Hillary's not a good enough manager to be SoS

[midnight armadillo]

Hillary showed during the slow-motion train wreck of her campaign that she just doesn't have the management chops to run a large organization, although I think she'd make a fine diplomat. The Dept of State has been beaten bloody for the last 8 years, after Powell failed to stand up to Rumsfeld, followed by whatever trials they've gone through under Rice.

While Kerry might do fine, I'm starting to think that Richardson with his gubernatorial and diplomatic experience might be the best candidate for the job. It's not enough to patch up relations abroad, we also need the DoS to be a well-functioning institution.

[xultar]

1. I think I have to agree with that, I'm no fan of Kerry or Richardson in the post either.

I don't think Kerry or Richardson ran a great campaign and Richardson pissed me off in the primaries with his Logo interview when he 'mispoke' and said being GLBT was a choice.

[Genevieve]

2. delete. nt

[xultar]

3. Read the rest I added, you may wanna adjust your reply. Sorry.

[Genevieve]

10. Thanks.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

24. John Kerry's loss in 2004 showed him how to be a much better statesman.

I don't have a problem with him or Richardson in that role. They are diplomats. Hillary Clinton is a politician who I think can do great things in the U.S. Senate.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

25. John Kerry's loss in 2004 showed him how to be a much better statesman.

I don't have a problem with him or Richardson in that role. They are diplomats. Hillary Clinton is a politician who I think can do great things in the U.S. Senate.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

26. John Kerry's loss in 2004 showed him how to be a much better statesman.

I don't have a problem with him or Richardson in that role. They are diplomats. Hillary Clinton is a politician who I think can do great things in the U.S. Senate.

[xultar]

40. Now, I don't know about that.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

46. Don't know about what? I made several claims in my post.

[xultar]

58. I don't know about all of that. Kerry and Richardson being statesman and not politicians...

is crap they are politicians pure and simple.
They are no better statesman than anyone else in the senate.

[DCBob]

4. She will be a fine SoS. Sounds like its a done deal to me so you might as well get over it.

The fact that this "rumor" has survived for several days means its serious and likely already decided.

[babylonsister]

6. It's far from a 'done deal'. nt

[DCBob]

9. Wanna bet?

[babylonsister]

12. Sure...

http://www.jedreport.com/2008/11/buzz-fizzle.html

Advisers to the onetime rivals for the Democratic nomination confirmed Friday that President-elect Barack Obama had met with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday afternoon at Mr. Obama's transition office in Chicago and discussed the secretary of state job.

The prospect of Mrs. Clinton as secretary of state, perhaps the most prestigious cabinet position in any administration, sent people buzzing. But associates to both Democrats cautioned that their conversation included other cabinet possibilities and that no job was offered. Democrats said late Friday that Mr. Obama had also met with another oft-mentioned candidate for the post, Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, to discuss the secretary of state job.

Still, the fact that Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton had even met to discuss such a possibility left even some of their closest advisers and allies talking about the pros and cons of so close a partnership, and about how it would be complicated by a third wheel: Mrs. Clinton's globe-trotting husband, former President Bill Clinton.

And then there's this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7873858

[DCBob]

18. That's the "official line". I seriously doubt they would let this thing go so long...

if there were any show stoppers. Plus Hillary comments yesterday suggest she is serious. She could have killed all the speculation but instead she said this:

"I'm not going to speculate or address anything about the president-elect's incoming administration, I'm going to respect his process. Any inquiries should be directed to his transition."

In the past, Hillary has always be quick to kill speculation on other rumored appointments she wasn't interested in and if Obama now does not select her, that could cause old ugly wounds to reopen.

I would have preferred Richardson but Hillary will be fine, she is qualified and is well known around the world and there are other "issues" that make her a good choice. I think its about 90% probability.

[babylonsister]

19. You've failed to address the elephant in the room named Bill.

Do you think they will agree to a full vetting? I have my doubts.

[DCBob]

23. I doubt they will demand a full vetting of Bill.

The Obama administration knows very well Bill's baggage. They went through that during the VP selection process. If that was a show stopper they would not even have considered her for SoS.

