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Now that I think of it, the LGBT community should thank Obama for the Warren invocation

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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:05 PM
Original message
Now that I think of it, the LGBT community should thank Obama for the Warren invocation
I've given some thought to Barack Obama's strategy of using associations as a tool to find common ground. I see it as his way to not only to achieve his ends, but also a way to break down barriers which other politicians build to operate initially in a environment of partisanship, which only brings eventual failure.

Such partisanship isolates lesser skilled politicians, such as George W, Bush, who are unable to succeed in garnering popular support for their policies. It's also important that any successful politician be principled, as most of us will agree that Barack Obama does stick by his principles. Bush may have accomplished some of the results that he wanted, such starting his illegal wars and achieving a virtual police state in this country. But lets face it, subsequent principled leaders are poised to strike down the illegal structures that Bush and his cronies have constructed. His house is built on a foundation of sand.

All of us expected the ship of state to right itself, and it will.

Now, a less skillful politician might have avoided the Saddleback Debate with Rick Warren. And frankly, I don't even think that it was his objective to even win it. If Obama's goal was to state and stand by his principles to an audience who are as right wing as evangelicals, I'm sure that he understood that he wasn't going to win them over in one event. If you remember, most polls after the debate indicated that McCain had won it. But, I think it was Obama way to eventually disarm a powerful voice in the evangelical community through his association with himself, if the necessity for it were to arise. In other words, I believe that Obama understands the importance of using setbacks as tool to obtain greater success down the road.

The tool at Obama's command is popular support. I'm sure that he recognized the public outrage of from the result of Prop 8 and other referendums. Although, there was an initial setback, there currently is a struggle going on to reverse the injustice to restricting civil rights. If anyone thinks that full civil rights for lesbian, gays, bisexuals and the trans-gendered are going to be achieved without a struggle in America, they are deluding themselves.

Obama, with his association with Rick Warren, has opened a door for those who are determined to struggle. Without that association, Warren would be free to operate in isolation from the public outrage. He would be free to spew homophobic remarks without feedback. He would not be exposed to the consequences of hatred and violence against the LGBT community. Warren has worked hard to portray himself as an open minded and principled religious figure, if only by his willingness to embrace Obama. Warren's only recourse, if he were to stray away from this effort, would be to devolve into utter hypocrisy. Although other so-called religious figures may fall into hypocrisy at the drop of a hat, I'm sure that Warren understands that such a direction would cause a rend from a man who is about to become the next president. He would need a powerful association more than a man who holds the most powerful office there is. It's a valuable association where Obama holds just about all the trump cards.

If you are outraged by the treatment of the LGBT community, this is where you come in. Barack Obama has opened a door for you that no other progressive minded politician would ever have attempted. He has given you, hook, line and sinker, an evangelical figure to whom you can transmit what injustices the LGBT community face in this country. Day in and day out, DUers tell a powerful message about the plight of gays in America. Rick Warren is impelled to listen to the Obama constituency if he is to maintain his association, and if it's still the case, that constituency is YOU!

The tool is popular pressure, which you have in your hands.

The impetus is to fight injustice, which all principled people are impelled to do.

The idea is convince someone like Rick Warren that by standing with Obama, they must also fight injustice, otherwise they'll be exposed as a hypocrite.


This is where you need to play hardball.

Not against those who are standing by your side, the people who are ready to march with you to achieve full civil rights. But to change the hearts and minds of those who are willing to recognize the struggle against injustice that you are fighting.

What are you doing to engage in the struggle? Are you wallowing in a morass of self pity and anger, striking back helping hands. Or are you recognizing the open door and walking on through it?

I think that nothing less than a direct appeal to Rick Warren to recognize the injustice faced the LGBT community is warranted.

Do you think that you're up to the challenge?


