We are so chickenshit that we make alliances with EVEN MORE CORRUPT faction tribes of this NARCO state ... who repress the women AS MUCH as the Taliban.

We need to stop the damn nation building.

THIS IS WRONG! :nuke:

[JeffreyWilliamson]

166. Can't disagree with you at all there.

We most definitely do need to rework our foreign policy from the ground up. And we shouldn't forget that our little proxy wars with the Soviets caused a lot of this in the first place.

We kind of did arm Saddam ourselves, and also helped the rebels in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion. These directly led to the events that we are faced with today.

We also need a change in tactics. Anonymously bombing villages seems pretty stupid.

I do think that we can change these things and still support humanitarian efforts with our military. I'm not sure I am willing to qualify removing the Taliban from power as nation building, although that is one of the results. I'm willing to say that because I know what they are all about. I don't know if I'd qualify them as a government as much as I would a fear machine.

[Every Man A King]

119. Still shocked at this thread

your username and sig picture are truly Orwellian considering your views.

[BzaDem]

123. Don't worry, I'm sure there are more people shocked that people like you call themselves Democrats.

Count me in.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

124. You should not be shocked at this thread, you whould welcome it....

I have never been more welcomed, or more challenged, than when I discovered DU. This thread is a perfect example of it, and a perfect example of why DU is important.

There is not a single person here who I disagree with that I would not sit beside and share a drink.

All disagreements aside, I would rather spend my evenings with the people here, hashing it out, than anywhere else.

We only learn from one another when we disagree.

[dbmk]

142. In light of your obvious disagreement

How would you have ousted the Taliban from power?

[ShortnFiery]

148. Yes, as difficult as it is, WE, The American Empire, must let THE NATIVES work out their problems

without AN OCCUPYING FORCE. :thumbsdown:

DAMN, we (USA Military Industrial Complex) are so arrogant that we believe tinkering with THOUSANDS of years of culture and DIVERSE LANGUAGES, we, the GOD ALMIGHTY USA Military and *fix their tribal differences* .... TO INCLUDE THE TREATMENT OF WOMEN.

The foregoing is just INSANE. Have we learned nothing from The Vietnam War?!?

In the short term, in general, the women are SCREWED. However, at least more of their babies and shelters would be intact if THE INVADERS AND OCCUPIERS leave (save for political and social services support) and let the locals sort out the mess.

[cali]

152. sigh. what a crock of canned bullshit

In the short term, in general, the women are SCREWED. However, at least more of their babies and shelters would be intact if THE INVADERS AND OCCUPIERS leave (save for political and social services support) and let the locals sort out the mess.


Absolutely fucking false. There would be NO shelters and a higher rate of infant mortality if we just left. Period. And we know that from the prior reign of the Taliban. And sorry, but the social service providers can't do their work without military protection. duh.

[ShortnFiery]

154. No, TRUE. We are creating more enemies than we are killing. JUST LIKE VIETNAM!

Those who deny history are doomed to repeat it.

Wake the fuck up Cali. It's not that SIMPLISTIC. There are dozens of tribal factions and ALL of them are corrupt and, to some extent, repress women.

Women enjoy a higher standing in an ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY. Therefore, as we continue to bomb the shit out of tribal areas while allowing General "Peaches" Petraeus to make CORRUPT ALLIANCES with *stooges* who will support us for $, we are just creating OUR OWN (USA's thugs) version of your so called NAZI TALIBAN, American Style. :puke:

[cali]

156. oh please.

I've actually read quite a bit about Afghanistan. And yes, it's largely a tribal society with competing tribal interests and the attendant power struggles, but abandoning Afghanistan is not the right answer. Read Ahmed Rashid's book on why we've failed and what the possible solutions are. A truly multinational approach with an emphasis on rebuilding and providing an array of services is not imperialism. Can it be dcne? Maybe. Oh, and I highly suggest you read Rashid's book on the Taliban, published in 2000. Invaluable source book.

Grab a clue and educate yourself. You have never exhibited so much as a shred of critical thinking. It's sad.

[ShortnFiery]

158. We would not be ABANDONING Afghanistan, but we must NOT be an Occupying Force.

That's so arrogant ... how did it work out for The British in the early 1900? ... how did it work out for The Soviets in the 1970s?

We must extract our MILITARY force out of Afghanistan and support the POSITIVE changes via funding and humanitarian support.

It's a messy and LEAST WORST solution but staying in there and allowing the CORRUPT "anything that works" Petraueus continue to form EVEN MORE horrid NARCO alliances, the plight of women will not change and we will go broke, not unlike The Soviets, after a decade of vacillation.

[ShortnFiery]

159. p.s. there's no need for the personal insults but that's so much of your MO it's almost passe.

:(

[cali]

160. LOL. Yes, your "wake the fuck up, Cali:" isn't an insult at all.

hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance? And sorry, though I'm sure you're a nice person, I have little patience with the type of canned ideology you dish out here.

[ShortnFiery]

161. "Wake the Fuck Up" is not near as insulting as calling my opinion "a crock of canned bullshit"

"Canned ideology" as you put is is called "HISTORY."

