Do I feel safe knowing Hillary will have to calm the situation between India and Pakistan?

[dkf]

Nope. I'd rather have Richardson.

Sigh.

On Edit: Can anyone relate a situation where Hillary has played peacemaker? And please do not cite Ireland. I'm talking in the Senate, in the Clinton White House, anywhere. How's about infighting in her campaign? Socks vs. Buddy? Anyone?

[burythehatchet]

1. No Hillary fan here, but speaking as a native Indian HRC is the ideal person for the

situation. She is quite beloved in India and she has a strong relationship with the Democratic forces in Pakistan.

[dkf]

13. But is she the kind of person who can ease tensions?

She doesn't seem like a "talk you down" kind of person.

It feels all wrong to me.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

21. Yes she is with intelligent people. You've never met her. For people who have she is the perfect

person for the job.

Oh and yes I've met her.

[Captain Hilts]

28. That's what folks on the Hill told me too. The smaller the room, the better she is.

She's great in small groups. Doesn't talk to you like you're a microphone.

[dkf]

30. Well she must be quite the Jeckyll/Hyde then.

I guess her campaign really didn't represent her?

[Captain Hilts]

38. The press sure didn't. As the WP said in Dec '07, "the press has their knives out for her."

They did.

[Beacool]

63. It's obvious that you don't know her.

Hillary likes to listen to all in meetings. If someone doesn't speak up, she will pointedly ask for their opinion. She is of the belief that if you are at a meeting it's because you have something to contribute. Also, she actually listens to people and doesn't just blow off their advice. The military brass was very impressed by her. One general commented that she was the only politician who actually listened to their concerns and acted upon their advice. Hillary earned the respect of her senate colleagues on both sides of the aisle, precisely because she was inclusive and did not try to impose herself on them. She is a great team player.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dailykoff]

85. I see the thought police are roaming the halls already.

Conformity WILL be enforced.

[Danger Mouse]

159. I see the failboat is sailing the seas of DU once again.

Hi there, sailor.

[ruggerson]

32. good grief

did you not watch the convention and her non stop campaigning for Obama?

And you question if she can ease tensions?

Who would have thought in the heat of the primary battle ten months ago that today we would have President Elect Obama appointing HIllary Clinton Secretary of State in his cabinet.

It is a testament to both Barack and Hillary's ability to move beyond petty politics for the good of the nation.

It speaks volumes about both of them.

They're both good negotiators and Obama has shown tremendously sound judgement in many of his decisions so far in the transition period.

[Zombie2]

35. She did pretty good with the Iran thing....

:shrug:

[Beacool]

49. That just proves how little you know about foreign policy

and how the Clintons are viewed in the world. As someone coming from a family of diplomats (and politicians too), I can tell you that both Clintons are highly respected overseas. Furthermore, they are beloved in the Indian community. More Indians voted for Hillary in the primary than for Obama. Ditto for Asians and Hispanics, for that matter.

:eyes:

[terrya]

111. Why don't you pick up the phone and call the President-elect with your concerns?

[dailykoff]

2. Hillary will be about as diplomatic as John Bolton.

She'll say all the nasty things she's told to say about Pakistan and tell all the lies about al qaeda and evil mooslims and yadda yadda and Obama won't have to lift a finger to get our next war on. Sigh.

[burythehatchet]

4. what a bizarre vision of the future

???

[dailykoff]

11. It's an old story, and it's been told many times.

If this is the first time you've heard it, listen carefully. Yes, this will come to pass, and no, there isn't much we can do about it except tell the truth in hopes of preventing it from happening yet again.

[MoonRiver]

104. Exactly. All I can say is thank God the crazed fanatics on DU don't rule the world!

:wow:

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. That's one of the most anti-Obama posts I'ver read here lately

whether you intended it that way or not. It is time to at least attempt to get used to it; Hillary Clinton is Barack Obama's choice to be HIS Secretary of State.

[dailykoff]

16. Right, let's hide behind the flag and cheerlead another illegal invasion.

Stay tuned to CNN for all the latest war porn.

[Tom Rinaldo]

20. Gee, I thought no one could see me...

...hiding behind the flag cheerleading the next invasion.

Think in black and whites much?

[dailykoff]

26. You've got plenty of company, so don't worry, you're safe.

There's only a small minority who actually give a damn about the truth.

[Tom Rinaldo]

33. I should feel honored to be in duscussion here

with one of only a small mimnority who actually give a damn about the truth. Unlike all the rest of us here.

