Call me when the forgery doom and gloomers have stopped.

[democrat_patriot]

Jeezus people. Get a grip.

* disobeyed a direct order to take a physical. I don't care if it was written in crayon. Chiseled on a cave wall, or typed on an IBM selectric/Executive with Times New Roman.

I guess you guys are right. It seems there is no way Kerry can win, cause the experts at 60 minutes have no clue what they've been doing for the last 20 years. And the entire election hinges on this story.

How easy is it for us to get off topic?

Did you think the Right-wing was just going to lay down? They have teams and teams of people that have no other job than to SPIN. That's why they were hired. They are REAl good at it.

This story will either take off, or die. And all the crying on this forum isn't going to change that.

Your either with this campaign or your not. Stop repeating the forgery lie. Who's f-in side are you on????

In the time it took for you to post a "We're gonna lose cause the documents are forged" post, you could have written an LTTE, called your congressman or stuffed some envelopes for the Kerry campaign.

We have 7 weeks left. Try and focus your powers in a positive direction. Hope is on the way.

[wryter2000]

1. Forgery happy thought

If the documents are examined and found to be 100% legitimate (which they are, of course), this could backfire on the rw. It'll keep the story in the news for a while instead of letting it die, and the ultimate verdict will be, "We examined these thoroughly, and they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the W* disobeyed a direct order and did not get his physical. Not only that, but his CO thought * was going over his head to get away with something."

Of course, that's in a rational world...

[arbusto_baboso]

2. The wingers WANT us to be discouraged....

and this whole false "forgery" angle is just a distraction to stop us from registering voters, precinct walking, phone banking, and just plain TALKING to people to get out the Kerry vote!

Don't be fooled, and keep in mind that these despicable shitbags are experts at psychological warfare.

[judge_smales]

3. And the

"Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Todays poll has us .0000001 points behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We're going to LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

people too.

[papau]

4. Media buys a BLOG that is presented to them by GOP as source -

No doom and gloom - But "powerline" blog has more credibility than CBS?

Idiots is becoming too weak a term to use for our mediawhores!

but I agree - Kerry is actually is good shape!

:-)

[Sandpiper]

5. I'm not a doom and gloomer

But the fact is, Kerry/Edwards have been running a weak campaign for the past month or so.

They've been run a reactive rather than a proactive campaign, and it all started with their failure to immediately squash the slander of the Swift Liars.

Since then, the Presidential Campaign has played right into the winguts hands. Nobody's paying attention to the issues, and the only thing being discussed is who did what 30 years ago, and whether documents from that time are real or not.

And as long as this goes on, it favors Bush not Kerry, because the issues are all overwhelmingly against Bush.

[democrat_patriot]

12. But ever since the RNC

They have taken no sh*t and come out swinging.

* is on the defensive, let's keep him there.

The economy has not been forged!!

[cheshire]

6. Some folks seem to love to swim in pity and doom. Have you given up?

We need people to keep the faith and cheer.

[BurtWorm]

7. Don't put your head in the sand over this.

The argument in favor of it being a forgery is too strong, I'm sorry to say. I'm truly, truly sorry to say it. Our own DUers have contributed to my being convinced of the opposite of what I would have hoped to be convinced of.

We need to look at the material evidence: Are these documents really what they purport to be? Their content is not as reliable a guide to their authenticity as their physical characteristics.

Do an experiment. Type out just one sentence that begins flush left and continues onto a new line using MS Times New Roman default size. Does the line end the same place as the one in the CBS document? Copy the lines, then copy the copy, the copy the copy. Check to see how the serifs bend after a couple copies of the copy. Is it the same bend as the ones in the CBS document?

[A_Possum]

10. Do an experiment

Pretend that you don't have access to the actual documents, and do an analysis of the "material evidence."

Oh, wait! You don't have to pretend that! You DON'T have access to the actual documents to do a material analysis. You don't know where they came from, you don't know what paper they're typed on, you don't know what the ink analysis is, you don't know what the handwriting analysis is, you can't see the indentations produced by the keystrikes.

So you are just fooling around in AmateurLand, based on a couple of web-ready digital scans, whereas CBS has been dealing with this kind of thing for decades and knows every scam in the book. Hmmm, who am I gonna trust to do a legitimate material analysis?

And you say others have their heads in the sand? NO COPY is going to be accepted as legitimate, because it WASN'T TYPED. Period.

This "copy the copy" stuff is simply an obvious hoax. Only a generation that grew up with ink-jet and laser printers could suppose you can't instantly tell whether a document was produced on a typewriter or a copier. THE KEYS PHYSICALLY STRIKE AND DEFORM THE PAGE. You can't reproduce that by copying, not in ANY MANNER. You MUST type the page on a typewriter.

DOH.

