Prop 8: Instead of mapping the race of the voters, map their religion vs. lack thereof.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Your causal relation is there. And nowhere else.

The instinct to shy away from any line of reasoning when it starts to approach the conclusion "RELIGION IS BULLSHIT" is having a very nasty side effect: blaming blacks. That is NOT admissible.

Place blame where blame belongs. EDIT: to be more specific, direct your rage at the leaders of the churches, instead of poor Joe Q. Brainwashed Sheep.

[SoonerPride]

1. We need to eliminate tax breaks for hate groups masquerading as churches

IMHO

[asthmaticeog]

2. Kicked for truth.

:thumbsup:

[Fran Kubelik]

3. I blame the religious leaders who use the money and power they have

...to go directly against the teachings of Christ. I can't understand how that can be ok.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. I'd say your post fine-tunes my OP. In fact, I'll edit it now. -nt

[Fran Kubelik]

25. Awesome except

...as a person of faith I'd rather not be called a sheep. ;)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. So it's OK if I call you Joe? -nt

[Fran Kubelik]

28. Joe the Sheeple?

Joe the religious lesbian?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Excellent band name.

Joe and the Religious Lesbians.

[blondeatlast]

4. Amen!

(Pardon me.)

[jonnyblitz]

5. ALL bigots need to be called out. If the data shows that a huge

chunk of people voting "Yes on 8" were minorities and/or Obama supporters , THIS needs to be acknowledged and discussed and not pushed under the rug. How do we figure out solutions otherwise. Nobody is blaming ALL by pointing FACTS out. You people who insist we avoid discussing the info that is before us are NOT helpful and you are PISSING me off. To imply we point out ONE group of bigots and not another makes no fucking sense. Bigotry is WRONG no matter WHAT group it comes from and should be called out and nipped in the bud and NOT excused because of the person's race or religion. this isn't fucking rocket science.

[Leopolds Ghost]

6. It is bigotry to call people out for their race or religion. You & OP are being bigoted by definitio

Have a nice life derailing the progressive movement by trying to split it up. I don't see you guys protesting the demolition of low-income housing in New Orleans, or Obama's support for FISA. Your priorities, and the priorities of anyone who is a one-issue voter who attacks other people who are not like them, are fucked up.

[BurtWorm]

12. Religion is relevant here, because, unlike race, religion is all about ideology.

This vote was based on ideology. Ergo, it is absolutely on the money to look at the way religion may have contributed to the outcome. Whereas race is absolutely irrelevant.

[Leopolds Ghost]

15. It is bigoted to say all religious people think alike, or that members of a group are responsible

For what the majority thinks.

Religious people feel that marriage is a cultural/religious institution because it is. The state has no business saying who is or is not married. State law should be predicated on common-law households only.

This notion that we need to redefine marriage or broaden its scope is like Christians saying they have the right to call themselves Jews.

A trumped-up political cause that does not exist because thankfully, outside of Israel, the STATE has no business regulating and tracking who is or is not Christion vs. Jewish.

It is a distraction from the fight for civil unions that a majority of Californians and USAns support.

Like the people who kill public transit projects because of the impact tunneling would have on the environment. A REGULAR occurrence in every blue enclave that has ever voted for transit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. I did not say religious people think alike. I did not say members of a group are responsible.

(Unless they voted yes, ça va sans dire.)

See my edit, which I made BEFORE you typed this post I'm replying to.

[BurtWorm]

35. You seem to be arguing that all religious people think alike--about marriage.

My point is that whatever made so mamy black voters in California support proposition 8, it was not race. I don't know for a fact that religion was behind it, but it's a likely suspect, isn't it?

As for your points about redefining marriage, where is it written that marriage is inherently a religious concept? I don't buy that it is. Marriage is a social and economic phenomenon more than a religious one. Isn't it? As such, doesn't the state have an interest in definining it? Otherwise, how does it know how to tax, for example. Or divide property on death. Those are political issues, not religious ones.

Religion misleads people on this question. It asserts a false primacy where it has no business or interest in asserting one. The religious are trying to foist their false notions about what marriage is or should be on the state.

