Sad state of affairs when Pat Buchanan is more supportive of the choices made by

[cliffordu]

President-elect Obama than my fellow DU'ers....


RE: pat on David Gregory today....No link yet....

[rolleitreks]

1. Some folks here are just professional malcontents. n/t

[HughMoran]

2. Another RW guy on NPR too

He must be doing something right :P

[MessiahRp]

3. Yes because Pat Buchanan approving of these people makes them good choices

The guy is chronically wrong on everything but hey now he agrees with the right leaning centrists on the board who are happy that the liberals and progressives (who were one of the main reasons he even got past Hillary) are being shut out.

Sound logical to me. :eyes:

Rp

[Two Americas]

20. that's it

Amazing to watch the right leaning centrists on the board question whether or not those on the Left "are really Democrats." Buchanan's comments are welcomed, but Nader and Moore and Jackson are viciously attacked.

[cliffordu]

24. My OP led with "Sad state of affairs..."

Really, do you think I have anything but contempt for what Buchy has to say?

he's an intellectual novelty act, like the WeaselBoy, or a talking nasturtium

[Two Americas]

31. I know

I don't understand why that is a sad state of affairs. Woulld it not be a much more obvious and simpler explanation to say that right wingers like this cabinet because this cabinet is shaping up as friendly to the interests of the right wing?

For months and months the DLC was vilified here, and Obama was portrayed as the anti-DLC candidate, yes? I didn't agree with that, but it did happen. Why would it them surprise us that people anticipated a repudiation of the DLC? Certainly, recent events suggest something different than that. Again, why would the reaction by some here surprise us?

For months and months people here said that every idea and concept from the Republican party was to be discarded, that everything they had done and said was anathema. I agreed with that. To then hear an Obama appointee speak for the administration and say "we welcome ideas and concepts" from the Republicans would naturally enough get a negative reaction here.

For months and months we heard that the Clintons personified everything that was wrong with the party, and during the primaries negative comments against the Clintons were more numerous than positive posts about Obama. Now Senator Clinton is being welcomed into the administration and given one of the top offices. Of course that would lead to dissent here.

For months and months we were told to withhold from making any critical remarks about the candidate, and then nominee, for the purposes of getting him and other Dems elected. After that, we were told, we would be free to criticize and we would be "holding his feet to the fire." Now the election is over, and the calls for people to refrain from criticizing and the attacks on those who do have escalated, they have nit abated.

I can't see why anyone is surprised. The reaction and the criticisms of Obama's decisions have, in my view, been extremely tame given what has happened.

My guess is that Obama loyalty - in the sense of the cult of personality - is at odds with the program people thought they were supporting, or told others to support. The resulting cognitive dissonance is causing people to be hyper-sensitive to even the mildest forms of critical analysis of Obama's decisions, because it forces them to look at all of the internal contradictions they are trying to hold on their minds.

That is causing the divisions here, not the actions of the critics. The drama about the supposed drama is much bigger and more destructive than the initial perceived provocation - expressions of "disloyalty" we are to believe.

I say that "give him a chance" and "continue to speak out" are not mutually exclusive, that "be loyal" and "support" does not mean abandon our principles or refrain from giving our critical opinion, and those could only be seen as contradictory because people are too closely and emotionally identifying with the personality of Obama, are in fact thinking like groupies or hero worshipers.

A while bunch of contradictions have been set in motion - not by Obama but by some of his supporters - and now the chickens are coming home to roost. In their frantic efforts to resolve the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing, although they are calling that "support" and "loyalty," some Obama fans are actually doing more damage to the p-arty and the new administration than any one could.

I also think that some of the people engaging in this super-loyalty and hyper-sensitivity to any and all criticism of the new administration are surreptitiously trying to force the administration and the party to the right, and harass those on the Left to distract and confuse people.

[cliffordu]

33. Well, I agree with a lot of what you are saying.....

but anyone who thinks Obama has abandoned some set of principles he had 6 months ago because of cabinet appointments, isn't paying attention.....he has ALWAYS maintained he is a centrist and someone who will work with just about anyone to actually get the job done.