Now if the claim was that this HAD been typed on an old typewriter, as part of a fake, that would be different. But the claims that you can reproduce the font on Word just aren't worth the paper they're copied on. ;-P

[BurtWorm]

14. Suit yourself. Believe they're real if it makes you feel better.

I hope they are real for your sake and for the sake of every DUer who now has so much invested in their being real. Because if it's proven that they're not, it's going to be very painful to watch the fallout.

[democrat_patriot]

18. It's like a mirror. All of the freepers discrediting the SBVT's.

The Du'ers dicrediting AWOL cause of what they read on Dridge, and hear on Faux, C.n.n and A.BC. You know those media outlets OWNED by the RIGHT!

Oh wait, the freepers haven't discredited them have they? Because they will do whatever they need to to win.

We just happen to do it with the truth.

I have nothing invested in them being real. It doesn't matter. * DISOBEYED AN ORDER TO TAKE A PHYSICAL EXAM!!! There are no cries of that information being 'forged', and yet it's not talked about, because some notes written 30 years ago have a strange font.

I have a lot invested in ousting *. And there are thousands of reasons to do just that.

[BurtWorm]

19. I know Bush disobeyed the order to take the exam.

This document doesn't prove it.

[A_Possum]

21. Logic is perfect adequate for me, thank you

I am certain that Rove would be capable of faking something like this.

I am equally certain that the "copy of a copy" theory is just a lot of freeper hot air (note that I am not accusing you of being one, merely noting that's the origin of this theory), because phyically you cannot reproduce the true characteristics of a typewritten document in that manner.

I am also quite sure that 60 Minutes is not utterly clueless and would spot that kind of fake in an instant.

If it's proven that they are fakes, it won't be on the theory you've suggested, that's for sure, because it holds no water.

[BurtWorm]

26. It holds no water that the font on the CBS docs and TNR are exactly

the same size?

[Walt Starr]

27. The ONLY way to make that happen is to alter the size of the original!

Don't believe me? TRY IT!

[BurtWorm]

29. Heh?

I don't follow.

[Walt Starr]

32. Look, get the document released online. Try to superimpose a Word copy

the only way you can make it happen is to alter the size of the original! Even then, it's meaningless because now you have altered the point size of the original and lost vital clarity.

It's a meaningless exercise in BS, but it will all amount to nothing in the long term because these documents are real.

As we will see probably toninght on CBS.

This was the Friday news dump.

[BurtWorm]

34. I can only hope you're right.

I can only hope we haven't been sucker punched and rat fucked.

[Walt Starr]

39. Look at the signatures, too!

Yep, it's corroborative and Killian signed it. See it for yourself here:

The document in question:



A second CBS released document with a signature:



From Bush's discharge request:



Bush's 1971 Evaluation:



and finally, Bush's 1972 evaluation:



So, if indeed the first document was forged (the one brought into doubt over the typeface and superscript), Killian forged it himself and MUST have done it prior to his death in 1984. That EVIL Jerry Killian positioned his documents to come out and harm George W. Bush's chances for re-election TWO DECADES AGO OR MORE!

[BurtWorm]

41. I wish you hadn't shown me that, because the top sig

looks different from the others. The double "L" in Killiam is much lower and flatter. Also the top K's top diagonal circles back above the line while the ones beliow circle back below it.

[A_Possum]

33. Right, so what?

That's irrelevant.

Let's say you hand me a document that's dated 1971. I have reason to want to verify this was actually created on a typewriter at that date.

Your "copy of a copy" theory requires that the document was created in Word, then copied over enough times to make it look fuzzy.

However, the first thing I'll do is run my finger over the back of the page to see if I can feel the indentations made by the physical keystrokes. A document made on a copier won't have any, even under microscopic analysis. No keys ever struck the page. A document typed on a typewriter WILL have indentations, even if it was put into the machine with a second sheet, as was often done to make the back smoother.

I am making the assumption CBS is not stupid enough to overlook this. I'd also assume that paper which is 35-odd years old is probably showing its age.

Now, you COULD do a fake by taking 35 year old paper, putting it into a 35 year old typewriter, and typing it. And then you'd fool me on this point. (And in that case, there might still be ways to analyze it--ink and so forth--for authenticity, and I'd guess CBS would do that too. )

BUT, no, the font/copy theory just doesn't produce a fake that wouldn't be obvious to anyone holding the actual page.

[BurtWorm]

36. Does CBS claim to have the originals?

Or are they working from copies?

[A_Possum]

37. They appear to have the originals

In the Wednesday broadcast, 60 Minutes said the memos were "documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file."

In a statement, CBS News said it stands by its story.

"This report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Colonel Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking," the statement read.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

That's all I know.

[BurtWorm]

40. Nowhere does it say that they're not copies.

That's worrisome.

[A_Possum]

43. Suit yourself

Worry!

[democrat_patriot]

15. Exactly!! And does is really matter?

WMD's
Al-Qaeda and 9/11
Enron
Halliburton
SBVT
Plamegate.

I heard they were all forged too.