[onefreespiritedchick]

46. Well said! n/t

[donco6]

22. So just go away and be happy, you silly gay people!

It was only one little issue, after all.

[BurtWorm]

8. Nonsense. The question is what caused this group to vote the way they did.

Was it their race? Highly unlikely. Much more likely that it was their religion. It's a red herring in this case to talk about the race of the voters. It contributes to racism, in fact, to talk about the race of the voters, as though there is something inherent in blackness that made this group vote that way. You don't think these voters voted in support of Prop 8 *because* they were black, do you?

[Dogtown]

23. Honed up that new wedge?

That bullshit is the newest "RW Meme". And you're pushing it.

We need to resist this bullshit balkanization, and look to the actual blocs intent on oppressing our gay brothers and sisters.

The OP has it right. We need to defund the churches politicking from the pulpit.

We need to end their exemptions from taxing.

We need to end the 'faith-based' privatizing of our social services to organizations with agendas of hate and bias. The attacks on homosexual rights are funded by religious groups, not groups of black people. Those black people of faith that voted to oppress gays have been tricked by their hate-filled pastors, acting in concert with the white fundamentalists intent on disenfranchising another minority.

The far right is trying to splinter us; they fear our solidarity.

[Goblinmonger]

56. Amen

I am tired of hearing that we need to shut up about things because X is coming and then when X comes, we need to wait for Y. We won this. We won this big. No better time to call bullshit on those that need to be called out.

[Goblinmonger]

55. Oh, Please

I am sick of the kid gloves we need to use around the religious. THEY pushed this. THEY gave the most money to passing it. That isn't bigotry; it's fact.

[thewiseguy]

59. WTF is your problem? You are blaming Obama for this?

Huge chunk of people voted for the amendment were Obama supporters? I fail to see what this has to do with Obama.

[BurtWorm]

7. Right on the money, Dirtbag!

:applause:

Recommended.

PS: It's shocking how few people even on the left get this. They're ready to make it about race. It's the default position in American politics! :eyes:

[PassingFair]

10. Tax 'em.

It's long overdue.

[No Elephants]

11. IMO, the real divider is the degree to which you believe secular law must reflect the particular

interpretation of the bible that you hold. It is not about skin color or religion, but about theocracy--and only one very particular form of it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. That is an accurate measurement. But bear with me...

"The degree to which you believe secular law must reflect the particular interpretation of the Bible that you hold."

I maintain that religious people in which that variable does not reach harmful levels are that way because they are LESS religious. The nasty ones are nasty because they're MORE religious.

[No Elephants]

16. I literally pray almost all day long. I am very pro gay marriage. I am VERY pro separation of

church and state. So, my own experience does not allow me to agree with you. And, I hate to use the old cliche, but it depends on your definition of "religious." Am I less religious bc I don't believe every single spin my pastor puts on the Bible? I don't think so. Am I less religious bc I try to live and let live? To the contrary. Jesus never forced anything on anyone, nor does that bible say anyone else should. etc.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. You know why you are pro gay marriage?

Because you looked at what the dogma/holy book/sermon/whatever has to say about that subject and used YOUR judgment to decide it was WRONG. Therefore making you a wee bit less religion than the person who concludes, "well, if it's in the Bible, it must be true!"

[Dogtown]

24. No one here is attacking "religion"

We're attacking a specific group of cynical clergymen hiding their bigotry behind their clerical robes.

Those trying to make this seem a 'race' issue are lying and muddying the waters to allow the true archetics of Prop 8 to obscure their misdeeds and continue their war against our brothers and sisters.

[BurtWorm]

14. KIck.

This needs to stay on top of this forum until people start to get this point through their heads.