[ruggerson]

41. I'm afraid Tom

you'll have to look elsewhere

[dailykoff]

43. Well as long as we're talking about truth, who do you think was behind that

terra attack in Mumbai? No doubt you think it was al qaeda or Osama or evil Paki muslims. Well I'll tell you: it was another CIA-MI5 operation and their thumbprints are all over it. Let's see if Hillary cops to that one.

[sufrommich]

48. Wouldn't that be Obama's responsibility

to "cop to that one? If he believed your conspiracy theory,that is.

[treestar]

105. Wouldn't it be * and Darth?

[Tom Rinaldo]

50. If that is your lead theory it would be more interesting to ask

if ANYONE in any way associated with the Obama Presidency is willing to to cop to that to any extent whatsoever. Given that premise, the issue is much bigger than what you me or anyone else thinks about Hillary Clinton. The focus of your critique doesn't fall on Hillary Clinton, it falls on the U.S. government which soon will be headed by President Barack Obama.

[dailykoff]

58. The point is that Hillary will spread hatred and fear a la Bolton

instead of trying to ameliorate it. No, it won't be her job to make these lousy policies, but if all she's going to do is make matters worse why appoint her in the first place?

[sufrommich]

62. Perhaps the hatred isn't as widespread as you would

like to believe. Just a suggestion.

[Tom Rinaldo]

67. That's a question ultimately to be asked of Barack Obama

It was his call to pick her and he did not have to do it. If there was a point when one could claim he needed to play nice with Hillary for political reasons, it was before not after he won the Presidency in a landslide. I would assume that Barack Obama is among those who do not share in some of your basic assumptions about Hillary Clinton and how she will perform in the position.

[dailykoff]

70. Yes. Unfortunately. (n/t)

[Beacool]

71. Are you being serious or just trying to be sarcastic?

Don't tell me that you actually believe that the CIA was behind these attacks?

Mind you, I know exactly what the CIA is capable of doing. Salvador Allende, for example. But, why Mumbai, for what purpose?

[dailykoff]

73. Get back to me when we're carpet bombing Afghanistan.

And no, I really don't know why the hell we'd want to do that, but apparently we do.

[polmaven]

101. The terrorists in Mumbai

were taking their orders from Hillary????? Wow! Whodda thunk it? I guess only the most intelligent on this board could ever have known that!

I guess we peons who actually have some faith in the electorate who supported Hillary in the primaries, and who voted for Obama in the general are really just too blind to see things in proper perspective. Hillary wants to invade India, and Obama is going to help her do it!

WOW!!!! GROW UP!!!!!!!

[dailykoff]

102. It's getting so I can't tell the satire posts from the serious ones. (n/t)

[GarbagemanLB]

123. I bet you think 911 was an inside job as well.

Please don't skip your daily medications.

[Danger Mouse]

161. Got any fucking proof? I know this is a stupid question, but I'm going to be generous here...

and give you a chance to prove you're not an idiotic crackpot.

[LostinVA]

164. You'll waiting a few zillion years for that proof, my friend

[Danger Mouse]

166. I certainly won't be holding my breath. Maybe he can dig up a link to Information Clearinghouse...

or something along those lines. :P

[Adsos Letter]

168. CIA-MI5?...

While they are certainly capable of it, that doesn't mean they actually had anything to do with it. Where is your evidence that they did?

[QC]

171. Don't expect an answer--jerkoff has finally been tombstoned. n/t

[Adsos Letter]

172. Ah, well...

sun goes up and down,
world goes 'round and 'round...

:D

[xultar]

23. Correct. Apparently Obama supporters have no faith in Obama. Stange.

[LostinVA]

68. It is a RABID anti Obama post -- wtf???

[Captain Hilts]

31. Well, if making up shit and hate keeps you from kicking your dog, I'm all for it. nt

[Danger Mouse]

160. If you're so anti-dem, why do you post on DEMOCRATIC Underground?

And don't give me some bullshit about censorship, I just am asking the question. I NEVER see you post anything positive. All you do is whine. What are you contributing to the community?

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. This is the appropriate moment in time...

...for a suspension of disbelief.

[DrDan]

5. and I am sure you have some sound logic to base that on . . .

or is it just a matter of comfort . . .

[dkf]

37. Her words and demeanor in general.

Of course I can't say what she is like in private. People seem to think she is nothing like how she comes across when she is campaigning. I guess that is supposed to be reassuring.

[cwydro]

6. Too bad for you then, eh?

Obama picked her.

Geez, how many of these anti-Hillary threads will there be?

[dkf]

52. We all rise or fall together if something awful happens between India and Pakistan.

Its not just me.

[lumpy]

156. Awful things have been happening between Pakistan and India

for a helluva long time and it isn't over yet, if one can believe history.

