I am Christian and I believe that civil rights for my gay brothers and sisters IS a Christian value.

[Danger Mouse]

     I know that many Christians point to the Bible and shout that homosexuality is an abomination. Yet they conveniently ignore the parts dictating what sort of clothing they should wear or what kind of food they should eat. The Bible is what you make of it...if you want to be hateful, then sure, you can justify all sorts of hate with it. But if you want to be loving, if you want to be kind and forgiving, there's lots of stuff in the Bible that backs that up, too. You don't need to follow a book to know how to live, but there are some really nice passages in there that might make you think a little. That's how I feel about it.

     Maybe that makes me a bad Christian. In the books of some, I'm hardly a Christian at all...I mean, I don't think the Bible is inerrant, and I don't spout that 'love the sinner, hate the sin' garbage either. Gays are not sinners, they are our brothers and sisters, and they are the way God made them...I would not ask them to change, and it's stupid and hurtful to demand of them to change. While I think it's wrong to insult Christians just because they are Christians, I do NOT think Christianity is untouchable. It SHOULD be criticized, especially when people use it as a cover for their bigotry. Rick Warren is the classic Christian bigot. He spouts the passages from the Bible that back up his narrow-minded hate, yet ignores the passages about love, forgiveness, kindness towards others. Until Christianity is no longer used as a tool to spread homophobia, the struggle for civil rights for all will continue to be difficult.

     I'm doing what I can. As a Sunday School teacher, I teach the message that gay people are to be accepted for what they are, not feared or reviled. There is no 'us and them' but people with evil hearts make it so. I believe that while some people are denied their rights, nobody is truly free. I believe that too many people take their rights for granted and have trouble seeing how much those without the same rights are suffering. I believe that those of us who are progressive Christians need to do our best to break the influence of fundamentalist bigotry on Christianity as a whole. I believe that Obama meant well in picking Rick Warren to speak, but he made a mistake. The timing and the venue were poor choices, and it's just rubbing salt on an open wound.

     I hope everybody has a safe and happy holiday season. I hope that someday soon we can look at this organized discrimination as a thing of the past. With each passing generation the old hatreds slowly die. With time, and our best efforts, gradually this too shall pass. The hatred of the narrow minded and weak will not stop us and will not silence us. We all share the same cause and the same struggle, because equal rights for some is equal rights for NONE. My brothers and sisters, here is one Christian who will not feel right inside until each and every one of you has the full right to MARRIAGE.

[grannylib]

1. I'm with ya...my dad was a Lutheran minister for 50 years, and he

always told me, "Honey, as long as you come down on the side of love and not judgment, you've got your theology straight." (No anti-gay pun intended!)
Check out my journal here on DU for my essay on the whole 'gay marriage threatens "traditional" marriage' thing, if you'd like...

Keep up the good fight! :hug:

[Danger Mouse]

2. Your dad sounds like he was a good minister and I probably would've liked him.

A good minister understands that love is the most important thing of all.

[grannylib]

8. He was the best, IMHO, but I'm probably biased *lol*

[jwirr]

10. Absolutely.

[roguevalley]

15. I love this OP. I agree with you, honey. Merry Christmas.

[BeFree]

3. Ok

I can dig why we want to pull religion into this:
Because the other side uses religion as their excuse to deny others their rights as a human being.

But let us strive to see this in non-religious terms.
We can argue that by denying anybody their rights as a human being, we are allowing others the power to deny us our rights.

Fact is there are many people out there who thrive on denying others their rights. It used to be a whole hell of a lot worse in this country, and in some countries it is still a whole hell of a lot worse.

Recognize and celebrate that we have made progress.
Then recognize that much progress is yet to be made.

[Danger Mouse]

4. Oh, I see it in both terms, religious and non.

Religious because it is my fellow Christians that are helping to spread this hate, and non-Christian because of course all creeds and religions are involved in this struggle, atheists and agnostics too.

[NYC_SKP]

5. You are, of course, correct.

Christians who hate? That doesn't make sense. Loud mouthed bible thumping homophobes missed the lessons on love and inclusion.

And I've got a new analogy I use in defending the "same sex marriage is a civil rights matter" argument.

Nobody has been able to counter this one.

Women, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders, blacks, divorced persons, etc., are able to hold office and become judges.

It seems to me, that as marriage has become a state sanctioned and state recognized matter and is a religious matter only in some cases, it has to be interpreted in the same way as the ability of one to hold office (or get a job in the private sector).

Thus, all the criteria that requires the law to be blind to gender with respect to qualification must be interpreted to apply also to the gender of either party in a marriage.

I'm no lawyer or judge, but I can easily see this being fundamental to a state or federal supreme court argument regarding equal access to the act of marriage.