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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, Obama was just a genius to expose this bigot. Thank you PE Obama!
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Threads like this should be ashamed unless they are being sarcastic. n/t
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry but I'm just not big enough to 'forgive' or thank him for this
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 04:20 PM by warrior1
It really hurts that you put more thought into this that Barack did in inviting him. I don't expect anything to change.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Uh oh, break out the popcorn...
:popcorn:

I think he is doing it for damage control purposes, after getting beaten up so badly by McCain/Palin supporters.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. nah, we need allies, not challenges.

Plenty of challenges already, thanks.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
83. You do need allies
Who isn't for equal rights for everyone?

But the way some of you go about it (see this thread) will NOT get you allies.
It seems to me as if some here don't want a solution, they thrive on the fight alone.

Truly... it seems as if some want to keep this issue alive just so they can fight.
I've seen people like that in real life. And it looks to be the same here.

Of course, not that you care what I say, I am just an allie for equal rights, and that's all I am.
I am not gay. And that seems to piss some people off to no end. So be it.

The OP that Mr. Scorpio put up here is an honest representation of a way to end the fight, and lots of people seem to be fighting Mr. Scorpio's IDEA. The fight goes on.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #83
108. No they're not
Why can't people on DU figure this out? It's been going on for weeks, and being explained for weeks, yet people still don't see it. Most of the gay posters I've seen may be pissed off at Obama somewhat, but they are far more pissed off at the fact that so many straight people are telling them to shut up and take it. How is that different than saying their voices don't matter? How can someone claim to be progressive and pro-civil rights, and then in the same breath turn around and tell an entire group how they are supposed to feel? If it were directed at me, I'd be pissed off too.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. Heh
I have been told to STFU and go away.
Do you believe that?

Otherwise I see nothing in your post that recognizes what I wrote about.
You are just ranting.

Want to read my post and try again?
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. What are you talking about?
Are you trying to tell me that the people that have been telling me they are mostly pissed off at the fact that they are being told to STFU, are really mad because of something else? I was simply making a statement that much of the outrage on DU is about how it is that DUers are arguing in and of itself. Want to read what it is that I actually put and try again, rather than just assuming I'm trying to attack you?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Read it again, apparently for the first time:

Who isn't for equal rights for everyone?

But the way some of you go about it (see this thread) will NOT get you allies.
It seems to me as if some here don't want a solution, they thrive on the fight alone.

Truly... it seems as if some want to keep this issue alive just so they can fight.
I've seen people like that in real life. And it looks to be the same here.

Of course, not that you care what I say, I am just an allie for equal rights, and that's all I am.
I am not gay. And that seems to piss some people off to no end. So be it.

The OP that Mr. Scorpio put up here is an honest representation of a way to end the fight, and lots of people seem to be fighting Mr. Scorpio's IDEA. The fight goes on.
***************

I am saying that some people just want to fight, so they do whatever they can to keep the fight going.
Hey, sometimes I am that way. Aren't you?
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. And my point is, that people aren't just trying to be contrary just to do so
There's a lot of anger on DU over the Warren choice that isn't because of Warren, but because people resent being told that their opinion is unimportant and they are fighting just to fight. That's what the underlying message of "just let it go" really is.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. And
They are telling me that my opinion is unimportant.
And calling me names and telling me to go away and STFU.

And you can see in this thread that folks are telling Mr. Scorpio to STFU and go away.
Right here in this thread!
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. I agree with you that there's too much of that going on
However, I don't see the OP to be a way of solving it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. We don't agree then
Because I see it as A way to solve the problem.

Interesting that the solutions presented heretofore have not solved the problem yet, and then when a new way of looking at the problem is presented, it is dismissed out of hand with unreasonable responses and name calling. Just like on this thread.

Its as if all some want to do is fight.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. ??
Pretty convoluted and rather insulting.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. shrug,


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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I appreciate the time and thought put into your post.
I recognize that it comes from a good place. I disagree that Obama chose Warren for those reasons. This may come to pass as the outcome of this decision, which is what I am hopeful for.