[ccharles000]

7. I adore Hillary and would feel safe with her as SOS

[msongs]

8. she is the choice of the chosen one so why not just accept that and move on? nt

[dkf]

100. He himself says he is not perfect

and not chosen.

[saracat]

9. I feel safer.Condi makes me nervous NOW and Richardson showed

a tendencey to stick his foot in his mouth like Biden.All Richradson's claims to fame came from the Clinton Admin anyway so might as well go to the source.

[sandnsea]

10. Better than McCain or Palin

I think we have to give her a chance.

[sufrommich]

14. She'll be carrying out Obama's foreign policy. I'm pretty

sure she'll be able to talk to foreign heads of state without an international incident.:eyes:

[dkf]

19. Its not the policy I'm worried about.

Its the over-aggressiveness of her personality.

[sufrommich]

22. Oh fer christs sake.

Whatever.

[John Q. Citizen]

44. Think of it like this. Obama can fire her at will, if he hires her. She serves at his pleasure.

[dkf]

51. Yes, but can he really fire her if she is trying, but is just not right for the job?

I don't think that would work. He would be stuck with her.

[JVS]

54. Don't you know how these things are done?

When someone accepts the job they write a letter of resignation that is deposited in the president's desk. If ever the appointment becomes an inconvenience, the letter is opened and out they go.

[LostinVA]

72. Exactly -- that's why Cabinet folks are never fired -- they always "resign"

[JVS]

77. And they're probably given a warning of a few days to make up some kind of story...

(i.e. more time with the family, want to dedicate myself to a particular cause/charity, I'm joining a cult) in order to make everything look smooth and easy. I guess if they don't cooperate the president would just have to leak the most damaging information that he could find on the person.

[LostinVA]

97. Because anything worse would make them BOTH look bad

The Secretary because they were fired, and the President because they hired somebody who they had to fire.

[dkf]

112. I don't think its politically possible for him to "let" her resign.

The only excuse I can see working is if Bill was really sick.

[Grateful for Hope]

55. I don't think he would hesitate to fire her

if her performance were sub-standard. There is so much at stake now that I don't think he could afford not to.

These are extraordinary times.

[dailykoff]

94. Imagine the drama that would ensue.

It would be an international episode of royal wedding proportions.

[Grateful for Hope]

115. I certainly hope

and suspect that it may be true that Obama has considered this contingency (as he probably has with all his nominees) and has given some thought as to the handling of this situation.

He is by no means perfect, but, from what I have seen, he has excellent managements skills, and, I am sure he will apply them to his new administration.

[Tom Rinaldo]

59. Yes

It's called "a shakeup" and it is far from uncommon. Many times the outgoing talent is praised as they are lead to the door for having worked hard on hebalf of the nation, often they are said to have moved the ball forward to an extent but now changing circumstances demand a fresh and different approach. And there is always the time honored option of kicking someone upstairs if all else fails. The Supreme Court will no doubt be an option that could be explored if needed.

P.S. There is also the unofficial demotion option, last used with Colin Powell. Vice President Biden could suddently start taking on more and more of the diplomatic heavy lifting if needed. Personally I don't think any of these options will be needed or used.

[dkf]

128. I wonder if they would even send Bill...

Would that save Hillary's face or would that be more humiliating?

[Tom Rinaldo]

136. Barack hasn't even been sworn in yet!

If I am going to get all speculative about how his administration will do I would rather speculate on it succeeding! Since Hillary Clinton has not yet served a day as America's Secretary of State, she has not yet had a single bad day in the job. I think Hillary will do a good job and you are afraid that she won't. Neither of us can know for sure, but can't we at least give her a chance to prove Obama right in selecting her?

We will have plenty of opportunities over the next four years to look at how well she is actually doing her new job. You may see me swing over to your perspective if things don't work out the way I suspect, and I hope you stay open to being pleasently surprised with Hillary's performance.

Obama runs a very cautious and deliberate political operation. I am conficent he has looked this one over a dozen ways from every angle. I suspect he has determined that Bill Clinton will function as a fringe asset to his Administration with Hillary as his SoS, and Bill will perform some work officially or unofficially for Obama. I think Bill will be used in ways to enhance Hillary (and Barack), not to rescue her.

[LostinVA]

15. Safer than about anyone else who could be in that position

And, I'm one who didn't want her to accept the SOS position.

[hlthe2b]

25. thank you for some sanity...

Good Lord... It seems that some people will never think with their heads, rather than their stubbed toes. Get over it, already!

[dkf]

130. I am thinking with my head...trying to think of evidence of Hillary's diplomatic skills.

If you have any examples... Making nice with her own constituents isn't quite what I'm talking about.

