No need to revisit the primaries. Hillary would have done just as much good/bad.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

Despite all the ferocity of a contested election there's not much idealogical difference between the two.

The only models were have for a Democratic presidency in the last generation are Clinton and Carter. Carter was run out of town on a rail. Clinton left office with the highest approval ratings of any president on his last day in office since maybe the 1920s. (Of presidents who didn't die in office - FDR & JFK)

Any really ambitious Democrat who wants to succeed as president is going to be a LOT more like Bill Clinton than not. There is good and bad in that.

As a Hillary supporter in the primaries I can say that I think she would have done as much really good stuff and as much really messed up stuff as Obama.

I think Obama is a very talented man doing a fine job so far. An exemplary job. I don't think it is seamless or flawless, but it's a hell of a transition so far and good for the country.

But when he does something awful that's just what it is. Bitching about something like Rick Warren is not (or at least doesn't have to be) crapping on Obama. It's not a referendum on whether Obama is good Spock or bad Spock. It's about a specific action.

On balance he's great. And his chief competitor would have been great. And both would have pissed me off all the time with Clintonian bullshit. (And Edwards would have also, IMO)

I hope Obama is not swallowed up by the shear magnitude of the problems we face. It's a tough hand to play for anyone! But he has a fighting chance and will be as good a president as Hillary would have been, or better. I certainly want him to succeed.

[snowbear]

1. Oh there you go making sense again!

.
.

And just when this place was going to hell in a handbasket, you had to step in and post a thread that made perfect sense.

[scheming daemons]

2. I predict this thread will sink off the front page in short order.... it makes too much sense...

[babylonsister]

3. You have been stirring the pot. Not helpful, but that's what you're good

at. Now you like him? You have crapped on Obama endlessly. Yes, Warren was a bad choice, but to feed it is sick and suspect. I'm done, but I do read. And this is bullshit from you.

[Joe the Revelator]

4. ...

:fistbump:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. You read what you want to see, apparently.

I have been a staunch defender of Obama throughout this transition. Often an over the top defender.

I have, and will, criticize him mercilessly on the Warren thing because I believe it is truly wrong.

But aside from that I have been praising him to the skies, and with utter sincerity!

If you identify being anti-Warren with being anti-Obama, that's what it is.

[babylonsister]

9. Yes, you've been merciless.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8005890

But in my search, I found this and loved it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8008633

So I'm done looking. We do what we have to, and good luck.

[ruggerson]

12. You played this game with me

back during the McClurkin episode.

Turns out we were right and you were wrong.

Regardless, I have defended Obama since the primaries ended on numerous occasions, and actually been thanked by you for doing so. During this debacle, I have never once called him a "homophobe" or said I would support impeachment, to the contrary, I've said that I'm thrilled we will have a President who will be forward looking on so many issues. The prospect of Bush leaving and Obama taking over makes me very relieved.

But don't expect me not to defend my family, LOUDLY, when he does things that harm us. And don't condescend to me, or anyone, by attributing our very real anger to "stirring the pot" or some kind of fake anti-Obama agenda you have concocted in your head.

The anger is real here. Not "faux" (a word you loved to throw around to injure people.) It's sincere and it's real and it's valid.

[babylonsister]

16. You are a pill. I 'played the game'?

Bite me. You are a jerk.

[ruggerson]

18. and you don't know how to differentiate between people

who are legitimately and honestly criticizing Obama and those few who are using issues to jump on someone they already dislike. You question Kurt's motives and thus his character and you think that's perfectly okay.

It ain't.

[babylonsister]

20. Wrong, ruggerson. I spend a lot more time on here than you do.

And the motives are glaring.

And for the record, I've been trying to stay out of this mess. Guess I failed.

[ruggerson]

22. why would you want to stay out of this mess?

why wouldn't you want to stand up loudly for the gay people in your life that you love? I know you're a good person, so I know the instinct is there. IT's ok to criticize our guy occasionally, when he does something fucked up. Especially on this subject, because he basically TOLD us he wants us to force his hand. REmember that Roosevelt quote - I agree with you, now make me do it. (paraphrasing)

[babylonsister]

23. Because of the stuff I took from the gay community when I spoke

my mind during McClurkin. I swore I'd never do it again, because there are some people who just won't let it go, and never understood my pro-gay pov. Hell, I was reviled. And you know that.

I really have tried to avoid this, and hate the animosity. :(

[ruggerson]

26. well the problem

with the McClurkin thing was that many of us were really upset because of the "pray away the gay" angle (which has a HUGE impact on gay teenagers, especially in the SOuth) and we had the trolls on this board accusing us of "faux outrage" because some of us supported Hillary. To this day, there are assholes here who believe that. Even *after* Prop 8 showed how the McCLurkins of the world lead to dangerous ballot initiatives.

All I'm asking is for you to use your judgement. If you feel Obama screwed up on this and it upsets you, then feel free to say it. It doesn't mean we don't think he is going to be a great President. It doesn't mean we think he's a homophobe. It means we think he's a human being who has the occasional tin ear on this issue and needs to have his own peeps push him hard in the right direction.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. Those are ironic choices

Both things you linked are critiques of Duers, not of Obama.

