Let him ACTUALLY be President before bitching, please.

[kevinds13]

You voted for him. You liked his positions. You believed in change.

Now he adds some Clintonites, might have a bipartisan Cabinet, and even some hawks around him and the world is doomed, the sky is falling, hell has frozen over. Or has it?

Last I checked, Obama is still the guy in charge come January 20th, 2009. He will make the final say on issues and he will have control over all policy. This isn't the McCain campaign here...no one will be "going rogue" and keep their job. I've been lurking for quite awhile, probably 3 years really and I've always wondered what DU would be like with a Democratic President. Well, shit, now we know.



Surrounding yourself with people who disagree with you IS CHANGE from the yes men of Bush.

Having a broad, inclusive, bipartisan Cabinet IS CHANGE that puts "Country First."

Letting Republicans have a voice (as much as you may hate it) WILL HELP us get broader support for what we believe in and we'll GET MORE DONE.




So for now, quit the bitching, let him actually take office and make decisions...and feel free to flame away.
:D

[firedupdem]

1. No flame here! I agree! n/t

[Arkansas Granny]

2. No flames from me. I think you're exactly right.

[John Q. Citizen]

3. Free free to feel holier than whoever you want.

Just remember.

Everybody is somebody's weirdo.

[PresidentObama]

4. Amen. Too much whining, and he hasn't even taken the oath of office yet n/t

[balantz]

5. But he is President Elect, and he is making decisions. n/t

[kevinds13]

8. I agree.

But its not like he appointed Sarah Palin to an Animal Rights position or something ridiculous like that. If he makes an astounding, horrible pick, I'll be right next to all the other DUers blasting him for it.

But so far he's appointed competent, qualified persons to each position. They may not be the most liberal or progressive, they may not be your #1 choice, but they are still good picks. The Cabinet won't determine how progressive an Obama administration will be...Obama's ACTUAL GOVERNANCE will...

So we should wait to actually see real decisions made on policy, not people.

[balantz]

10. When I see his choices thus far I don't feel too happy. Like in the following link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x242636

[JuniperLea]

29. You have not seen these people in action under this administration

Everything changes when there's a new boss.

[Two Americas]

31. this has to be troublesome, though

I can't imagine that very many here would not cringe a little at the following news item. Notice that it is the ideas and concepts of the Republican party that are being welcomed, and also that Emanuel at least claims to be speaking for and about the new administration.

Emanuel On GOP: "We Welcome Their Ideas"

Source: CBS News

Incoming White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel said President-elect Barack Obama wants to work with Republicans, saying the new chief executive will "welcome their ideas" on how to resolve the ongoing financial crisis the country faces.

Emanuel met today with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and the entire GOP leadership from that chamber for about 30 minutes, and is currently huddling with House Republican Conference Chairman Mike Pence (Ind.). A one-on-one session with House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (Va.) will follow the Pence meeting.

Emanuel noted that he personally had spoken to almost two dozen Republicans in the last two weeks to tell them that the new administration is serious about bipartisan cooperation.

"We welcome their ideas and their concepts," Emanuel told reporters after his meeting with McConnell and other Senate Republicans. "It's challenging times economically. The middle class is working harder, earning less and paying more. The challenges facing the country require that people of both parties work together to solve those problems."

"I told them that I welcome their ideas, be that in their area of education, health care, taxes, energy policy, national security," Emanuel added. "Give us those ideas, because we are formulating what we're going to do in the Obama administration."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/20/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4621638.shtml

[JuniperLea]

33. Did you listen to Obama at all during his campaign?

He said he was going to welcome ideas and concepts from everyone... that is everyone... all people... no mention of party, nothing. Everyone. What does that mean? It means they are going to listen to everyone. LISTEN. To everyone. Listen. This doesn't mean he's adopting anything.

Step away from the RW Kool Aid!!!

[Two Americas]

34. sure

Of course I did.

Obama said dissent and all opinions were welcome. I am expressing mine.

I don't speak for the administration.

I don't think the Republicans have any "ideas or concepts" worth considering. I think we have had more than enough opportunity to hear their concepts and ideas, and to see them considered and tried. Don't you? I don't think it is encouraging to hear a spokesperson from the administration say that.