:shrug:

[MercutioATC]

6. Religion is always interprerative.

I'm atheist, so I think it's all a nice fairy tale...but I support a group of people's right to form a little club and set their own rules (as long as they don't receive government money).

If a church wants to blatantly discriminate against gays...or blacks...or people of Italian descent...or women........or people born in March...that should be their right.

Having somebody read the invocation at an inauguration is nothing more than letting a random person "cast a spell". It has nothing to do with decision-making or policy or, really, anything else. Warren is going to stand behind a lectern and cast a spell.

Who cares?

The potential upside is this:

1) No President can bring about change by leading half a nation. Regardless of differences, we need to find some common ground and all work together.

2) Including people like Warren in the process...not in policy-making, just the process...gives credence to Obama's stated desire to avail himself of bipartisan input.

3) There will always be those who refuse to change their minds, but many will view gestures like this as evidence that Obama isn't another cookie-cutter Dem.

And, most importantly...

4) The dog and pony show aside, if Obama wants to be an effective President, he needs to connect with a majority of the population. Not just Democrats, but Republicans and Independents and people with absolutely no political affiliation...and he needs that connection to be real.

For decades, it's been "us against them". Republicans hold power and advance their agenda...until something goes wrong and public sentiment changes. Democrats do the same thing. Both parties view America as a battlefield...more concerned with gaining some slim advantage than ending the war.

Obama has the opportunity to do things differently. His Warren pick follows that goal of inclusion. That may be distressing to some because of their personal agendas, but I believe it's a good thing.

"We are one people. We are one nation." What did you think that meant?

[patrice]

7. You are doing just like the person for whom this day is named.

Just exactly as The Bible shows us that Jesus did, each one of us is supposed to FREELY choose Right or Wrong, not for ANY "quid pro quo", but for whatever the ("divine") Principle is in itself. We are to do our best in trying to figure out Right and Wrong, make a choice, and then surrender our actions to the Truth. Each of us is supposed to stake his/her OWN life on it, not someone else's, and the fates of each of our "eternal soul"s will be determined by who/whatever "God" is as a result of each one of our choices.

Thank you for teaching Sunday School, Elrond Hubbard! That's a very IMPORTANT task and I am glad that YOU are doing it.

Merry CHRISTmas!

:grouphug:

[RiverStone]

9. Civil Rights are a human value

That are inherently deserved in every being - regardless of what religion (or not) one sees it through.

I never found anything of value in Sunday School, but maybe if you were my teacher...:)


peace~

[firedupdem]

11. Nice Post. Recommended ! n/t

[AntiFascist]

12. K&R, thank you for that!

I grew up going to Sunday school and attended a similar type of religious program in my early teens. I recall that they distributed a book intended for sex education purposes and one page pointed out that "if you know of someone who is homosexual you should avoid them and not be their friend". I'm not making this up, this is exactly what was in the text. At that point I realized that organized religions, such as that one, could be used to promote some very anti-Christian values.

[Danger Mouse]

19. Love is the answer.

To counter all the hate. It's the only answer.
It's hard, but we can't beat hate with hate, and hate is our enemy.
The root of that hate is fear.
Fear of God? Of the unknown?

[Blarch]

31. The bible is full of hate and war...

all directed by your god.

Why spin the bible at this point ? It is what it is.

[TexasObserver]

37. You fail to distinguish between the Old and New Testaments.

I'm not a Christian, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Conflating Christianity with ancient Hebraic rules is disingenuous, and does Christianity a disservice. And again, I find modern Christianity an embarrassment for what it has become, but I recognize that Jesus was a radical departure from the ancient standards.

[Danger Mouse]

39. The bible has more than just 'hate and war' in it.

[The Doctor.]

13. K+R. There is more support than many seem to realize.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4716492

[polichick]

14. Yep - it's a Christian value for Christians who care about Jesus' teachings.

[pleah]

16. K&R! :) n/t

[TygrBright]

17. That's my Christ, too!

You know, the guy who hung out with hookers and saloon keepers and tax scammers and suchlike, because they needed his love the most.

That guy.

Homophobia. Yeah, right.

I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

Not MY Christ.

(Happy Christmas, all!)

affirmatively,
Bright

[Clio the Leo]

18. The clothes and the shell fish thing....

(you didn't mention shellfish but it's often used in this same line of argument) is from the old Testament ... a dead law to Christians .... the laws forbidding homosexuality are in the New Testament.

So it's not a matter of picking and choosing. I can go into a more in depth discussion if you like but a simple reading of Hebrews 9 makes it abundantly clear. ;)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=HEBREWS%209;&version=49;

Sorry .... didn't meant to interrupt you .... I stand ready to vote AGAINST any constitutional amendment that tries to define marriage as being limited only to heterosexuals. God made us all fee moral agents and the US Constitution ... or any state law should NOT impeded on that right.