Criticizing someone who happens to have chosen to wrap themselves in the flag of Obama is not an attack on Obama, however much they might want to see it that way.

[ruggerson]

14. anyone who deviates from a prescribed agenda

is "stirring the pot" you realize.

It could never, ever be authentic.

[babylonsister]

15. So then add your own. nt

[ruggerson]

17. I can add them for him from memory

he's defended Obama in the face of people disgruntled with cabinet choices, his bailout vote and his vote on wiretap issues. Quite often and quite strongly.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. Not wiretap issues. The FISA vote pissed me off. But on balance, yes.

[babylonsister]

21. Hmm. Me, too. But I'm not ready to throw him away. What's the choice?

I do think we need to let him get elected, and do his stuff. I think the guy has a lot of stuff.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

25. I don't think he should have honored Warren, but that's no reason to

withdraw support... I've supported people through worse.

There were times I almost hated Bill Clinton. There were times I loved him.

But mostly I was just glad he won, and glad he was re-elected. Just winning in the first place is the biggest hurdle. Obama cleared it so he has already done so much good that he has a large reservoir of goodwill to draw on with me.

I can hardly imagine what Obama could do that would make me not vote for him again.

My father voted for John Anderson in 1980 over some speciffic thing Carter did that I don't even remember. That really pissed me off. You vote for the best available outcome, not out of pique.

[joshcryer]

27. I too have supported him throughout the transition, but he's getting enough flack over Warren...

...so I'll let you guys do all the painful reality checking.

[JVS]

28. There seems to be quite a bit of pot stirring lately

[elkston]

30. Honestly, I've seen more pro-Obama posts from K&H than criticisms.

At least since the GE began, that is.

[Occam Bandage]

5. It's all fun and games until it threatens to drag our personal sacred cow into the fire. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

11. I react to the gestalt of the board, and find the "do you regret your primary choice" stuff foolish

The fact that a lot of the sharpest tongued gay Duers happened to have been for Hillary way back when is being used to turn the Warren thing into being about Hillary, which is craziness.

I am offended by the idea that Hillary wouldn't have done anything like this, because she certainly would have. It's cheap and dumb and false for anyone to twist that knife.

And I am offended by the idea that because Barack did this that it is beyond criticism, and that any criticism of Rick fricking Warren must be motivated by Hillary love.

It is wrong for anyone to dismiss principled views with, "Well that's no surprise... you supported Hillary."

And it is wrong (and downright absurd) for anyone to suggest that Hillary wouldn't have centered-up and triangulated like crazy.

It seems that a lot of Obama primary supporters saw the McClurkin thing as a meaningless candidate battle, which it was not. It was heartfelt for most.

Then they see the same arguments from the same people and go, "Oh, more fake outrage from the Obama haters."

But it was not all fake outrage, and of course the arguments are the same because they are very similar situations.

[WeDidIt]

7. I definitely want him to succeed

Doesn't make me any happier with him right now.

Doesn't mean I'll ever donate another penny to him, phonebank, or canvas for him ever again, either.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't support a primary challenge in 2012.

[Beacool]

8. True, Hillary would have made mistakes, just not this one.

Hillary has had close gay staffers and friends for too many years not to have been more sensitive to their needs and wouldn't have hurt them like this.

Though she's all too human and makes mistakes like anyone else.

;-)

[Brooklyns_Finest]

10. Who knows what Hillary would have done

Somebody posted an old thread from a year ago where Hillary is attending a Sattleback meeting. She may have not picked Warren or someone like him, but I don't think she would have been any better on gay rights than Obama will be. When it comes to actual policy that is.

[Beacool]

31. That meeting was on AIDS

and I don't see a problem when a candidate campaigns in a turf that it's not traditionally within his/her base. Obama and McCain also went to Saddleback.

But, and to many people it's a big but, a Democratic president should not have asked Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. He stands for too many things that are anathema with the beliefs of the people who voted for him.

:-(

[Lilyeye]

29. You don't have a clue about what type of mistakes Hillary would or wouldn't have made.

[Beacool]

32. Of course not.

Do we know ourselves what mistakes we'll make in the future? No one knows what mistakes they'll make or they would avoid making them in the first place.

But due what I've seen of Hillary over the years personally and also working with her staff during the various Clinton campaigns, I could almost be sure that she would never have asked Warren to give the invocation. An invitation to the WH prayer meeting? Yes. The invocation at her inauguration? No way!!!

;)

[grantcart]

24. very generous post

[LWolf]

33. You got one thing right, anyway:

"Despite all the ferocity of a contested election there's not much idealogical difference between the two."

Which is why I supported neither, and had no hope for a positive outcome as of last January, when they were the only two left standing.

To be honest, I found DLC Queen HRC more liberal than Obama, which appalled me.

I'm still appalled.

If I revisit the primaries, it is to note that I had no acceptable choice after the first two primaries and the first 2 caucuses. 4 states unacceptably limited the choices of 44 others.

I don't forget, and I don't forgive.