I'm not wallowing (I don't think). I'm not even gay. I've been on DU reading on the subject. I'm finding that the issue of Prop 8 gets everyone heated up about "gay rights, fringe issues, etc." This was a law that amended the state constitution. By popular vote. This year it was gay rights. Next year it could be gun rights. This is big stuff people.

But I'm finding this so hard to convey on a message board that I'm wondering how this will ever be possible to get across in real life.

My .02
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Balderdash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. I agree with you. How does a state constitution allow
the majority to take away the rights of minorities?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. If only FDR had included a Nazi in his 1940 inauguration!
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. What's the name of that rule again?
That one that says when you invoke Nazis in an internet discussion, you have automatically lost the argument? What's it called again?

Oh, whatever. "FAIL."
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Not when you're discussing a time-frame in which they were relevant. nt
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. We're not discussing 1940, we're discussing now. n/t
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That rule doesn't exist, Godwin's law only says that the longer a conversation goes on...
the greater the chances that Hitler or Nazis are mentioned. It doesn't discuss whether such a comparison is valid or not. I hate it when people misquote the Rule.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. My apologies
Still, there should be a corollary, based on common sense if nothing else.

"At any point during a conversation at which a comparison is made between a contemporary non-violent political issue and Hitler and/or the Nazis, the person making such a comparison automatically forfeits the argument."
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why, when it's a legitimate analogy?
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. I don't normally have a problem detecting sarcasm, but...
you've lost me. I hope you're not serious. :yoiks:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. When you have someone that preaches hate..
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
85. When you have someone who preaches hate...what?
Last I checked Rick Warren hasn't tried to conquer western Europe or kill a few million people after putting them in concentration camps. Get a life.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
95. Why do you hope I'm not serious???
If it's a legit analogy, then so what?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. This joint gets more bizarre by the minute
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #100
104. Just don't bogart it, whatever you do.
;-)
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #95
103. IT'S NOT A LEGITIMATE ANALOGY, THAT'S WHY
Sorry to shout, but how can you be so dense?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
87. Not a "rule" rules have to be proven. Some guy named Godwin made a statement.
And appeasers' everywhere called it a "Law".
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Deaf ears.
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. i'm sure a bush was present SOMEWHERE at FDR's inauguration
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. You do know that he did appoint a NAZI sympathizer as ambassador to the UK, right? And in '39 ...
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 04:58 PM by ieoeja

He offered a cabinet position to Charles Lindbergh, another NAZI sympathizer.

(I need one of those Epic Fail graphics here.)
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
56. And he should not have done so. It came back and bit him on the ankle.
It would have bitten him on the butt, but he was sitting down, and he had NO CLUE JK would be a Nazi appeaser.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
96. Lingbergh was shut out of having a role in the War because of his sympathies
It very much tarnished his image as well.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. And Joe Kennedy got fired for his too.
Eleanor said she'd NEVER seen FDR angrier than when JK told him we should make a deal with Hitler.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Great Post.
K&R
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Are you on eggnog? Rick Warren would go broke if he changed his position.
And that includes his anti-women and anti-science positions.

It's not going to happen.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Also, I don't know what common ground there is, this guy is a fraud when it comes to Poverty and...
AIDS issues.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!


Oh... you're serious!?

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. My reaction at first, too
I kept expecting a "twist" in the OP. Alas, it never came.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. You GO, Boyfriend!
"If you are outraged by the treatment of the LGBT community, this is where you come in. Barack Obama has opened a door for you that no other progressive minded politician would ever have attempted. He has given you, hook, line and sinker, an evangelical figure to whom you can transmit what injustices the LGBT community face in this country. Day in and day out, DUers tell a powerful message about the plight of gays in America. Rick Warren is impelled to listen to the Obama constituency if he is to maintain his association, and if it's still the case, that constituency is YOU! "

Dennis needed a little training and so does Obama. Ya know, that "learning curve" thingie.
Of course, there is the tiny issue of Warren's TOTALLY misogynistic, homophobic, counter-productive activities in Africa, in the name of "health care" to be considered. Exposure of this guy is a GOOD THING. Can we connect him to Muthee? :evilgrin:

He's ALREADY been tapped to fill the void left by the passing of the old farts and hey, he's got a bestseller!