[blm]

137. I agree - she's been sold as the world's greatest marathoner, yet, no one can point to one race she

ran, let alone won. Shouldn't the world's top diplomat have SOME evidence of being ABLE to pull off the type of meetings needed?

She and Bill didn't even use their influence with Bush to back up Biden and Kerry who were pleading for security for Bhutto. Considering how much Clintons helped Bush they could have at least tried to intercede for Bhutto, but, strangely they didn't.

[Captain Hilts]

34. I didn't want her for SoS either, but she's ideal to deal with Pakistan and India. nt

[blm]

138. Why?

.

[dkf]

53. You didn't want her to accept it for her own good though.

[LostinVA]

122. You are neither psychic nor do you have good reading comprehension

I have said many times she could be better used for us in the Senate and later in a Federal judgeship. WTF does that have to do with her? Unlike you and your little cadre, I believe in the greater good, so when I say"we" or "us," I mean Americans.

[dkf]

126. Well then you and I agree she should stay in the Senate.

[wyldwolf]

17. why would you rather have Richardson?

Not to denigrate Richardson because I initially supported him in the primaries...

But the Clinton name carries much more respect in the world than the Richardson one, which is virtually unknown.

[dkf]

56. Because he brings down the temperature in the room, not

increases it.

I see him easing tensions, while Hillary's history has been in exacerbating them.

If she has a history of being a peacemaker I'd sure like to hear it.

[wyldwolf]

80. psst! The SOS won't be negotiating with the netroots

Maybe you can cite an example of clinton exacerbating tensions with a foreign power?

[dkf]

121. Iraq...Iran...

Those seem rather egregious.

You know...I can't believe you asked that. Doesn't Iran have a complaint in with the UN?

Just for you:

Iran files protest at UN over Hillary Clinton's 'obliterate' comment
By Nazila Fathi
Published: May 1, 2008

TEHRAN: Iran has lodged a formal protest at the United Nations about comments by Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton that the United States would "totally obliterate" Iran if it attacked Israel with nuclear weapons, the state-run IRNA news agency reported Thursday.

Iran's deputy ambassador to the United Nations, Mehdi Danesh-Yazdi, sent a letter of protest on Wednesday to the United Nations secretary general and the United Nations Security Council denouncing the remarks, according to IRNA.

Clinton made the comments in an interview on ABC last week. "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," she said when she was asked what she would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons. "In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them," she added.

Danesh-Yazdi wrote in the letter that Clinton's comments were "provocative, unwarranted and irresponsible" and "a flagrant violation" of the United Nations charter, IRNA reported.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/01/africa/iran.php

[wyldwolf]

163. Has Hillary had formal relations with them?

[dkf]

169. What does that matter?

Or do only her interactions with our friends as first lady matter? Very convenient for you. Its a joke.

[Sebastian Doyle]

144. Forget "names" let's talk about the records

Bill Richardson is an experienced diplomat. He's well respected around the world in that role. Hillary is on record in the Senate as voting for the Iraq war, despite the fact that she (as the wife of the former President) should have known better than anyone that the claims made by PNAC/Bush Crime Family about Saddam's weapons were false.

She then voted for that terrible Kyl-Lieberman amendment, which gave Chimpy the excuse he needed to attack Iran (though he hasn't yet done so). Hillary herself made threats to "Obliterate Iran". In other words, she's been on board with the Bush/PNAC foreign policy for her entire term in the Senate. That makes her the wrong messenger to tell the rest of the planet that the sane people are back in charge.

I'm not opposed to Hillary playing some role in the Obamadministration, if that's what the President wants, but I do believe it would be a mistake to have her as Secretary of State.

[polichick]

24. I feel safe enough, but I think Obama is squandering an amazing opportunity...

Leaders all over the world were anxious to work with Barack ~ this really muddies the message and drags the past back onto the world stage.

[polmaven]

106. That past

that will be dragged back onto the world stage is, as far as foreign relations go, a well respected past. The United States was well thought of during the 90s.

[polichick]

110. Time to look toward the future, not to the past.

[Tom Rinaldo]

120. See, that's what bugs me about the simple "Change!" mantra

Pendulums change direction all the time. Tides change constantly. It is just as unhealthy to be pro future and anti past as it is to be pro past and anti future. The future always arrives whether we want it to or not and we all owe our literal exisgtence to actions in the past. I still look to the Declaration of Independence for inspiration. I am proud of that part of our past and it animates my fervor for justice today.

I wasn't pleased to move into a Republican future in 2000 and it is impossible to enter a Democratic past in 2009. I care about moving in a positive direction much more than I care about change for the sake of change. And yes I do believe that President Obama will bring positive change to America. We are facing the future with the past watching our back.