My criticism of some here on DU is leveled at the hateful knee-jerk "He is abandoning the left..." when he never said he was about the left at all, did he???

Labels like 'progressive' and 'liberal' get bandied about by people who think anyone who cannot fit thier narrow definitions of those stances as freepers or worse.

I get the feeling that President Obama will do exactly what he said he will do.

[Two Americas]

35. we agree

I am not complaining about Obama. I never thought he was not a centrist. My complaint is with his supporters who whip sawed us all back and forth during the primaries trying to present Obama as all things to all people depending upon the situation, who switched positions and loyalties continually to line up with whatever their hero was saying or doing, or they thought he was saying or doing, and are now complaining about the inevitable blow back from that.

Many, including me, think that the party has moved far to the right, that the Left is under relentless assault from a vocal and domineering faction within the party, that a strong move to the Left would be supported by the general public, and that a move to the Left would be the best thing for the party and the country. I think that is a legitimate point of view - I don't expect or demand that all agree with me - and I think that my point of view should be heard among Democrats. If not here, then where? If not now, then when? We are told that third parties are out, Nader is the enemy, that "Kucinich can't win," and most notoriously "don't get me wrong I agree with you BUT..." with that word "but" being a massive loophole through which all sorts of right wing politics can be driven and forced onto the rest of us and the people.

When Dems take right wing positions, according to my analysis of course, I will point that out. The fact that the whole party has moved far to the right, again by my lights, means that there are many opportunities to point that out. I believe that I have a civic duty and a moral obligation to do so. I believe that a functioning and healthy representative democracy depends upon this, requires us to speak out.

That does not mean that I am rejecting anything but my "narrow definitions" of "stances." It means that I am going to bring a Leftist point of view into discussions in this, the more left wing party, and if that seems like too much criticism I would suggest that this is because there is too damned much about the Democratic party to criticize right now. I am not advocating some narrow agenda nor being a "purist," I am pushing for ANY general move away from right wing politics.

[Generator]

4. It's a clue when the other side

LOVES what "your" guy is doing that maybe what "your" guy is doing is not in your best interest. OH AND it would be lovely if anyone on here could take any criticism of our dear leader. It would be amazing if anyone actually READ some criticism from various blogs, magazines, etc. to see maybe there is something to the criticism. But apparently Obama shits gold.

You know-perspective. MANY on here want this to be Obama love underground apparently. Many apparently never had the idea they could learn something from what Fox says and what Democracy Now says. Maybe there is some truth everywhere-somewhere in between. Maybe paying attention to those that bitch because maybe those are the ones that save your life from you falling off the cliff after your fantasy.

[cliffordu]

8. Well......

"Maybe paying attention to those that bitch because maybe those are the ones that save your life from you falling off the cliff after your fantasy."

Maybe. I listen to the bloggers with track records.

And I listen to some of the people here....In your case, not so much.

If you knew half of the shit you claim to know, you'd be on the transition team. Right??

[AlCzervik]

5. i think Obama's picks are good but people are entitled to their own opinion and no it's not

sad, it's only sad when they're dismissed out of hand.

[cliffordu]

10. Which is what I was talking about, really.

:hi:

[balantz]

6. Helloh?!

Pat Buchanan has turned into a progressive all of a sudden?

Or is it that Obama's choices are just fine for the Bushie type rightwingers?

[cliffordu]

11. Neither. On occasion even a blind pig finds an acorn.

[balantz]

12. He speaks corporate sanctioned words, that's what he is paid for.

His bosses wouldn't let him act like a blind pig unless it suited them and their agenda.

[cliffordu]

13. I think he's just naturally a blind pig. They need the batshit crazy right winger

to play to the "conservative" viewer. If by conservative one would mean Nixon Republicans.

[Skittles]

7. that IS sad

but not for reasons you think

[cliffordu]

9. Really? What reasons do YOU think??

[stillcool]

14. This crapping on Obama started..

the day after the election, and I don't see it ending. At least during the primaries there was light and the end of the tunnel, and I knew it would come to an end. I really don't know how to interpret many of these posts. There seems to be a lack of thought as to the need of a relationship between business and government, and global interests vs. national interests. It's as though with the strike of a pen all can be washed away and we can start anew. Perhaps if we were to truly fail, as in a failed state, that might be true..although I suspect that even then, there would be power structures in place that would have to be finessed through. Sooner or later the focus will change and there will be more dire issues to piss and moan about than Obama's choices for Cabinet members.

