Have we seen PROOF of Bush's Honorable Discharge?

[Stephanie]

Is there definitive evidence of that in the papers released so far?

[Stephanie]

1. Is this it?

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

[Walt Starr]

3. That's it

Note he was not available for signature.

[Stephanie]

4. So this is the final word on that?

Or is it possible subsequent information, such as the change in his flying status or his not completing his time, cause this discharge to be revised? Do we know if this is really the final discharge status?

[Walt Starr]

36. Not Necessarily, there is still a missing DD214

He should have received a DD214 when his service with the HQ ARPC was completed on November 21, 1974.

[Stephanie]

38. So where is it? What is his excuse for not releasing it?

What kind of information could it contain that they are trying to hide?

Rather's closing remark on this story last night leads me to believe CBS is looking into this.

[Walt Starr]

39. Welllllllll, it *could* contain a three letter code

which would indicate the *precise* conditions under which he was being released.

Many soldiers of that era were forever scarred by those three characters on their "honorable discharge".

[Stephanie]

42. Very interesting!

Isn't it extremely odd that this document has not been releaed by Bush? And wouldn't there be multiple copies of this document stored in various facilities?

[RivetJoint]

69. He would not have a DD-214

he was Guard, not active duty.

[Stephanie]

11. Where does it say honorable?

And why does it say he is transferred?

[City Lights]

28. That's what I'd like to know.

Where is the box that says he received an honorable discharge? Please don't tell me we are supposed to take his word on this. He's got to have released a document that shows he was discharged honorably. I'm going to dig around a bit.

On edit:

Using the docs available through USA Today, I found a piece of paper - much like the ones CBS has aired - signed by Hodges that states that chimpy is honorably discharged from TANG effective 1 Oct 73. Not a formal military document my any means. Looks like a letter. I don't know how to upload it.

[Spazito]

30. If you look at the top, just under the the header, about 3 lines down...

it has type of discharge: honorable

[City Lights]

31. I see it now. I wasn't expecting it there. Thanks. eom

[karlrschneider]

5. What's with the "NA" in item 13 under "race"?

Usually it means "not applicable".......:wtf:
North or Native American?? I've never seen that on a discharge paper.

[Spazito]

6. What does # 23 mean? Does it say "none" under military qualification...

it looks weird, mentions marksmanship badge, etc.

[TrueAmerican]

14. It should list qualified Aviator

shouldn't it? If he was qualified.

[Spazito]

26. I would think it would list some qualifications...

and it is interesting that it lists marksmanship badge as an example then says "none". Isn't that pic of bush wearing medals showing him wearing one that relates to marksmanship?

Another thing, if this is his final from Tang, shouldn't it list some qualifications that he completed?

[City Lights]

7. Can someone explain box 31 to me?

Why does it say, "Officer is transferred to ARPC (ORS), 3800 York, St., Denver...." Why was he transferred there rather than just discharged? Is that normal?

[TexasProgresive]

13. He still had 7 months 25 days left of his military obligation.

This is not the final discharge, but the final from the TANG. His DD-214 would show the final.

[City Lights]

16. Got it, thanks. But that raises more questions.

Why would they have transferred him to Denver if he was headed to Alabama? What's in Denver?

If, as he claims, he served his time in Alabama, he should have a similar form from his discharge there, right? Where is it? And, where is his final discharge?

Added another question on edit.

[Stephanie]

19. I found this here:

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

The rest of them might be there too for all I know. And this page does not show every single document. Didn't USA Today have all of them posted?

[City Lights]

24. Thanks.

The side-by-side comparison is helpful.

[TexasProgresive]

21. At this time he was headed to Boston not Alabama-

The transfer to Denver is a records thing. He was still in the Ready Reserves which is inactive reserves and could've been called to duty but had no responsiblity to do weekend drills, summer camp, etc. I got an early out from the TANG also and was likey transfered to Denver- But my body has never been in Denver.

[City Lights]

22. Thanks for clearing that up.

Lottsa confusing paperwork.

[Stephanie]

17. Bingo! We still haven't seen his DD-214, right?

I remember when we had a huge thread and every DU vet posted that they knew exactly where their DD-214 was. Many had theirs in the safe deposit box. But Bush's has not turned up, SFAIK.

[Hepburn]

25. So where is it...

...and why hasn't it been released?

[Stephanie]

27. Here is that thread from last February:

But is it possible this document has been released since then?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1081070

BOSSHOG
A Question for my Fellow Veterans

Are there any questions about your attendance record? Are your muster records filled with obfuscation and confusion? Would a Sergeant or a Chief play havoc with your life if you were "in absentia?" How long would it take you to prove that you served honorably? Could you whup out a DD-214 faster than zell miller could lie about being a democrat? - okay, thats a tossup!

