Rick Warren is a Southern Baptist. Saddleback is a Southern Baptist church.

[Critters2]

Here's what Southern Baptists believe:

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp


Please note the subservience of women and the equating of homosexuality with adultery and pornography. Oh, and official anti-choice position.

Yeah, there was just NO ONE else who could've given the invocation. :eyes:

[Renew Deal]

1. So are we supposed to hate the baptists now?

Someone tell Hillary.

[Maat]

44. The shining epitomy of the Religious Hardright is the ..

SOUTHERN Baptist CONVENTION.

They don't represent all Baptists (e.g. the American Baptists), but they do represent the WORST of American religious beliefs.

[Champion Jack]

2. Enough already

Why, in 2008, do we even have to have a representative of any organized superstition involved at all?

[Renew Deal]

4. Because most people are "superstitious"

Including most of the people that voted for Obama,

[Jennicut]

14. Come on. I am very religious, not "superstitious" but I think religion should not

be involved in politics at all. Just because someone is religious does not mean they want it in the political process, i think it has been used as a weapon instead of for good and there is that separation of church and state thingie. But to put down people for being religious is kind of not cool. And I think Obama's choice of Rick Warren is not a good thing either.

[Clio the Leo]

3. And on the 8th day, God made the DU "hide thread" button. NT

[Renew Deal]

6. lol

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

7. Heh. I tried hide thread yesterday. Every time I hid one thread

5 more popped up that were hide-worthy.

After 30 minutes of doing nothing but hide thread, I gave up.

[Bill McBlueState]

5. that's worth noting

I suspect the idea that there are *denominations* with *official positions* on things would come as a surprise to a lot of megachurch Christians.

[Critters2]

8. A lot of megachurches like to keep their denominational connections a secret.

But Saddleback is a member of the SBC, and Warren's standing is with the SBC. And the SBC doesn't countenance dissent. If you're an SBC pastor, you believe these things. Warren is an SBC pastor.

[Maat]

45. Precisely, Mycritters2.

I did quite a bit of research on the Southern Baptists when my in-laws went nuts and joined.

[marimour]

9. Thanks for letting me know what I believe.

I guess I'm now a pro-life, anti-women, anti-gay woman. Southern baptists are more than just members of that group. My Atlanta baptist church isn't a part of that delegation but I am a Southern Baptist. Actually most churches I see in the south are Baptist churches. Don't make assumptions based on what the leaders of one group, who don't represent the majority of southern baptists believe.

[phleshdef]

12. The site he is linking to is the site for the Southern Baptist Convention which is an organization..

...and probably one of the biggest Southern Baptist organizations, if not THE biggest. They do have an official doctrine and their official doctrine is exactly what the OP said it was. You may be a Baptist from the south but that does not make you a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. Context.

[marimour]

22. and being a member of the SBC does not mean your current pastor believes those things.

It means the pastor who was pastor when the church joined the SBC believed those things. My pastor disagrees with some of the official positions of our Black Baptist convention but hes not just going to leave one that we have been a member of for almost 100 years. He just doesn't preach those things in our church. He never preaches about homosexuality or abortion. He lets people make their own decisions about those issues and just leads as an example of tolerance by welcoming openly gay members. I highly doubt that all SBC pastors use their pulpits as outlets for hate either.

[phleshdef]

25. I grew up in the bible belt, MOST Christian leaders I knew believe its a sin to be gay...

...of course some of them also believed it was a sin to listen to rock music.

Regardless, I think its safe to say that "homosexuality is a sin" is an idea that a vast number of Christians in this country share.

This is one of the reasons I'm not a Christian anymore, I just can't buy into the obsession with controlling people's personal lives.

Of course there are pastors that are exceptions.

[Critters2]

26. If your church belongs to a black Baptist convention, you're not SBC.

There are almost no blacks in the SBC. Indeed, it was founded on, and split with northern Baptists because of, its support of slavery. Your church is probably a member of the National Baptist Convention, the Progressive National Baptist Convention, or the Missionary Baptist Church, all of which allow for MUCH more dissent than the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBC was taken over by conservatives in the 70's and 80's. They drove liberals out, declared once ordained women no longer clergy, and started making statements on social issues they had once left to individual conscience--like gender equality, glbt issues, abortion. They also, for the first time ever REQUIRED clergy and member churches to affirm doctrinal statements, something other Baptist denominations find absolutely anathema. Roger Williams founded the Baptist Church to have no creedal tests. In this, the SBC has broken with its Baptist roots.