[babylonsister]

27. How do you know what they went through during the VP selection

process?

http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/saturday/nation/ny-ushill235812764aug23,0,793102.story

Clinton wasn't vetted for VP, her aides say

BY CRAIG GORDON AND ELIZABETH MOORE | [e-mail] and [e-mail]
August 23, 2008

WASHINGTON - With Barack Obama set to break his silence on a running mate Saturday morning, Hillary Rodham Clinton's long-shot hopes dimmed further Friday - as Clinton aides signaled Obama never seriously vetted her for the job.

Two Clinton sources said Obama never asked Clinton for financial and other records that would be a requisite part of the vetting process, the detailed examination of a potential running mate's past designed to avoid any post-announcement surprises.

Obama's campaign refused to comment. Clinton herself has told associates that she doesn't expect the job to come her way.

In fact, one Clinton source who declined to be identified said Friday: "If it were to happen, the person who would be the most surprised is her."

more...

[DCBob]

29. I heard that the Bill issue was the main reason Hillary was not seriously considered for VP

They may not have fully vetted her but it is common knowledge that Bill has had some questionable foreign business dealings and donations to his library. The Obama folks knew that then and they know that now. I suspect they will try to gloss it over and hope it does not blow up during the confirmation process.

[babylonsister]

31. You are dreaming if you think it won't matter. Why borrow trouble?

Why go through a grueling confirmation process if they don't have to? I see you like Hillary, and her selection to SoS wouldn't bother me if she's who Obama thinks will do the best job, but at some point we have to let some reality seep in.

[DCBob]

33. No, I don't "like" Hillary as SoS. I preferred Richardson. Just facing reality now.

Anyway I done debating this. We will know soon enough. I suspect we will know next week. Lets check back then and see who was right. Peace.

[cherokeeprogressive]

82. If the vetting for ANY prospective candidate for SoS DIDN'T include any and ALL family members

Why have a vetting process at all?

And NO, the Obama administration DOES NOT KNOW what baggage Bill might have hidden in the garage.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

101. Bill

is a giant wart on the ass of progress for Hillary... that's for sure. He still sounds like he just can't believe Obama won.

I think Hillary would make a fine SoS - btw.

[dkf]

17. Rumor says Richardson is being considered too.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/11/obama_weighs_clinton_richardso.php

Obama weighs Clinton, Richardson as sec. of state

Obama interviews ex-rivals Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bill Richardson as secretary of state

NEDRA PICKLER
AP News

Nov 15, 2008 00:04 EST

President-elect Barack Obama has interviewed primary election rivals Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bill Richardson for secretary of state, according to Democratic officials who revealed his secret meetings with both as he weighed the decision on folding former foes into his new administration. Obama met with Richardson late Friday afternoon, a day after conferring one-on-one with Clinton at his Chicago office, said several Democratic officials.

....

The meeting with Clinton, revealed to The Associated Press Friday, excited a burst of speculation that Obama would transform the former first lady and his fierce campaign foe into one of his top Cabinet officials and the nation's chief diplomatic voice. But where she stands in contention for the post came into question as other Democrats, also speaking on condition of anonymity about the private discussions, said Richardson was brought in as well.

The two are not the only candidates Obama has talked to about the job, Democrats said. One senior Obama adviser said the president-elect has given no evidence whom he is favoring for the post.

Obama asked Clinton directly whether she would be interested in the job, said one Democrat, who cautioned that it was no indication that he was leaning toward her.

[DCBob]

21. Yeah, he "had" to meet with Richardson even if it was a done deal for Hillary.

Richardson had been considered the likely SoS for some time so it would have been an insult not to meet with him and make it look like they were seriously considering him.

[dkf]

28. I don't see why you assume Hillary is the choice.

I guess you also assume Lieberman is keeping his chairmanship too?

All of this is just rumor.

[DCBob]

30. Just reading the tea leaves.

Many factors pointing towards Hillary now.

[dkf]

34. Well leaking it is asking for blowback on both sides.

I'm disappointed that Obama isn't running a tighter ship. It should be that if you leak, its over.