What if a spokesperson for the administration said "we welcome the ideas of the bigots." Would you feel constrained out of loyalty from commenting on that?

What is the difference, in you opinion, between the ideas and concepts of bigots and war-mongers and the ideas and concepts of the Republicans, as fully on display for the last 8 years?

It seems to me that the Republicans would be the last ones we would want to get cozy with or listen to.

"We welcome the ideas from the homeless."

"We welcome ideas from the unemployed."

"We welcome ideas from organized Labor."

If we are going to talk about listening to all voices....

A commitment to listening to and considering the ideas and concepts from the same voices that have been dominating the national political discussion - those who have aggressively and relentlessly sought to destroy us - should set off alarm bells for all Democrats and supporters of the new administration, should it not?

[JuniperLea]

35. Good for you

I just find opinions that fly in the face of the facts a little hard to take.

[Two Americas]

37. in the face of facts?

Are there any people whom you would rather not see have influence over the administration? Should we announce that we will be considering the ideas and concepts of bigots, for example? Would that be in keeping with the spirit of the campaign?

I added to my post after your response, by the way.

[JuniperLea]

44. He's doing what he said he would do

You think he's going to so easily be led astray? That's pretty insulting.

[Two Americas]

50. lol

Insult? I don't think so. Expressing our opinions is our civic duty in a representative democracy. "Do not insult the leader" sounds like something we would expect to hear in a country that was under the yoke of an authoritarian dictatorship.

I don't care what he is doing, that doesn't mean that we can't express our opinions.

I said before the election that I did not think it was a good idea to play footsie with right wingers, and I am still saying it today. May I not express trepidation about and mistrust of Republicans here, among Democrats, as a Democrat? Before the election, people said "not now, you can talk about that stuff after the election and we will all be holding Obama's feet to the fire. Right now we need to concetrate on winning." What is the excuse now for telling people to refrain from offering any criticism?

I thought these calls for refraining from uttering any critical remark was not a matter of hero worship, but was just a practical expedient for the purpose of winning the election? The election is over. Why has it gotten worse rather than better?

[JuniperLea]

53. LOL yourself

He's not our leader. You haven't given him a chance. That is the issue here. You are critiquing a film that has never been seen by any living being. I'd feel really stupid for jumping the shark like that. Clearly you revel in it.

[Two Americas]

40. do I understand you?

Do you really have no problem with that article and the statements in it?

Which Republicans would you welcome, and what ideas and concepts from Republicans do you think should be considered for incorporation into the policies of the new administration?

[JuniperLea]

43. Do I understand you?

Did you vote for someone who said they were going to reach across the aisle and surround himself with different people with different views and then decide you didn't like that so much after he was elected?

This is called change. This is called being a president to ALL AMERICANS. This is called bi-partisan politics. This is what Obama promised, and this is what he is delivering.

He is doing everything he said he would do. Where the fuck were you?

[Two Americas]

48. why such bristling hostility?

You well know that before the election, we were all given the lesser of two evils and "you have no where else to go" arguments. There was no hint given then that a requirement to remain silent was part of the bargain.

[JuniperLea]

51. No one is asking you to remain silent

I'm merely stating my opinion. And my opinion is that we knew exactly what Obama said he was going to do and he is doing what he said he'd do. Not ALL of us felt we were getting the lesser of two evils. In fact, I had no real problem with Hillary either. I would have been happy with either. And in my opinion, it's ridiculous to complain about the Obama administration until they actually get behind the wheel.

I'm sick of the moaning and hand wringing. Do something constructive and we'll all feel better about things. What you are doing now really has no positive effect on anything.

[Two Americas]

54. yes you are

Characterizing someone else's opinion as "moaning and hand wringing" is the precise tactic being used in an attempt to silence people, by trivializing there message and marginalizing them, and trying to prejudice their audience against them. It is telling people to not listen or consider opinions you happen to disagree with, by maligning and smearing the speaker.

We should all be well familiar with that tactic, since the right wingers have continually used it to such good effect to marginalize, and thereby silence all of us for years now.

If you are tired of reading opinions that make you uncomfortable, don't read them. Telling everyone else that they are not valid, or that the speaker is not to be considered seriously - which is exactly what calling them "moaning and hand wringing" - is suppressive and inconsistent with a free and open discussion. It is authoritarian and sabotages representative democracy.