But he's a pretty flimsy excuse. I say we take him down.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Futile
:banghead: cause this is all you will get trying to change the heart of Rick Warren

Oh, and this:

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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. Many churchs
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 05:26 PM by LatteLibertine
practice both sexism and homophobia. When you embrace those sort of things it makes accepting something like racism much easier. Usually sexism, racism and homophobia do go hand and hand.

I've said what I have to say about Warren and won't cover that ground again. It's a mistake to legitimize him.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. Good post MrScorpio. I accept your challange.
I read in you OP that the consequences of the invitation of Mr. Warren, whether intended or not, may benefit the overall struggle. It certainly has opened up a lively dialog and brought attention to the fight for LGBT rights. Seems to me that it would be worse if the issue was allowed to die down. After Prop 8, America is more aware of the fight for rights. I further read in you OP that those that support the LGBT rights need to take the fight to Warren himself. Keep the pressure on Mr. Warren himself, and don't let the issue die.

I hope I read your OP correctly.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. You read it absolutely correctly
Warren, through his association with Obama, is now vulnerable to pressure from Obama's constituency.

An appeal directly to the reasons for his association is available because of the opportunity. I.e., working towards peace and justice, which I'm sure are principles that he wishes depicted as sharing with Obama.

Any unwillingness by Warren to respect that association (and Obama's abiding principles) puts him in danger of being exposed as a hypocrite.

Hypocrisy will endanger his access to Obama.

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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. How's the song go?
"Got along without you before I met you, gonna get along withut you now"

Warren does not need Obama for anything. Certainly he will take the opportunity of the association when it is presented, but I can't see any way he is susceptible to eny pressure from Obama's constituency. We aren't the people buying his books or putting money in his collection plate. He is far more susceptible to pressure from the other side.

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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Warren is also a public figure
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 05:58 PM by MrScorpio
He's taken quite a risk from engaging with Obama, as that it exposes him to Obama's own supporters.

If Warren really felt that he would have nothing to gain from an association with Obama, he would not have sponsored a presidential debate or accepted an invitation to give an inaugural invocation.

The Web gives everyone the opportunity to put Warren under a microscope. Pressure from Obama's constituency can provide a catalyst for Warren to make changes.
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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. I didn't say he had nothing to gain
He is using his Obama association to increase his mainstream prestige. (And how that's a good thing, I don't know)But I fail to see how that in some way makes him more vulnerable to pressure from Obama supporters. He's made millions without us, he'll continue to do so.

If Warren were an elected official, your argument would have merit. But he is not.

I wish I could believe you are right about this, but I do not believe you are.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. Few would have though that a progressive politician and an evangelical preacher...
Could engage in sensible discourse before. But, it's happened.

Change has to start someplace.

I think it starts with standing by one's principles and urging the other party to either defend or change theirs.

Convincing Warren that if he is to make an ally of Obama also means that he has to listen to Obama's constituency.

Just because a thing is difficult doesn't make it impossible. If any person who succeeded in the struggle for social justice felt that what nothing would be accomplished.

Recognize opportunity and exploit it.

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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. Well meaning, but useless advice
I appreciate your thoughts on this issue, but I think you are wrong.

Warren owes Obama nothing. He will take whatever prestige he gets from his seat of honor at the Inauguration and thumb his nose at the GLBT community, and all the other Americans who disagree with his theology. Obama has no leverage over him. One of the troubling aspects of the matter is it's one sided nature. In theory, Obama's desire to reach out to the right is admirable, but without some reaching back it is nothing more than acquiescence to them. And at best, Obama is using the rights of an American minority group at a chess piece in a game in which he knows the other side cheats.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
86. You are stating the situation rather clearly. It's a gain for Warren
A smack in the face to the LGBT community and damn annoying to everyone who is concerned about Civil Rights. Obama could have had anyone in the world that he wanted for that two minutes, and he chose Warren. W-H-Y!!
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
30. That's freaking hi-liarilous
This is not something that just came up. This is an ongoing thang.




