I apologize and I reverse my position on Warren speaking at the inauguration

[cali]

I just did a half hour of research on Warren. He really is despicable. I read the New Yorker article of 2005 about him and several other pieces.

Obama is making a mistake by having him at the inauguration. And yes, it does send a lousy message. It legitimizes Warren, not that he needs more legitimizing. The MSM has done a fine job of that. He's won accolade after accolade from them.

He's vehemently anti-choice. In fact, he thinks that Obama is no better than a holocaust denier:

"If they (Evangelicals, among whom Warren counts himself) think that life begins at conception, then that means that there are 40 million Americans who are not here that could have voted. They would call that a holocaust, and for them it would like if I'm Jewish and a Holocaust denier is running for office. I don't care how right he is on everything else, it's a deal breaker for me. I'm not going to vote for a Holocaust denier...."

http://blog.beliefnet.com/windowsanddoors/2008/08/rick-warren-abortion-and-the-h.html

He's not the worst of the anti-gay bigots, but he is an anti-gay bigot. And although I don't think every person who opposes marriage equality is a bigot, I do think there's ample evidence that Warren is.

1. God, who always acts out of love and does what is best for us, thought up sex. Sex was God's idea, not ours. Like fire, and many other things God gave us, sex can be used for good, or abused in ways that harm. The Designer of sex has clearly and repeatedly said that he created sex exclusively for husbands and wives in marriage. Whenever God's parameters are violated, it causes broken hearts, broken families, emotional hurt and shame, painful memories, and many other destructive consequences. There would be so STDs in our world if we all played by the rules.

2. God gives me the free choice to follow his commands or willfully disobey them so I must allow others to have that same free choice. Loving, trusting, and obeying God cannot be forced. In America, people already have the civil right to live as they wish.


3. If anyone, whether unfaithful spouses, or unmarried couples, or homosexuals or anyone else think they are smarter than God and chooses to disobey God's sexual instructions, it is not the US government's role to take away their choice. But neither is it the government's role to classify just any "loving" relationship as a marriage. A committed boyfriend-girlfriend relationship is not a marriage. Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage.


4. Much of this debate is not really about civil rights, but a desire for approval. The fact that 70% of blacks supported Prop 8 shows they don't believe it is a civil rights issue. Gays in California already have their rights. What they desire is approval and validation from those who disagree with them, and they are willing to force it by law if necessary. Any disapproval is quickly labeled "hate speech. Imagine if we held that standard in every other disagreement Americans have? There would be no free speech. That's why, on the traditional marriage side, many saw Prop 8 as a free speech issue: Don't force me to validate a lifestyle I disagree with. It is not the same as marriage." And many saw the Teacher's Union contribution of $3 million against Prop 8, as a effort to insure that children would be taught to approve what most parents disapprove of.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/12/should-fire-rick-warren-be-fir.html

Rick Warren is your standard fundy only tarted up.

I was wrong. He should have no place at the inauguration, let alone a prominent on. And that makes Obama flat wrong as well. I don't think this speaks to Obama's beliefs, but I do think it's a political maneuver that sells out not just the GLBT community but women and liberals. He didn't need to do it. He shouldn't have done it.

[terrya]

1. Do people NOT remember the Saddleback Forum earlier this year?

Between Obama and McCain?

Warren hosted it.

I saw all I needed to see about him there.

[yardwork]

5. And I remember how Warren attacked Obama afterwards.

And I remember how Warren claimed that McCain was in a cone of silence when he knew it was a lie.

[LisaM]

9. I do remember it, and I couldn't believe they had it

it was horrible. My only hope is that we have reached a crest of having all this dogma stuffed down our throats. I'm tired of it.

[yardwork]

2. You mean this?

Rick Warren: But the issue to me is, I知 not opposed to that as much as I知 opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I知 opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I知 opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I知 opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

Steven Waldman: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

Rick Warren: Oh I do.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/16/7415

[grantcart]

3. Yep its a mistake

But it is encouraging to see that there are issues that virtually everyone at DU agrees on.


Good reversal on yr earlier OP

[yardwork]

7. Virtually everyone? There are quite a few posts that indicate otherwise.

[crappyjazz]

4. So what got you? the anti gay or the anti-choice stance?

While I appreciate that you take the time to post this, I completely disagree that someone who is not for gay marriage isn't a bigot.

If he was only mildly opposed to gay marriage, that would make him an okay choice?