[JohnMcCant2008]

18. You hit the nail on the head!! ALL churches belong OUT OF GOVERNMENT - period.

[kennetha]

19. you have to face facts

The democratic coalition of blacks, hispanics, working class whites, upper income professionals and professors is not at all united on social issues like gay marriage. MANY democratic constituencies -- fundamentalist blacks and catholic hispanics, for example -- are very socially conservative and religiously intolerant. My dear old father a good union guy, good democrat for all his life is deeply religious and intensely homophobic. Hasn't voted republican ever. And I doubt that social issues could drive him away from the democratic party. But they certainly aren't any part of the reason he counts himself as a democrat tried and true.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. Yeah. It may be kind of like "losing the South forever" in the 60s as LBJ said.

But society does not advance until some leader takes the plunge.

[blondeatlast]

30. Interesting point--there's many, many like your father in my very yellow dog family.

That's why the referenda process needs to be discussed at length. It's a necessary evil (don't I, as an Arizonan, know it) but it's been exploited by the RW as a sneaky, smarmy, vile GOTV tool. It's way cheaper than doorknocking and much, much easier to organize--and it works.

The RW wasn't anticipating a crappy economy to get in the way. On the social front, they succeeded for the most part but it didn't buy them the prize.

This election bears LOTS of study. While Obama's campaign was nearly flawless, IMHO, there were many other factors at play here including the failure of some tried-and-formerly-true RW tactics, of which the referenda process is one of the nastiest.

[Dogtown]

27. Excellent presentation, CPD

You have unmasked the real offenders.



Please, DUers, do NOT let this ridiculous slander against our black members stand. It's a RW attempt to fracture the machine that defeated them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. "There" - yes; "Nowhere else" - no.

Religion correlates strongly with homophobia. That doesn't mean that race doesn't correlate with homophobia.

Some religion causes homophobia. Race clearly doesn't cause homophobia, but some cultures do, and black American culture is one of the worse offenders.

"Directing rage" isn't really important, although I don't think your "they're brainwashed" excuse cuts it as a reason not to blame people.

"Directing campaigning" and "directing arguments" are far more important, and for those the people you want to aim them at are very definately the man and woman in the street, not the leaders of churches.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. Wow. Just wow.

"Race clearly doesn't cause homophobia, but some cultures do, and black American culture is one of the worse offenders."

I have no words. I'll just point at that sentence and say, "Donald Ian Rankin said that." And let people come to their own conclusions.

Again: Wow. Just wow.

[BurtWorm]

40. "black American culture is one of the worse offenders."

Hmmm...

[Jokerman]

33. K & R

[BlooInBloo]

34. Pfft. If we can't blame black folks, then it's no fun.

[Raineyb]

50. It would appear so.

Nice to see you popping in Bloo I've been looking forward to your pithy remarks.

Regards

[stillcool]

36. I've been thinking about this..

I was incensed that so many were calling out the black race for the passing of Prop 8, but I was looking at it the wrong way. The anger is not because of the pass/fail, the anger is that there are so many in one demographic that would choose to treat a gay person as a second class citizen. I think the anger is justified and reactionary, and I hope that as this fight moves forward that all people will be forced to examine not their view on gay marriage, but their view of human beings. Banning civil, human rights should never be on any ballot. I hope that the harm caused to so many by this attempt to legislate prejudice will in the end force minds like mine to open up a little bit more and try to understand what being gay in our society means.

[BurtWorm]

37. You're not going to reach anybody by arguing, "You're black. You should think this way."

Which is essentially what a lot of people seem to be saying here. Race is irrelevant to this question. This is all about ideology, not anatomy or biology.

[stillcool]

44. yeah...I know..

but at this point I don't think it's about winning people over. I think it's about anger and hurt. I imagine if I woke up tomorrow and found that in my state a large portion of a demographic voted to take my rights away I would be pissed. If they were the one group of people that I thought would understand my plight better than anyone else, I think that would make the anger and hurt all the more potent.

[BurtWorm]

47. That's all the more reason to be careful about the reasons for this vote.

To pin it on race is easy, because racism is easy. It doesn't require a damn bit of thought. At all.

[EffieBlack]

80. A majority of white women voted to eliminate Affirmative Action in Michigan two years ago

And made the difference in that contest. I was very disappointed but I didn't blame all white women or insist that white women were anti-civil rights.