I'd appreciate if you'd read up on it before you "get nasty" and attack another's perspective.

p.s. I didn't resort to "WTFU" comment until after your comment. Yes, you do have the knack of bringing out the worst in me. I'm sorry. :hi:

[cali]

162. That would be a matter of opinion, dear.

And I have two Masters in the field. How about you?

And sorry, but I've really come to find your posts a predictable bore.

Good luck to you. I won't be responding to you anymore in this thread.

[ShortnFiery]

165. I'll see your two masters and raise you Intelligence, Military Science & one masters in the field.

:eyes: <jerking each other off now?>

However, all the degrees and life experiences are inconsequential ... if you want the answers to many important questions, start with following the money.

[MadHound]

153. So what should we do? Bomb, bomb, bombs away!

Kill thousands of innocents to try and kill hundreds of Taliban? Hmm, we've tried that tactic before and it hasn't worked out to well. Let's try a novel approach, you know, something non-military.

[ShortnFiery]

157. Presently: The USA occupiers and "the Taliban" are the NAZIs with "the AFGHAN people"

are "The Jews" caught in the middle of EMPIRE-WAR LORD lovely NARCO greased ENDLESS WAR. :puke:

[JeffreyWilliamson]

167. Nice pictures...

Are you seriously equating our forces in Afghanistan with the actions of the Taliban towards its own people?

Here's a little of what the Taliban has been getting up to lately in Pakistan:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/asia/25swat.html?ref=world

[cali]

170. don't bother

it's truly not worth arguing with ideologues.

[ShortnFiery]

172. You're precious. You promise to not respond to me, but by proxy give another "rabbit punch."

Really cali, you are the "most predictable" between the two of us.

What's sad is that if we get over our resentments, we probably have much more in common than either one of us is willing to admit.

Have a good day ... dear. ;) :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

174. Hello? Afghanistan is not one dimensional and neither is the Taliban, who are ... AFGHANI.

Believe it or not, Afghan women are NATIONALISTS. They do not want the God Almighty USA making unholy alliances with equally corrupt NARCO state warlords just so they can turn out to be "our thugs." Such FIXES is not going to improve the standing of Afghani Citizens in general not to mention WOMEN specifically.

It's my beloved country doing this bombing so - I want it to STOP. Every time our "smart bombs" kill innocent women and children, it's a stain on our moral authority.

Yes, even if we don't target innocents, that doesn't make them less dead OR their family members less resentful. :shrug:

[Blomst]

176. Thank for posting the article

It was helpful, for balance. I am also concerned about the destabilization that keeps spreading into wider areas of Pakistan and what it entails for the stability of the region.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

179. The situation in Pakistan is not good...

The military does not appear to care to enforce the peace within their own borders, and government seems powerless.

Pakistan is in danger of gradually being overrun by its own militants. If the Pakistani government doesn't get it in gear we may be forced to eventually drop what we're doing and go in there to secure their nuclear weapons.

That would get real ugly on us very quickly if we went in there.

[ShortnFiery]

181. That's why the USA needs to make like a sheepherder and "get the flock" out of the entire ME.

:thumbsup:

Occupying armies only foment resistance and continued terrorism.

The foregoing is a FACTUAL statement proven repeatedly through history since the beginning of humankind.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

185. With the exceptions of Germany and Japan, right?

The problem with Pakistan is that we may end up having to go in if it collapses. And it's well on its way.

We can debate the Taliban and what should be done with them all day, but can anyone imagine what would happen if the Taliban managed to get a hold of a nuclear stockpile? Granted that's a long shot as it stands now, but I don't even want to imagine the possibility and what that would mean.

I'M SERIES!!1!!11!

[ShortnFiery]

187. Apples and Oranges. Germany and Japan were homogeneous societies who had formally ...

SURRENDERED. Before the war they both had significant numbers of educated citizens.

The intelligence of the good citizens of both Afghanistan and Pakistan are equal to ours (of course, they're fellow humans) BUT their past has not nurtured their quality of life and/or educational opportunities.

We have a greater chance of influencing Pakistani society because they have "an educated class" who will listen to reason and help build on democratic institutions.

However, until we flush out all the dark areas of corruption within the NARCO and TRIBAL state of Afghanistan, I fear that the average Afghani citizen will look to their local "warlords" for support.

Remember on "Maslow's Hierarch of Needs" the BASE or foundation of that pyramid places BASIC physiological needs as priority over that for SAFETY and security. When you are living in abject poverty, you will FOLLOW and SUPPORT the man who promises you a meal and shelter DESPITE the fact that he beats you once a week.

[Aloha Spirit]

189. The Afghani diaspora is rich with educated people who would like to return to their homeland.

Another point worth making is, it's not simply an issue of lack of education, but also of those schools that are being funded by bad people.
I guess the thing is, if we leave, it won't be the locals sorting out their problems.
The foreigners are there stepping on them and will be there for a long time if we withdraw.
I am glad I don't have to decide what to do.

[ShortnFiery]

190. Cue "Chalibi" ... they are no longer Afghani. It would be like when we and the Brits

installed "The Shah of Iran." The wealthy, educated class would turn into "ROYALTY." Words can not describe how much resentment that would create among the tribal peoples.