[polichick]

124. Obama has an amazing opportunity to forge a brand new relationship...

...between the U.S. and countries around the world, a forward-looking relationship. I think it's a mistake to choose a personality from the past for this particular post.

[Tom Rinaldo]

129. There is no such thing as a "brand new" relationship with the U.S.A.

At least not until after the next full scale American Revolution, should one ever happen for better or for worse.

Most of the world is sophisticated enough to understand that the basic thrust of America's core international interests do not flip flop with the breeze of national elections. Obama's new economic team and his keeping Gates on is simply par for that course. Instead the world tends to ask does an incoming U.S. Administration sufficently understand the extent of international inter dependency and appreciate the need for international cooperation in achieving results that the world can live with? Bill Clinton was the last U.S. President that most of the world felt adaquately understood that.

For much of the world it is reassuring to have a RETURN to Democratic leadership of America. The fact that Barack Obama hails from the same political party that Bill Clinton emerged from is a positive sign. The fact that he will tap into Hillary Clinton's abilities and connections is seen as encouraging news. International leaders are not confused by Hillary's role. They know we have only one President and that will be Barack Obama.

[polichick]

131. Well, we won't agree on this one. imo it's Obama's first boneheaded move. :)

[kiva]

132. The rest of the world has a memory--we can't expect them to

forge brand-new relationships with us every four (or eight) years, nor do we necessarily change our relationships based on political changes in other countries. As several people have mentioned above most world leaders respect Hillary (and Bill), and perhaps are more interested in dealing with a 'personality' they know.

[AJH032]

134. You're absolutely right!

The idea that Hillary is a bad choice just because her husband was once President, and that we should instead throw someone new in there just for the sake of "change" is completely ridiculous. Obama ran on a platform of changing that which is wrong (ie, Bush administration policies), not changing everything that has ever been.

[polmaven]

142. So do you believe

President Obama should just throw everything that once worked very well out the window and go in a completely opposite direction?

Isn't that a little like throwing out the baby with the bath water?

You referred to "the past" as if it was something to be ashamed of. I personally think that respect and trust are not things we want to shun in the future.

[blm]

139. Other world leaders are probably VERY AWARE that Bill BACKED BUSH on his decisions

re Iraq war and terrorism strategy.

In fact, Bill Clinton was Tony Blair's top American advisor throughout the 9-11 and Iraq invasion events.

[polichick]

141. I'm sure you're right - doesn't seem smart to muddy the waters like that.

[Captain Hilts]

152. No, he didn't. Read the NYT on Feb 11th 2003. nt

[blm]

175. Yes....he did. The few mumbled words of caution were NOTHING compared to the BROADCAST

interviews he had given that fully supported Bush's decisions, including his IRAQ DECISION, straight through till Joe Lieberman lost his primary.

Bill always makes a few cover your ass remarks (depending on his audience), but the GREATER thrust of his remarks throughout were not only supportive of Bush but, he also VIGOROUSLY DEFENDED Bush during his high profile book tour in summer2004.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Actually she knows well folks on both sides of the occasion. I'd rather have her than Richadson

in this case. Specifically so, and I'm a Richardson fan.

[ben_meyers]

29. She couldn't even unite the Democratic Party

How in the hell is she going to make India and Pakistan get along?

[sufrommich]

36. Lame. nt

[ben_meyers]

47. Says who?

nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

82. Says ME!

Sorry, I couldn't resist this rare chance to acutally use this dumb cliche of dialog.

Your Mama! :)

[ben_meyers]

84. Lame!

[Captain Hilts]

148. Me too. nt

[Zombie2]

46. but... but.... but....

:rofl:

[Maven]

57. REASONABLE Democrats are united. HATERS like you and this OP are not.

That's not Hillary Clinton's fault.

[Captain Hilts]

150. Thanks, Harvey. Our leaders act like grown-ups, but people here don't take the cue. nt

[LostinVA]

75. As I said to your compadre upthread: grow up, and start following DU rules

This iswn't middle school, where it's tradition to have someone you fixate on and hate just because. This is the adult world. This is a Democratic message board. And the fucking Primaries are long over -- we won. Hillary and Obama are on teh same team, and anyone who can't follow their example should STFU or leave.

[NoPasaran]

87. Nonsense

I think she did a pretty good job of delivering her primary supporters to Obama/Biden in the fall.

[Hanse]

39. Well, she's already upset Pakistan.

Maybe she can piss off India and then they'd have something in common.

[JVS]

42. I'm sure they'll love her joke about Gandhi running a gas station.

But don't worry. We can always ask Russia (where Soulless Vladimir Putin is very popular) to help intervene in the area.