My fellow liberals, poke a conservative in the eye with the above scenario. george bush wasn't there. Call it desertion, call it AWOL, all it UA, just CALL IT!!! Call it loud and call it every day until the election. The last thing the white house wants is for you and me to tell the truth about george bush.

CLINTON DID NOT SERVE - BUSH SERVED DISHONORABLY.

[Hepburn]

20. Bush's DD214 would be the document...

...which evidences his actual discharge status when he left the NG. So, where is it? I do not believe I have ever seen it posted anywhere on the internet.

[Stephanie]

34. So where is it, indeed!

Why hasn't that been released?

[Hepburn]

15. This does not appear to be his final discharge summary...

....because, for the simple reason, it does not come at the end of his service with the NG. So where is the doc for this? Seems odd.

[TexasProgresive]

9. Why'd they black out height, weight, marital status,

number of dependents and date of birth. That's really strange. I guess they blotted out height because he is only 4 foot 10.

[wuushew]

52. Interestingly enough they are on some documents

In 1973 Bush claims to be 5'11' 175lb, single, without children and somehow not belonging to any race.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/2-Discharge.pdf

[yardwork]

10. Has anybody we trust ever seen the original of this?

When the Bush White House accuses other people of wrongdoing, it usually means that they actually did it themselves.

They're claiming that the CBS documents are forgeries. Based on their usual pattern, this could mean that they have forged documents.

For example (just speculating here), it would be fairly simple to white out the original name and replace it with "Bush, George W." in Box 1 in the above document. Suppose the original was named "Bush, Thomas H." Pretty cinchy to replace the "Thomas H." with "George W." If some of the identifying characteristics don't match, just black them out.

This could have been done long ago, say around the time Bush, George W. decided to run for governor of Texas....

[BlueCollar]

2. I haven't...eom

[shraby]

8. How come his marital status

date of birth, height, weight and no. of dependents is blacked out if he was single.

[yardwork]

12. See my post above

I have a feeling that you and I had the same thought....

[seabeyond]

18. ah but is it forged. cause you know

there was the time that they scrubbed the records. so i want to know if they are legitimate

[Hepburn]

23. How can we find out about this? n/t

[troubleinwinter]

29. "Honorable Discharge"?

Ya say this is not his final discharge, that there remained time to serve after this document. So where is the final discharge doc.?

[tuvor]

32. John Allen Muhammad got an honorable discharge, too.

And wasn't always performing honorably.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,384299,00.html?cnn=yes

[oneighty]

71. I do not mind you saying that

and I do respect your opinion. However I do have two honorable discharges and by slandering his honorable discharge you bring all of our honorable discharges into the debate. I resent that.

The fact that Allen Muhammad received an honorable discharge suggests he was "Okay" for that honor as was Timothy McVeigh. Their actions afterwords are another matter.

In the same line of thought--Bush* receiving an honorable discharge does reflect poorly on all of us that have received an honorable discharge.

180

[Stephanie]

33. I still don't have a satisfactory answer

The document posted above does not appear to be the final discharge papers. I think we are looking for a DD-214 to prove definitively that Bush received an honorable discharge despite his absences and his failure to perform his flight physical and the change in his flight status and his failure to make captain.

Am I correct? And is it correct that the DD-214 to date has not been released?

[MallRat]

35. The question isn't "was the discharge honorable."

The question is "should he have received an honorable discharge in the first place?"

The WH keeps spinning with "he was honorably discharged," knowing full well that it's irrelevant.

Kerry's official record states that he won 3 Purple Hearts. Did that simple assertion put an end to the Smearboat Liars?

-MR

[hexola]

44. LOTS of guys dont finish reserves and get honorable discharges...

Well - I know ONE who did...

I dont really know how...but my college roomate was in the Navy Reserves...a medic - I think he was actually with the Marines when active...

When it came to reserves...he went for a while...but Jerry Garcia seemed to be much more important...so after a while - he just quit.

The MPs did come to the house once...

Later - - he paid back some of the money - but recieved an Honorable Discharge...

No politcs - just your average chump...

[Walt Starr]

45. We are still missing the discharge from the Reserves for Bush

We have all applicable discharges with a single exception. The one for HQ ARPC dated November 21, 1974. This was also during a time period when discharges included a three letter code which would show the conditions of the discharge even if it was "honorable".

[hexola]

46. Without regard to Bush - is this info hard to find...?

I mean - could MOST soldiers document stuff this thouroughly?