The Wealthy and Educated ex-patriots could "run KABUL" but the rest of Afghanistan will continue to be ruled by the warlords.

NOT a good idea. :nuke:

The atrocities of The Shah's secret police force are a good part of the reason that IRAN continues to resent us (American Empire) today.

[ShortnFiery]

191. Define "bad people?" We don't have any pure "good people" at the table - creating our own THUGS

will only breed MORE resentment.

[Peacetrain]

202. Resentment because they are being called out for their

brutalization of women? They can resent till the cows come home. They can believe in the great spaghetti monster for all I care, but they do not have the right, to burn, maim, kill, restrict women from health care, take out all their hatred and anxiety on one half the population.

Besides, terror is being used against the men as well. To keep them in line so these cretins can regain power. This is not a government but a group of theological thugs. The UN should be in there, and to our great shame as countries united, we have ignored the brutalization of the women of Afghanistan from the onslaught of the Tali's power grab.

Just to throw up our hands and say, oh so sad, too bad, they were just born to be brutalized.

Can't we even stomach up enough courage, to take it back to the UN again?

[ShortnFiery]

204. No, RESENTMENT because foreigners occupy their land. Nationalization trumps safety.

See Maslow's Hierarchy of needs above.

I seriously DOUBT that the over-riding desire of these ex-patriots is to improve the living standards of the tribal people BUT to line their own pockets and give them more power within their FORMER country.

These ex-patriots will NOT be embraced as Afghanis if we are guided by history.

The treatment of WOMEN is a symptom of the underlying "cancer of corruption" within the NARCO State of Afghanistan.

p.s. First, the solutions require the arduous task of shutting down the NARCO trade. That will be nothing short of a miracle. There are no GOOD solutions but The Worst Case Scenario is for the Almighty US and UN to go in there and occupy this Country.

[Peacetrain]

208. I know Maslows Hierarchy.. and that is exactly my point.

There has to be a base of safety, basic needs, that a UN presence could give people so that they would have a chance to find their own voice. How the Afghanistan government would be, is not like that American government, and most rational people understand that.

But to idly sit by while half the population is brutalized and hope things work out in 40 years is mind boggling.

The fact that we did not back up the Afghani government but went into Iraq, left the Tali's to scurry like rats into Pakistan and now try to come back into power in Afghanistan.

These are theological thugs brutalizing an entire people.

The best case scenario at this point is that the UN will go in there.

The worst case is to let the cancer eat the country up again, and to blindly turn our backs like cowards on the women of Afghanistan.

[ShortnFiery]

212. So you are going to go into every rural tribal area and tell them what's what?

No, you won't. You'll support General "Peaches" Petraeus's continuing UNHOLY ALLIANCES with equally corrupt warlords to the Taliban.

They will treat women just as shabbily but, they'll be OUR (loyal to the USA) THUGS ... and really, that's all we want. :(

I know it's hard to digest but "The Taliban" are "Afghanis" and the women choose them over US.

It's called NATIONALISM.

[Peacetrain]

213. The women choose them over us? what are you talking about?

[ShortnFiery]

217. The Taliban are their husbands, brothers and children. They are Afghani. We need to encourage ch

change WITHIN their society. You can only change their society through political not military solutions.

[Peacetrain]

196. Who is saying bomb bomb bomb away but you?

[mrs_p]

173. i completely agree with you

but i don't think an endless war there will help them. i'm thinking we should establish underground tunnels to get all women and children out of there - give them amnesty or something like that in other countries - and leave the taliban men to themselves

[ShortnFiery]

175. The women and children LOVE their COUNTRY. First and foremost, they want the invaders out.

The Taliban is AFGHANI and their sons. It's not so simplistic and the USA is not All-Powerful as an occupying force. We are creating more terrorists than we are killing by remaining in that Nation.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

177. This Afghani woman must be so very proud of their Taliban sons...

http://www.rawa.us/movies/beating.mpg

[ShortnFiery]

178. No, they are not. The solution(s) are horrid and less horrid ones for the good women of Afghanistan

:( :cry:

[JeffreyWilliamson]

180. Oh I definitely agree with you there...

The Afghani people are on the whole in a lose-lose situation here. It's a sick state of affairs.

[ShortnFiery]

184. It's painful to watch and realize that it's not going to improve much for decades to come.

Change in that part of the world will not come easy nor in a short period of time.

The new alliances that General Petraeus is forming may mature to become almost as corrupt as the present TALIBAN.

We know from personal experience as well as from studying our political science, without checks, POWER CORRUPTS.

These Nations can't nurture a democratic government without an educated middle class. Until they can raise the standard of living for their own tribal populations, their RULE will be CORRUPT with or without our (multi-national forces) involvement.

WE WANT to help, but our interventions could create more harm. :shrug:

[endarkenment]

183. and the problem is that quite a lot of them are quite proud

of their taliban sons, and you can't deal with that.

[Marrah_G]

220. I highly doubt that.

[Marrah_G]

218. Those women don't have any say in ow their sons turn out

They are nothing more then slaves to be bred and worked in silence, beaten, raped, bought, sold, mutilated, killed, invisible to the world.