[cliffordu]

15. I'm not sure all the pissers and moaners are actually Democrats....

It seems in some cases, there is no pleasing them on any level.

Maybe there never will be.

[thenam]

16. Maybe Buchanan's support should be your effing clue?

Obama will never be above criticism. We'll hold his feet to the fire like anyone else. To do otherwise would make us clones of what we saw among the reich-wing during the Bush years.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thenam]

18. Ok, I'll hold your hand...

...and walk you through this.

If Pat Buchanan, arch-paleoconservative relic, likes Obama's picks for the cabinet, do you really want that kind of seal of approval?

I do not expect to hold Obama's feet to the fire alone. I expect us all to do it.

[cliffordu]

22. Frankly, I could give a shit what Buchanan has to say. I was musing as to the

complete lack of support by some who post on this board..which if you actually read the OP, you'd see.

It's OK, do it real slow, move your lips if you have to, and you might understand, little one...

It starts with "Sad state of affairs..."

To think I agree with Buchanan on anything is stunningly ignorant.

[grantcart]

19. lol you missed all of the "night of the long knive threads"

Even got my "night of the long chain saw" thread locked.


there was

night of the long knives
night of the longer knives
night of the longest knives
night of the long chain saw
night of the strapped on dildo.

[cliffordu]

23. Nice bunch of fucking people we got here. Ain't seen this many irritated

halfwits since my sister married my cousin.

Hey, My friend, how ya doing??

:hi:

[grantcart]

27. did you see any of the threads I mentioned? It was pretty funny

I think the election gods are fucking us around just for fun.


We win the election and then this slow motion march to Jan 20 starts up and Stevens gets taken out.


Now we have the fine folks counting the Franken/Coleman ballots and the numbers are bouncing around. At night I have dreams of Marge Gunderson counting the ballots. Franken wins by one vote and immediatley changes his name from Al to "Landslide Franken".


Chambliss comes down to an exact tie and it goes to the Senate.

[cliffordu]

28. No, I missed them, I'm all about the Palin Turkey Slaughter highlight reel now.....

Especially the part when she says "we have to make some cuts.."

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

26. Night of the strapped on Buchanan....

:rofl:

[JVS]

Maybe that's an indicator that the choices are not very good.

[cliffordu]

25. Maybe......But I'm willing to see what happens AFTER the first couple of days

of his presidency.......

[Idealism]

21. Everyone once in a great while, Pat will get something right

During the campaign, he told tweety about McCain's involvement in the Georgian War in august (that the campaign had contacts with Micha and gave their explicit backing). Hes also criticized the Iraq war in the past, after shock and awe wore off.

[mackerel]

29. Obama's choices are pretty solid. I'm not sure why anyone

would expect differently? He picked mostly Clintonites, Harvard or Yale and experienced. His pick of Geithner was bold but I believe he's ready for it.

Sure there are many here who disagree but my guess is it would have more to do with his picks being more moderate or centrist.

Obama has never been a liberal dem but I think many forgot that as they got caught up in the excitement of the historical aspect, as well as, the chance to be rid of the archaic party that had been holding down our system for so long.

Cliffy don't stress over it, dissension is a good thing, makes us think.

[cliffordu]

30. I agree that dissention is a GREAT thing, but the level of some of the criticism

has been kind of off the charts negative....

It's like people feel personally betrayed by the choices.

I'd like it if folks would give him a little time AFTER he gets sworn in to start with the ankle biting.

[SwampG8r]

32. its a bad pick

and i cant support it

[cliffordu]

34. I understand why, I think. Howareya??

:patriot:

[SwampG8r]

36. okie doke

in all honesty i hope it does work out but i just see it as more of the same

whether the press brings the circus or she brings it it doesnt matter
the attention diversion and drama are always bad