Straight Talk On Gay Marriage

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

How do I feel about what happened with Proposition 8. Torn.

On one side there is my faith. It nutures me. It sustains my soul. It is locked deep within my DNA at a conscious and subconscious level. It is as natural to me as the deep mocha skintone I see in my mirror every day. I know my faith. I do believe that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. My political beliefs are not apart for my faith, they spring from it.

I know my faith teaches about this particular issue. But I also know that my faith teaches that we love thy neighbor as thyself and that is where I am torn.

My neighbor is that gay couple down the street who have been together 25 years through think and thin. Respected by all, cherished by many. They are beacon on the neighborhood where I live. How can I aid in oppressing them?

There are those in my family directly affected by this issue. Can I look myself in the mirror and deny their rights? Can I reconcile that with my God? Can I reconcile that with my faith?

How can I as a black man lobby for the cause of defending my civil rights then nakedly deny someone else? How I reconcile that? How could I in a sense, walk up to Bayard Rustin complement him on his part in the freedom movement and then slap him in the face? If I support this discrimination, that is what I am doing. And that is where I am torn.

The problem that you run into in regards to the straight black community and gays begins with this feeling of being torn. Many of my people are torn. More than many would admit. On one hand, there is faith and family. Both strong values that people just don't put to the side lightly, if at all. But on the other side, there is innate burning desire for fairness. There is the memories for some and the stories passed down for others of a past time when oppression was codified. When it was legal, when it was seen as Godly. When it comes to this issue, that feeling burns just as deep and strong. I am pained to see black churches, houses of faith and freedom co-opting with reactionaries, many of them Conservative reactionaries. These group come in and try to use our faith to sell this issue, but also try to sneak others through the back door. Remember, many of the same people who cry "No Gay Marriage" are the same people who'll invite Ward Connerly to tea. They are the same people who said this financial crisis was the fault of "All them damn minorities". The scripture tells us to be wary of false prophecy and be wary of bearing false witness against thy neighbor. Many of these groups in opposition do both.

We straight folks need to acknowledge being torn. We have to acknowledge that we do struggle. That is where a lasting victory will begin. We have to be honest with ourselves and honest amongst ourselves. We have to begin to affect a healing within our individual families. If there is beef within a family over someone in the family who is gay. We have to end that beef. You can bet that a lot of "no" votes came from that beef in one way or another. That beef is the distress of being torn, healing the beef than lead us all to be a little more whole.

Then we straight folks have to organise. We need to put OUR backs into it. Person-to-person, and neighbor-to-neighbor. (this is where I feel my gay brothers and sisters fumble the ball. Too much in-your-face not enough neighbor-to-neighbor. A balanced approach to framing the issue can win. Its the only way you are going to win in a red state.) That's one thing I notice in nearly every ballot measure in this issue. I see GLBT people in the frontline, but too many of us straight folks in the rear. Silent support is still silent consent of the status. It time for us straight folk to get a little loud, and even if we are torn. If we believe that innate fairness is right to the core of our being we will find our way through.

[eridani]

1. I'd go with the "Love thy neighbor as thyself" part n/t

[nichomachus]

2. Marriage is a civil contract -- and your faith has nothing to do with it

If your faith says you shouldn't marry a person of the same sex, by all means, don't do it.

But please keep your faith out of civil contracts. Your religious beliefs should not determine my tax status, my property rights, my inheritance rights, or anything else.

I won't come into your church and tell you how to pray. Please stay out of my civil rights.

Deal?

[LostinVA]

5. BINGO

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

9. Deal, accept for one little issue.

Your civil rights matter to me. We are the same side. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

I'm just giving a window into a side of equation that people don't talk about as readily is they talk about the extremes of the matter.

[nichomachus]

10. Thank you -- but you're mixing two issues that need to be separated

As long as we keep talking about civil marriage in religious terms, we're stuck with the problem.