[KittyWampus]

38. there are ZERO factors pointing to Hillary now. All that exists is a rumor spread by some Democratic

operatives.

And lying to reporters to advance your pet cause is not unheard of. In fact, it's to be expected. Especially among certain camps.

[Life Long Dem]

57. Haa haa ha!

No anonymous sources for McSame's meeting. Yet they still only have an anonymous source about Hillary, that somehow seems to be turning into a fact.

But we all know, this is just to put it out there to pull it back so Obama looks bad, like he was putting a carrot out there to pull it back. This is to divide the party.

[babylonsister]

5. Any thoughts on Richard Holbrooke?

I know he's old school, but he has quite a resume.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Holbrooke

[Fabio]

8. He's kind of a pill

[Captain Hilts]

45. True. Like Richardson, no one really wants to be in a room with him for HOURS. nt

[Fabio]

54. diplomacy by attrition. tee hee.

[grantcart]

7. If you are basing this on her campaign then the bottom line is that

she is very good. She got more primary votes than any person in the history of the country until Obama who completely reinvented modern campaigning out did her.

She did start with enormous advantages and did make some glaring mistakes but she also had enormous committment and tenacity to pursue her objectives.

Now the interesting thing is that Presdient-Elect Obama had a front row seat and he seems to disagree with you.

Even among Senator Clinton's ideological enemies she is given high marks for running a very effective Senate office and excels among Senators in the job of distilling policy positions, one of the main management objectives of a United States Senator.

[Blarch]

13. Obama reinvented campaging...

by removing the negative attacks.

Hillary took the old path. She lost by taking the same old path of attack and spin. Obama didn't have much to do with her fall.

[grantcart]

16. He did a lot more than that he reinvented campaign financing and a maximum state

contest.


Hillary (and every other candidate except Obama took the old path). My point was not that she was more or less positive or moral or modern or old, simply that the meme going around that she is a bad manager based on her campaign is not supported by the facts.

The facts are, except for PE Obama, she ran a more effective campaign than anyone else from a strictly bottom line assessment.

[Captain Hilts]

47. In March of '07 he was already being predicted as winning...

he had to VASTLY outspend her to crawl across the finishline.

They were both great candidates and I wish either had run against Bush in '04!

[hlthe2b]

14. I tend to agree with you, grantcart....

She has run an impressive Senatorial office and it is only the incredible ground-breaking innovation of the Obama campaign that could make Hillary Clinton's look somewhat less organized and weak by comparison. In reality, it was not, but she did make some personal mistakes. Ultimately, though, she came up against an inevitable juggernaut. This was to be Obama's year, whether you believe in destiny or not. The people saw in him, the epitome of what this country needs now. I have a hard time imagining a winning campaign against him in this time period.

As SOS, she will set the course for management, but will surely have steady hands surrounding her to carry out those missives. I do believe Hillary Clinton knows how to pick these associates, how to assure effectiveness at all levels. I also believe there are career staff at State who are drooling (and holding on against their own interests, deciding not to early retire or leave) just waiting for the kind of change that any of the top tier SOS candidates will bring. I don't worry, in that respect about a Clinton, Kerry, or Richardson at the helm.

[dkf]

20. John McCain won his nomination but his campaign stunk even worse.

He looks like an awful manager to me.

The amazing thing about Obama's campaign wasn't only that he won, but that his campaign was so damned thought out and well executed. Even this transition looks well done. Its too bad he doesn't have a twin.

As a manager, neither McCain nor Hillary seem to be the cream of the crop.

I don't know how Richardson is at this. Maybe we need to examine his skills more closely.

[midnight armadillo]

22. yes, based on her campaign

Her campaign was filled with infighting amongst her advisors, lack of decisive decision making by Clinton, wasteful money management, scattershot ads and other media responses, and poor handling of on-the-ground campaigning.

Here is just one of many references...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/us/politics/10clinton.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
Still, interviews with campaign aides, associates and friends suggest that Mrs. Clinton, at least until February, was a detached manager. Juggling the demands of being a candidate, she paid little attention to detail, delegated decisions large and small and deferred to advisers on critical questions. Mrs. Clinton accepted or seemed unaware of the intense factionalism and feuding that often paralyzed her campaign and that prevented her aides from reaching consensus on basic questions like what states to fight in and how to go after Mr. Obama, of Illinois.