[ShortnFiery]

221. And we're going to save them from THEIR OWN PEOPLE?

[endarkenment]

248. yeah we are going to kill all their sons

and that will be good for them.

Some of the people here might want to read up on how the Taliban came to power last time and think about why they might be gaining ground now.

[Zynx]

261. The Taliban is not and never was reflective of the majority of the Afghan people.

I would really like someone to prove to me that they were. Everything I saw was to the contrary. They were representative of part of the Afghan people, but not all.

[Odin2005]

186. The Taliban are a bunch of theocratic totalitarian monsters that need to be crushed.

I support completely President Obama's policies in Afghanistan. If the Naive Pacifists want to whine and bitch about it they can F*** off. The Naive Pacifist contingent on DU remind of of the people that wanted us to stay out of WW2.

[ShortnFiery]

188. Yes, kill a raghead (Afghani) or gook (Vietnamese) for JESUS! That's the way.

:sarcasm: :crazy:

[Odin2005]

192. I'm an Atheist.

But thanks for assuming I want a Crusade. :eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

194. For an Atheist, you've seemingly are all for "this quest" into oblivion.

The Taliban's neighbors in Pakistan have NUKES. :evilgrin:

[Odin2005]

271. And I DON'T want such weapons in the hands of the Taliban.

They are fanatics who wouldn't hesitate to use them.

[Peacetrain]

197. So the tribal women of Afghanistan, the little girls with acid thrown in their faces

are not worthy, of shaming the UN into setting up a presence to protect them? If there was ever a place for the UN it is Afghanistan. The talis can believe anything they want, but they do not have the right to torture, kill, maim, because they have tied into some bastardized version of Islam. That is the same as the KKK using Christian symbols for their horror

[ShortnFiery]

207. You keep hyper-focusing on "the taliban" but our "smart bombs" actually KILL innocent babies and ...

The Afghani women will choose and stand by MEN who beat them (Taliban) because they also provide food and shelter for their children.

When people live in abject poverty, their most BASIC needs are paramount.

You want to improve the rights and standards of WOMEN, then lift up the ENTIRE COMMUNITIES within these tribal areas and stop focusing on "the evildoers" but consider these men human beings who do horrible things.

When I was a young woman, a former boyfriend threatened my life and stalked me. In Today's America, wives are being beaten by their husbands every damn day. Therefore, with respect, it's time for us "holier than thou" Americans to realize that we all are capable of IGNORING atrocities when it doesn't personally affect our lives.

Support the humane adjustments to the Afghani Society without either bombing them to kibbles and bits NOR occupying their nation.

It is only through THE PEOPLE (including the present Taliban) to change their society.

It's well past time to let go of the delusions of grandeur that "Empire" promises.

p.s. You want to attack a country that TORTURES it's own citizens? Let's take on CHINA? ... or Saudi Arabia? :crazy:

[Peacetrain]

209. This is a matter of basic "humanity" no one is calling for the bombing of innocents

Your statement :Therefore, with respect, it's time for us "holier than thou" Americans to realize that we all are capable of IGNORING atrocities when it doesn't personally affect our lives.

I do not even know where to begin with this. The Tali's are thugs, intent on brutalizing 1/2 their population to gain and keep power.

[ShortnFiery]

210. We'd immediately stop giving China "most favored nation status" if we truly cared for "humanity"

How hypocritical! But but but China holds our debt. What about Saudi Arabia who has "open the floodgates" on sending fighters to Iraq and Afghanistan? Oh no, they're part of OPEC.

No, we don't get to "pick and choose" which society is most inhumane on the bases of our on Personal Self-Interests and judge ourselves as "humane" instead of what we are = "HYPOCRITES."

Sure, we can continue to bomb and intervene, but don't say its for "humanity" or "women's rights" when it's ONLY for the benefit of our own Geopolitical Self Interest.

The women of Afghanistan don't believe for a New York minute that we genuinely care about their station in life. And they would be sadly correct. It's being USED as an excuse to use more of our mighty military and pretty weapons.

[Peacetrain]

211. You have an agenda that I am having a hard time following

So you are okay with the brutalization of women in Afghanistan?

[ShortnFiery]

215. Hyperbole does not become someone of such noted intelligence.

What I'm saying is that we will NOT improve the station of Women in Afghanistan by Occupying their sovereign nation. That to stay in this NARCO state will only foment more resentment, bombing, poverty and despair.

As much as it saddens me, I know that the USA is not "all powerful."

The good people of Afghanistan must SORT THIS OUT themselves. They should work with us and the international community to help raise-up their rural people. We must work in concert and not get involved in nation building.

[Odin2005]

274. I'm am all for revoking China's MFN status and slapping massive tarrifs on them.

The best way to get the Saudis to fuck off is to reduce and then eliminate out need for foreign oil.

Listen, I'm no war-monger. I think military force should be used only as a last resort, or when the UN isn't doing jack to stop genocide somewhere.

[Odin2005]

273. You can't reason with fanatics. The Taliban doesn't want economic development.

They want lock-step conformity with thier backwards religious ideology and the death of anyone who refuses to conform. They could care less about people's actual physical well-being.