[Walt Starr]

23. Precisely! This is why I began my invstigation into the riboon

on the *ASSUMPTION* that they were, in fact, legitimate documents released by Bush.

Until we have the docs, it don't mean shit!

[wurzel]

11. These "forgeries" may be plants to do exactly what they are doing.

They were irrelevant to the original story of how Bush got into the Guard. Why were they used at all?

[BurtWorm]

16. You're absolutely right. that these documents, whether real or fake

prove nothing about Bush's "honorable behavior." Suppose they're proved fake. Does that suddenly mean Bush must have done his full service with the Guard? Of course not! Who benefits from their being found fake?

[democrat_patriot]

13. I don't need to, CBS and 60 minutes have already done it.

Do you think they would put this story out before looking at the evidence?

It's not like 60 minutes just started doing this type of reporting, it's what they do.

[BurtWorm]

17. And you trust CBS and 60 minutes?!

Why? Because they're telling you what you want to hear?

[democrat_patriot]

24. Because they've been sued succesfully only once.

In 20 years, 50 shows a year.

If they cme out with negative Kerry info, I would not like it, but I would think it had been sincerely vetted.

It's what they do.

[Walt Starr]

20. Pointone, WE HAVE NO MATERIAL EVIDENCE

We have electronic facsimiles of the original documents. ERGO, INTERNET INVESTIGATION INTO THE VALIDITY OF THE DOCUMENTS AMOUNT OT NOTHNG!!!

When you ahve the hard copies, you can *BEGIN* to investigate, not before.

[BurtWorm]

25. Then why accept their authenticity based on Internet investigation?

[Walt Starr]

30. I *DON'T*

I accept responsible journalism on the part of 60 Minutes. If I questioned the veracity of the documents, I would request a look at them.

But I also believe this will be a moot discussion once CBS news airs tonight. I believe that they are going to call Rove's bluff and raise him!

I sincerely believe they have additional documents, in the identical font with all of the extras that are *unimpeachable* because copies of these documents will exist in more than one location.

[BurtWorm]

38. Ideally, they will have new documents--originals, not copies

that they've received from sources other than the one they got these from.

[crickets]

35. I wouldn't accept their authenticity based on Internet investigation -

which is why I wouldn't accept their lack of authenticity based in Internet investigation either.

Had this story appeared on the nightly news, I might hesitate before accepting it so readily, no matter how much I wanted it to be true. CBS made the choice to run this on 60 Minutes rather than the evening news for a reason, and that is probably because 60 Minutes has a decades long reputation for integrity. This reputation was earned. There is a reason why there has been only one successful lawsuit against 60 Minutes in all the years they have been on the air, and it's because they don't air unsubstantiated stories. They just don't.

[MrBenchley]

8. Amen to that!

What's hilarious is that many of the same people wringing their hands now were the ones pissing and moaning that there weren't enough attacks on the Dim Son...and now they're pissing and moaning that there's been one...

He got a direct order (to take a physical, no less, not to strafe Ho Chi Minh's palace in Hanoi) to do what everybody else in the Guard did. There's no paperwork to show he obeyed that direct order when there should have been a ton of paperwork on his physical.

[ItsMyParty]

9. I don't see DUers saying its a forgery.......

not the majority of us here, anyway. That's what makes us so livid. We are simply reporting what the media has been happily twitering about since early morning. Of course, it will part of the evening news and of course it is and will be in newspapers. It's the fact that Rove has sidetracked the entire validity of the charges against Bush and, with the help of the media, is trying to make the totally dumbass American believe now that the papers are forged and therefore, Bush really didn't commit any of those sins. I mean, when the WTC went down, did you not want any reports because it was "doom and gloom". That's what's going on right now and there's not much any of us can do about it.

[Nederland]

22. I call bullshit

Your either with this campaign or your not. Stop repeating the forgery lie. Who's f-in side are you on????

This is pure bullshit. I don't give a rat's ass if the documents turn out to be forged or not, because there is no way I'm voting for Bush either way. However, I'm not going to sit and listen to someone that tells me I have to follow CBS news and the Kerry campaign line without question. I'm going to sit quietly and watch this whole thing play out, and I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that CBS news is incapable of fucking this up. If the documents turn out to be forged then so be it.

As to which side I'm on, I'm on the side of the truth. What f-in side are you on?

[BurtWorm]

28. Amen!

Thank you!

[democrat_patriot]

31. The side against *, the side for keeping our freedoms,

the side that says "we've had enough these last four years".

That side happens to be Democratic.
That side happens to be John Kerry.

I'm not syaing we should follow blindly, just that repeating the right-wing talking points are not helping any of us help the side for truth.

I believe we're on the same side. Everyone here wants * out of the White House.

Some want John Kerry.
Some want Anyone But Bush.

But I truly believe we all want the same thing. We're on the same team, let's fight Bush together is all I'm saying.

[BurtWorm]

42. Pretending everything is hunky dory with these documents

could be worse in the long-run.