But it is interesting to me that the media hardly mentioned this fact nor did I hear or see any great outrage on the internets about it.

Go figure.

[stillcool]

84. I'm done with the whipping post..

I don't live in California. I understand that the passing of Prop 8 has brought all of this up to the surface, and that has to be a good thing, but I've taken in all the anger and rage against faceless nameless black people I can deal with. Maybe I'll join in again when some other demographic is targeted.

[Hamlette]

38. so are you saying blacks are more religious than whites? Is there any proof of that?

While I agree religion is the problem, it doesn't explain the race question here.

Unless there is evidence that 75% of blacks are religious while less than half of whites are (% who voted for prop 2)

[BurtWorm]

39. So you think race is more relevant than religious belief?

You're more comfortable with that hypothesis? What is it about blackness that makes so many people who are black amti-gay marriage, do you think?

[Hamlette]

42. stop it. where did I say it was inherent in the color of the skin, it is cultural. duh.

it might have some thing to do with the Mud Sill theory which is what kept black down for so long, white needed to feel superior to someone.

All I'm saying is the numbers do not support your theory. If you want to change things, you have to look at all the facts and not be blinded by your political correctness.

[BurtWorm]

45. Where on earth is your evidence that black people need to feel superior to someone

and that's why they voted for prop 8? Why isn't that argument racist? Aren't you basically saying that being black is what made this group vote for proposition 8? That it was in their interest as black people to vote against gay marriage? Where is the evidence of that?

[Hamlette]

88. Mud Sill has been around for some time, its only a theory, I only suggested it as a theory

it was advanced against whites who suppressed blacks.

I frankly have no idea why it is but denying it is not helpful

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4399114&mesg_id=4399114

[grantcart]

41. exactly on point

[amyrose2712]

43. Personally, I think the Institution of Marriage should be abolished ...

in conjunction with the state. I do for the most part, agree with the OP. I am usually the first to condemn religion, but, just a thought. Wouldn't many of the people that are being denied this right, also consider themselves religious?

[Starry Messenger]

48. k & effing r n/t

[Raineyb]

49. K&R

This is one of the better posts I've seen about the Prop 8 results.

Regards

[onefreespiritedchick]

51. K& R

[BurtWorm]

52. This thread should be read in concert with another in this forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7818504&mesg_id=7818504

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. Wow! It's almost as if I created a sockpuppet to help make my point.

But I didn't.

"Torn." Yeah. To be a bigot or not to be a bigot. What a dilemma. What to choose? :sarcasm:

[krabigirl]

54. Or the types of churches. Unitarian churches, for example, actually marry gays and lesbians.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Oh yes. THOSE guys get props from me, no question about it.

Some Catholic factions, too.

[TexasObserver]

57. yank their tax exempt status when they ply bigotry

Take down a bunch of big churches and eliminate their tax exempt status, and see how quickly the others stop pushing anti gay measures.

[SweetieD]

60. Religion is a HUGE factor in this debate whether people want to admit it or not.

Believe it or not most people in the US are not the liberal progressives you find on this board. They do not consider gay marraige a civil rights issue. They consider it an affront to community standards, and an encroachment on their religious rights. You can scream bigotry all you want but that cry is not getting many gay marraige bans shot down around the country. I belong to a large non-political related forum of mostly women from all walks of life(white, black, hispanic, different ages) (ok its a diet board lol), there was a poll regarding gay marraige and whether or not it should be allowed. The poll reflected the numbers you see in most propositions, about 60% of the people on the board said they did not approve of gay marraige. The reasons given were mostly "God/the Bible says gay marraige is wrong" "Gay marraige will lead to incestuous marraiges or polygamous marraiges" "My kids will think being gay is acceptable when God says it isn't". Basically these are all religious arguments, that are being reinforced by pastors of all denominations, not just mormon, or even christian. I do think gay marraige will be a reality one day, as children get older, attitudes change about religion, and the electorate realize it is not going to be the downfall of society.