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

13. I agree with you there as well

I believe that is the biggest crux of the problem, however that separation isn't on the playing field at this time. We have to play the game with the field conditions as they are every as we work to change those conditions.
To me the biggest issue is the secular side of the issue. The civil legal protections that we confer should be open to all.

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. Marriage is a cultural institution and the government has no business regulating it.

Civil unions are the only aspect of marriage where the government has any say. I would say "should have" but as a left libertarian person of faith, I strongly believe it is not the government's call. You can't and should not legislate whether common-law unions are marriage in the eyes of any church, lodge, association or government. You don't have the right to be recognized by the government as Christian, or Jewish, or atheist, or married. You do have the right to have your common-law union recognized AS SUCH, just as the vast majority of non-church-wedded households (or wedded in a ceremony not authorized and approved by some bureaucrat) on Earth should have the same rights as married people. It is not the government's business to tell me who is and is not formally wed.

[KittyWampus]

32. Marriage is also a sacred act. The word has two usages. If we all signed Civil Union Contracts

this whole thing wouldn't be an issue.

[SoonerPride]

41. Then gays would be decried as destroying marriage after all.

This tack only goes to stiffen opposition.

[rug]

3. What does God need with a starship?

Why does God need a law banning gay marriage?

[Lyric]

4. I just don't understand why anyone has to feel torn.

There is no conflict with your faith in regard to gay marriage, unless you are planning to marry another man yourself. So far as I understand it, *you* are not going to be called before God and judged for what other people did. You are accountable for your own actions, not anyone else's actions. Gay marriage doesn't affect your life, your faith, OR your salvation. So why the feelings of conflict? You aren't committing a sin by allowing other adults to make their own choices. It's not your job to force other people to walk the path you've chosen as "right." In fact, I think that sort of thing might be in direct conflict with God's will. He gave us free will for a reason--thwarting that by legislating away "sin" doesn't save souls, because there is no "choice" involved. No chance to earn grace.

I don't personally share your faith, but I used to, so I understand how it works. You can't treat adults like children, fencing them away from "sin" with laws and regulations. It doesn't save souls--it just violates God's gift of free will, and endangers salvation by taking away the opportunity to freely *choose* to obey the "rules" that God has set.

[arewenotdemo]

35. Not "torn" here.

Go ACLU!

[rosesaylavee]

6. Didn't Jesus say that Love your neighbor was THE most important commandment?

Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence that the Bible is a book of politically edited stories - not written from just one point of view either. If a devote Bible reader were to follow every single law proscribed in that book, they would not let their wives be free to move about the community and they would also not eat any bacon or shrimp. It would be very much like saying, I am going to live my life by everything that makes it to the Greatest Page here on DU.

At some point, a compassionate heart takes one over and says - what is right? What is the loving action to embrace here?

[flpoljunkie]

14. Jesus was also silent regarding sexual orientation, never condemning it.

[rosesaylavee]

39. As far as we know, he did speak on it but it was deleted

or not entered into the book by some less-than spiritual biblical editor. The Bible has had hundreds of editors and translators since the first century. Starting with the Levites right on down to that notorious King James group.

Why this is not part of Bible Studies, beats me. All I can think of is that those who are running the Bible studies are not so much interested in Truth but in continuing their agendas which support their harmful behaviors.

[No Elephants]

7. Does your faith really teach you to be against gay marriage, or only your pastor? The two are not

the same.

The bible does not require you to stop anyone from having a civil marriage ceremony. At the very most, it may prohbit YOU from having sex with a person of your own gender. As to other people, yes, you are to love them as yourself. And you are not to judge, or to look for the mote in your brother's eye until you are perfect. In other words, never. Isn't that what the bible and your faith really teach you? Your pastor is not God. Neither is your denomination.

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

12. Another fair point...One I've found on my own journey

Ultimately, my faith leads me to believe that is there is a wrong going on, we work to right it. Denial of equal rights is wrong. I'm looking towards how do we get to the day when we win.

[Ioo]

17. Faith was also used to justify enslavement of the African race... think about that

The bible does not say anything on the issue of gay marriage, in fact, if you find a bible from 100+ years ago, you would be even more shocked at how little it says.