These stories came out in great detail after Obama clinched the nomination and Clinton insiders began revealing what had been going on behind the scenes. Contrast these with the Obama campaign, which showed him to be a very effective manager of a large organization. Clinton may be an effective senator, be very intelligent, yadda yadda but the evidence is against her management skills.

[always_saturday]

39. Well said. I voted for her myself in the VA primary.

[karynnj]

103. She didn't get more primary votes before Obama

In the first place, primary votes is a ridiculous measure in a system with caucuses and primaries - you are adding apples and oranges. The relative weight of the states is completely distorted. Ignoring that, the number of votes cast in a primary is negatively correlated to the strength of the front runner. The extreme is an unchallenged incumbent. In states with no competitive race on the ballot, many don't vote - even political junkies.

On distilling policy positions, she is not one of the Senate leaders I hear quoted by other Senators. She is extremely high profile because she is HRC, but she really has not taken a role in leading on any issue I can think of in the Senate. Part of that is because she really is pretty junior. But, in committee hearings I've watched, I've never seen her as one who influences the subsequent questions and comments of others. I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't seen it.

[stray cat]

11. Kerry and Richardson did not run stellar camapigns either

Although I don't think that will be the key decider.

[ProSense]

35. Kerry didn't end his campaign with a record $31 million dollar debt

Then there is Hillary's $36 million Senate campaign against a weak candidate.

Kerry ran a great primary campaign and came close to unseating Bush.

[karynnj]

60. Kerry's primary campaign was excellent

His general election one had divisions once Clinton and Edwards people were added - but it still did not have as much public infighting as Clinton's - on that the biggest problems were Clinton people whining to the media that Kerry wasn't Clinton and wasn't listening enough to him (and to them).

[Sensitivity]

15. Compared to who's campaign? Biden? Richardson? I am more concerned with her INTEGRITY

and the implications for a new face of U.S. in the world.

I think Hillary is smart, but is viewed with her husband as very much a DO AND SAY WHATEVER YOU NEED TO WIN approach to everything.

[S_E_Fudd]

32. So you are arguing Kerry and Richardson ran better campaigns...

Than Hillary?

[ProSense]

37. Far better

The fundraising records Obama shattered belonged to Kerry. His online operation was a first of its kind. Dean introduced the 50 state strategy, but Kerry went from being down to running a ground game in Iowa that led to him winning the primary.

[S_E_Fudd]

41. John Kerry lost to the most unpopular incumbent...

In American history...

Bill Richardson's campaign dramatically underperformed expectations...

[ProSense]

42. BS! John Kerry won the primary without runnin up a $31 million debt

Bush was not the most unpopular incumbent in American history in 2004. Bush's approval rating then was stil over 50%.

[S_E_Fudd]

53. Most unpopular to win reelection...

Absolutely he was...Kerry should have won going away

[ProSense]

55. No president with an approval at or over 50% has ever lost.

Not only did Kerry almost unseat Bush, but the GOP also had to rely on dirty tactics, most notably in Ohio, to pull out a win.

Kerry also got about 49% of the popular vote, which is six percent higher than Clinton in his first run, and about the same as what Clinton achieved as an incumbent.

[KittyWampus]

43. Kerry was fighting with a moribund DNC behind him, Richardson clearly isn't cut out for

the circular firing squads known as Primaries. At least not on a national level. He also hugely underperformed at the debates.

SoS doesn't have to excel in debates. Nor at political infighting.

[karynnj]

61. He was NOT the most unpopular incumbent in 2004 - only about 3 1/2 years later

He was around 50% - GHWB was at 33% and Carter was pretty low too.

[S_E_Fudd]

102. Most unpopular to win reelection...

Neither Carter or GHWB were reelected

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. Yes She Is. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

44. George W. Bush ran two great campaigns - let's offer the job to him!

[ProSense]

48. How misguided.

Gore got 500,000 more votes than Bush.