But the whole shell fish argument always strikes a nerve with me. :)

[Danger Mouse]

20. "A dead law to Christians"...only when it's convenient.

They love to cite the passages from the OT that calls homosexuality an abomination, though.
Selective reading. :P

[Raster]

23. Actually, what is said about homosexuality in the New Testament is in despute....

further, there is nothing attributable to Christ about homosexuality.

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html

Mainline Christian denominations in this country are bitterly divided over the question of homosexuality. For this reason it is important to ask what light, if any, the New Testament sheds on this controversial issue. Most people apparently assume that the New Testament expresses strong opposition to homosexuality, but this simply is not the case. The six propositions that follow, considered cumulatively, lead to the conclusion that the New Testament does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

<snip>

Proposition 1: Strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality.

<snip>

Proposition 2: At most, there are only three passages in the entire New Testament that refer to what we today would call homosexual activity.

<snip>

Proposition 3: Two of the three passages that possibly refer to homosexuality are simply more-or-less miscellaneous catalogues of behaviors that are regarded as unacceptable, with no particular emphasis placed on any individual item in the list.

<snip>

Proposition 4: It may well be that the two lists of unacceptable behaviors—1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11—do not refer to homosexuality at all.

<snip>

Proposition 5: Even if 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 do refer to homosexuality, what they likely have in mind is not homosexuality per se but rather one particular form of homosexuality that was regarded as especially exploitive and degrading.

<snip>

Proposition 6: The one passage in the New Testament that almost certainly does refer to homosexuality is based on some highly debatable presuppositions about its nature and causes.

<snip>

Conclusion: The New Testament really does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

<snip>

[JohnnieGordon]

24. Unfortunately you're probably talking to a hit and run

Who thinks tacking a smiling face at the end of sentence that says homosexuality is a sin, makes it all better.

[Raster]

25. You're probably right. Is "Johnnie" your real first name?

If so, we have something in common.

[JohnnieGordon]

26. It's John, and my last name isn't Gordon

Johnnie Gordon is meant to rhyme with singer I like, Lonnie Gordon. If I made it rhyme with my favorite diva, I'd be Johnna Summer, but then everyone would think I was female.

[Danger Mouse]

28. Wow. Thanks for this.

:hi:

[Raster]

29. My pleasure. Happiest of Holidays!

Next time the haters get you down: Christ said NOTHING about homosexuals or homosexuality. Christ specifically mentioned helping the poor 26 times. I wonder what his priority was?

[Blarch]

21. lol.

You really need to read ALL the bible.

Stop the cherry picking already.

[Danger Mouse]

22. Cherry picking what?

I've read most of it, not all. There's good stuff in there as well as awful. :shrug:

[Blarch]

30. Leviticus 18:22

[Raster]

33. Ah yes, Leviticus 18:22...the smite the fags part of the OT...

speaking of cherry-picking... Let's not forget the other directives in Leviticus:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend
the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other
specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is,
how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don.t agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room
here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn.t we just burn them to
death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with
their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident
you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is
eternal and unchanging.

[Blarch]

35. Go ahead, make jokes.

But tens of millions of Americans take that shit very seriously. In their eyes, god is never wrong.

[TexasObserver]

34. You mean the part that outlaws eating shrimp and pork?

Or the part that mandates death by stoning for anyone who doesn't honor their parents?

Or the part that mandates death by stoning for anyone committing adultery?

I'll be your Huckleberry, faux Bible scholar. Let's go.

[Danger Mouse]

38. I already told you I don't believe that the Bible is inerrant.

so your point is moot.

[TexasObserver]

27. I am not a Christian, but I believe Jesus would agree that gays deserve full civil rights.

I don't see much of Jesus in Christianity. The good parts of Jesus can be found in many religions, or in no religion.

[Orsino]

32. Christian in the sense of "Christ-like" rather than "endorsed by most Christian churches"...

...the latter sense being clouded by all that hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner subterfuge.

[xchrom]

36. recommend

[treestar]

40. I agree, I don't see where Christianity has to take this point of view

If it appears to, it is because it was cultural at the time. Nobody expects those alive in the year 30 to have a 21st century view.

Taking the Bible literally is impossible. Only the worst nutcase will even try - take polygamy - many a fundie wouldn't believe in that - yet is exists in the Bible.

Homosexuality was an abomination to that society because it didn't result in more people - same reason that guy spilling his seed was guilty or whatever.

[DailyGrind51]

41. I am Christian of the Catholic sub-set and I agree with you!

I am also divorced, prohibiting me from remarrying without an annulment, or having my second marriage (not that I am planning one) unrecognized by my church. I don't think that makes much sense either.