The Taliban are not comparable to organizations like Hamas, Hizbullah, and the Muslim Brotherhood. Those groups are outgrowths of civil society that have turned militant in reaction to mistreatment, they can be reasoned with, they are not fanatics. The Taliban, on the other hand, are very different. They are essentially hyper-fanatics that we pretty much created as proxies to attack the Russians. We created these creeps, and now we need to get rid of them.

[anonymous171]

195. Christopher Hitchens? nt

[Odin2005]

270. I'm 22, so I'm a bit too young to be Hitchens.

:eyes:

[Bragi]

198. So who else should America attack?

If America wants to go to war everywhere that women are treated unequally, or even like cattle, then it will have to invade and occupy many Muslim nations. I for one am pleased that America can't afford to do this.

As for the war in Afghanistan, equality for women has been the PR rallying point for the last 8 years, but that isn't what this war is about. It's about an oil pipeline and geopolitical forces.

Once this war ends, the same crowd of Afghani religious fundamentalists, drug lords and tribal chieftains who have run the place for the last 200 years will continue to run the place.

And women in this poorest and most backward of countries will still be treated as cattle.

- B

[Peacetrain]

200. So that is it.. they were born into it.. tough luck on their part?

We are in there, and the UN who has turned their back on these women before should be shamed into having a presence there. Damn I cannot believe I am having the same argument with people I had 10 years ago.

[Mass]

201. The Taliban should be the nightmare of the Western world because they allowed it to happen.

They were way too busy fighting the Cold War and helping the Soviet ennemies in Afghanistan and elsewhere to care about who they enabled, and they enabled the Talibans, because they were opposed to the modernization the Soviet were preaching (not that the Soviet should have been there in the first place, but it is a different story).

So, my only hope is that, when it comes to intervene and help people, the Obama organization does its homework and understand what they are doing. It did not take a foreign policy PhD to understand what happened in Afghanistan was going to happen (in one form or another). So, while I hope the Taliban can never take power again, I would prefer that they sort that by themselves.

[Peacetrain]

203. I hope they do their homework also.. I hope they make a presentation

at the UN to show how desperate this situation is. I hope they shame the UN for turning their backs on the Afghani women, because we have tried before.

The Tali's are the KKK of the Islamic world. They terrorize the men as well as the women. But the women are fodder for their reigns of terror.

I am beside myself reading some of the posts, that seem to just say, oh well, their way. It is not the way of Islam. But it is the way, of a power hungry core group who are using religion to box in a group of people.

Who gives a rats behind about burkas and seven prayers a day.. but burnings and beheadings, , women being treated like less than cattle, to keep power?

It is something they DO need to sort themselves. That I agree with completely. But in order to do that, there has to be some sense of security for people. If ever, if ever, there were a place for the UN peacekeepers to be to let this happen, Afghanistan has got to be the place.

[Marrah_G]

219. They cannot sort it out for themselves

There is an imbalance of money and weapons. Also many years of fear, terror and torture. That is like suggesting that slaves in America should have remained slaves until they rose up and took back their freedom on their own.

They need the true support of the world to back them up. Many fear if they try to rise up and then America and the world leave before the Taliban are wiped out that they will pay dearly for it in the long run.

People have to do some real research into the plight of the Afgahni people so they can understand that it is not just a matter of the majority saying "we don't want Taliban rule anymore."

[bridgit]

205. When Mavis Leno used to talk about the plight of Afghan women...

You could almost hear people's brains grinding to a halt but it is a real deal; the Taliban are killers, thugs & murderers of men women & children, destroyers of worlds and all in the name of a prophet they would seem to understand even less http://www.carnegie.org/reporter/07/islam/mavis.html

[ShortnFiery]

222. And WE (the USA countering the Soviets in the 70s) CREATED THEM!

:evilgrin:

[bridgit]

224. The Taliban are responsible for their actions, 'taliban mindset' has been in the region...

for 1,000's of years before America was ever thought possible.

[ShortnFiery]

225. And Afghanistan is a sovereign country where we helped the early Taliban kick out the Soviets.

We can't have it BOTH WAYS.

We must not continue to occupy this country: It's the height of hypocrisy and hubris ... and we will LEAVE in DEFEAT ... after we are kicked-out.

Nationalism is all-powerful. The Taliban can hunker down and live in the most God-awful conditions. Like the Vietnamese, they have all the time in the world. They will wait us out ... and THEY WILL WIN.

[bridgit]

256. You're suggesting that because Afghanistan is a "sovereign country"...

that the Taliban, being a group operating within that sovereignty, then has carte blanche to murder people and drag their dead bodies behind Toyota pu trucks through common, open-air markets as symbols of what will happen when people deign to think contrary to their notions? Isn't that a bit like suggesting that because America is a "sovereign country" that Rev. Phelps and his goof-ball brigade are then afforded similar carte blanche to stone & burn people at the stake as they see fit?