The same "faith" was used to justify enslavement of the African race... that in and of itself should make you ask the question, such as "on this one, maybe I should go with my brain and not my heart"

[jacksonian]

8. i still think this is wrong

doesn't matter in-your-face or neighbor-to-neighbor - you don't get minority rights by pressing hands and then getting out the vote.

The popular vote/legislative largess method is the problem. These sham take-away-rights proposals shouldn't even be on ballots, and should be boycotted when they do. Save the money. The other side makes these appeals to base emotions while the GLBT community tires to walk the narrow line of appealing to reason while not insulting other people's religions. It's a fundamentally bad political argument.

Legislatures are for policy. Courts are for justice. Stop participating in their game.

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

15. I disagree

"you don't get minority rights by pressing hands and then getting out the vote."
Of course not. You agitate. You march. You organise, but ultimately you have to take the fight to where the power is as win it, and keep winning it. If that means winning these "sham" elections then so be it. We do it.

"These sham take-away-rights proposals shouldn't even be on ballots, and should be boycotted when they do."

Even if the other team grows the grass higher to negate my speed advantage, I still have to play the game.
We can boycott, boycott, but ultimately that means they have these binding referendums and we lose. If the ballot box is the field of play, we have to win the game.

One good start is to challenge the question before it gets on the ballot. Make the question clear and make it clear what each answer means. That is the common tactic of our adversary. The Orwellian Language Hustle, and they do it too well.

[jacksonian]

19. no

One good start is to challenge the question before it gets on the ballot.

in other words, you're looking for a democratic way to avoid democracy.

Rallying in streets is a good thing if there is no other alternative. But demanding minority mobs will not sway electoral processes in their favor. Don't go begging bigots to give you rights, it's a loser.

Grow your own grass. Courts are for justice - who did the right thing in Cal, the court or the ballot? What can be voted in can be voted away and that's not what a right is.

[Ozma]

11. Does your faith and religion teach you

Not to eat bacon and cheese, (milk products) at the same meal? To stone the daughter who strays? To eat fish on Friday?
Why have there never been initiative petitions and propositions in California on any of THOSE issues? Well, the answer is simple, that would be STUPID, ridiculous, and allowing the state to favor one religion over another. Same with Prop 8.

[WhollyHeretic]

16. I am not torn in the least. I want equality for all

I cried Wednesday morning seeing the results of all the bigotry across the country. I will stand up with the GLBT community to achieve equality for everyone. Your religion should have nothing to do with our laws.

[IndianaJones]

18. doesn't the same faith condone slavery? nt.

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. I dunno, what is the DLC position on this issue? n/t

[IndianaJones]

22. I think the official position mentions Joe Momma. nt.

[Skidmore]

23. Speaking as someone who was raised in a fundamentalist church,

Christians need to acknowledge that their dogmas are not unadulterated and that the Bible is a collection of writings which have been manipulated over thousands of years to accommodate the political needs of the times. Personally, I have no use for organized religion. I do have a streak of spirituality though. To this end, I will share with you a note I recently sent to a dear friend whose son is gay and who has been struggling within her particular religious tradition and the prejudices of some in the congregation.

I wish I could make things better for you in regard to _____ and the attitudes of the church and society right now. Social change occurs slowly, much slower than technological change. Witness the advancements in the way we accomplish our daily tasks in just our own lifetimes. For example, we now have a choice to use a washer and dryer over the old wringer-washer and the clothesline or use the computer and the web instead of the telegraph or snail mail. However, some of our cultural beliefs are still firmly rooted in a time when a child’s paternity could not be established and producing huge families contributed to the success of the clan. Ensuring paternity and the survival of the children produced led to notions of marriage we have in Christian societies. The world did not always hold these notions of marriage or sexuality we find in our modern world. Examples may be found of older cultures which were more tolerant of sexual preference. There were cultures too which had not tolerance for homosexuality as well. We see this still in today’s world. Thailand and India are examples of cultures in which homosexuals are allotted certain niches in society and allowed to live without fear of harm.