[yardwork]

6. Anti-choice.

[Genevieve]

17. Reads like anti-choice.

nt

[cali]

24. both. no, I don't believe that everyone who opposes marriage equality is a bigot

and I don't believe that everyone who's anti-abortion hates women. I don't believe Obama is a bigot. There are tons of people who are just, well, stuck. They have problems with change and opening their eyes. I've seen a ton of that. And I've seen people change- like my 75 year old neighbor who is one of the most loving open people I've ever known. A few years back, although she supported civil unions, she didn't see the need for marriage equality. Now she does. But calling her a bigot certainly wasn't the way to change her mind.

[rhett o rick]

30. "There are tons of people who are just, well, stuck." Yes, stuck on that all

humans aren't born equal. Most of these "stuck" people are bigoted. My grandfather was a very sweet man, but he thought the Mexicans shouldn't use the public pools on the same day as the "white people". He was raised that way. The lady in your story, did she think gays were equal humans as others? If she did, why didn't she see the "need" for equality?

[racaulk]

8. Thank you for this, cali.

Thanks for doing the legwork to understand more about Warren and for reporting your findings here.

And thank you for the apology. It is much appreciated. :pals:

[Solon]

15. Don't give cali a pass this quickly, after calling us both stupid and extremist...

cali will be back in old form soon enough, typical of this poster.

[JuniperLea]

22. It takes a solid person to apologize...

To admit she was wrong, to apologize, shows great strength of character, imho.

I've had my share of hair pulling fiascoes with cali... I think I learned from it... and I wouldn't change a thing. I have to give her kudos for this move. Throwing old bones at her is more telling of you than it is of her.

[racaulk]

27. Oh, I'm still upset, don't get me wrong.

But it does take a big person to apologize when they're wrong. If I'm going to come down on someone for saying something hurtful, like cali did earlier, then I'm also going to praise them when they try to make amends. And I do believe that cali was being sincere with this OP.

[Solon]

29. I'm only impressed by actions, not words...

words are cheap, and in cali's case, extremely cheap. Assuming Obama doesn't do anything in a week to rectify this situation, cali will be back complaining about the complainers, just like before.

[cali]

43. oh whatever. I didn't do this for you.

I don't particularly care what you think.

[ecstatic]

10. The average American doesn't know much about Warren's stances

Reading your post has informed me, but if it weren't for the post, I would have never had any interest in looking it up.

I think the people who picked him probably are like most Americans in only looking at the surface and not digging too deeply.

[Solon]

11. Oh? It was the women and liberals you are concerned about now?

Typical, just typical. I guess you are your own EXTREMIST now. :eyes:

Oh, and never again spout off in ignorance you fucking asshole.

[TK421]

12. Your initial reaction pissed me off, and I have to give big Kudos to you

for making this post. :thumbsup:

I have a question, and it might sound strange but do you suppose Obama had some kind of plan in mind when this decision was made? Certainly couldn't have been bridging any divides within the community ( the topic is way too incendiary ). Warren is certainly not the person to do that, but do you have any theories? I'm just really confused about this whole thing is all

[Pale Blue Dot]

13. Always good of you to do research AFTER you call people stupid.

How about doing the research first, next time? It's almost as though you're trying to give ammunition to those who might say that your first impulse is to support Obama blindly.

[JuniperLea]

14. He's offensive, period... gay, straight, Pagan, whatever...

I would like to see religion and all of its trappings forever removed from all of our governmental functions. It's only fair.

He was on the right track with the free will thought, but it still doesn't give any religion the right to foist their beliefs upon the rest. No one is forcing them to marry gay people... no one is forcing them to accept gay people... what they cannot do is deny someone else their rights... what they should not do is hate. But there are no thought police, and if they want to hate, so be it... as long as they keep those nasty, small minded thoughts to themselves. They have no right to define what is and what is not marriage for the rest of us.

[AllentownJake]

16. Don't feel bad I made the same mistake in August

I thought he was a moderate from watching TV. Several DUers informed me that he wasn't.

[AlCzervik]

18. You should apologize but i suspect you're only doing it to reverse your epic douche chill.

[Ozma]

19. My first really disappointing moment in the Obama transition....

Aren't there some nice liberal black Unitarian women pastors he could have had?

What is he trying to do with this guy? The pastor guy is a homophobe, and I am insulted.

"God's sexual instructions"????????? GMAFB!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thrill]

20. Send it to Change.gov

[Neshanic]

21. Yikes, you open your yap before even knowing. How you.

[rhett o rick]

23. There may be hope for you yet Cali. This is Obama's first test. Hope he handles it appropriately.

[cali]

25. could you be any more condescending?