Perhaps some day we'll be able to talk a bit about Darfur...but not today ~

[Peacetrain]

227. You find that humorous? NT

[ShortnFiery]

238. I find that a truism - dark humor that the very people/system we created we now wish to BLOW UP

instead of FIX through political/humanitarian means. Yeah, it's comical in a very dark and hypocritical way. :shrug:

[ensho]

206. we can't rest until there is some help for our sisters in Afghanistan

there are more women in the world then men

there are more women in the US then men

the power is there

[ShortnFiery]

214. The good women of Afghanistan do not want our help. We are their enemy.

RAWA strongly believes that there should be no expectation of either the US or any other country to present us with democracy, peace and prosperity. Our freedom is only achievable at the hands of our people. It is the duty of all the intellectuals, all the democratic forces and progressive and independence-seeking people to rise in a constant and decisive struggle for independence and democracy by taking the support of our wounded people as the independent force, against the presence of the US and its allies and the domination of Jehadi and Taliban criminals. Combating against the armed and alien forces in the country without being loud-mouthed against the Talibi and Jehadi enemies would mean welcoming the misfortunes of fascism and religious mafia. Also, struggling against this enemy without fighting the military presence of the US, its allies and its puppet government would mean falling before foreign agents. The path of the freedom-fighters of our country without doubt, will be very complex, difficult and bloody; but if our demand is to be freed from the chains of the slavery of foreigners and their Talib and Jehadi lackeys, we should not fear trial or death to become triumphant.

[ensho]

226. perhaps. however, there is a whiff of propaganda

nt

[ShortnFiery]

228. Not really, would you want help from an occupying power?

Look at all the women in THIS country who are beaten by their husbands YET do not file charges? These are their loved ones. They are men, human beings doing terrible things. They can be rehabilitated.

No, there's no propaganda here. They don't want our bombs killing their babies and husbands. Their first priority is to have food and shelter. Their second priority is to help kick out THE INVADING EMPIRE.

No, they don't want our MILITARY help. However, our political and humanitarian assistance would be greatly appreciated as THE NATIVES sort this out.

[ensho]

229. lol - sorry but your words are foolish

nt

[Peacetrain]

230. You are trying to compare the brutalization of women in this

country, as a reason we should accept systematize political abuse of women in another place? The women in this country can go to the authorities or their family and neighbors can go when the women themselves are so beaten down they cannot help themselves.

You are actually trying to compare the two. The women under the rule of the tali's have ZERO rights, and are killed for the crimes of the males. The males in their families can be killed for the perceived "sins of the woman" under the tali's

How do you know what they want? How can you speak for them as if this is how things should be because they were born into it, that they have children who are born into it, they they love their children, so they must accept that all women under the tali's are subject to being treated less than animals..

[ShortnFiery]

234. We are NOT an Empire. We helped create the brutal treatment of women by supporting the

Northern Alliance.

When you are ready to attack CHINA, a nation who systematically abuses it's populace and political prisoners, get back with me? :eyes:

The vast majority of Americans don't give a rat's ass about women's rights, they just wish to feel morally superior and control other parts of the world ... the military industrial complex is salivating over stirring up conflicts in this area.

Are you ready to sacrifice your children to be sucked into the intake of the Military Industrial Complex's war machine?

If so, just keep shedding these elephant tears for women, when in fact, we just want to CONTROL the world.

We don't have either the military might or will to do so.

If we commit military forces in Afghanistan ... We will FAIL!

[Peacetrain]

237. Elephant tears.. the term is crocodile.. you might want to update your phrase book

Once again, who is talking US military here, but you..

You are so wrong, the majority of Americans are women!

[ShortnFiery]

239. OK, correction - to - Crocodile tears. I am not wrong, this is for Military Might and it is VILE.

We can conduct humanitarian actions continuously without increasing our troop strength.

We need to pull our troops out of the Middle East soon, lest we will be sacrificing our children to the intake of the War Machine.

The foregoing you can BANK ON. ;)

[stillcool]

249. How can you say we are not an empire?

Challenges to the US Empire:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/challenges/challengesindex.htm

US Military Expansion and Intervention:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/index.htm

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/global/cj_int/cj_int1.html

Published on Thursday, January 15, 2004 by TomDispatch.com
America's Empire of Bases
by Chalmers Johnson
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-08.htm

As distinct from other peoples, most Americans do not recognize -- or do not want to recognize -- that the United States dominates the world through its military power. Due to government secrecy, our citizens are often ignorant of the fact that our garrisons encircle the planet. This vast network of American bases on every continent except Antarctica actually constitutes a new form of empire -- an empire of bases with its own geography not likely to be taught in any high school geography class. Without grasping the dimensions of this globe-girdling Baseworld, one can't begin to understand the size and nature of our imperial aspirations or the degree to which a new kind of militarism is undermining our constitutional order.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/g...
US Empire Will Survive Bush
By Arno J Mayer
Le Monde diplomatique
October 2008

The United States may emerge from the Iraq fiasco almost unscathed. Though momentarily disconcerted, the American empire will continue on its way, under bipartisan direction and mega-corporate pressure, and with evangelical blessings. It is a defining characteristic of mature imperial states that they can afford costly blunders, paid for not by the elites but the lower orders. Predictions of the American empire's imminent decline are exaggerated: without a real military rival, it will continue for some time as the world's sole hyperpower.