[TankLV]

50. It's not about the "votes" it's about the "campaign" and it was a great "campaign" you've got to

admit - he WON in spite of the other guy getting more votes!

That's THE definition of "great campaining"...

Notice I never said anything about it being "just", or "fair", or "good"...

[ProSense]

52. Oh BS, the SCOTUS decision was not part of the campaign.

That's idiotic.

[TankLV]

49. Let me guess - you're an irrational Hillary Hater...

why am I not surprised...

[midnight armadillo]

56. Read the article

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/us/politics/10clinton.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

I didn't say I hated her, I merely stated the evidence is that management is not her strong suit. I can't say it's mine either, for that matter.

[Hanse]

62. His arguments sound rational to me.

Are you an irrational Hillary lover?

[LittleBlue]

51. Agreed.... after that debacle, she was proven an inattentive and

ineffective manager.

Just thinking about the desperate race-baiting as a means of strategy makes me ill.

[Metric System]

59. Would Richardson pass the questionnaire? There are a lot of rumors out there about him.

Note: I keep hearing about the questionnaire in relation to Hillary, so I think it's only fair that I question other SOS possibilities.

[Beacool]

63. And yet she almost won the nomination and got 18 million votes.

Go figure.........

:eyes:



Same crap different day on this board.......

:puke:

[zuul9]

64. News Flash ... SHE LOST THE NOMINATION... GET OVER IT !

[Beacool]

65. And you people need to get over the eternal Clinton hate.

It's beyond pathetic by now.

[zuul9]

66. Not if that drama queen thinks shes going to be SOS

Not only should they be vetted, but they should be kept as far from Obama as possible for his own safety. After the Bobby Kennedy statements, the FBI should be keeping a close eye on those two.

[Beacool]

67. The "drama queen" was invited to meet with Obama in Chicago.

Go tell Obama that you don't approve of him asking her if she wants the job.

The Kennedy statement is just plain bullshit and you know it.

Pathetic........

:crazy:

[ShortnFiery]

68. So was Bill Richardson. Lanny Davis, et. al., have been whining NON-STOP. eom

[Beacool]

70. Richardson didn't meet with Obama.

He met with members of the transition team, therein lies the difference.

;)

[ShortnFiery]

76. No, Richardson DID meet with Obama on Friday. Here's the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/11/15/ST2008111500401.html

As word of Clinton's emergence as a serious candidate spread, Obama held a separate meeting Friday with New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, a Democratic official said, a signal that another opponent in the Democratic nominating contest with a deep résumé is also under consideration.

[Metric System]

74. The poster you're responding to called Hillary the b-word in another thread. Now I can see why he'd

think that's an acceptable word to call her around here, but I assume it's someone here to cause trouble.

[ShortnFiery]

77. Oh come on. You can do better than this tag-team DRAMA?

:evilgrin:

[Metric System]

78. WTF? Why don't you go take issue with that poster who referred to Hillary as a b-word. Or maybe you

approve.

[ShortnFiery]

83. If this troubles you, why don't you PM the person instead of OPENLY calling them out? eom

[Metric System]

89. Interesting that the use of the b-word doesn't bother you. Why would I PM a trouble-maker? I've

already alerted. Why are you defending that poster?

[ShortnFiery]

90. Hey, it's not the Alpha and Omega. If I punished every troop who called me "a bitch" in the

US Army during the 1980s, I'd have been far too busy to perform my duties. :eyes:

[Beacool]

79. It's ironic how much more vitriol is spewed by the left than the right

on this subject. Same as during the primaries. Some are a very sad bunch of people, their reality appears to be in black and white, while it's rarely the case. Complex issues are exactly that, complex and are not prone to absolutes. I sincerely hope that none of these people are in the diplomatic corps.

:)

[ShortnFiery]

87. You know that you right leaning folks have also "had your moments?" No one is innocent here.

;) :hi:

[Beacool]

106. I agree with you on that subject.

BTW, not "right leaning" folks, just moderates.

:D

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Metric System]

84. I think you better stop while you're ahead. There just may be a pizza delivery in your near future.

[Beacool]

86. Are you for real?????????

Do you really believe what you are saying??????