[TayTay]

40. Ah, she will not be SoS until January

This is an immediate problem, right now. How will she calm the situation when she is not in office and unlikely to be sworn in for 50+ days? That makes no sense, sets HRC up for completely unrealistic expectations and ignores the very real feelings involved in this international crisis. I think India and Pakistan (and Afghanistan and China and Russia) also have a say in this crisis.

Ah, the US is limited in what it can do. Senator Clinton is not yet Madame Secretary and the bodies in Mumbai aren't even all found yet and already there is the expectation that "we" can fix everything? How naive and dangerously stupid.

[ruggerson]

45. well said

[dkf]

61. The world relies on us.

And if India and Pakistan are at war when the administration comes into office, is that a better situation to throw her into? Thinking that she could be staving off war is the optimistic view.

[sufrommich]

69. Which is why you hear the cries of outrage coming from

governments around the world at Obama's dangerous choice.:rofl: Projection on your part.

[dkf]

91. Why would they have any say about who we pick?

[sufrommich]

96. lol,you're the one who posted the melodramatic

"the world depends on us" as if the world were afraid Clinton will be lobbing bombs from her desk. The world may very well be depending on us,but they'll be watching for signals from the president,adults know that the SOS is there to implement the president's policies.Your arguments against her are beyond ridiculous.

[dkf]

107. They are depending on whatever we can give them, but they have no say.

[sufrommich]

109. When did I say they did?

[TayTay]

95. This makes no sense whatsoever

Senator Clinton is the presumptive nominee for SoS. She has to be confirmed by the US Senate in order to be sworn in as SoS. That will involve hearings before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee. (I think those hearings will be quite fascinating, btw, and likely to illuminate a great deal of her thinking on what should happen on the international front for the US.)

She will not have the powers of SoS or be legally empowered as chief diplomat of the US until these things happen. (You know, the law and the Constitution matter to a hell of a lot of people. Dictatorships and totalitarian states have a nasty habit of installing people without going through a process of law. Is that really what you want here?)

The argument that the US is the only essential player who can stop a war between India and Pakistan is arrogant and unsupported by the facts. The US is a critical world player, but we do not control all things everywhere. This is completely unrealistic.

How do you expect someone who is not legally empowered to deal with the foreign policy of the US to stop a war? This is a clear violation of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act">Logan Act. "The Logan Act is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments. It was passed in 1799 and last amended in 1994. Violation of the Logan Act is a felony, punishable under federal law with imprisonment of up to three years."

Or maybe it's only illegal to sweep aside the laws and Constitution of the US when "they" do it. When "we" do it, well, that should be okay because we have the best of intentions in the greatest time of need. That is extremely dangerous thinking, the kind that gets countries into wars of choice against enemies not understood.

[dkf]

135. Again, seeing as how Bush etal have gone AWOL, I am hoping

there will be no disasters before then. But the Obama team will have to deal with this in one way or another.

[JohnnyLib2]

65. Indeed

:thumbsup:

[HughMoran]

76. "How naive and dangerously stupid"

Amen.

What an inane thread this is.

[Maven]

60. Barack and Hillary appreciate your concern.

[atimetocome]

64. yes, I do.

[HughMoran]

74. Oh geez, not this shit again.

This is the stupidest post ever.

[JohnnyLib2]

79. Stay tuned.

[yardwork]

78. Oh for crying out loud.

[Jennicut]

81. I thought Hillz was quite liked by many foreign countries being a former first lady and all, am I

wrong?

[Tom Rinaldo]

83. No.

Even Bill Clinton is quite liked internationally being a former President and all, whose last name is not Bush.

[dkf]

92. I'm sure they like Laura Bush too.

Do foreign countries ever dislike our first ladies?

Does that mean Laura Bush should be SOS? Your argument doesn't even make sense.

[Jennicut]

147. It was not an arguement, just wondering

Geez, some people need to chill out.

[Beacool]

174. Are you truly this obtuse or don't you travel much?

Travel abroad and find out what most people and governments think of both Clintons.

[LostinVA]

93. No, you're right

And, the international response to her possible appointment as SOS has been very positive.

[Captain Hilts]

151. Hey - no fair using facts!

[LostinVA]

165. Ack -- sorry, I forgot!

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dailykoff]

90. You really should try sticking to the subject.

But I understand why you don't.

[polmaven]

113. Well sure....

'Cause there is a HUGE similarity to the two situations!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[jillan]

89. Biden is an expert on Pakistan. He has many contacts there.

Together, the team will know what to do.

And YES Hillary will be part of the team....not on her own as you imply.

[AtomicKitten]

98. President Obama will be calling the shots.

I have confidence in him and his ability to neuter or fire anyone that veers from his vision.