But though they endure, overextended empires suffer injuries to their power and prestige. In such moments they tend to lash out, to avoid being taken for paper tigers. Given Washington's predicament in Iraq, will the US escalate its intervention in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia or Venezuela? The US has the strongest army the world has ever known. Preponderant on sea, in the air and in space (including cyberspace), the US has an awesome capacity to project its power over enormous distances with speed, a self-appointed sheriff rushing to master or exploit real and putative crises anywhere on earth. In the words of the former secretary of defence, Donald Rumsfeld: "No corner of the world is remote enough, no mountain high enough, no cave or bunker deep enough, no SUV fast enough to protect our enemies from our reach."

The US spends more than 20% of its annual budget on defence, nearly half of the spending of the rest of the world put together. It's good for the big US corporate arms manufacturers and their export sales. The Gulf states, led by Saudi Arabia, purchase billions of dollars of state-of-the-art ordnance. Eyes and ears of a borderless empire

[ShortnFiery]

280. OK, in today's dire straights, we should NOT function as "An Empire."

Points well made. :thumbsup:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

232. Then go fight the Taliban on your own time and money.

Don't waste my tax dollars on your own doomed crusade.

[Peacetrain]

233. So the women of Afghanistan deserve no help from us..

We cannot even take their plight to the UN, the hell with them?

[ShortnFiery]

235. They don't want our help. Again, Nationalism trumps RULE of an Invading Empire. eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

236. Let's not pretend you're doing the women of Afghanistan any favors.

You realize that the puppet government the U.S. government has set up is just former Taliban officials who switched sides, right?

You do realize that?

[Peacetrain]

240. I have realized more than you can imagine right now.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

241. I don't think you realize squat.

[Peacetrain]

242. You are so wrong..

But let me ask you this, because you have tripped upon a cause of mine,

What to you is worth putting your strength and values behind?

If the plight of the Afghani women under the tali's. and the re-emergence of the tali's as a power cannot move you, then what does?

I am just thunderstruck at the rationalization I have been seeing in here for the treatment of the Afghani women under the tali rule.

The tali's are not the Afghanis, though Afghanis are tali's just for reference.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

244. The question is...

is their any issue you won't exploit for the sake of war-mongering?

You've already resorted to women's rights. Care to go for "protecting the children?"

[Peacetrain]

246. You obviously have not read my posts...show one post where I have advocated war, violence

You can't.. but go look..But you could not answer my questions.. that says more than anything.

Womens rights issues have been a life long crusade of mine. Protecting children, that was so interesting.. so little girls are not children? The whole point of my original op is protection of women and children.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

245. Thunderstruck...

It certainly has been interesting to watch, hasn't it?


"Leave Afghanistan immediately, we had NO justification for going there for ANY reason. The Taliban was NEVER involved in anything that ever harmed us."

"Just how many people are you willing to kill to free millions anyway?"

"The Afghanis are the Taliban, the Taliban is their family and they love them."

"The Afghanis don't care about their brutal treatment, they're more concerned with getting food/kicking us out."

"It's none of our business what happens to the women and children there, they'll sort it out, just like they were doing before we went."

"Wanting to stop systematic brutalization/torture/rape/murder/oppression is just an excuse for war-wongering."


This has been a real eye-opener.

[Peacetrain]

247. Eye opener to say the least!

[mrs_p]

252. yeah, i'm a little confused

what i've learned from this thread is that the women in afghanistan basically are to blame for the taliban rule - after all, they are their mothers, sisters, and daughters and want to be brutalized by the men of their country. also, the international community has no place in stepping in to protect them. last time i remember the international community not standing up to genocide, we had a million dead tutsis.

[endarkenment]

254. characterizing Afghanistan as a genocide is misplaced.

The Taliban are a brutal bunch of theocratic thugs, but that does not equate to genocide.

It is not a question of who is to blame for the Taliban, although to large extent, we are through our policies of the 80s, and our failed intervention after 2001. The question is what to do, and some of us here think that trying to de-talibanize Afghanistan through a military occupation is wrong and stupid and doomed. It is not that the women of Afghanistan are to blame, it is that the Taliban are their sons. Some of you here are proposing to exterminate - using the term 'vermin' in at least one case - essentially the entire Pashtun male population in order to prevent a genocide that doesn't exist and fail to see the tragic irony of that position. The Taliban problem is Afghanistan's problem. The people of Afghanistan have to sort this out themselves. Can we help them? Yes of course, but very carefully, understanding that military intervention either by proxy or directly will fail.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

255. Here's my issue...

It is not a question of who is to blame for the Taliban, although to large extent, we are through our policies of the 80s, and our failed intervention after 2001.

The people of Afghanistan have to sort this out themselves.

[endarkenment]

262. I'm sure you think you have a point.

It seems that perhaps you think those two statements are contradictory. They aren't. Our meddling in Afghanistan as part of our big game with the soviets helped create the conditions (national disintegration) that resulted in the Taliban's rise to power. Our failed intervention after 2001, while it dislodged the Taliban from Kabul, failed to destroy the Taliban as a political force and failed to create a functional national government that might return Afghanistan to the something like what it was before the troubles of the last 30 years. This military intervention stuff simply is not working out very well. It keeps having all these unintended consequences despite the noble intentions. Perhaps we might try letting the people of Afghanistan sort this out themselves instead, even if that means that the Pashtun regions are run by the same Taliban we ran out of Kabul. 30 years of foreign meddling has resulted in 30 years of horror for Afghanistan and the solution proposed is "let's try some more".