I'm not looking for your approval. I say what I think, and if I'm wrong, I'll say so, but I don't do it for any other reason but to keep myself honest.

[polichick]

31. You didn't apologize because you hurt people?

[rhett o rick]

32. Wow, sorry. I retract what I said. There isn't hope for you.

Actually I was trying to have some fun with you, but I should have known better. Sorry to offend.

[Neshanic]

36. I was going to warn you, but it just took minutes.

[yardwork]

38. Tried to warn you upthread. Sorry.

[rhett o rick]

41. Thanks for the thought, I should have know better. nm

[bettyellen]

37. we know you don't care about sounding like a big nasty dumbass, god knows....

you prove that daily.

[cali]

46. go look in the mirror.

"big nasty dumbass"?

:rofl:

pathetic.

[bettyellen]

56. u personify pathetic wi/ this ill informed and condesending BS

that in the midst of yet another big fuckup- you expect people here to be nicer to you than you're ever capable of being-
because why cali? because that's such a shitty way to act?
um, we know, asshole.
*yawn*

[Hansel]

26. Thank you Cali. n/t

[alwysdrunk]

28. What difference does any of this make? He is still the leader.

What do you think you've done here? Changed the minds of all the Rick Warren fans here on DU?

His specific positions and statements really don't matter. We would all disagree with them, even if they were "less extreme" than what you've posted.

The point is the fact the he is the de facto leader of a very large evangelical movement in America. THAT is the reason he was invited, it has nothing to do with his politics.

[rhett o rick]

35. Let me get this straight. He was choosen because of the size of his church and irregardless of his

bigotry? If so, things are way worse than I thought.

[alwysdrunk]

40. Yes. What did you think? Evangelicals are some small fringe?

They are not. They are a very large percentage of the population. He is the most visible and vocal leader in this group. If you think all of these people are bigots, then that's a lot of bigots. Voting bigots.

[rhett o rick]

42. I was hoping someone had some principles. nm

[Critters2]

44. That'll teach ya! nt

[rhett o rick]

51. I doubt it, I am a slow learner. nm

[LaurenG]

33. Yes and he thinks your husband is the boss of you and all that you do

I can't stand his thinking it sucks just like any other fanatic.

[ruggerson]

34. Thank you cali

I was ready to blast you in your other post :)

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

47. back at you

I responded to someone who made a condescending comment. And if you don't like it, tough fucking shit, honey.

[yardwork]

58. Some apology.

[LostinVA]

45. Too late --

[cali]

49. lol. some liberal open minded soul you are.

and it's a good thing my beliefs in equality aren't influenced by people like you.

[Uzybone]

48. Well said

those who refuse to accept your sincere apology are exposed as idiots. Everyone makes mistakes.

[DCBob]

50. If "he didn't need to do it" then why did he do it?

There must be a logical reasonable reason.

[KoKo]

65. Because he RAN on BEING President of ALL THE PEOPLE...He never varied from that message...

and so why are folks all upset?

Hey, I don't like Vilsak and many of his other appointments...but he ran on "reaching across the aisle" and that's Repugs, DLC, Blue Dogs and whatever other faction he can bring in. Nothing new there. :shrug:

[DCBob]

68. Yep. That's the way I see it too.

The angry dems are confused. Actualy there aren't that many but they do seem to be overrunning this discussion board at the moment.

[Laelth]

52. k&r for cali.

I greatly appreciate those who can change their minds. Most can't.

You did the right thing. Here's a beer from me. :toast:

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[qwlauren35]

53. Obama is a Uniter, who keeps his enemies close.

WHERE IS THE SURPRISE HERE???

[Solon]

59. Oh look, its Ms. "But I will NOT stick my neck out for same-sex marriage."

What a surprise that you are here.

[davidpdx]

54. I didn't know a lot about Rick, so that was very informative

I just happened to learn about him speaking at the inauguration when I read it on DU this morning. Personally I'm not happy about it either and can't see why he would invite him. Maybe there will be enough of an uproar that he'll quitely reverse himself and choose someone else.

By the way Cali, I didn't see your origional message, but kudos on the reversal. I'm not sure how I would have reacted had I not seen the information you posted.

[IndianaGreen]

55. And Warren believes that women must submit to male authority

All of the women that work for Warren are under male authority because it is "biblical."

K&R

[yardwork]

57. Since you posted this you've continued to attack people all over this board.

[Solon]

60. Heh, I called it upthread, I gave cali a week, didn't even last 10 minutes...

I'm not surprised.

[bettyellen]

62. it gets really cranky when it gets it's foot caught. in it's mouth.