What I'd like to ask you is, if you are standing at our sides, ready to march, there were marches all over the country after Prop 8. Did you attend one? Or were you not 'ready' then, just yet? Because ready is as ready does.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. Well Warren did pull the GLBT "you are not wanted" bullshit down from his
website and he is making videos on Youtube saying he does want to be inclusive. How much of that is bullshit no one knows. But he is being forced to chance his rhetoric.

So you do have a point. Although I am not sure this was the supper plan of Obama's or just an unexpected benefit.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. It means that he's at least susceptible to pressure
I've seen the same thing that you have.

Whether or not this is Obama's plan is moot.

All I'm saying the next move needs to made by loud and powerful voices in Obama's constituency.
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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. "Thank you sir, may I have another?" n/t
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
122. Indeed.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. He put it back up. The message about gays not being allowed to be members of his church is back up.
They took it down just for a few days, tweaked it, and put it back up.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Yes:


http://www.queerty.com/saddleback-church-site-not-taking-down-gay-condemnations-after-all-20081223/

"QUEERTY REPORTS — We received a nice email from Kristin Cole, the press rep for the Sadleback Church letting us know that they are keeping their anti-gay rhetoric on the church website after all.

Cole writes us:

"I wanted to make sure you were aware that the Q & A addressing homosexuality on the Saddleback Church Web site has not been permanently removed, but rather repurposed for clarity. I know your readers have noticed the change.

Attached is the audio response from Saddleback Associate Pastor Tom Holladay regarding the question, “What Does the Bible Say About homosexuality – is it a sin?” that will be posted later this morning on the site.

Wanted to make sure you were aware of this. Thanks!""
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Then such an action warrants a fervent response...
From a lot of Obama supporters.

Frankly, you have no idea how mad I get when people cherry-pick the Bible to support their prejudices.

This is exactly what they are doing.

The response should be that Warren is being a hypocrite, if on one hand he's supporting Obama and his principles and the other hand he's damning Obama's constituents.

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. That would be an excellent response.

I'm not sure what the most effective form that would take.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I'm no freaking political genius or community organizer
I wish I had an answer.

But this is a discussion (I hope) with a lot of smart folks.

Somebody's got some ideas.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Me neither.


"Somebody's got some ideas." That's why I stick around. And if have a brainwave I will be sure to share!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
33. I totally see your
point and agree although if you're a person who is hurting from what the bigot Warren spews..it would be very difficult to look at the big pic.

Your analysis of this kind of goes along with some thoughts from another forum on DU..

"Psychic Consortium (125 posts) Fri Dec-26-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message

88. GLBT rights and Rick Warren
Edited on Fri Dec-26-08 01:06 PM by Psychic Consortium

1. Events are unfolding as they should.
2. GLBTs will have full equal rights.
3. Twists, turns, detours will not affect the outcome.
4. This reality is bigger than any one man.
5. PC can feel the hearts broken at the Warren pick.
6. Pain precedes change.
7. Struggle and effort must happen to gain rights.
8. Wait and see.
9. The 21st Century: Real dialogue about real issues."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=245x80318#81298




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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. If Jesus wasn't able to cure these bigots, what makes you think Obama can? n/t
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Kucinich07 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
97. Good point
Post recommended.
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
43. Mr. Scorpio, you're smokin your breakfast again! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl:
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
44. this is the obama way. it is what i voted for.
the wedges and the walls that have been built in this country around hot buttons issues have hurt us all. we know that. they have hurt people on both sides of the fence. tearing them down will be hard, and painful for a lot of people.
but it must be done. it must.
he is going to do a lot of things that are going to piss off many powerful people. we will need to be by his side. and we will need to be behind him pushing. it's the old 'i agree with you. i want to do it. now make me.' so, we must always be right behind him, vocally putting forth a progressive agenda. it must be clear that he is doing the people's business.
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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
79. That's not how progress is made
Progress is made when activists citizens get in front of politicians and pull them forward, not by standing behind them, waiting for them to do the right thing.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. i didn't say waiting. i said pushing.
if we are splintered, we are nowhere. if we are together, we move forward. he wants us out there vocally building consensus, and demanding progress. only if the people are behind him can he make the changes that we so badly need.
it is called having his back, something that i, for one, promised i would always do.