If you have an opinion about what someone said, make your case. If you have a derogatory opinion about the person themselves, or are speculating about their motives or mindset, you are making an ad hominem attack - attacking the messenger rather than the message - and that is an assault on freedom of speech.

[JuniperLea]

55. If you are tired of people giving you an opposing opinion

You should stop responding to them.

What the hell is it you are doing but trivializing Obama and marginalizing him? You can dish it out but you can't take it. If you can't eat at the adult table without drooling all over yourself, find another table.

[Two Americas]

56. look

I don't have any hostility toward you, and have no problem with discussing this with you. Your barrage of insults and attacks are not being returned in kind by me.

It is not possible for me or you to trivialize or marginalize the president of the United States. He will have center stage and be heard, and there is nothing we could do to interfere with that. He is at no risk from us, and it is silly to think that we should not speak out for fear of hurting him. I don't think I have even criticized him, have I?

I would suggest that you give this some consideration, should you choose to do so, because you seem steeped in an irrational hero worship mindset. That is not helping or supporting Obama, it is merely causing a lot of bad feelings. This is no way to promote his administration, because not everyone is going to share your adulation. Demanding that others do is just not a good idea. It is not our job to represent politicians, it is their job to represent us. You are reacting as though it were your child or loved one being criticized. Even most parents are not this sensitive and resistant to criticism of their loved one. That is no model for supporting a politician, and will have the reverse effect from the one you are hoping to achieve.

[cali]

60. I suspect it's called giving lip service

c'mon, what else is he going to say? republicans suck ass and they can fuck off and die?

[liberal N proud]

6. Thank you for saying that

[mshasta]

7. will not apply for

the conservative radio, I don't get any liberal radio in Sacramento, and this talk shows are raising hell asking where is Obama on this financial crisis ...that he needs to step up and decide what to do with the big automakers....bitching and bitching..

[kwassa]

9. Sorry, bitchin' is what we do at DU. It is why we are here.

We don't need no stinkin' reason.

[MarianJack]

11. You're right!

Barack Obama is our President-Elect (I just LOVE saying and writing that) for one reason.

In a campaign where he was given NO CHANCE early on, he showed his capacity for surrounding himself with the smartest 21st century political minds and was always able to remain steady and presidential while his opponents hung themselves. He deserves the benefit of the doubt from his own supporters.

Sometimes I think that even the Democrats have gotten so conditioned to a stupid president that some of us don't comprehend that the President is in charge. He sets the policies, appoints the Cabinet and, if necessary, fire those Cabinet Officials who don't follow Administration policy.

I don't remember a President taking office in succh a strong position in my lifetime. Probably the strongest new President before Obama was Eisenhower in 1953 and before that, FDR in 1933.

As Plaid Addre correctly said, Obama is smarter than we are.

Another DRer used one of my favorite sig lines from this election, I can imagine our Prez-Elect saying "Everybody chill the FUCK OUT! I got this"

GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. He's earned it. If and when he fouls up, I'll criticize him. Until then (and at least until he's in office) I'm going to let him do what he has shown he is quite capable of doing, govern, inspire and LEAD!

PEACE!

BTW, I think I may post this as a separate thread, too, but I'm giving you a K&R kevinds13.

[OldBlueDem]

12. Thank you and Amen!

[Orsino]

13. Nope. Waiting before complaining means...

...eventually being told that it's too late to complain. :eyes:

After eight years of Bush/Cheney, we've learned that nothing gets fixed unless we speak up, continuously. Obama has won the captaincy of a sinking ship, and will be hearing screams from all the passengers pretty soon.

Don't shut up--act up. Complain. Demand. Insist on getting your needs addressed.

edit: I should add, of course, that our complaints should be constructive. But we must remain engaged; our slogan was not "Yes, he can."

[kevinds13]

15. I see your point

and its a good one.

Most people here at DU, however, are bitching because he's considering people he disagree's with (and in turn, people most DU disagree's with) while missing the point: HE DISAGREES WITH THEM.

Thats the main point people should take out of this. Yes, he has devil's advocates in his potential Cabinet. But considering he makes the final decision, thats who we should care most about and he's the one we voted for.

Obama has the final say.