Bush seems like a slippery fish...

But perhaps this is typical of record keeping of the day...you might have just a hard a time documenting "Joe Nobody"

[Stephanie]

47. See my post #27 above

All the DU vets know where their DD214 is.

[Walt Starr]

48. Everybody I know could get this within days

if they don't have a copy of it already.

[Stephanie]

49. Is that the same as the DD-214?

Has a stink been made about this? Is there any explanation? Did Barney eat it?

[Richardson08]

37. Haven't you learned

When it comes to Bush,the media and the majority of the American people cut him slack.He is never held accountable for anything.He has lied,mislead and miscalculated but they like him so all is forgiven.They like it when Teflon says "You know where I stand".That's part of the problem.The Boy King and Kerry are held to two different standards.

[derby378]

40. DD-214 or DD-258?

What became of the blog reports that Bush actually received an Undesirable Discharge as detailed in Form DD-258? Has that been confirmed or debunked yet?

[Stephanie]

41. Do you remember where you saw that?

What is DD-258?

[derby378]

43. Here's one link

http://corrente.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_corrente_archive.html

[City Lights]

53. Have you checked out Paul Lukasiak's work?

http://glcq.com/

[Stephanie]

54. Thanks! I remember Paul very well from some other boards

when he was researching the Florida voting irregularities (can you say "Volusia"?). Thanks for the link! Just heard he was working on this.

[City Lights]

56. He believes shrub deserted.

Here's his summary:

An examination of the Bush military files within the context of US Statutory Law, Department of Defense regulations, and Air Force policies and procedures of that era lead to a single conclusion:  George W. Bush was considered a deserter by the United States Air Force.

After Bush quit TXANG, he still had nine months of his six-year military commitment left to serve.   As a result, Bush became a member of the Air Force Reserves and was transferred to the authority of the Air Reserve Personnel Center (ARPC) in Denver, Colorado.   Because this was supposed to be a temporary assignment, ARPC had to review Bush’s records to determine where he should ultimately be assigned.  That examination would have led to three conclusions: That Bush had “failed to satisfactorily participate” as defined by United States law and Air Force policy, that TXANG could not account for Bush’s actions for an entire year, and that Bush’s medical records were not up to date.  Regardless of what actions ARPC contemplated when reviewing Bush’s records, all options required that Bush be certified as physically fit to serve, or as unfit to serve.   ARPC thus had to order Bush to get a physical examination, for which Bush did not show up.  ARPC then designated Bush as AWOL and a “non-locatee” (i.e. a deserter) who had failed to satisfactorily participate in TXANG, and certified him for immediate induction through his local draft board.  Once the Houston draft board got wind of the situation, strings were pulled; and documents were generated which directly contradict Air Force policy, and which were inconsistent with the rest of the records released by the White House.

http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm

[Stephanie]

50. I'm not letting this go. I have a feeling Dan Rather isn't either.

He gave a strong hint at the end of his broadcast last night. Said that when they asked the WH the five questions, the only answer they would give was that Bush received an Honorable Discharge.

We'll see about that. Where is the DD-214??

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

51. Here's the deal:

No DD-214? No CONCLUSIVE answer on his discharge.

Period.

And yes, veterans know damn well where their DD-214s are. It's like your frigging transcript from university, only MORE so. It is the last and final word on what you did in the military. You HAVE to get it corrected before you get out, and some are even encouraged to have theirs NOTARIZED, it is that important.

When Mr. Moonbeam got out of active duty Army after 11 years, they had him sit down and read the entire thing, line by line, to make sure it was accurate and complete.

It's a BIG deal. And bushs is missing in action and has been. Kerry's is on his website.

QED

[Stephanie]

55. There you have it. Thanks.

So the doc in post 2 is just his TX discharge, not his NG discharge - right?

And what is his excuse for not releasing the DD-214? It's outrageous.

[Stephanie]

59. "No DD-214? No CONCLUSIVE answer on his discharge. Period."

So where is it, Mr. Bush? I am shocked! Shocked! That this administration has not provided the documents.

[RivetJoint]

70. DD-214s are for active duty discharges

Bush wasn't active duty...too chicken

[oneighty]

72. Interesting!

Do you have proof? A source?

180

[Stephanie]

74. Yes, is this correct? National Guard members don't get a DD214?

Does anyone know if this is true?

[oneighty]

75. I do not know Stephanie.

Rivet has said this a number of times and seems to be ignored. If he/she has that sort of information he/she it would be nice to share it.

If you see Trof around he may know the answer.