[Tom Rinaldo]

99. RE your on edit question.

Her entire first term in the U.S. Senate was a tour de force in "peacemaking" with rivals. Politically we may agree or disagree with Clinton on her priorities and how she went about pursuing them, but Hillary Clinton entered the U.S. Senate a couple of years after it conducted impeachment hearings on her husband, and after many Republican Senators there grandstanded mock horror over Bill Clinton's unfaithfulness to his wife Hillary in gory semen stained dress details. I fully expected drama and explosives in the Senate when she joined that chamber I welcomed it, I wanted revenge. Instead Hillary Clinton forged respectful professional relationships with all of her colleagues in the U.S. Senate, and stayed focused on the business of the Senate, not payback and drama, and she won much grudging respect from enemies in so doing.

Closer to home, Hillary Clinton was an imported diva in New York, with star power sufficient to win a Senate seat here without having ever previously lived in New York. Upstate New York in particular was extremely suspicious of her, expecting her to be Manhatten centric to an extreme. Instead she spent a good deal of time and political capital on dealing with the serious needs of her upstate Neww York constitueants. Hillary Clinton won over upstate New York by being attentive to it, and now this former First Lady is seen as being the Senator upstate New York relates to, instead of the native Senior Senator from New York

By the way, often the best peacemakers are those who made the most credible warriors, like Israel's Rabin.

[dkf]

103. I was talking about between others, like India and Pakistan

Israeli and Palestinians, even Wolfson and Penn, or Buddy and Socks. Anything?

In your example, she conformed to others. Anyone can do that if they choose to. The ability to do that or not do it is solely based on ones own ego.

[Tom Rinaldo]

114. Seemed to me you also have been discussing personal qualities

that are important to peacemaking. If I took some time I could quote back some of your comments on that. I think chalking up her interpersonal accomplishments as an elected Senator for six years as simply "conforming" shows some negative bias toward Hillary and a selective presentation of her personal strenghts and weaknesses designed to further your premise that she is ill suited to the position.

From all reports the Obama team was impressed by Hillary Clinton's campaign efforts on behalf of Obama for President. She won over a lot of hard core detractors in the Obama camp through her focus and behavior during the Fall campaign. That could not have been easy for her. DU, even basking in the bright glow of a huge Democratic victory, still shows ample evidence of the bitterness that the primary campain brought us. Hillary functioned, and functioned well - delivering solid results, in a political world where many of her supposed allies had deep mistrust of her, and many of her supposed supporters had deep mistrust of the man she was working on hebalf of. You better believe it was raw and personal on a daily basis. But Hillary Clinton signed on to a political mission and she delivered for it.

I have seen too much evidence for far too long (16 years) that Hillary Clinton consistently wins respect from international leaders to seriously doubt her abilities to funciton in that environment. I am not here claiming foreign policy leadership - simply stating that she plays well internationally. Unlike even her well liked husband, Hillary Clinton has never been a sourse of embarassment for America internationally, and she has had plenty of exposure even if not usually in a lead policy forming role.

Look. Time will ultimately tell, but there are plenty of tea leaves to read until the real results are in. Your focus it seems is on negative ones but there are positive tea leaves also. I still stand by by one sentance post to you above. Now is the time for a suspension of disbelief. Obama wants her as his SoS, and he knows her (and what she is capable of) a hell of a lot better than you or I.

[dkf]

117. Well I can't judge what she is like in person because I have no idea.

Moreover, any account of what she is like in private is filtered through some sort of media, which is supposedly biased one way or the other.

All I know is what I saw in the campaign. I thought I learned a whole lot about Obama and Hillary from the process, but everyone says she isn't really like that so I don't know what to say to that. I see someone who was more likely to agitate than to calm. Weren't her relations with Al Gore kind of sticky too? I mean Al Gore! Geez.

[AtomicKitten]

108. As the conduit of Obama's policy, she will carry out his directives.

And she is eminently fire-able if she becomes a problem for Obama.

[Phx_Dem]

116. Since when do Secretaries of State make people feel

safe? They don't set foreign policy. They do the bidding of the President. President Obama makes me feel very safe, and I expect that Hillary will do a good job implementing his policy.

[gulliver]

118. Richardson? Did you even watch the debates?

The guy is a cipher. I remember him from MTP during the Clinton administration. One dumb, slow-witted answer after the other. I wanted to throw my coffee at the TV. (Guy almost cost me a TV and a coffee).

Obama as president and Clinton as SoS right now? I'd take that in a New York nanosecond. We've got Dubya and Condi...rank imbecile and imbecile butt smoocher. Big time powderkeg. Scary.