Also, the "Yes, he can" line..."Yes WE can" includes people like Clintonites...they voted for/supported Obama too. Just cause they aren't as progressive or liberal or whatever doesn't mean they don't deserve a say, right?

[Orsino]

18. Yeah. He's building perhaps the Biggest Tent Ever.

Some of us may be missing the point of the "team of rivals" Obama has referenced. It's not so much that Obama wants disagreement; it's that the work before us is so enormous that we must gather as many people as possible into our coalition--which guarantees disagreement.

Obama is our shepherd--for the biggest goddamned herd of cats EVAR. He's obviously not afraid of criticism, and has proven that he handles it well, ignoring it when possible and shutting it down elegantly otherwise. This bodes very well.

[Two Americas]

21. it is not a big tent

Input and influence from right wingers and corporations is being welcomed, but input and influence from the left and the people is not.

It is a very small tent. We are supposed to stay outside of the big top and keep shoveling the elephant manure.

[Orsino]

22. It's a big tent...

...but the Left is always gonna be the last brought on board. I think Obama will find that he needs us, but his solutions are unlikely to match our desires.

edit: But maybe you meant that no tent can be really big without the Left. I guess I'd agree.

[Two Americas]

24. the Left = the people

And yes, the people will be the last brought on board, if they ever are.

Anyone who disputes that the political Left and the best interests of the people are not one and the same does not understand what it means to be in any sort of opposition the the right wing, or is in sympathy with the right wing, or is estranged from and deaf to the working people or a combination of those.

The political Left is not about adherence to an ideology, it is about what is best for the people.

The people - finally! - have thoroughly rejected conservative economics. Yet the conservatives among us in party activist circles are engaged in a desperate effort to confuse us about that, to deny the truth, to save Reaganomics and to force the party to the right.

As FDR said -

An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was. The election of 1932 was the people's mandate to end it. Under that mandate it is being ended.

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike.

The brave and clear platform adopted by this convention, to which I heartily subscribe, sets forth that government in a modern civilization has certain inescapable obligations to its citizens, among which are protection of the family and the home, the establishment of a democracy of opportunity, and aid to those overtaken by disaster.

But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.

[Orsino]

27. The People *ought* to be on the Left...

...and move that way the moment they begin to think. But the TV's lullabies are powerful.

I don't think we've actually rejected conservative economics. We've simply traded our fascist in on a moderate, pragmatic conservative--who has the brains and the courage, maybe, to lead us to the left as required.

I do believe that America will stand or fall according to how far to the left Obama is willing to lead us. The TV will be fighting him every step of the way.

I think Obama may be our last chance to get it right. If he, and we, don't step up on Day One, America may be over.

[Two Americas]

28. only on the "culture war" issues

On true political matters involving power and economics, the people are significantly to the left of most in the activist community and all of the party leadership.

In a representative democracy, the politicians follow as much as they lead. A good politician - and Obama may well turn out to be an exceptional one - follows as much as they lead, and responds to what the people need and then do what needs to be done for the people - that is by definition "far left" - rather than doing what the politician "wants" or supposedly "is" or "stands for."

Electing politicians to office is not like hiring a CEO or naming a new Pope - so competence and ideology are secondary concerns - it is selecting a delegate to represent the common people in the halls of power. All politicians will always be "to the right" from the people, since they are highly successful and move in those circles of the wealthy and powerful. Any move to the left comes from us pressuring them and demanding that.

[bvar22]

45. He disagreed with telecom immunity.....

...but voted FOR it.

He disagreed with a No Strings Attached Bailout for the Wall St CEOs, but voted FOR it.

Can see why some of us who are paying attention have some concerns?

[Two Americas]

20. absolutely

It is always too early, or too late. There must be some 5 second period of time somewhere in there that is a free speech zone, but I have yet to find it.

Ironically the OP is simultaneously saying that it is too late AND that it is too early.

"Too late! You voted for him, so you have to live with it!" and also "it is too early! He has not yet taken office!"

[Orsino]

23. As Bush once claimed to have done, we've earned political capital...

...by helping to push Obama over the top. We need to spend it while we can, because Big Money is already waiting at his office door.

[MessiahRp]

14. Broad and Inclusive

As long as it doesn't include anyone from the left. Right?