If your church belongs to one of the black Baptist conventions, it may be a Baptist church in the South, but it is not a Southern Baptist Church. I have nothing but respect for Baptists other than the SBC, having graduated from an American Baptist seminary myself.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. You are not SBC at all

unless you are a member of a denomination that in 1968 only had 11% of their congregations allow African Americans to worship with them. A denomination that came to exist as seperate from other Baptists largely as a pro-slavery pro-white supremacy statement. A denomination that 'apologized' for the racism and pro-slavery stance in 1989, or so. Not 1889, 19.
Is that the denomination to which you belong? That is the denomination that Warren belongs to, and he has clearly said he is proud of the history of his denomination.

[Maat]

47. That's fine, EXCEPT ...

if you are affiliated with a parent organization, you and your church kick money up to that organization. In my humble opinion, it is morally reprehensible to kick money up to the Southern Baptist Convention. If a person is a part of an organization that kicks money up to a hardright, anti-female, anti-GLBTQ organization, then they have to take responsibility for that.

That's why I'm a Unitarian-Universalist; I'm proud of the stands National takes (www.uua.org).

[jberryhill]

50. Some denominations enforce uniformity rigidly, others do not

The SBC does.

[DevonRex]

13. Yep. Just like Catholics, Southern Baptists are pretty diverse in their

beliefs.

[Critters2]

17. To be ordained, Southern Baptist pastors are required to affirm these beliefs.

To hold membership in the SBC, churches must also state these beliefs. Individual lay people may differ, but churches and pastors are required to affirm these beliefs. The SBC is more rigid in this way than nearly any other Protestant denomination.

[jberryhill]

51. Not all Baptists in the South are "Southern Baptists" - It is a specific group

It's sort of like flying on United and Delta and saying that you flew "American Airlines".

Well, yes you did, but not THE American Airlines.

[Critters2]

15. "That group" is the Southern Baptist Convention. And unlike other Baptist groups

which do allow for dissent, if your church is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, it has officially agreed to these statements. You may not personally believe these things, but your pastor and your church do.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. Part of the SBC, though?

That is their stand on those issues, is it not? I mean, that's why Jimmy Carter left, isn't it?

I guess I'm looking for some clarification here - is your church part of the SBC?

[jberryhill]

49. A lot of people confuse southern Baptists with the SBC

Yes, there are a lot of Baptist churches in the south. Most of them are independent congregations or aligned with smaller denominational groups than "The" "Southern Baptist Convention".

Unfortunately because of the name, a lot of people do not understand the difference between (a) a church which is Baptist and in the south, and (b) A Southern Baptist (TM) Church.

[Critters2]

53. Actually, most white Baptist churches in the south ARE SBC.

It's the largest Protestant denomination in this country, with relatively few churches in the North. It has a HUGE presence in the South. NOt all Baptist churches in the South are SBC, but the vast majority of white ones, at least, are.

[slackmaster]

10. Here's what a commentator for the Roman Catholic Church has to say about the subject

This pretty well covers the major issues that are being discussed in the various Rick Warren threads.

http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=31157

[Critters2]

29. The "homosexual equivalency movement"?

Scary stuff that!

[slackmaster]

31. This is what we are up against

The RCC has the attention of a lot of people. Catholics are not sheep who always do as they are told, but the church has a great deal of influence.

We have a lot of teaching to do, and screaming "Bigot!" in their faces is NOT how we will win this war.

[Critters2]

32. Neither will inviting them to our important moments.

The gay community needs to be radicalized and make its voice heard. Now!

[slackmaster]

33. The Presidential inauguration is an important moment for all of us

Not just the gay community, or Democrats, or people who voted for Obama.

[Critters2]

34. Where are the racists and anti-semites? Oh, right. Only hatred of gays and women is acceptable. n

[Bluenorthwest]

37. That's different, you know....

"I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus," Obama told ABC News, "but I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group."
"He didn't just cross the line," Obama said. "He fed into some of the worst stereotypes that my two young daughters are having to deal with today in America. The notions that as young African-American women -- who I hope will be athletes -- that that somehow makes them less beautiful or less important. It was a degrading comment. It's one that I'm not interested in supporting."


Because a joker's words have more impact than a preacher on the Presidential stage, you see. And because you are right. Obama accepts hatred towrard us that he does not accept toward others.
Does he not know that other kids are hearing Warren's hate as a personal attack? And seeing Obama support that bigotry?