obama wants to be the president of all americans. the smart ones, the stupid ones, the lefty ones, the righty ones, all of us. each and every one of us. including those that didn't vote for him. including the ones that think he is an uppity nigger. all of us.
you may hate these people, i may hate these people. he may hate these people. but he is their president. he wants to be their president. and if he pulls it off, he will be the great president that i think he can be.
all of us would do well to respect the humanity of these people. they are our brothers and sisters, whether we like it or not. they are americans, however we think they fail to be good americans. however imperfect they are.

it is his gift to be able to accept people, to find the good in them, to work with people without judging them. it is a very, very hard thing to do. but it is what we need to do to move forward.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #84
106. Respect the humanity
The world could use a heaping pile of that, eh? Respect the humanity of people.

I too am dedicated to helping Obama become as good a president as he wants to be.
But I must respect that he sees things a bit differently than I do.
And that others are not as blind as I imagine.
Tho, this thread makes me wonder 'bout dat.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
45. Should black people thank the RNC for "Barack the Magic Negro?"
Now that we're discussing the cd with "Barack the Magic Negro" and other racist and bigoted material that was distributed by the RNC, do you think that the people who compiled and distributed the cd will change their minds?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I didn't vote for the RNC
And of course, things like that is why they rarely get any support from the Black Community.

But let's face it, the RNC isn't trying to suck up to Barack Obama now, is it?

So who should give a royal fuck what they say?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. So, you would be offended if the president invited the compiler of that cd to speak at an event?
It would bother you if the president of the United States chose to elevate and single out the person who compiled and distributed that cd by asking them to, say, give a prayer at his inauguration.

How would you feel?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I'm saying that the analogy is flawed
Because no racists in the RNC would be trying to get on Obama's good side.

However, let's say that if non partisan conservatives are trying to created an association with Obama, then I feel that they too have opened up themselves for criticism (like Warren), that they would not have created had they not sought out an alliance in the first place.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. No racists would bother to try to get on Obama's good side, but homophobes have a good chance.
Isn't that kind of sad?

Obama would utterly reject any overtures from racists - as he should, in my opinion. But Obama himself is welcoming to outspoken homophobes like Rick Warren, and when gay supporters of Obama complain, we're told to be quiet and let Obama welcome "everyone" to the table.

Do you see how it makes us feel? How would you feel if a white, gay president welcomed the compilers of the racist cd, and when people complained (as I would - I'd complain quite loudly, too) we'd be told that we weren't being inclusive.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Well think about what I've said
Have I said that voices should be loud or quiet?

All I'm suggesting that people like you (and I'm assuming that you voted for Obama) have voices that need to be heard by people like Warren. And this is because Warren himself needs to face the fact that an association with Obama should come with pressure from Obama's supporters.



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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. I agree, and that's why I'm speaking out in all the ways I can. Will you help me?
I will continue to speak out against racism every single time I can. I will continue to fight for universal health care and an end to poverty and war any way that I can.
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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. I don't mind Obama inviting them to the table
I resent him giving them our chair.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
93. I think they should play that song at the Inaugural
you know, to reach out to racists!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
53. You missed one of the important things that happened at the Saddleback debate...

Obama reaffirmed his position, before Warren's audience and to the entire world watching the debate, his belief that marriage is between a man and a woman, that heterosexual marriage is sacred and that "God is in the mix". Should I thank Obama for doing that? I guess in a way it is a good thing because now I can call him out for his religious bigotry, regardless of how Warren is affected.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Of course, Prop 8 and the subsequent backlash has occured since them
So, outrage is a way to change minds. I believe, that it's the impetus for eventual change.