So we're supposed to shut up and not state our disagreements with Obama's choices? It seems you didn't listen to the man ONCE on the campaign trail. He wants and expects there to be dissent. He wants us to hold him accountable.

Our founding fathers, most notably Jefferson, thought it most patriotic to dissent if we disagree. It was everyone's role as a good citizen in a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY to do so.

I have no doubts Obama will be a good President, but so far the DLC/Corporate Democrats are running up the score in a shut out against any liberals... and if all he's going to appoint are people from the Center-Right or the Right, that does not represent the "broad, inclusive" administration that we believed he would have going in.

The left has a right, especially after the last 30 years to ask, "Who cares about us?". The center and the right have had a completely unbalanced run of it the past 30 years and we have a right to wonder when Mr. Obama will choose to include us in the mix as well.

Rp

[kevinds13]

16. You know how many people in his Cabinet, none?

We're jumping the shark before the verdict is even in.

[MessiahRp]

17. I highly doubt he's going to float all of these names out there

and then pull back just before he can nominate them. It would embarrass the people that were named not to mention make his Administration look indecisive and foolish.

Rp

[kevinds13]

19. Again, I agree.

But he's floated 5 positions. There are around two-dozen Cabinet spots. There are Supreme Court picks coming up, there are Federal Court picks, there are sub-Cabinet posts...

EDIT: Gotta give a shout out to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7904414&mesg_id=7904414

[Two Americas]

25. no one is jumping any shark

We are speaking out and expressing our opinions, as we have always done.

What has changed?

What has changed is not anything the critics are doing or saying, what has changed is that there is now an all out effort to drive the party to the right, to hijack the mandate the public just delivered, to obscure the truth about the utter rejection of Reaganomics by the people, and turn it into some demand for more watered-down centrist Republican lite politics - libertarianism with an "organic" label slapped on it. Antagonizing and smearing and dismissing any and all speakers for the political Left and for the desperate needs of the people is the tactic being used to accomplish that.

[AtomicKitten]

26. Ya, okay. I'll stop sending him my "hey change-boy" emails. 1-20-09 it is.

[JoFerret]

30. Yes - keep the gender-specific complaining

to the minimum. Better still - stop.

Obama is doing a superb job of building a team of competence.
There will be plenty of time to carp later.

[Two Americas]

32. a pejorative description of critics

Critical analysis and the free expression of opinions and ideas are not necessarily "carping," and is not merely an exercise in self-expression that we should need permission for or accept any restrictions on or qualifications for.

If there is "plenty of time" then why are the wealthy and powerful insiders moving so quickly to influence the administration? They are not waiting to see, or giving the administration a chance. Why should not our voices be heard as well?

[HughMoran]

41. CARP is just CRAP misspelled

So, let's not forget that we all have opinions and yours is no more relevant than anybody else's here.

[Two Americas]

42. not sure what you mean

I made no such claim. Nor would I call your opinions "crap" even were I to disagree with them.

I don't agree that all opinions are of equal value. I don't agree that all comments are equally relevant.

[Skittles]

36. GET OVER YOURSELF

this is a POLITICAL BOARD - STOP TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO SAY AND THINK

[HughMoran]

39. lol

You're funny!

:rofl:

[Skittles]

46. silencing people on a political board AINT'T FUNNY

[HughMoran]

47. Nobody can be silenced

That's a falacy that I read about on other sites - whining people who can't understand why everyone doesn't agree with them - while they spit into the faces of the majority of those who they would like to influence.

[Skittles]

49. now you're the one being funny

:rofl:

[HughMoran]

52. I am

Removing the false cloud of complicity that so many would cast - it's humorous.

:)

[kevinds13]

58. LOL

Aren't you, by posting that telling me to stop...telling me to stop? Who's silencing who?

[HughMoran]

38. Hear! Hear!

I agree with everything you've said, so all I can do is K&R at this point.

[Dem2theMax]

57. Picture a sandbox.

Fill it full of five-year olds, fighting over one favorite toy.

Welcome to DU. :evilgrin:


(I'll get flamed for that one. But this place and a sandbox full of five-year olds have a lot in common.) ;)

And no flames from me. I agree with you. :hi:

[lamp_shade]

59. I'm hearing you... and kicking this.