[Gregorian]

61. It's even more generic than that. It's not about religion.

This is about lying. Not about religion or gays.

Bush lied us into a war. Same thing. And you could say religion had a place in that as well. But it's about public lying.

If someone shouts that someone has a gun, and someone else shouts that they actually don't have a gun, people will still run.

It's time to do something about lying over public communications.

edit- while still keeping a First Amendment.

[Deep13]

66. People voted for Bush because they thought god wanted it.

People believe him because the Epistle to the Romans says to obey our rulers. They were anxious to believe the WMD stories because it was a chance to win over Islam for Jesus.

How many people would have supported Republicans if they did not believe that zygotes have a soul or that homosexuality was a perversion of god's design?

The problem is not the lies. It's that many of us believe them.

[Gregorian]

71. That only explains a small fraction. The base.

If that were the case, prop 8 would not have passed. This was a majority of Californians.

[Deep13]

78. Even if the average person is not a foaming-at-the-mouth Fundy...

...that person still has basic assumptions about life and society that are based in religious up-bringing and belief. One of those is that the purpose of family life is the production of children. Another is that marriage is a sacred rather than a social institution.

There are misconceptions about homosexuals that would probably exist without religion, but for now it is the churches that are the main barrier to progress. It is our acceptance of religion as somehow deserving of deference and the assumption that it is somehow uniquely qualified to comment on matters of ethics and morality that allow plainly bigoted views to be taken as legitimate in polite society.

[Gregorian]

87. Unfortunately I think that's true.

I say unfortunately because with nearly seven billion people on the planet, that purpose is quickly becoming outdated. Haha.

Oh dear. I'm so sacrilegious.

[HEyHEY]

62. Testify!

[LisaM]

63. How could anyone vote for Obama and yet support Proposition 8?

I'm sorry, but I find the disconnect to be huge. I don't care what race or religion the voter is. It makes ZERO sense to me. Why did they vote for Obama then? Because he has cute kids? Because he's going to buy a puppy?

Just count me in as one of those people who don't get it. It frustrates me.

[Goblinmonger]

73. Because he, too, said

he was not in favor of gay marriage? Just sayin.

[Deep13]

64. It is the universal desire of religions to control family and sex lives of people.

The reason Prop8 and the others passed is because people believe being gay is immoral based on a bronze-age book of mythology. The Bible, including the NT, specifically states that homosexuality is evil. It is only because of the irrational acceptance of it that there even are social conservatives. There would be no Republican party as it now exists if people were not more afraid of offending god than they are of real problems in this country.

We no longer have the luxury of pretending that irrational beliefs are off-limits for criticism because they are religious. While a person has a legal right to believe what he or she wants, that person has no right to be free from criticism in his or her choice to believe the irrational, illogical and impossible.

And for liberal believers who insist that Christianity is about love and acceptance and not about exclusion: there is a reason why that is a minority view. There is no Biblical, logical or historical basis for accepting some parts of Christianity while rejecting others. What you are really doing is picking the parts that agree with your humanitarian values and arbitrarily disregarding the rest. Suggesting that evil men have twisted Christianity for their own desires only underscores the point. That's what religion does. That is its purpose: controlling others.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. That would involve the same logical fallacy involved in racial scapegoating.

[Deep13]

67. I don't think so.

That the most religious of Americans also are the most conservative of voters is well documented.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. Yes, there's a correlation.

And people are using the same sort of correlation to scapegoat black people as homophobes.

[Deep13]

76. Race does not control a person's actions.

Beliefs do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. People use the same argument...

when they claim Jews are filthy money-lenders.

[Deep13]

82. People? You mean Christians.

It's part of the Jewish blood libel. It's odd that you use another injustice based on Christian irrationality to justify tolerance of irrational injustice.

Anyway, am I right or wrong? Does the opposition to gay marriage come from religion or does it not?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. Actually, there are a number of non-Christians with similar views.

Which works to my point of religion having nothing to do with it.

"Does the opposition to gay marriage come from religion or does it not?"

No. The Soviet Union, for example, sent many homosexuals to the labor camps.