But most of all, I feel that the greatest pressure should come from the rank and file.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. We are the rank and file. Yet many here on DU have told gay folks to take a hike.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. I'm sorry to hear that
But you haven't heard that from me.

I can't see why it's not possible to take that outrage and focus it outward.

Which is my suggestion.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. I am focusing it outward. Every way I can.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Not so fast...

I and others were busy trying to drum up support for defeating Prop 8, well before the election. Obama's comment was diametrically opposed to that goal. I do NOT thank him for that, and I could easily blame him for the marginal success of Prop 8.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Well, I hope that you recognize with me that the fight ain't over.
And frankly, I think that one of Obama's greatest strengths is his open mind.

The key is helping him understand that's in his (and the nation's) best interest to change it.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. I agree.
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biopowertoday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #53
105. Yes, it is out in the open now for all to see. Perhaps
this was the one good thing about Obama's choice. It is public now.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
61. Yep
That's what I have been trying to convey now for a week.
But you have clearly expressed it better than I ever could. Thanks, Mr. Scorpio.

Too, all this has been a gauge of just what kind of movement
was really behind Equal Rights for Everyone. Call it the ERE.

I think the message is being heard loud and clear: The time is now. Lets get 'er done.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
65. Honestly, I don't believe PE Obama put as much thought into it as you have elucidated.
I am really cynical and jaded.

And Rick Warren has not been operating in a vacuum anyway. He has had national media attention for quite a long time now, given his damned book and his "town hall forum" at his "church".

He is in the business of fleecing his flock, in the name of "Jesus". He uses hatred and fear to ply his parishioners, and the unwitting public (who buy his books). The man never met a camera he did not like, and the sooner he disappears from the national stage, the better off all of us are.

All of us being, GLBTs, Women, People who believe in reproductive rights, and People who seek advancements in science.

Newsflash to the world. It ain't just teh gays that he is hating on.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Then he should be exposed
Loudly and from as many directions as possible.

Sham preachers have been brought down before. Very few of them have presented so many opportunities for outside pressure, like Warren has.

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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. I respectfully disagree.
He has had enough publicity.

For sure he should not be on the stage with a DEMOCRAT, when I would bet my last penny that he voted REPUBLICAN in the election.

I wish these people would just go rapture themselves and leave us all the hell alone. Seriously.

I apologize for not being very rational when it comes to "Pastor" Warren. He enrages me like very few people in life ever have.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. The fact is that people are talking, where they never have talked before
The outrage is changing hearts and minds

I think that Warren should get much more than a taste of it

He pisses me off too, but I also know that he's not going anywhere

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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
82. Unfortunately, Obama has immunized him
Mark my words, sometime in the next year or so, Warren will do or say something so offensive that it would bring any other public figure down. But when we try to call him on it, the media will brush us of by pointing out that he has Obama's seal of approval.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #82
119. Bingo.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
68. Saying we're "wallowing in a morass of self pity and anger" doesn't do much to win us over.
Are you seriously suggesting that we should appeal to Rick Warren to recognize the injustice that HE HIMSELF promotes against us?

:rofl:

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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. I'm saying that he has a choice
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 07:00 PM by MrScorpio
Either understand the value of his association with Obama, or risk being exposed as a hypocrite.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter.


Edit: Btw, the "morass" statement was a spank. I'm glad I got your dander up.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. He's already been exposed as a hypocrite.
And he isn't going to change his positions on anything, or he'll lose his sheep.

I always find it interesting when people have to resort to insults to get someone's dander up, instead of relying on the weight of their own argument to get attention.


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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
88. Or, maybe we should insult Warren to try and win him over. Hey, if insults work against our own
perhaps they will work against our enemy.

Better than "Insult your base, appease your enemy" at any rate.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #68
121. Why not?
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 06:54 PM by HypnoToad
After all, should politicians talk to their supporters... or convince those detractors by confronting them with reason instead?