Hillary is a former First Lady, a sitting US senator, was a presidential candidate and maybe will become Secretary of State and you truly think that she's out to physically harm Obama?

What the hell is the matter with you?????????

:wow:

[Metric System]

95. Where are the mods tonight? I can't believe that there are longtime posters here who can't see this

poster for what he is and are actually agreeing with him. On second thought, yes I can believe it. In some ways he fits right in. But in some very detectable ways you can tell he resides under a bridge.

[Beacool]

108. I left, I had enough Clinton bashing for one night.

I do see though that the mods finally deleted the offending message.

:eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

88. I concur. If she can be blackmailed because of Bill's connections, then she's ALSO a NO GO.

That's the truth - plain and simple. It has nothing to do with morality ... it's REALITY. Bill Clinton's business ties since he left the Presidency must be FULLY vetted for the sake of National Security.

[Metric System]

94. That's not what the poster you're responding to stated. He's actually saying that Hillary poses a

threat to Obama's safety. In other words, she wants to do him harm. You concur? Really?

You're saying she needs to be vetted for legitimate reasons, that poster is saying she needs to be investigated for possible harm to Obama. Big difference.

[Marrah_G]

99. Bea- don't feed it.

[Beacool]

107. Geez, we got some nutty people around here.

At least the message was deleted.

:eyes:

[TahitiNut]

91. Awww...

:nopity:

:eyes:

[Metric System]

96. Having fun?

[Erin Elizabeth]

105. This again?

She did not almost win the nomination. Have you read the really long multi-chapter Newsweek piece on the behind the scenes stuff? Her campaign was way more of a mess than I even thought. Good Lord.

[Whoa20]

69. She actually came closer to winning the Dem nomination

than Kerry came to winning the Presidency. One can even argue she won more votes. Her primary camp was better than Kerry's GE camp, so she's a better manager than him. If you wanna talk Richardson, he couldn't even gain traction with Latinos. She is the best choice out of all of them. Plus she managed 2 highly successful senate runs, the first was an uphill battle with upstate NY.

[MadBadger]

85. No, nobody can argue that at all

She didnt come close to winning the primary. She lost it in February.

[Whoa20]

92. she won more votes than he did

and nearly as many delegates.

[MadBadger]

93. Ignoring your fuzzy logic, this thing was over after he won his 11th primary in a row.

[tekisui]

100. No she didn't.

She did not win more votes, and not "nearly as many" delegates.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

71. She wouldn't have to manage a large organization to be a good SoS.

She would just have to be good at engaging various leaders one on one, listening, and brokering compromises.

[Muttocracy]

81. how big is the State Department? nt

[vanderBeth]

72. This isn't what I was thinking.

But nobody will convince me that she ran a "good" campaign.

[zuul9]

73. The most dangerous thing with her is that she will be running her own presidency in the SOS office

You add Bill to the mix and were back to reliving the Clinton drama again.

[camera obscura]

75. Well I would hope Hillary has learned - skills trump loyalty

after the fiasco that was Mark frickin' Penn.

But I agree that Richardson is best for the post.

[fujiyama]

97. I still think Hillary would do a fine job in this position

She's tough, yet incredibly sharp. She doesn't look like she'd back down under negotiations. I think she'd be great at this role.

And her and Bill have a GREAT reputation abroad. I really think that this would be a very smart appointment. For Hillary, the downside is that she'd give up a chance to move up in the senate. But as the junior senator, she's still somewhat limited. And she'd lose the power to advocate domestic policies like health care. Another thing is she'd be tied to Obama successes and failures and his policies. Assuming he's successful it would look good to be coming out of his cabinet. Otherwise, it may be rough. Also, as has been noted it's not often that a SoS is kept for the entire 8 years.

I was originally in favor of her being VP, but this is also a great role for her.

[TexasObserver]

98. I'm sure Hillary will do well as Sec of State.

She will be the Sec of State with the most impact since Kissinger. Easily.

[Erin Elizabeth]

104. I'm in favor of Kerry, myself.

I think he'd make an excellent Secretary of State. I took about a week to really think this through and he's the best choice, in my opinion.