[arKansasJHawk]

90. Does the opposition to gay marriage in AMERICA come from religion?

Yes, it does.

What the Soviet Union did or didn't do, and whether an ideology that replaces faith in God with faith in the Party is actually a religion anyway, are immaterial to the question at hand.

Proposition 8 was funded by religious groups, preached about and supported in churches, and completely and utterly driven by religious belief. Period.

There were no communists in California voting for Prop. 8. There were no Nazis. Just Christians.

[Goblinmonger]

74. So the fact that the Mormons

put some of the biggest sums of money into an effort to pass this Prop means nothing, then?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Some mormons put up money.

Some black people voted for the proposition.

Blaming the whole for the actions of some is bigotry.

[Goblinmonger]

79. Difference between the two

is that the Mormon church/hierarchy contributed millions. Blacks are not blacks because they are members of an organization. To say that a group which is not a group due to self-selection ALL think a certain way, is bigtory. To say that an organization believes X is NOT bigotry if it is a correct statement of that organization's beliefs. Is it bigotry to say that all Catholics believe in transubstantiation? 'Cause if they don't, they are in direct opposition to the dogma of the organization.

So, the Mormon church strongly supported Prop 8. So did other religions. I, and the OP, place the blame for it's passage on the religions.

[spoony]

69. So we should stop blaming people who voted for prop 8

And start blaming general, ambiguous notions like "religion"--as if all religion is the same.

Oh, and by the way that ALSO runs into racial prejudice because you're ASSUMING that black churches teach differently from white ones.

There is so precious little logic present on this site since the election.

[Goblinmonger]

72. Look in the mirror for "precious little logic"

The OP is NOT saying that it is just the black religion that caused Prop 8 to pass. Instead, it is saying that it is NOT blacks that are to blame, but religion in general. The Mormons put a huge amount of money into passing this Prop and they are historically NOT black.

But build you little strawmen and feel happy with yourself.

[Bubbha Jo]

85. Silver Lining

A lot of Americans don't pay much attention to the gay marriage issue, as they don't for a lot of stuff that don't personally affect them.

However, loss of rights once had is an issue! If it happens to one, it could happen to them.
We'll see a lot more people getting involved due to this vote.

I'm betting this temporary loss at the moment will get faster nationwide rights.

[Quantess]

70. Good point. (eom)

[elkston]

77. Agree. For the last F*UCKING time. Homosexuality is NOT discussed in the black church

...for the most part.

The resistance is cultural. Like many Latinos, black males are expected to be macho and stand tall. This is where the resistence to homosexuality stems from.
(In that there is the perception it means you are "soft" and a "sissy").

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. Church attendance is the big problem: here are the exit poll numbers

Vote By Church Attendance
                   Yes  No
Weekly (32%)       84%  16%
	
Occasionally (44%) 46%  54%

Never (21%)        17%  83%

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=CAI01p2

So, 32% of voters attend church at least weekly; they voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8. 44% attend occasionally; they voted 'no' by a narrow margin. Those who never attend voted overwhelmingly against.

As noted, there are some churches who support equal gay rights; but they are unfortunately the minority. It looks like the influence of preachers and sermons that is the problem.

[undeterred]

89. Earth to CPD: Atheists can be just as bigoted as religious people.

They may be bigoted about different things and have a different logic behind their bigotry. It aint any prettier, though.

Bigotry stinks, no matter whose it is.

[fudge stripe cookays]

91. Prove me wrong when I meet you...

and I have no problem with your religion.

I'm just sick of hypocrites. And I have met very few "Christians" who don't fit that description. I'm not applying that to anyone here. But most of the people I meet wouldn't know Jesus if he came up and bit them.

I'd rather not call myself anything. That way there are no preconceptions about me. I just live by the golden rule, and wish everyone else would too.

[EstimatedProphet]

92. I definitely believe fault rests with the eladers of some churches

Not ALL churches, of course, but scum churches like Hagee's church. What he's done isn't Christianity, it's Satanism. He's taken God's word and corrupted it to serve Satan.