You tell me what makes more sense. Or do you just want to ask what the fuck is wrong with me some more?

(and if the detractors keep saying "no", find new polite ways to get them to change their minds. Otherwise ignore them, are they worth your time? Indeed... )
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
71. Is this a fucking joke? It's an all out ORWELLIAN WAR OF WORDS on GLBTS now
Down is fucking up, prejudice is tolerance, a slap in the face is a hand up the ladder.

Are you fucking crazy?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Am I crazy? Who am I to say?
But I do understand the notion of taking some lemons and making some pretty tasty lemonade.

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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. I didn't vote for lemons. You have the nerve to tell us we should be THANKFUL?
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 07:08 PM by Harvey Korman
Spin it any way you want, Obama chose to give this person legitimacy for his own cynical, political reasons, then made it even WORSE by trotting out his usual, intellectually dishonest justification (i.e., we need to look at different "viewpoints" as though hate against GLBTs was just one of several valid "opinions"). Obama fucked up.

Deal with it, and please don't post any more insulting bullshit like this.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. If I see an opportunity to succeed in spite of failure, I appreciate it
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 07:20 PM by MrScorpio
From what I understand, most other people do as well.

Unless of course, you feel that the last words have been spoken in terms of the rights of LBGT people.

And we both know that that isn't true.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #74
118. +1
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
76. Concur w/your political assessment.
Obamaz promise of an inclusive administration did not come with any caveats. Twill very likely happen again that he includes those we vehemently disagree with. We also seem to fail to realize that the religious vein Warren represents feels much the same moral indignation regarding baby-killing pro-choice Lowery that we do about homophobic misogynistic Warren.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
89. The new Five Year Plan will surely fill the potato bins
and drive out the kulaks and counterrevolutionaries!

All hail the glorious people's revolution!
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
90. Hmmm, as an Etheridge fan I wonder if he'll attend this show...
on Inauguration day. Etheridge stood up for Warren. Now will Warren step into her "territory" on a day when they are in the same town celebrating the same event?

http://www.metroweekly.com/gauge/?ak=3942

Hmmm...Thelma Houston, Cyndi Lauper and Rufus Wainwright, too.


Actually, thank you, I enjoyed this post, even if I am totally bummed out by P.E. Obama's decision.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
91. I don't think it's appropriate to thank Obama.
I'm down with you saying "take advantage of this situation, run with it" - and I can appreciate that portion of your message.

But let's be clear - If we win equal rights it will be because of the efforts of the glbt community and allies, and those are the people we should be thankful to.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
92. Rick Warren is a bigot that believes that man and dinosaur coexisted 6,000 years ago
You can't appeal to a man that holds irrational beliefs such as his.

Our only challenge is to get close enough to that anti-Semitic, misogynist, homophobe fat ass to hit him with our shoes. Personally, I would rather go quayle hunting with Warren!
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. I love quayle hunting.


Joking aside, you said a mouthful. We can't really appeal to him on his terms. Other measures will have to be found.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. BINGO!
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
101. Oh THANK you! THAAAAAAANK YOU!!!!!11
Good heavens.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
102. This post is the reason why friends don't let friends Post While Intoxicated. n/t
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
107. You have alot of nerve. n/t
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
109. Are you out of your mind?
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
116. I think that some good will eventually come of it.
I just can't ignore the pain it's causing now.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
120. I Know You Mean Well, Mr. Scorpio
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 06:54 PM by Crisco
And there's nothing so healthy for democracy as a national dialogue.

My question is, 'who is doing the talking on the other side?'

Warren? You know what he's saying? He's running to his echo chamber and saying, "Look at all the nasty pissed off queers and the mean hateful things they're saying about me."

The people GLBT and their supporters need to have the dialogue with are people outside of Democratic Underground and our comfortable echo chambers. Offline, where people have to look you in the eye, I don't have a problem with that. It's the online communities full of drive-by hipsters where it's nearly impossible to have an honest dialog that makes me shudder.
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