180

[Walt Starr]

76. It's true with a caveat

They get NG22's instead.

but remember, Bush wasn't finished after he weas discharged from the TANG. He was reassigned to HQ APCS in Denver. He SHOULD HAVE a DD214 dated November 21, 1974.

[Stephanie]

77. I thought the Denver transfer was just a technicality

Was he actually transferred there, or is that where they keep the files of inactive people?

Should we be looking for his DD-214, or an NG22?

[Hubert Flottz]

57. Upgrading Discharges

Introduction to Spin Codes

Even on an Honorable discharge, a "Spin Code" (SPN - Separation Program Number) can hurt a veteran's chance of being hired by a prospective employer. These spin codes were put on DD 214 (discharge papers) from the 1940's through the early 1970's. Veterans can request a new DD 214 with the spin codes removed.

Examples of a few spin codes:
SPN 258 - Unfitness, multiple reasons
SPN 263 - Bedwetter
SPN 41A - Apathy, lack of interest
SPN 41E - Obesity
SPN 46C - Apathy / Obesity
SPN 463 - Paranoid personality
(see longer list of spin codes below)

http://www.landscaper.net/discharg.htm

This long list just about covers anything the 8 ball in Chief did or didn't do! If Poppy had the stroke he needed to buy Shrub's way into the TNG ahead of all those other kids, then it statnds to reason, that he had the amount of stroke required to buy Shrub's way out, with a good discharge?

[Stephanie]

58. That is fascinating.

Someone mentioned upthread that perhaps Bush didn't release his DD 214 because it might contain an unfavorable three digit code.

So it seems to me Poppy might not have had as much pull as he wished he had. Because if Junior had a spotless DD 214, he would have released it.

[DemBones DemBones]

60. So what do you think Hubert, a 429 or a 669?

Or another one?

Though I suppose he had completed his Flight Training?

429 Discharged because of not meeting medical fitness standards for Flight
training.


Lots of interesting info about the veteran who works to get people's bad codes corrected. According to him, many vets were stabbed in the back by the military giving them bad codes they didn't deserve. Reminds me of school in the fifties and sixties when we were always told bad things would go on our permanent records, which we were, of course, not allowed to see.

[Stephanie]

61. What is 669?

*edit* Never mind, I found it at the link:

"669 Dropped from rolls - AWOL desertion."

[Hubert Flottz]

62. I saw about 50 things it could have been!

I didn't find the code for "Coked Up" or "Wimped Out", but those would be my guess!

[Walt Starr]

66. 257 for both he and Bath

Mark my words, Rove WANTS everybody to talk up AWOL because the reality is MUCH WORSE for Bush politically.

LWe should be looking into Bath's records because I bet he and Bush both got 257's on their final discharges.

[Stephanie]

73. What is 257?

Can't check that link at the moment. What would 257 indicate?

[Walt Starr]

64. Me, I think it's a shocking 257

He and Bath both, if you get my drift!

[Hubert Flottz]

63. Kick

:kick:

[Spazito]

65. Wouldn't it be positively delicious if CBS has this document...

the D214 with the added code, and is just waiting till the bush admin has dug their hole deep enough before bringing it forward. Dan Rather seems very confident in pursuing this issue which leads me to believe they have something bigger planned down the line.

It would also explain why the rw and the bush admin are so desperate to discredit the memos in hopes that the public won't accept the D214 when it becomes public.

[DemonFighterLives]

67. My DD214 is in my safe

The way things are going with the shrub, it is apparent that there is something to hide. Your DD214 is kept in case all of the military records are lost, you can prove that you did your time and thus not be recalled. It is the end of the contract.

Amazing how shrubs microfilm were declard lost and then found again. I suspect Rove is typing a new DD214 for W as we speak. There is no other way that this story should ever drop. I have freepers telling me every day that the AWOL story is so "done", yet there is never anything to prove what B*sh and the gang are saying.

To see him yesterday speaking to the national guard and putting himself on the pedestal with 19 other "men" who served both the guard and as president made me cringe. W= Madison = Washington -- In his dreams. POS moreso.

[Stephanie]

68. Did you see this?

Across from the convention center, on Elm Street, "Veterans for Kerry'' held a peaceful protest. Many of them waved placards that contained copies of their military discharge papers and the words, "Mr. Bush, here's my DD-214, where's yours?''

It was a reference to allegations that Bush did not fulfill his obligation to the Air National Guard in the early 1970s.

"I know where I was in those days,'' said Tim Steinerman of Indian Lake, Ohio. "I'd like to know where he was.''

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/17/loc_loc1abush.html