But Richardson? Please.

[JerseygirlCT]

119. She will do just fine

She's quite bright, she's working with other people who are quite bright (not to mention a president who is the same, and remember, the one in charge).

In fact, I think her personality lends to less rash action than Richardson's might. (And I like him a lot).

I think she'll have her hands full, as will everyone in the Obama administration, and really, in the country. There's a world of mess to clean up.

[Pisces]

125. Sigh, so sick of the melodrama. This post of zero value with zero content.

[rvablue]

155. Word....I mean what are some people thinking that she is going to become

SoS in order to stir up Indian-Pakistani relations and start freakin' WWIII???

The woman is obviously going to want to succeed in her position.

The Clinton paranoia on DU can rival FR sometimes.

Do people think that she is out to destroy the world.........:shrug:

[LWolf]

127. How am I supposed to know how you feel?

Do I feel "safe" with Obama in the WH?

No. Does anyone but me care?

No.

[JI7]

133. Obama is going to decide what to do with all of our foreign policy

if Hillary doesn't do what he wants he can fire her.

this is different than if she were VP. the PResident can't fire the Vice President. so the VP is able to be more free in what they do .

the Sec of State is different. when she goes overseas or anything else she will be speaking for Obama and what Obama wants.

just look at Condi Rice and how she has to try to explain everything Bush does.

[Cleita]

140. The Clintons are more admired and liked internationally than they are here.

I think she will do fine and she will take no prisoners. I'll bet that in two years India and Pakistan will be waltzing with each other. I also think she will be able to resolve Israel and Palestine. Bill Clinton almost got there but couldn't get Arafat to come to an agreement. Since he is no longer in the picture she has a good chance of reaching some kind of peace that is satisfactory to all concerned.

[Captain Hilts]

153. Nelson Mandella LOVES Bubba and Hil. nt

[quickesst]

143. Ha ha....Clinton fever....

...seems to be here to stay. I see you voted for Obama. You must have the same doubts about his ability to carry out the duties that come with being president, as he has never been in that position, which carries with it a much heavier burden than Secratary of State. Personally, I feel Obama very capable, and will be a success. The reason for that confidence is in great part due to no pre-conceptions, or hostility toward Obama before he has had a chance to prove himself. That confidence is not limited to part-time status either. It carries over to his ability to choose the people he surrounds himself with in order to succeed. Obama's success as president will not be dependent upon irrational bitching and moaning, but it certainly does not help to fulfill the goals he has set for his time in office. HRC will do as good a job, or better than anyone else that could be chosen, and so far noone has given reason other than little snippets of anti-Clinton hoo-hah to think any differently. When reason for dissent is an actuality, then one can say, "I told you so", but prognostication, as belief in ghosts, is not going to carry any validity without solid evidence. In other words, spit in one hand, and fill the other with valid reasons Clinton won't succeed as SOS, and see which one fills up first. Better have plenty of paper towels handy. Thanks.
quickesst

[dkf]

145. To tell you the truth, when they were asked the question in the

debate about Medvedev, I didn't feel like either of them were very good on that subject.

I do feel that Obama's intentions are good, he is fair, and he is damned smart. But I liked the thought he would have the best experts possible to assist him. I don't see Hillary as having the foreign policy chops to be of as much assistance as I assumed he would get. And the world gets progressively worse by the day.

I thought he would get someone as brilliant, but less politically explosive than Brzezinski for example. That guy simply wows me. I'm not sure I would have been happy with Kerry either. Richardson doesn't wow me, but he makes me feel assured and I know he has faced some tough situations before.

[rosesaylavee]

146. I think she will do fine.

She is a very capable Senator and I think the divisiveness from her campaign came from the staff she worked with and some of her more strident supporters. Not that she would be my first choice as Secretary of State, but if Obama has interviewed her and she's been vetted and she is his choice, I am fine with this choice.

She will be the messenger of the Obama Administration's point of view. Did you feel the same about Madeleine Albright prior to her appointment?

[SoCalDem]

149. No, and HELL NO..

[Erin Elizabeth]

154. If her campaign is any indication of how she would run things as

SoS, I'm seriously worried.

I read that whole long Newsweek multi-chapter article about the behind the scenes stuff and her campaign was even more of an out of control mess than it seemed to be.

[lumpy]

157. The bullcrap on this thread is piled as high as an elephants eye.

UGH

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

162. gee, you hate Hillary

stop the presses

[rucky]

167. You feel unsafe? I'm calling bullshit on that sentiment.

[Catherine Vincent]

170. No one cares how you feel. nt

[Beacool]

173. I was going to go through her record,

but you know what? You don't deserve an intelligent response after your asinine add on edit.