[Occam Bandage]

11. This reminds me of the anti-Kennedy religious arguments.

Not equating Warren to Kennedy, of course, but this type of argument is the exact same as the ones launched against Kennedy for being Catholic. "Catholics believe that the Pope is the supreme authority! The President can't be subservient to a foreign power! Catholics believe that all nations are part of the Church! We can't be turning our foreign policy over to a religion! That would violate the Constitution!"

[Critters2]

21. Except that those statements were either bullshit or misstating Catholic doctrine.

I've linked directly to the SBC page. This really IS what they believe.

That, and Warren isn't running for President. Yet

[Bill McBlueState]

27. no, there's a significant difference

Instead of comparing Warren to Kennedy, you should be comparing Warren to a Catholic priest or bishop.

If Kennedy had chosen a Catholic bishop to speak at his inauguration, everyone would assume that the bishop agreed with official Catholic positions. Similarly, if Obama chooses a Southern Baptist pastor to speak at his inauguration, it's not crazy to assume that the pastor agrees with official Southern Baptist positions.

[bluedawg12]

28. Warrens doctrine speaks for itself and we haven't elected him to anything

and would not.

Warren sees gay civil rights as a moral issue, we see it as a legal issue.

The President elect needs to work on the legal issue, that's his job, we don't need him to be our proxy with evangelicals for outreach, thank you very much.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. Exactly. Out of the entire U.S. there was only a right wing homophobe ....

He was the ONLY ONE that could've possibly given a speech at Obama's inauguration. That's the real reason Obama picked him. There was no one else available anywhere on the ENTIRE planet.

[Critters2]

18. I know. Stunning, isn't it? nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. nt

[slackmaster]

35. Not only that, the guy is under 50 years old

As a senior citizen, I am outraged!

This could be worse for our country than Y2K.

[bluedawg12]

20. Here's what Rick Warren believes

The invited guest honoring our new President Elect.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/16/7415

"Rick Warren: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

Steven Waldman: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

Rick Warren: Oh I do. …"

[Critters2]

23. And that's acceptable to a surprising number of DUers. nt

[xchrom]

24. recommend

[Lars39]

30. The SBC article about Warren being chosen:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=29535&ref=BPNews-RSSFeed1218
Gay activists outraged over Warren invite

<snip>
"I'm encouraged that President-elect Obama would select Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration," Land told Baptist Press. "First, it is a signal that President-elect Obama is going to employ a big-tent philosophy in his administration's approach to people who may disagree with them on some issues, but not others. His selection of Rick Warren indicates that people who disagree with the president-elect on sanctity of life issues are not automatically persona non grata at the White House in an Obama administration. It also indicates that the president-elect is not buying the radical homosexual activists' argument that anyone who opposes them on the gay marriage issue should be ostracized as a bigot."



Bolding is mine. Bottom line: the SBC sees Warren being chosen for this honor as a positive.

[tnlefty]

38. Thanks for the link!

When I read Richard Land's comments I almost puked.

I hope you're doing well. :hi:

[Lars39]

39. Hi, tnlefty!

Truly discouraging, isn't it?
Other than a cold, I'm doing great! Hope you're having a good almost-holiday, too. :h:

[mwei924]

40. Unfortunately, an entire region of the country seems to really like it.

[alwysdrunk]

41. Of course he's not buying that bullshit

He himself would be included in that false definition.

[XemaSab]

42. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton are Southern Baptists

W and Cheney are Methodists.

The Kennedys are Catholic.

Harry Reid is Mormon.

Your point? :shrug:

[IndianaJones]

52. I thought Carter and Clinton left the SB Convention due to differences with their positions. nt.

[Critters2]

54. Carter is not Southern Baptist. He's a founding member of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

He left precisely because of people like Rick Warren.

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/10_23/pages/carter.html

[JVS]

46. I've seen very few people saying that Warren is a good choice.

What I take issue with is the claim that because of this choice, Obama is no longer worthy of support.

[kath]

48. Not JUST a Southern Baptist. A Dominionist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8014506

[Critters2]

55. The official position of the SBC is now dominionist. The two things go together. nt

[kath]

56. Eek, I hadn't realized that.

IIRC, Carter (and perhaps others?) left because of the SBC's views on women. I wonder if he is aware of the Dominionist crap??