You and I have spoken about the filters through which the current versions of the Bible and teachings from came to be. Those writings and interpretations came from imperfect vessels—other humans—claiming to have an equally perfect knowledge of the mind of God. One of the salient characteristics of God is that he is the Great Unknown and there is much yet in this universe we inhabit that is unknown. There are very real pearls of insight into human nature and the nature of God that are to be found in the Bible along with the political and cultural tweaks that have been added to it through out history to lend legitimacy to the decisions nations have made. One of those insights is that “man is created in the image of God”—some would even posit that God is a manifestation of human understanding. God, as Creator, made us all and we each have a purpose. The human species, by virtue of the way we were created, is capable of as many permutations, visible and invisible, as the DNA we were gifted and the soul sent to fill it.

Another tenet of faith is that God is inerrant and omnipotent—he is perfect and all-powerful. ______, this son you birthed and raised is the child God gave you, one created in his image to serve his purpose. The people at Bible Study are seeing “through a glass darkly. There is an Indian fable about six blind men and an elephant that is really applicable here and I found a copy on the web for you to read (http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/csl03/blindmen.html ). Not one of those people really knows the mind of God, any more than you or I do. We all see imperfectly and religions give us are a consensus of what the culture deems “moral” at this point in history and those sensibilities change over eras. That you and _______ support and did not forsake your son says much about you and your values as a Christian—people who indeed follow the teachings of Christ, not the imperfect vessels who sought to explain his teachings later. That same Christ taught us simply to love one another as God loves us—unconditionally, without judgment. I see this in your family. Your lives and the way you live them are the greatest testament you can give your church group. Look inward because I trust you recognize truth when you see it. Truth has a clarion ring to it—it is pure and without interference when you hear it and clear and without distortion when you see it. You know it in your heart. Love your son and others as God loves you and let others see in that act the lessons of humility and love that God places in front of them.

[Terran]

24. May I suggest examining your faith more closely?

Gay people, like everyone else, are a part of Creation. Are we not entitled to the same human dignity that God grants to everyone else?

[cboy4]

25. I'm sure they said the same thing during the civil rights era ..

"you colored people are 'too much in-your-face and not enough neighbor-to-neighbor.'"

You know that, right?

But look what it accomplished, among other much more important things:

Barack Obama, President of the United States.

[JackBeck]

27. Passages from the Bible were used by plantation owners to support their right to own slaves.

How this gets lost on a person of color is beyond me.

[IndianaJones]

28. religion used to justify banning interracial marriage as well. nt.

[JackBeck]

29. Religion used against couples of discordant faiths from marrying.n/t

[IndianaJones]

30. straight talk on interracial marriage. straight talk on slavery. nt.

[JackBeck]

34. LOL. nt

[always_saturday]

26. Why can't you think for yourself instead of using "faith" as a crutch?

Sorry if I sound harsh.

But "faith" is THE most destructive force on the planet.

[marimour]

31. i respect your right to believe that but thats why the 2 sides will remain polarized

You have people saying to people "the most important part of your life, your faith, is dumb and i don't believe in it but give me what I believe in RIGHT NOW". I think most religious people would be open to these things if they were approached in a better way instead of the if you don't see it my way you're a bigot way that people on the board seem to prefer. This isn't directed at you but just at the board in general.

[H2O Man]

33. Where?

[Cults4Bush]

38. :)

Your shortest post ever?

[Left Is Write]

36. "We straight folks need to acknowledge being torn."

Some of us straight folks aren't torn at all.

Gay marriage threatens neither my marriage nor anything in my faith.

[dkofos]

37. If your faith would deny ANYONE equality, you need to look at your faith.

[SoonerPride]

40. The insidious way "religion" has been replaced by "faith" makes me sick

Because we all know there's no separation of faith & state.

Do not confuse the words.

Your religious doctrine imposes its will on others for what purpose again?

[BuyingThyme]

42. What a horrible struggle.