[JeffreyWilliamson]

264. The two drawbacks I have for this are...

Do we really know that had Bush not taken us into Iraq, and instead focused on success in Afghanistan, that it would be in a better state than it is today?

Secondly, the danger in letting the matter be resolved by Afghanistan, is that there is only a weak government in place, and the Taliban are in the suburbs outside of Kabul. Will it be possible for the Afghanis to resolve the problems if we pull out, or will the Taliban just walk in and take over? If they do, I think a case can be easily made that the problems will never be resolved internally, because the Taliban will murder anyone that even thinks about it.

That's not to say that the Taliban would last forever, they eventually will fall at some point. But how many lives will be destroyed while the world waits?

[LittleBlue]

265. Correct. The former Taliban and Afghanni tribesman that make up the current govt.

believe in a literal interpretation of the Koran, meaning mistreatment and oppression of women.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

267. Show me where the Afghan's current government treats women worse than the Taliban proper...

It wouldn't be easy to include anyone in their government that didn't have some kind of ties to the Taliban or tribesman, but that doesn't mean that hardcore Taliban leaders are running the current government of Afghanistan.

If we are going to start down the "they're really just one in the same" road regarding the two governments, we will have to ignore that women have a good deal more opportunity under the current government than what they had under the Taliban.

There may be former Taliban followers or warlords in the government, and they may have fundamentalist Islamic beliefs, but they are not the one's pouring acid on schoolgirls' faces.

[LittleBlue]

269. Who said they treated them worse? You're fight is for degrees of oppression

and the Afghan women will overwhelmingly vote (assuming they even agree on suffrage for women) in favor of requiring women to wear veils, on a man's dominance in politics and the household, on a man's right to marry his daughter to whomever he pleases with a dowry, with polygyny, with stoning and/or torturing women who violate numerous religious laws, and on women having no parental or guardianship rights with their children (and the children being the property of the male), among other things.

You're just arguing degrees of brutalization of women.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

272. Why have them vote or have any voice at all?

When they have such a good spokesperson like yourself to stand up and speak their opinion for them.

[LittleBlue]

266. Analogy is absurd. What about all the women who agree with this treatment?

Concentration camp victims were the unwilling victims of a genocide. The women of Afghanistan agree with their male counterparts, ie in a literal interpretation of the Koran.

What are you going to do when the women of this country vote for a constitution based on the Koran? The Iraqis did, and a good portion of the country (Sunni and Kurd) are far more moderate than the Afghan tribeswomen.

[leftynyc]

286. Can I have a link for that

You know, where the women in Afghanistan have said they want the taliban's religious rules enforced. Because the taliban doesn't want women in school - we all know this. I've seen stories of girls - some who have already had their faces burned with acid by these fuckers - say nothing will stop them from being educated.

[TheKentuckian]

281. The Afghans are a back burner part of the issue

The plan that most of us (even on the left) sided with was to eliminate the Taliban as a ruling force and to destroy Al Queda training and organizational ability in a region without the ability to police themselves.

I'm all for these mission, particularly the 2nd part, which is to remove/destroy a threat to our security and prosperity but part two will almost probably include part one.
This has ALWAYS meant action in Pakistan and yes we should be wiping out these camps and the organization that goes with them, even if it cost a great many Pakistani and Afghan lives. The purpose has never been peace, to save lives, to bring freedom, or any other laudable result. The pure function is to decimate Al Queda and Taliban ability to act in a way that threatens our nation.

No we aren't about to sit tight and suck up attacks here and around the world in order to make doves feel all is right with the world. Our government must place priority on American lives at millions to one of foreign nationals because their primary function is to protect our citizens and way of life. Sorry, if that sounds ugly but from the government's perspective the safety and freedom of Americans is of paramount importance.
We have already been tricked into trading some of our way of life away and that was irresponsible and stupid of our sheepish family, friends, and neighbors to cave into fear. Worse we allowed the focus to move completely away from the problem. Saddam posed no threat and more importantly acted as a secular firewall to the other theocratic regimes in the region. I don't give a crap what he was doing to his people from a strategic stand point because the firewall was working effectively and Iraq was less of a threat to us than say Canada, in all reality.

Iraq was/is a nation building/empire expansion boondoggle that damaged our national interests and security. Destroying the Taliban and Al Queda capability is a totally different matter, especially if we'd avoid messy nation building and nastier occupation.

[Hippo_Tron]

282. I agree, but I think it has to be a world effort (including the Muslim world) not a US effort

The US has lost too much credibility in the Middle East and the world to reshape Afghanistan by itself. I do think those who think we will get bogged down in another quagmire have legitimate fears. I think that part of the solution is to work to strengthen the government of Pakistan as much as we possibly can. Now that the country is rid of Musharraf (who we should never have supported in the first place), Pakistan has a secular democratically elected government, albeit a weak one. We should greatly increase our foreign aid and development assistance to Pakistan, not just our military aid. Perhaps once the Pakistanis have rid their country of the Taliban they can help the Afghans do the same.