[Two Americas]

61. Cali...

Maybe this can be a fresh start for all of us?

You have been all over the rest of us anytime we objected to any of Obama's decisions.

Can you see that the food activists feel just as betrayed? The organized Labor people?

I don't mean to give you a hard time, and I respect you for changing your position on this and admitting you were wrong. But maybe we can all stop with the bitter attacks on one another.

[Solon]

63. cali hasn't changed any positions...

Still spreading STFUs all over the place.

[KoKo]

64. Why is it not a good thing for Obama to have the worst of Leftie Enemies Speak?

You have always supported him in everything...why do you cave now because you find out that Warren is way far to the Right? :shrug:

[leftofthedial]

66. kudos to you, cali, on your wise and brave reversal.

:thumbsup:

[AndrewP]

67. Not Obama's actual choice, but Congress

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/12/17/rick_warren/index.html


This time, though, the decision to get involved with Saddleback was actually not Obama's. The Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies, run by the House and Senate, put together the program for the swearing-in ceremony. Congress, not Obama, invited Warren (as well as scheduling a musical performance by Aretha Franklin; here's hoping she doesn't reprise the 2005 inaugural performance of John Ashcroft's "Let the Eagle Soar").

[bettyellen]

69. um maybe try reading the whole thing next time

the pres elect oversees it. and today they defend it.

[Grateful for Hope]

70. Sorry

but it is pretty obvious that your prior thread is quite representative of what you really do think about those who rail against the status quo.

Sorry. You are not believable.

[Catherine Vincent]

71. Kerrist!

Amazing this thread is still open. :wow:

[Renegade08]

72. You're taking the holocaust statement out of context.

Read it carefully. Rick Warren is NOT saying that HE HIMSELF compares abortion to the Holocaust. He's explaining how evangelicals think about abortion. He's just reporting the views of evangelicals, and he's not referring to his own views on abortion.

You know, the rightwing nut jobs have spent 8 years twisting the words and views of liberals to make liberals seem crazy and extreme. I would hope that before we judge and condemn someone for his statements, we are sure that they truly reflect the person's views and isn't distorted or taken out of context in any meaningful way.

[Toasterlad]

73. All This Time Spent Defended Rick Warren Could Be Time Spent Praying for Our Souls

If you pray hard enough, God may cure all us hell-bound homos. Not sure what He'll do about the women and the Jews, but I'm sure He'll think of something.

You really should be PRAYING for a world like the one your buddy Rick Warren wants, rather than TALKING about it. TALKING is for sinners.

[tomp]

74. but cali, you should wait!

like you told me in the other thread, obama isn't president yet. wait till he's president before pressing him to uphold his commitments.

you're a hypocrite!

[RoadRage]

75. Cali.. I disagree with your change..

I luv ya - but I am actually OK with Obama pickinig Warren. I HATE WARREN. HATE HATE HATE him. He's horrible.. but he's also loved by the far right.

And, many on the far right are scratching their heads.. and looking dazed and confused today because of Obama's position to pick him to speak. My In-Laws called to talk about it (Huge Warren Fans.. they have his books.. bought his tapes, etc.).

Obama said that he's going to run a presidential office of inclusion. Letting Warren speak and letting him make policy decisions are two totally different things. By allowing this guy to talk, Obama is getting people who were venomously opposed to him 1 month ago, to now look at him with a new set of eyes.. and some new keen interest. Do we like these people? No. But, imagine if they start calling their senators and congressmen in support of Obama in a few months when he wants to push through education reform and health care reform. What are Republican Senators to do when thier Bible-Thumping constituents are slowly coming around to Obama? And, not because he's made any POLICY changes that affect them, but merely because he allowed them to have a small voice at the table.

This is change. Imagine Bush letting Michael Moore talk at his inauguration. Just imagine.. if he had allowed that to happen. A small amount of people on the left would CERTAINLY have listened to him a bit more, and given him a little longer. They would have questioned if he really was as bad as everyone one said he was.

If Obama starts pushing for constitutional bans to same-sex Marriage.. we have a problem. But, I don't see that happening. He's doing a fantastic job of softening up the other side..getting them to come to the table as well with a voice in order to push through the agenda that many people want. This isn't all about ONE issue.. it's about MANY.

So, in conclusion.. that's why i'm not opposed to Obama having someone I dispise speak at the Inaguration. It's never happened before in recent history. It is Change. It's Obama.

[debbierlus]

76. Thank you so much for taking the time. And, I respect you investigating the facts

Thank you.